PDA

View Full Version : Dancing Politics



Twirlie Bird
13th-June-2007, 02:50 AM
I love dancing. :awe: I have always wanted to dance and now I actually can and the highs it gives me are out of this world. I can dance with my husband and that is magical. :awe: Something I never thought I would be able to do.


What I want to know though is why is dancing so damn complicated?


I don't meant the moves. I mean the politics. :mad: Why is it not just possible to go and dance and have fun? :( I'm not going into any details as this is not the right time or the right place. I'm sure there is a lot of political cr@p going on for lots of us. It sucks. :tears:

For me it's taking the fun out of dancing and this is heartbreaking. :( I have just spent the last three hours trying to make sense of it. :confused: Trying to decide how important dancing is to me. Considering just throwing the towel in. :mad: Scrapping Twirlie Bird and giving up dancing altogether. :(

Failing to make any sense of it I am now writing this. I don't really know why I am writing this. :confused: Maybe I just want to know that I'm not the only one experiencing political sh1t that's crippling my dancing and zapping all of the fun. I'm not asking for details. I'm not interested in naming names, telling tales and spreading rumours. :angry:

I see some fabulous dancers that turn up at events, are well respected and 'seem' to be neutral. They don't seem to get dragged down by all the nonsense. How is that achieved? Somebody please let me into the secret. I know it's not because I am on this forum. Some of the 'respected neutral people' are also forumites. This is the purpose of this post. Please don't let it get sidetracked with personal attacks. This is a genuine question. How can I be neutral so that other people's issues don't effect my enjoyment of dancing. :confused:

OK I'm off to bed. I will probably regret this post in the morning. Mods expect an email from me. :sick:

Jamie
13th-June-2007, 03:22 AM
Simple answer? Don't get involved with anyone on a level thats more than a "are we dancing then?" kinda thing. I have a few friends who are worth more than that obviously, but it's best not to get too involved in other peoples business, or indeed businesses.

I'm not saying that this is what you do honey, just this is how I get around politics.

On the job side of things, as you know I've just passed my CTA audition and am going to become a Ceroc Teacher within the next month or so, I have explained to anyone who has asked me, that I am not falling out with anyone or any business just because I'm going to be a Ceroc teacher, I have free will and should I want to go dancing somewhere, then I shall go, the good thing is no one is asking me to restrict where I dance.

I like to be friends with everyone and I hope that shows. I dance because I love to dance, I go wherever I choose because that's me, I'm a free spirit and I'm thankful when people understand that.

I suppose you need to think back (albeit not that long ago) as to why you started dancing and like you said, you enjoy dancing with your husband and you enjoy dancing in itself, don't let petty arguments spoil your pleasure. If you are unwelcome at a venue, then choose another.

I was asked by someone quite recently why I "have lots of friends yet don't seem close to any of them" and the above is exactly that reason, the friends I have in dancing are just that, dancing friends, we share a common interest. We might be completely different people, but for one moment we connect on the dance floor and nothing else matters but the dance.

If you feel everythings getting to you at the minute and feel like you don't want to go dancing, then I'd suggest doing just that, take a couple of weeks away from the dancing environments to truly decide what you want to do.

Hope that helps. :love:

bigdjiver
13th-June-2007, 03:29 AM
...
What I want to know though is why is dancing so damn complicated?



I don't meant the moves. I mean the politics. :mad: Why is it not just possible to go and dance and have fun? :( I'm not going into any details as this is not the right time or the right place. I'm sure there is a lot of political cr@p going on for lots of us. It sucks. :tears:


For me it's taking the fun out of dancing and this is heartbreaking. :( I have just spent the last three hours trying to make sense of it. :confused: Trying to decide how important dancing is to me. Considering just throwing the towel in. :mad: Scrapping Twirlie Bird and giving up dancing altogether. :( ...


