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Lee Bartholomew
9th-June-2007, 10:15 AM
Lee and Shelly's spinning workshop (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDu9DK0l0yU&NR=1) :worthy:
SpinDr


More of a masterclass in how to take your partners out with your elbows. :angry:

Moved to a separate thread - DJ

straycat
9th-June-2007, 10:25 AM
More of a masterclass in how to take your partners out with your elbows. :angry:

'Bit like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhTrURSChow)?

Lee Bartholomew
9th-June-2007, 10:42 AM
'Bit like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhTrURSChow)?

Like what one Stray?

Would like to see you put a clip up of you dancing, though I have the feeling you wouldn't have the nuts to do it.

straycat
9th-June-2007, 10:51 AM
Like what one Stray?

:rofl:
Quick work :wink:



Would like to see you put a clip up of you dancing, though I have the feeling you wouldn't have the nuts to do it.
If I ever get one that I'm truly pleased with, I will put it online. Just for you :waycool:

spindr
9th-June-2007, 10:59 AM
More of a masterclass in how to take your partners out with your elbows. :angry:
Well, if you can't spin on the spot, then you're going to hit someone anyway :)

Actually, there's some good advice for followers at the end -- so that the follower doesn't let the elbow get pushed out (which is what quite a lot of MJ followers do) making them "wider" as they turn and possibly hitting the leader in the head with an elbow.

SpinDr

spindr
9th-June-2007, 11:00 AM
'Bit like this one (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhTrURSChow)?
Strange -- it seems to have been removed?
SpinDr

straycat
9th-June-2007, 11:02 AM
Strange -- it seems to have been removed?
SpinDr

Woodface's "spinning edited" video. Removed since my linking to it.

Lee Bartholomew
9th-June-2007, 11:19 AM
Woodface's "spinning edited" video. Removed since my linking to it.

Been meaning to clear out my youtube vids for awhile.

I have quite a few on my profile with a few more to go up . Have a look, you might find another one to mock.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=w00dface)

If I waited for the perfect dance to be filmed, I wouldn't have any up.

Lee Bartholomew
9th-June-2007, 11:48 AM
Well, if you can't spin on the spot, then you're going to hit someone anyway :)

Actually, there's some good advice for followers at the end -- so that the follower doesn't let the elbow get pushed out (which is what quite a lot of MJ followers do) making them "wider" as they turn and possibly hitting the leader in the head with an elbow.

SpinDr


YouTube - Me and Coni Spinning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoBQAP1dgec) :whistle:

Caro
9th-June-2007, 12:41 PM
YouTube - Me and Coni Spinning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoBQAP1dgec) :whistle:

well... she can spin nicely :whistle: ;)

Lee Bartholomew
9th-June-2007, 12:49 PM
well... she can spin nicely :whistle: ;)

It's all in the lead :wink:

That's BlueEyes (Coni) taught her myself :whistle: :na:

One of us both dancing at southport. Best viewed full screen due to darkness.

YouTube - me and coni (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAFnw97WUIQ)

straycat
9th-June-2007, 07:14 PM
YouTube - Me and Coni Spinning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoBQAP1dgec) :whistle:

Well - on the elbow front, I can't see why you think this much different from the one you removed. Although you travel a little less these days, I'll grant you. :waycool:

Lee Bartholomew
9th-June-2007, 07:25 PM
Well - on the elbow front, I can't see why you think this much different from the one you removed. Although you travel a little less these days, I'll grant you. :waycool:

Better than what you will ever acheive my little ally cat friend. :wink:

straycat
9th-June-2007, 07:26 PM
Better than what you will ever acheive my little ally cat friend. :wink:

On that note, may I request we split this thread? It may even make sense to join the split onto one of the existing 'spinning' threads.

David Bailey
9th-June-2007, 08:46 PM
On that note, may I request we split this thread?
Done.

straycat
9th-June-2007, 09:06 PM
Done.

Thank you, sir.


Better than what you will ever acheive my little ally cat friend. :wink:

You may not have noticed this - but I'm not exactly your ally. :waycool:

Andy McGregor
10th-June-2007, 03:01 AM
Better than what you will ever acheive my little ally cat friend. :wink:One thing that I think woodface is confused about is what freestyle is for. It's for fun. That means fun you your partner too. Having a partner who spins and spins is not fun. You put a brave face on it, however, it is not fun. Perhaps Mr Stray does not spin as much as woodface. And, perhaps his partners prefer it that way.