I see some fabulous dancers that turn up at events, are well respected and 'seem' to be neutral. They don't seem to get dragged down by all the nonsense. How is that achieved? Somebody please let me into the secret. I know it's not because I am on this forum. Some of the 'respected neutral people' are also forumites. This is the purpose of this post. Please don't let it get sidetracked with personal attacks. This is a genuine question. How can I be neutral so that other people's issues don't effect my enjoyment of dancing. :confused: ...You don't meet the other people who have been turned off by all that stuff because they don't come any more. I was lucky in that I had another, more favoured venue to go to. FWIW my opressor no longer has his venue. I take no glee in that, I would rather have another night easily available. .

I hope it works out better for you. :flower:

Gus
13th-June-2007, 07:20 AM
THERE ARE NO POLITICS ... Just try to believe that and you will be fine. Ignore all the rumours and cr@p. No punter should have to become involbved, and they shouldn't be aware of what really is going on beneath the surface .... as long as you don't make the mistake of trying to get involved in the dance business. another good reason for not getting involved is that you may also find out people are rarely what they seem and you may get very disillusioned.:(

Caz
13th-June-2007, 07:27 AM
Hi babe.. I know exactly what u mean about the politics of the dancing world. it is completely rubbish that some of us can't just come and dance for dancing sakes and that the politics of it all get in the way. Listen to Jamie's advice.. take a couple of nights off.. i didn't go last night to my local venue, because of recent events, politics etc, it isn't the same anymore, i ended up thinking do i really want to go tonight and the answer was no so i stayed in. it is hard to overcome the politics when u become involved, all i can advise is try to keep out of it and if u do become involved try not to take sides and remain neutral. i know it is hard babe.. u r a strong person.. u will come thru it :hug:

Lynn
13th-June-2007, 08:10 AM
I hate it too and its the main reason why I restrict my involvement in any dancing organisation. I first ran into it when I started organising little small, social dancing evenings with the occasional workshop - all completely not for profit and purely for the joy of dancing for myself and fellow dancers. I encountered jealousy and suspicion from others.

Its not restricted to MJ and from what I have observed its a combination of some of the personalities that dancing attracts, and the desire to make money.

Wanting to share the joy of dancing and not worried about making a profit does not mean you can stay 'neutral', no matter how much you want to.

I've seen its effects on dance scenes locally (not MJ) and its the reason why I have opted to not take a role on a dance committee formed just last month (again, not MJ).

I understand that it exists, but the effect it has on my choices makes me angry so I'm not going to say anything more.

Andy McGregor
13th-June-2007, 08:48 AM
The thing about what is being called dancing politics is that they are for organisers, teachers, DJs, taxi dancers, demonstrators, etc. If you are just a dancer who turns up to their local venue and pays their £6, £7 or £8(!) you do not need to get involved. Once you stop being a paying customer you have crossed the line and entered the commercial side of MJ.

And the commercial side of MJ is riddled with activities some people will call "politics". My own opinion is that the activities within an organisation can be politics, but the activities between organisations are commercial pressures. Being told "if you DJ for Rocsters you will not be invited to DJ for Ceroc" is a commercial decision: it is not really politics.

My advice, if you find the commercial pressures get to you, is to stay out of the commercial side of MJ. That means you should turn down invitations to demontrate, taxi, teach, etc, etc. To accept those invitations is to join the commercial side of MJ and, like it or not, be put under commercial pressure.

Billi Wiz
13th-June-2007, 08:50 AM
Hi there

I'd just like to add that I've encountered a level of Pettiness around CEROC/MJ that does not seem to infest other Dance forms in my area.. e.g. Salsa./Tango etc..

In other forms of dancing Teachers attend each others Dance classes/Freestyles and sometimes (Shock/Horror!!) :really: even do guest classes for others???

Compare this with the fact that I know certain folk have been barred from CEROC/MJ for setting up a class/workshops perceived as a Rival...

I think some people regard themselves more as Tony Soparano than as part of any Dance Community... Suppose we should be lucky no-one got whacked yet!!!

To a Neutral like myself it's incomprehesible except in terms of greed and insecurity...

These days I deliberately choose venues that are open & welcoming to all... :clap: & I've never regretted a thing...

David Bailey
13th-June-2007, 08:50 AM
I don't meant the moves. I mean the politics. :mad:
Every dance scene always has politics - for example, this Forum. There are groups, sub-groups, cliques, feuds, alliances, you name it. And it's complicated further by the "business" side of things. Also, there's always two sides to every dispute.

It's nothing do do with the dancing, and everything do do with people in groups - that's just how the dynamics of these things work. I'm sure the Upper Congleton Fine Art Appreciation Society has exactly the same problems.

Having said that, it is possible to enjoy the scene for many many years, without too much of this "allegiance" grief.


I see some fabulous dancers that turn up at events, are well respected and 'seem' to be neutral. They don't seem to get dragged down by all the nonsense. How is that achieved?
I would make no claim to being a fabulous dancer, but in my experience, no-one involved in the business area is completely able to return to the pure fun of dancing, there's usually some stuff that gets in the way. Which is why I personally have avoided getting involved that way, for the most part.

It seems great to be asked to be a taxi dancer, a demo, to teach, and so on - but these things always come with a price.

One of the reasons* I make strenuous efforts to avoid "the group thing" is because I know from past experience this often leads to problems. Interestingly, a couple of other well-known "life and soul" people have recently said the same thing to me - they've got disillusioned for the same reasons.


How can I be neutral so that other people's issues don't effect my enjoyment of dancing. :confused:
I would suggest that you "step back" from the group-affiliation thing, develop your own independence, and make friends with people as individuals. That approach has worked for me.

* The other reason being I'm just anti-social anyway of course.

David Bailey
13th-June-2007, 08:58 AM
I'd just like to add that I've encountered a level of Pettiness around CEROC/MJ that does not seem to infest other Dance forms in my area.. e.g. Salsa./Tango etc..
I disagree - in my experience, there's just as much pettiness in Salsa as there is in MJ. And I've certainly heard AT teachers bitching constantly about other AT teachers...


In other forms of dancing Teachers attend each others Dance classes/Freestyles and sometimes (Shock/Horror!!) :really: even do guest classes for others???
Yes, but that's usually a "personal-relationship" thing, rather than a "business" thing.

There's just as much Ego in other dance forms as in MJ - probably more, in fact, as it's mostly teacher-owner venues.


Compare this with the fact that I know certain folk have been barred from CEROC/MJ for setting up a class/workshops perceived as a Rival...
Ceroc takes a position that, if you're (for example) a Taxi Dancer for Ceroc and then set up as an independent venue organiser, then you can't really continue to be a Taxi Dancer for Ceroc, because you have a clear conflict of interest. That's actually not unreasonable.

But I don't think Ceroc as an organisation bans people from attending venues as dancers for that sort of thing. I'm aware that a few franchisees may do this, but some franchisees are not exactly shining examples of enlightened business practice, unfortunately.

Andy McGregor
13th-June-2007, 09:00 AM
Hi there

I'd just like to add that I've encountered a level of Pettiness around CEROC/MJ that does not seem to infest other Dance forms in my area.. e.g. Salsa./Tango etc..

In other forms of dancing Teachers attend each others Dance classes/Freestyles and sometimes (Shock/Horror!!) :really: even do guest classes for others???

Compare this with the fact that I know certain folk have been barred from CEROC/MJ for setting up a class/workshops perceived as a Rival...

I think some people regard themselves more as Tony Soparano than as part of any Dance Community... Suppose we should be lucky no-one got whacked yet!!!

To a Neutral like myself it's incomprehesible except in terms of greed and insecurity...