Lee Bartholomew
10th-June-2007, 05:47 AM
One thing that I think woodface is confused about is what freestyle is for. It's for fun. That means fun you your partner too. Having a partner who spins and spins is not fun. You put a brave face on it, however, it is not fun. Perhaps Mr Stray does not spin as much as woodface. And, perhaps his partners prefer it that way.


I only spin that much with Coni and thats only sometimes. It's made out that I do it all the time but ohhh nope.

Still, it's a good little skill to have. Mr 3 times then fall over :whistle:

Andy McGregor
10th-June-2007, 12:35 PM
I only spin that much with Coni and thats only sometimes. It's made out that I do it all the time but ohhh nope.

Still, it's a good little skill to have. Mr 3 times then fall over :whistle:To one saying woodface spins & spins all the time is woodface.

On a good day I can do multi-spins but woodface is right that I do sometimes fall off the spot if I do more than 2 spins. I usually stop spinning at this point because I've started travelling with less control than nomal. I stop spinning to avoid a collision - not something that troubles woodface.

Lee Bartholomew
10th-June-2007, 12:40 PM
To one saying woodface spins & spins all the time is woodface.

On a good day I can do multi-spins but woodface is right that I do sometimes fall off the spot if I do more than 2 spins. I usually stop spinning at this point because I've started travelling with less control than nomal. I stop spinning to avoid a collision - not something that troubles woodface.

Money where you mouth is big boy. Name 1 time I have ever had a collision.



Anywhay. What does the lady do when you (on a good day) do multi spins?

Andy McGregor
10th-June-2007, 12:57 PM
Money where you mouth is big boy. Name 1 time I have ever had a collision.

Anywhay. What does the lady do when you (on a good day) do multi spins?If woodface has never had a collision it is down to the floorcraft of those around him.

If I do multi spins it will fit the music. There is not reason why a couple can't separate until the end of an 8 beat phrase. That separation would usually be 4 or 8 beats depending on when you start. It's all down to the music. But, IMHO, you need to reconnect at the start of the next 8 beat phrase. If you have travelled during your multi spin you have the embarrassing walk back to your partner and you might miss the start of the next phrase.

Lee Bartholomew
10th-June-2007, 01:01 PM
If woodface has never had a collision it is down to the floorcraft of those around him.

If I do multi spins it will fit the music. There is not reason why a couple can't separate until the end of an 8 beat phrase. That separation would usually be 4 or 8 beats depending on when you start. It's all down to the music. But, IMHO, you need to reconnect at the start of the next 8 beat phrase. If you have travelled during your multi spin you have the embarrassing walk back to your partner and you might miss the start of the next phrase.

Andy you are talking a huge hairy bunch of balls.

Who do you think is better at spinning Andy me or you? Mmmm let me think how you are going to answer that :rolleyes:


Any forumites want to come forward and say when I have danced with them and done more than 2 spins? It does'nt happen and if it does it'[s rare.

Stop trying to cause trouble again Andy. Give advice on something you know about, like cross-dressing. :wink:

straycat
10th-June-2007, 05:36 PM
Better than what you will ever acheive my little ally cat friend. :wink:

Anyway. Back (vaguely) to the topic at hand. I was not commenting on your dancing / spinning techniques, which (I feel) speak for themselves.

My comment based on the fact that you criticised the used of elbows in the original clip. I then linked to a clip where your own use of elbows was very similar. You then removed that one, and replaced it with another clip where your use of elbows was - again - similar.

Hence my puzzlement.

Andy McGregor
10th-June-2007, 05:48 PM
Anyway. Back (vaguely) to the topic at hand. I was not commenting on your dancing / spinning techniques, which (I feel) speak for themselves.

My comment based on the fact that you criticised the used of elbows in the original clip. I then linked to a clip where your own use of elbows was very similar. You then removed that one, and replaced it with another clip where your use of elbows was - again - similar.

Hence my puzzlement.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Still can't rep you.

Andy McGregor
10th-June-2007, 05:53 PM
Andy you are talking a huge hairy bunch of balls.