These days I deliberately choose venues that are open & welcoming to all... :clap: & I've never regretted a thing...In my experience it is not the organisers that some people call independents. I have, at some time or other taught for all of our local organsers - except Ceroc. There is, in the main, a desire to co-operate amongst most non-Ceroc organisers. But, ask somebody who teaches for Ceroc if they'd like to do a lesson and you end up being told "no" by Mike Ellard!

Ceroc have done nothing underhand or dishonest they have, very much, laid out their stall. Us independents all know that we're wasting our time asking anybody who does anything for Ceroc to do anything for us. If you decide to cross the line and get involved in the commercial side of MJ, my advice is to make your choice. Ceroc, or the rest. Once you have made that choice it is really easy. It's even easier to stay on the other side of the counter and just dance where you like.

Wuzzle
13th-June-2007, 09:33 AM
Politics thats something that comes up every election :whistle:

On a serious note i don't think I've heard, seen or listened to any politics to do with dance. Or rather i can't think of any perhaps. I keep saying am newish to the dance scene but thats now only compared to some.

Best not to get involved after all your there to enjoy the dance. After all it spoils the dance connection you get when your thinking else where....:blush:

My dancing is only as good as my mood :whistle: or energy level...

Spiky Steve
13th-June-2007, 10:12 AM
The thing about what is being called dancing politics is that they are for organisers, teachers, DJs, taxi dancers, demonstrators, etc. If you are just a dancer who turns up to their local venue and pays their £6, £7 or £8(!) you do not need to get involved.

You missed competitors. There was a whole lot of discussion after the Ceroc Champs, some on the forum and some not. Maybe after every competition?

If you want to avoid politics then stay away from competitions too!

Steve

Trouble
13th-June-2007, 10:33 AM
We had this discussion early on in our meet didn't we. At the end of the day, the forum is like a big tread mill of gossip. I get advised on a daily basis of gossip going around but normally take this as my rules;

Always listen but do not give an opinion or take sides.
Always offer to listen more if the person is upset about it.
Do not get involved with the issues.
Give love to everybody. (well nearly everybody)
Keep laughing because at the end of the day, if you think about what the issues are TB, they are just not worth stressing about im sure.
Remember things blow over as quick as they blow up.
Stick to the nice forumites, like me..... :D :awe:

hope that helps hun.xxxxx

Andy McGregor
13th-June-2007, 10:33 AM
You missed competitors.Thanks for adding to the list. I probably missed some others too. That's why I said "etc".

Any more groups that are affected by politics/commercial pressures?

Lee Bartholomew
13th-June-2007, 10:46 AM
Politics is everywhere, dance is no different.

Even some paying customers get dragged in to it at some point.

Let me tell you a story......


Awhile ago in Hastings there was 5 different Leroc classes. All four teachers were taught by Graham Leclerk and knew each other. All had classes on different nights of the week, all had the same average attendance (about 80). Most dancers would attend different teachers on different days and have no particular alliance.

One day someone decided they wanted more of the pie. How did they try to do this? They went to their 'rivals' class and flyered all the cars in the car park with free entry tickets to their class nights. Cue the start of some major fighting.

One teacher was so hell bent on destroying his rivals, he ran his classes at a loss and put on free freestyles on the same nights his rivals had paying ones.

The end result? The best teacher and DJ in the area gives up his venue and the dancers get stuck with some substandard teachers and a dis-information campain (advertising each others freestyles on wrong nights etc).

bigdjiver
13th-June-2007, 01:18 PM
I like the Pete Seegar quote "Whenever two or more people are gathered together, you are into politics."

Lynn
13th-June-2007, 01:34 PM
I've seen examples of both good and bad practice in local dance scenes.

Eg a salsa organiser who has taken down posters advertising his classes at a venue he has used for a club night so that teachers of other classes feel comfortable in sending their students along, and inviting other teachers to DJ.

Its not just about the commercial side - personalities do come into it. Someone won't go to someone else's event because they have fallen out with them. They then run their own event. If, as a regular punter you try to stay neutral and go to both, it can still end up complicated. I've seen customers become disillusioned and end up with no loyalty or respect for either teacher.

Collaborative is the best way forward, but most teachers/organisers consider 'their class' as their personal property and don't want to share.

I've tried the 'I don't want to get involved in the politics, I just want to support the development of dance' but its still hard not to be seen to take sides. (And I've experienced this in salsa, MJ, swing and AT.)

Dreadful Scathe
13th-June-2007, 01:50 PM
Let me tell you a story......

um...must you? to quote Twirlie Bird


I'm not asking for details. I'm not interested in naming names, telling tales and spreading rumours.

I have a whole stream of political infighting and gossip ready, but choose not to post it - because its not what this thread is about and all we are doing if we go down this road is spreading gossip and rumours...

Lynn
13th-June-2007, 01:54 PM
I have a whole stream of political infighting and gossip ready, but choose not to post it - because its not what this thread is about and all we are doing if we go down this road is spreading gossip and rumours...:yeah:

I did post one example of collaborative practice, but only because it was a positive one. (The 'X falls out with Y' was not based on any one specific incident.)

straycat
13th-June-2007, 02:00 PM
I have a whole stream of political infighting and gossip ready, but choose not to post it - because its not what this thread is about and all we are doing if we go down this road is spreading gossip and rumours...

Could this be because there's actually loads of dirt on you floating around in the aether? :devil:

For example: I hear tell** that you once created a whole village of evil smurfs to go and wipe out one of your local rival independants....***


**Well - I got it off Wiki, which is always right****

***Maybe I made that bit up.

****Except when it's wrong

Dreadful Scathe
13th-June-2007, 02:01 PM
Could this be because there's actually loads of dirt on you floating around in the aether? :devil:

no no :) i don't do anything worthy of note that anyone would want to involve me in politics :) I was talking about others ;)



Smurfs are inherently good - never evil :)

fletch
13th-June-2007, 02:39 PM
:mad: Why is it not just possible to go and dance and have fun?


Some of the 'respected neutral people' are also forumites. :
:

Perhaps you need to look at the forumties that are 'neutral'

How out spoken are they?

You have been vocal on a number of issues, 'likes and dislikes of venues', 'certain rules', (as I am from time to time):flower: its unrealistic to think that, with your profile photo' on every post you won't be recognised, there are many people that read this forum that don't post.:what:

I know this as I get a lot of people talking to me as if they know me,:confused: and of cause they do cos they read my posts,:flower: its the same for you TB :flower: if you want anonymity you need to take your photo off your posts and not comment on things that could upset anyone. :sick:

:hug:




Simple answer? Don't get involved with anyone on a level thats more than a "are we dancing then?" kinda thing. I'm not saying that this is what you do honey, just this is how I get around politics.



I suppose you need to think back (albeit not that long ago) as to why you started dancing and like you said, you enjoy dancing with your husband and you enjoy dancing in itself, don't let petty arguments spoil your pleasure. If you are unwelcome at a venue, then choose another.


If you feel everythings getting to you at the minute and feel like you don't want to go dancing, then I'd suggest doing just that, take a couple of weeks away from the dancing environments to truly decide what you want to do.

Hope that helps. :love:

:yeah:

You need to look at what is is that has got you mad :mad: and why this might have come about :confused: could it be a comment you have made along the way :confused:



I agree with Jamie, I know it hurts when your passionate about a situation and then it goes pear sheped, and it was all for what you belive 'the right reasons' the only thing you can hang on to is, if you belive if was for the right reasons it will blow over :hug: trust you heart :flower:


You could take some time out......:eek: ..........or ride the storm :hug: there are people that love you both see you Saturday, you will be very welcomed there i'm sure :clap:






Remember things blow over as quick as they blow up.


x


:yeah:

David Bailey
13th-June-2007, 02:51 PM
Perhaps you need to look at the forumties that are 'neutral'
You know, the more I see it, the more "forumties" is growing on me as a term? How weird is that? :confused:


How out spoken are they?
I'm neutral (ish), but then I guess I'm just quiet and retiring, so I probably don't count.

fletch
13th-June-2007, 02:54 PM
You know, the more I see it, the more "forumties" is growing on me as a term? How weird is that? :confused:


I'm neutral (ish), but then I guess I'm just quiet and retiring, so I probably don't count.