Who do you think is better at spinning Andy me or you? Mmmm let me think how you are going to answer that :rolleyes:


Any forumites want to come forward and say when I have danced with them and done more than 2 spins? It does'nt happen and if it does it'[s rare.

Stop trying to cause trouble again Andy. Give advice on something you know about, like cross-dressing. :wink:As it happens, I think that woodface's dancing is flawed by a lack of basic technique. This lack of technique runs through his dancing like the writing through a seaside rock. So, I'm quite certain who I think is a better spinner than woodface - most people who can control their spins, stay on the spot, know where there partner is during thier spin and finish the spin facing their partner, reconnecting at the correct point in the music :whistle:

p.s. No, I'm not picking on woodface. I'm sticking up for myself :mad:

Lee Bartholomew
10th-June-2007, 08:16 PM
Anyway. Back (vaguely) to the topic at hand. I was not commenting on your dancing / spinning techniques, which (I feel) speak for themselves.

My comment based on the fact that you criticised the used of elbows in the original clip. I then linked to a clip where your own use of elbows was very similar. You then removed that one, and replaced it with another clip where your use of elbows was - again - similar.

Hence my puzzlement.

Two things

A) im not saying to a class "Stick you elbows out"

and B) if you actually look, my hand are on my chest and my elbows are tucked to the minimum poss.

Finally C) Can you do any better?


As it happens, I think that woodface's dancing is flawed by a lack of basic technique. This lack of technique runs through his dancing like the writing through a seaside rock. So, I'm quite certain who I think is a better spinner than woodface - most people who can control their spins, stay on the spot, know where there partner is during thier spin and finish the spin facing their partner, reconnecting at the correct point in the music :whistle:

p.s. No, I'm not picking on woodface. I'm sticking up for myself :mad:

Flawed by lack of basic technique? Nope Amdy, maybe It's that I have gone past basic technique and my dancing is just to complex for you to understand :whistle:

What basic techniques are missing? Anyone else agree with Andy on this?

Most of my dancing is as slotted as can be although this isn't always poss to to floor space and the nature of some moves and I certainly no longer over turn ladies (unless they overturn themselves of course!)

P.s. You started it. :na:

David Bailey
10th-June-2007, 11:19 PM
Flawed by lack of basic technique? Nope Amdy, maybe It's that I have gone past basic technique and my dancing is just to complex for you to understand :whistle:
Cor, I'm impressed. I'm still working on my basic technique.
And my dancing's getting less and less complex - should I be worried? :eek:

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 06:39 AM
should I be worried? :eek:


Yes. :na:

straycat
11th-June-2007, 09:19 AM
A) im not saying to a class "Stick you elbows out"

Funnily enough, nor are they. They demonstrate one solo exercise, and suggest it be tried at home - that's the one with the arms raised. When he says to raise the arms, he also says to form a 'nice circle' with the arms, which keeps the elbows in a safer position. When they switch to partner work, he keeps his elbows tightly tucked in.

Your own clip, on the other hand, involved partner work, with your elbows out.

So yes - I'm still puzzled.


and B) if you actually look, my hand are on my chest and my elbows are tucked to the minimum poss.

I think we might be watching different clips. I'm watching the one where, on the very first spin you do, you start with your elbows out, in full 'chicken wing' mode (painful for anyone who gets clobbered by it). As the spin progresses, you start to lean towards Coni, then start travelling towards her as the spin becomes more unstable - and she has to take a quick step back to avoid being hit.

Which one are you watching?



Finally C) Can you do any better?

Which bit? The number of spins? The dancing? The leading? Any other aspects?
To answer those: no, yes, yes and resoundingly yes.



Flawed by lack of basic technique? Nope Amdy, maybe It's that I have gone past basic technique and my dancing is just to complex for you to understand :whistle:

:rofl: I'm glad you still have a sense of irony ;)



What basic techniques are missing? Anyone else agree with Andy on this?


I agree with him, yes. If you really are interested in advice on how to improve, I can give a few suggestions.

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 09:23 AM
{snip}

Go on then Stray, Humor me. :rolleyes:

straycat
11th-June-2007, 09:28 AM
Go on then Stray, Humor me. :rolleyes:

I have no intention of 'humoring' you. If you'd like decent advice, and are prepared to take it on board, and try it on for size, then I'll happily spend some time and help. This is a genuine, well-intentioned offer.

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 09:44 AM
Stray, I have never seen you dance, Met you or even heard any reports on your dancing from other forumites.......... However.....

I always listen to advice from everyone from top dancers down to beginners. If the advice is good and fits in with our style of dancing then it's worth taking onboard. Ob. advice which goes against our style or doesn't work for us will be dismissed.

I don't like to think of dancers giving advice, I prefer to think of it as dancers giving suggestions.

straycat
11th-June-2007, 10:04 AM
I'll take that as a 'no' then - if you're really not that bothered, there seems little point :waycool:

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 10:08 AM
I'll take that as a 'no' then - if you're really not that bothered, there seems little point :waycool:

Didn't say I wasn't bothered.

Would you take advice from someone you have never met or seen dance?

I will certainly listen and if your advice is good then I would use it. :cool:

David Bailey
11th-June-2007, 10:28 AM
Stray, I have never seen you dance, Met you or even heard any reports on your dancing from other forumites
Well, he must be useless then. I mean, if he hasn't had a glowing report from forumites, who does he think he is, huh?

I've not met or seen him dance either, but his advice seems credible to me. Similarly, I've not met David Franklin, TA Guy, or many others, but they seem to know what they're talking about.

Zara
11th-June-2007, 10:29 AM
Woodface, Andy...you are so funny when you argue :D
From first hand experience,I would say you both spin beautifully :flower:
Zara xxx

Caro
11th-June-2007, 10:35 AM
Woodface, Andy...(snip)
From first hand experience,I would say you both spin beautifully :flower:


oooh insulting AndyMG now!!! :rofl: :wink:

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 10:36 AM
Woodface, Andy...you are so funny when you argue :D
From first hand experience,I would say you both spin beautifully :flower:
Zara xxx



Thanks :flower:











*But I have the edge eh. :wink: :na:

straycat
11th-June-2007, 11:23 AM
OK. One thing then - so how you go with that. Leading arm, reference is the spinning video.

The Issue:
Occurs throughout, but focussing on one example:
Take a look at the spinning video, around at around 1:03.
Simple sequence of events: you take her hand, and instantly bounce your hands down sharply, straightening your leading (right) arm. You then do another, smaller hand-bounce with your arm straight, and your shoulder raised. From that position, you then do the move prep, and lead into the move.

Why is this a problem?

With your arm straight and shoulder locked in that fashion, your arm loses all elasticity which can help smooth out the lead, and your lead cannot help but be much rougher and more abrupt. Appearence-wise it adversely affects your posture, and hurts the look of the move. Heathwise, you're putting unnecessary strain on your back. Trust me when I say this is a bad thing - I've learn this the very hard way, and I'd hate to see others going through what I have. Coni's use of shoulders and arms, on the other hand, is really good here.
In the same way, you lose much of the power that you can obtain through well-connected lead. This in turn makes it much harder to keep the dance looking dynamic and exciting.
Those first two bounces are unecessary. I think you're putting them in the establish some connection with Coni, as they don't look particularly like beat-marking, and the more 'prep' section is already sufficient. Worse than being unnecessary though, they add unneeded 'noise' into your lead, which makes it much harder to follow. Appearence-wise - again - they look untidy.

That's probably enough to be going on with.

What you can do
I've picked a vid from your favourites list, by way of reference: Jordan and Tatiana (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=719FucXtHhE). Notice the way they keep their shoulders down and relaxed throughout. As an example, take a look at 51 seconds in, where he sends her out, and brings her back - as his arm straightens, he's extending his whole body, creating this elasticity between them, which then brings her back - she's mirroring this (there's a million and one beautiful examples in this clip)

So. Pratical tips. Shoulders, shoulders, shoulders - keep them down and relaxed. Try to keep your arm more elastic - don't let it get too straight unless the move demands it, and never lock the elbow. Try to eliminate unnecessary movement in your leading arm - keep the lead clear and concise.

Sorry - I'm having to cut this short - I need to get on with some work :(
I hope this is of help to you.

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 11:26 AM
See that advice is usefull.