"forumties" :confused: is it a 'Fletcherism" :confused: :blush: :na:


You proberbly don't :wink: :D


:hug:

StokeBloke
13th-June-2007, 02:54 PM
My dancing is only as good as my mood :whistle: or energy level...
:yeah: and therein lies my problem.

bigdjiver
13th-June-2007, 02:57 PM
There can be inter-personal politics too. One example when people are pressured to take sides when couples split up.

StokeBloke
13th-June-2007, 03:26 PM
There can be inter-personal politics too. One example when people are pressured to take sides when couples split up.
Agreed. Getting caught in this sort of fall out can destroy good friendships and turn what were once the most eagerly anticipated dates on the dance calendar into a minefield of inter-personal politics and worry. All of which add together to extinguish even the brightest flames of enthusiasm :tears:

Trouble
13th-June-2007, 05:36 PM
Twirlie and Stokie you are the nicest people on the dance circuit end of story.


Rrecently i have become embroiled in a fracas that has made me reevaluate a number of issues in the dance world. What i have decided to do from now on is to not get with friendly to many many people, and just go along and enjoy my dancing and keep out of all the politics that abound in the dance community.

Do not give up dancing, just choose wisely with whom you socialise with and try to rediscover the pleasure you both once felt whilst dancing.

You both know you have my and Troubles friendship and love whatever you both choose to do.

XXX XXX DTS Dave
:respect: :love: :kiss:

fletch
13th-June-2007, 06:00 PM
Do not give up dancing, just choose wisely with whom you socialise with and try to rediscover the pleasure you both once felt whilst dancing.




I agree with DTS you two are lovely,:hug: and when you decover how to choose wisely can you tell me:rolleyes: , cos at 45 I don't think I have learn anything some times :tears:



:sad:

johnah
13th-June-2007, 06:42 PM
I love dancing. :awe: I have always wanted to dance and now I actually can and the highs it gives me are out of this world. I can dance with my husband and that is magical. :awe: Something I never thought I would be able to do.


And, that's why you should continue to enjoy your dancing whenever and wherever you choose. Partner dancing is a fun social activity, don't let the bolotics stop you or Stokie enjoying one of life's pleasures.:flower: :hug: :kiss:

Whoever has made you feel like this is a disgrace. :angry:

Cruella
13th-June-2007, 08:24 PM
And, that's why you should continue to enjoy your dancing whenever and wherever you choose. Partner dancing is a fun social activity, don't let the bolotics stop you or Stokie enjoying one of life's pleasures.:flower: :hug: :kiss:

Whoever has made you feel like this is a disgrace. :angry:

If you're going to nick my word, you could at least spell it correctly John!
It's Bolitics!

johnah
13th-June-2007, 09:52 PM
If you're going to nick my word, you could at least spell it correctly John!
It's Bolitics!

Oops! knew it was something like that, sorry:blush: And yes, you are indeed the owner of the word Bolitics. Wonderful expression :respect:

Mezzosoprano
13th-June-2007, 09:56 PM
You know, the more I see it, the more "forumties" is growing on me as a term? How weird is that? :confused:


Eh?... "forumties"....that's getting worryingly close to a nice expressive word like "numpties" - me no like!! Far too inflamatory for a pacifist like myself...:grin:

ducasi
13th-June-2007, 10:44 PM
Is "forumties" pronounced as "f'rumties"? Now that sounds like numpties. :D

Back to the politics... The best way I find to avoid it is don't take sides. Seems to work for me.