Cheers stray. :cheers:

Will have a propper look this eve at home with coni.

Caro
11th-June-2007, 12:44 PM
See that advice is usefull.


That advice is not just useful Woodie, if you manage to take it on board and change your lead as a consequence, it will revolutionise your ability to lead, and make following you so much more enjoyable and easy.

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 12:48 PM
That advice is not just useful Woodie, if you manage to take it on board and change your lead as a consequence, it will revolutionise your ability to lead, and make following you so much more enjoyable and easy.


We talking about dancing or in the bedroom? :whistle: :na:

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 12:57 PM
oooh insulting AndyMG now!!! :rofl: :wink:

Andy should be honored. :na:

Caro
11th-June-2007, 01:03 PM
We talking about dancing or in the bedroom? :whistle: :na:

I just puked. Some images are not made to ever cross my mind. :sick:

Lee Bartholomew
11th-June-2007, 01:04 PM
I just puked. Some images are not made to ever cross my mind. :sick:

Sorry. Should have know putting Andy and Bedroom in the same thread would have had that result. :na:

MartinHarper
11th-June-2007, 02:32 PM
Dang. What's the minimum annoyance threshold I have to cross before I start getting free private lessons too?

Ghost
12th-June-2007, 12:07 AM
Dang. What's the minimum annoyance threshold I have to cross before I start getting free private lessons too?

I think someone mentioned recently the idea of putting up videos of yourself dancing and getting forumites to critique it and give advice. Sounds like a cross between an excellent idea and World War 3 :devil:

Andy McGregor
12th-June-2007, 07:41 AM
Sorry. Should have know putting Andy and Bedroom in the same thread would have had that result. :na:In my experience this is a normal reaction :tears:

Back on topic. I too have spent time with woodface helping correct his dancing! I think his problem is that he's trying to copy the great dancers and missing out on learning the fundamentals. I think this is one of the problems with the way MJ is taught. However, woodface has taken this to an extreme!

Unfortunately, more MJ classes are really not the answer. Nor is working on moves with a friend in private: neither will help him improve his technique. Woodface has so much enthusiam and so much potential it would be a shame if he didn't realise that potential. What I think woodface needs is private lessons with a professional dancer. My only concern is that he would be unbearable if he was actually right!

Come to think of it. He's unbearable on the Forum now - because he actually thinks that is IS right :confused:

Come on woodface, how many times do you need advice from the great and the good before you start taking it?

Andy McGregor
12th-June-2007, 07:43 AM
Dang. What's the minimum annoyance threshold I have to cross before I start getting free private lessons too?You crossed that annoyance threshold years ago. However, it was nothing to do with your dancing :whistle:

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 09:00 AM
Back on topic. I too have spent time with woodface helping correct his dancing! I think his problem is that he's trying to copy the great dancers and missing out on learning the fundamentals. I think this is one of the problems with the way MJ is taught. However, woodface has taken this to an extreme!

Unfortunately, more MJ classes are really not the answer. Nor is working on moves with a friend in private: neither will help him improve his technique. Woodface has so much enthusiam and so much potential it would be a shame if he didn't realise that potential. What I think woodface needs is private lessons with a professional dancer. My only concern is that he would be unbearable if he was actually right!

Come to think of it. He's unbearable on the Forum now - because he actually thinks that is IS right :confused:

Come on woodface, how many times do you need advice from the great and the good before you start taking it?

I have never had advise from the great and good. Only you. :na:

Actually Andy as I said earlier in this thread, I have had loads of advise and I am always after it. I like getting constructive criticism from my dancing, which is why I post vids on here and ask for comments on them. I think it is the best way.

I have taken advise onboard from alot of people, from newish dancers who have said one way of doing a move looked nicer than another way, through to David Franklin's advise on not locking fingers doing a swan and even your advice about slotted'ness and dancing with beginners.

If I was to give an honest, non-forum, rating of my dancing ability, I would prob put it around the average mark. I don't think im beginner, nor am I advanced. If posting on the forum, then I would rate my dancing as better than everyone elses :na:

I don't think my dancing is lacking fundamental basics, it's just different from what most people do. I like alot of slides, spins and unusual moves, some people like perfecting the basics. Each to their own.