Gojive
13th-June-2007, 10:49 PM
Back to the politics... The best way I find to avoid it is don't take sides. Seems to work for me.
I agree with you...oh b*gger! :na:

Mac
13th-June-2007, 11:15 PM
I would suggest that you "step back" from the group-affiliation thing, develop your own independence, and make friends with people as individuals. That approach has worked for me.

* The other reason being I'm just anti-social anyway of course.


:yeah:
I got out of the commercial side of producing DVDs etc exactly for the reasons that I had to choose either to make business decisions or personal ones. I was not able to make sensible business decisions and so always lost out and also nearly lost good mates in the process.
:blush:

Sometimes you have to put someone back in their box, nail the lid down and make an absolute determined effort to ignore them . Thats what Ive done. Its sad but necessary sometimes:what:

Mac
13th-June-2007, 11:19 PM
Whoever has made you feel like this is a disgrace. :angry:

As a commercial operator Why don't you pm Twirly Bird with that question ? You may be surprised and most likely disappointed!
:wink: :mad:

Andy McGregor
14th-June-2007, 12:01 AM
I'm neutral (ish), but then I guess I'm just quiet and retiring, so I probably don't count.You are an unpaid employee of Ceroc. You work as a moderator on the Scottish Ceroc Forum. If you think you're not involved in the commercial side of MJ you are deluded.

KatieR
14th-June-2007, 12:12 AM
I know I'm entering the conversation a little late in the game, but I wanted to just add my thoughts.

As has been mentioned, politics is everywhere in dancing, I have encountered it myself. I was very lucky in that the friends that I made while in London didn't let themselves get too involved in all that stuff.

It is what you make it, I know sometimes that is hard, especially when your friends/colleagues possibly even yourself are embroiled in some unfounded dancing scandal or embargo that has been fueled by gossip.

I am what you would probably class as an 'independent'. We run our dance classes completely separate from the 'organisation' (ceroc tm). We wanted to be able to do our own thing, play the music we want, teach the way we want etc.

We cross promote with other dancing schools and are trying to work with other dance companies rather than against them and that is how we like it. We have also found that this has earned us a certain level of respect.

Sometimes it is impossible to avoid some level of politics, especially as an operator. But I think it is possible to try and rise above it and be the better person/people etc.

Twirlie Bird
14th-June-2007, 12:15 AM
As a commercial operator Why don't you pm Twirly Bird with that question ? You may be surprised and most likely disappointed!
:wink: :mad:

Maybe because Twirlie Bird has already said she isn't going into details. This isn't a personal attack. This is a sensible discussion that I am hoping to learn from. :grin:

Mac
14th-June-2007, 12:23 AM
Maybe because Twirlie Bird has already said she isn't going into details. This isn't a personal attack. This is a sensible discussion that I am hoping to learn from. :grin:

So You did! Sorry x:hug: :flower:

Andy McGregor
14th-June-2007, 12:25 AM
Maybe because Twirlie Bird has already said she isn't going into details. This isn't a personal attack. This is a sensible discussion that I am hoping to learn from. :grin:As I said, Twirlie bird needs to decide. Paying customer or join in with the politics/commercial side of dance. And, if you're going to cross the line, get thick skinned or get very good at the politics, very quickly :waycool:

David Bailey
14th-June-2007, 07:17 AM
You are an unpaid employee of Ceroc.
:rofl:
That must be why I always say such nice things about Ceroc? Ah, you've caught me out... :blush:


You work as a moderator on the Scottish Ceroc Forum. If you think you're not involved in the commercial side of MJ you are deluded.
Rubbish - you might as well say that because I pay to go to Ceroc events I'm involved in the commercial side of MJ.