The spin vid posted is not really the best vid to comment on my dancing as, as you can see from it, we were only messing about with BlueEyes leading me in some of it.

A better one to watch is YouTube - me and coni (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAFnw97WUIQ) But even then it aint great but puts some of the spins in to a propper dance so at least it can be seen in context.

Ghost
12th-June-2007, 11:17 AM
Any forumites want to come forward and say when I have danced with them and done more than 2 spins? It does'nt happen and if it does it'[s rare.

Ok serious question (it may have been asked / answered before, but I don't remember the answer) :flower:

Why the interest in being able to do more than 2 spins? Dont get me wrong, I know moves I'll never use in freestyle, but I learnt them because I like them for a variety of reasons despite their complete impracticality. It's just that the best advice I know for doing multi-spins is to really perfect doing one spin first. Then 2 spins. Because all the little errors compound the more you do and the worse the ones towards the end become. So if you just like doing 269 spins just for a laugh then fair enough; but if you're trying to do multi-spins well, try a "less is more" approach. Of course you may well be doing it for an entirely different reason........

Oh and I'm sure there's advice on the Forum about spinning technique somewhere (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/8006-spinning.html) :wink:

straycat
12th-June-2007, 11:24 AM
I don't think my dancing is lacking fundamental basics, it's just different from what most people do. I like alot of slides, spins and unusual moves, some people like perfecting the basics. Each to their own.


This is where we differ. The clips you have posted online demonstrate a real lack of the fundemental basics - I've described one such above, Andy's talked about similar, and I'm sure other people have. It doesn't make your dancing 'different' or distinctive - these are understandable faults shared by a large number of other beginners, and they're nothing to be ashamed of - most of us have been through similar stages, and wrestled with similar problems. It is however, a key factor in what makes a beginner look beginnerish - and you need to sort them out if you want to rise beyond that.

But as you say - there's no need for you to do that if you don't want to, and if you're completely happy with your dancing, good for you. :flower:

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 11:26 AM
Ok serious question (it may have been asked / answered before, but I don't remember the answer) :flower:

Why the interest in being able to do more than 2 spins? Dont get me wrong, I know moves I'll never use in freestyle, but I learnt them because I like them for a variety of reasons despite their complete impracticality. It's just that the best advice I know for doing multi-spins is to really perfect doing one spin first. Then 2 spins. Because all the little errors compound the more you do and the worse the ones towards the end become. So if you just like doing 269 spins just for a laugh then fair enough; but if you're trying to do multi-spins well, try a "less is more" approach. Of course you may well be doing it for an entirely different reason........

Oh and I'm sure there's advice on the Forum about spinning technique somewhere (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/8006-spinning.html) :wink:


It's just a nice little trick to have. As I said and you quoted, I very rarely do it with anyone other than BlueEyes. Sometimes though I get complaints if I don't do it :what: .

It's just one of those things. Jamie and Central Alex are better at it than me.

If you can do more than 2 an put it in to the music, then why not? Watch the clip. Think at one point do 4-5 but the were with the intention of getting from one spot to another.

David Bailey
12th-June-2007, 11:44 AM
If you can do more than 2 an put it in to the music, then why not?.
Because you tend to lose your connection with your partner.

More spins = more time not connected = A Bad Thing.

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 11:48 AM
Because you tend to lose your connection with your partner.

More spins = more time not connected = A Bad Thing.

There is more to partner dancing than physical connection belive it or not.

What about Hip Hop partner dancing, where there is hardly any physical connection at all.

Broaden your mind with dancing. It's not all Blues this, Tango that. :wink:

Ghost
12th-June-2007, 11:59 AM
It's just a nice little trick to have.
Fair enough

As I said and you quoted, I very rarely do it with anyone other than BlueEyes.
Ah well that's an entirely different matter :flower: (sorry I missed the reference to Coni before)


If you can do more than 2 an put it in to the music, then why not? Watch the clip. Think at one point do 4-5 but the were with the intention of getting from one spot to another.
About 1 min 10?

Actually I'm coming at this from a slightly different viewpoint. It's not that I have any objection to you doing 5, 6 spins etc. All I'm suggesting is how much better it would look if you sorted out all the associated technique. The 1 min 10 could look much cleaner :cool: But then I'm kinda assuming based on your comments that you're after constructive help. Like all things it's up to you. If you prefer it to just be something "fun" with Coni and don't want it to become a chore re-learning fair enough.


It's just one of those things. Jamie and Central Alex are better at it than me.
As has been suggested, maybe get a private tuition with them, particulalry if you like their style. They could probably save you a LOT of trial and error grief.

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 12:06 PM
{snip}

In all honesty, im not overly bothered about spins. I can do quite a few. in the right conditions, can easily get in to double figures, but yes it does get messy.

I have started working on techniques for it recently and developed a few things that help i.e Placing hands on chest. If you watch the me and BlueEyes spinning vid, you will notice she can do 5-6 with one hand behind back and one across stomach, something I suggested but couldn't do myself.

It's all practise. One day I might be able to beat that lass who done 31 spins, then again, I might just get bored of it.


You would be supprised who many people come up to me during classes and ask for spinning tips and how I do it etc, so to the average dancer, It can't look that bad. :wink:

Ghost
12th-June-2007, 12:16 PM
In all honesty, im not overly bothered about spins.
Fair enough


I have started working on techniques for it recently and developed a few things that help i.e Placing hands on chest. If you watch the me and BlueEyes spinning vid, you will notice she can do 5-6 with one hand behind back and one across stomach, something I suggested but couldn't do myself.
Yeah , I was toying with suggesting that you ask her for advice :whistle:


It's all practise. One day I might be able to beat that lass who done 31 spins, then again, I might just get bored of it.
Ah in that case, maybe go and ask some ballet people - there's a French and Sauders clip I saw years ago where they literally tell this ballet dancer to "practice her spins" and she does them continuously, perfectly, while French and Saunders do a minute's dialogue :respect:


You would be supprised who many people come up to me during classes and ask for spinning tips and how I do it etc, so to the average dancer, It can't look that bad. :wink:
:) and to be fair - the people offering advice aren't looking at it from the eyes of an average dancer. Have fun.

David Bailey
12th-June-2007, 12:37 PM
There is more to partner dancing than physical connection belive it or not.
Well, thanks for letting me know that. :D

But I didn't say, "physical connection", I said "connection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_%28dance%29)". It's a technical term us dancers use. :rolleyes:

It's a very good exercise to lead without a physical connection (no touching). It's also useful to lead without a visual connection (partner's eyes closed). In both cases, there is a connection.

And, I've seen Amir lead with no physical or visual connection (i.e. no touching of partner and she had her eyes closed). But clearly there was a still a connection, even if only through the Force.

Hmmm.... why do I get a "deja vu, wasting my time with explanations" feeling here?

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 12:40 PM
Well, thanks for letting me know that. :D

But I didn't say, "physical connection", I said "connection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_%28dance%29)". It's a technical term us dancers use. :rolleyes:

It's a very good exercise to lead without a physical connection (no touching). It's also useful to lead without a visual connection (partner's eyes closed). In both cases, there is a connection.

And, I've seen Amir lead with no physical or visual connection (i.e. no touching of partner and she had her eyes closed). But clearly there was a still a connection, even if only through the Force.

Hmmm.... why do I get a "deja vu, wasting my time with explanations" feeling here?


I know what you are saying but don't see why there can't be connection whilst one partner or another is doing multiple spins.

Do you feel different if it is the follow doing it?

David Bailey
12th-June-2007, 02:14 PM
I know what you are saying but don't see why there can't be connection whilst one partner or another is doing multiple spins.
Because only a truly godlike dancer can maintain connection whilst spinning. And as you've (several times) admitted you don't spot, there's even less likelihood of you being able to establish a connection during your 2,553 spins or whatever.

So, you're not looking at your partner at all, and you're obviously not touching her - how do you propose to establish connection?

Put it another way, can you lead your partner whilst spinning? Or is she left to her own devices?

Spinning is a good test of balance - and a good way of developing that balance. It looks good, and so is great for visual areas (competitons / showcases) and for classes specialising in that sort of style (e.g. Jive nation, and Aussie "fast and furious" style generally).

But I don't see that it helps in an intensively lead-and-follow, connection-based, social dance.


Do you feel different if it is the follow doing it?
Nope - follower-multi-spinning has the same problems, for the same reasons.