Mind you, "unpaid", hmmm, you're right there... :devil:

Andy McGregor
14th-June-2007, 08:16 AM
:rofl:
That must be why I always say such nice things about Ceroc? Ah, you've caught me out... :blush:


Rubbish - you might as well say that because I pay to go to Ceroc events I'm involved in the commercial side of MJ.

Mind you, "unpaid", hmmm, you're right there... :devil:It's just a matter of time before DJ realises that he's part of the politics. As an old hand at the Forum I've noticed that it has become politicised over the recent year. At one time anyone could mention their event, Ceroc or not. Then anyone could pay to promote their event. Nowadays you will get your post removed if you promote an event. But this removal is not across the board, it is biased towards Ceroc events.

I can understand why this has been done and was quite surprised that Franck wasn't doing it in the first place. But anybody who is enforcing Franck's rules is part of the commercial process and, therefore, part of what is being called "politics" on this thread.

And, before anybody says "the Forum is not political", ask yourself the question, "would't the best politician say that they weren't involved in politics?"

Mac
14th-June-2007, 08:19 AM
It's just a matter of time before DJ realises that he's part of the politics. As an old hand at the Forum I've noticed that it has become politicised over the recent year. At one time anyone could mention their event, Ceroc or not. Then anyone could pay to promote their event. Nowadays you will get your post removed if you promote an event. But this removal is not across the board, it is biased towards Ceroc events.

I can understand why this has been done and was quite surprised that Franck wasn't doing it in the first place. But anybody who is enforcing Franck's rules is part of the commercial process and, therefore, part of what is being called "politics" on this thread.

And, before anybody says "the Forum is not political", ask yourself the question, "would't the best politician say that they weren't involved in politics?"
:yeah: :yeah:
Im with you on this one dude:cheers: :cheers:

David Bailey
14th-June-2007, 08:54 AM
It's just a matter of time before DJ realises that he's part of the politics.
I know I'm a slow learner, but I've been dancing for nearly 20 years now, how long do you think it'll take? :innocent:


As an old hand at the Forum I've noticed that it has become politicised over the recent year. At one time anyone could mention their event, Ceroc or not. Then anyone could pay to promote their event. Nowadays you will get your post removed if you promote an event. But this removal is not across the board, it is biased towards Ceroc events.
OK, just to clarify the rules on this one:
- Adverts are not permitted. Any adverts. I've infracted a Ceroc Scotland teacher for doing this in the past, and I'll do so again if required.
- An "advert" is something publicizing an event, by someone who has a financial interest in that event.
- Event discussions, and contributions / information volunteered, are welcome - so if someone asks you (Andy) a question about one of your events, please feel free to reply.
- We try to give the benefit of the doubt, but there are some real dodgy characters out there who try to sneak in adverts through the back door. I've seen this myself, on several occasions.
- If you see an advert - any advert - please report it, and we'll deal with it appropriately.

Having said that, Ceroc Scotland don't need to advertise events on the forum, as they're listed already. And Ceroc franchisees in general don't advertise events on the forum either - they have the Ceroc marketing machine to do that for them.

So that's why it may seem that a disproportionate number of adverts from independents get zapped - independents simply do this more than Ceroc franchisees, in my experience.


I can understand why this has been done and was quite surprised that Franck wasn't doing it in the first place. But anybody who is enforcing Franck's rules is part of the commercial process and, therefore, part of what is being called "politics" on this thread.
Again, rubbish. That's like saying someone who helps out at the school fete is an employee of the school. Forum moderators are not employee - they're volunteer helpers.

And personally, I view this as a Modern Jive forum, which happens to be hosted by Ceroc Scotland. My "obligations", such as they are, are to the MJ community, not to Ceroc Scotland.


IAnd, before anybody says "the Forum is not political", ask yourself the question, "would't the best politician say that they weren't involved in politics?"
No, because it'd be a very stupid thing to say.

Finally, Ceroc Scotland hosts this forum, and Franck pays for it, and he's a damn sight more tolerant of some things than I would be.