Jamie
12th-June-2007, 02:22 PM
I think you're all getting a bit too "let's diss woodface cause we can"...

In the video's of Woodface spinning, the music is quite upbeat, energetic and bouncy, this is the best type of music to spin to in my opinion, you can really let yourself go and throw yourself around, well I do anyway.

It's what I'd do, in bouncy bouncy ceroc type dancing, I'd definately throw loads of multi spins in because quite frankly, theres no musicality going off in the dance because it's just thump thump, so it's move move move, hence the ways for a follow, or indeed a lead to express themselves are limited, why not spin? It's different and it's definately a skill.

However, in a blue dance/environment I rarely do more than a double spin, I base my spins on the speed of the music and length of breaks etc.. During my dances with woodface, I've noticed he indeed does the same which shows to me, he has musicality. It might not be to the level as some other forumites who are jumping down his throat, but the guy's having a go and for that I say :respect:

Keep on spinning Lee.

Jamie

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 02:24 PM
Because only a truly godlike dancer can maintain connection whilst spinning. And as you've (several times) admitted you don't spot, there's even less likelihood of you being able to establish a connection during your 2,553 spins or whatever.


But a few post ago, you were saying Amir leads without sight or touch. :what:

Is Amir God like?

Not being argumentative just interested.

Of course, if you lead your partner forward or she does multi spins at the same time, then the connection is still there. What if you lead your partner in to multi spins? Say you walk around her whilst she is spinning?

Chef
12th-June-2007, 02:25 PM
I know what you are saying but don't see why there can't be connection whilst one partner or another is doing multiple spins.

Do you feel different if it is the follow doing it?

Your last quote made me think about something that occurred to me afte watching your video of you and Coni spinning.

There were a few occasions where it looked as if you were falling off of your spin and Conni was backing away. There was one occasion where you travelled away and conni went after you. I am not saying any of this as a critism but my partner has told me not to move because she tells me that she uses me as a referance point during free spins and if I move then she has no idea where the target will be for her to stop. I have sometimes played with this by sending her into a free spin and moving and finding that she tends to topple in the direction that I move.

I am wondering if Conni moved because you fell off of the spin or if you fell off of the spin because Conni moved.

When you are spinning what is it that gives you your referance point so that you can stop you spin facing your partner? What is it that tells you that you are still vertical while you are spinning? Can you trust your balance organs in your ears to tell you the truth while you are spinning and do you back this up with information like seeing the distance to your partner - so if your partner moves it creates conflict between the two sources of information.

When Conni spins you, you bring your left leg out in an arc and back in in order to generate the rotational momentum for the spin. How does Conni know how much energy to give you from her lead to you? After all she doesn't know how much energy your are going to put into the spin so she won't know how much she needs to give you. Unless you allow her to learn how much lead corresponds to how much spin then she will never learn the relationship between the two. Still, since it was just a bit of fun between a couple it won't matter.

As I say just some things that I got into thinking about and not a critism in any way.

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 02:27 PM
I think you're all getting a bit too "let's diss woodface cause we can"...

In the video's of Woodface spinning, the music is quite upbeat, energetic and bouncy, this is the best type of music to spin to in my opinion, you can really let yourself go and throw yourself around, well I do anyway.

It's what I'd do, in bouncy bouncy ceroc type dancing, I'd definately throw loads of multi spins in because quite frankly, theres no musicality going off in the dance because it's just thump thump, so it's move move move, hence the ways for a follow, or indeed a lead to express themselves are limited, why not spin? It's different and it's definately a skill.

However, in a blue dance/environment I rarely do more than a double spin, I base my spins on the speed of the music and length of breaks etc.. During my dances with woodface, I've noticed he indeed does the same which shows to me, he has musicality. It might not be to the level as some other forumites who are jumping down his throat, but the guy's having a go and for that I say :respect:

Keep on spinning Lee.

Jamie

cheers Jamie.

I think some people forget that there is more than Blues music out there. It is something that would happen more in the bouncy room than blues.

David Bailey
12th-June-2007, 02:30 PM
But a few post ago, you were saying Amir leads without sight or touch. :what:
No, I said I'd seen him lead without those. He led. A step. And he wasn't spinning at the time.


Is Amir God like?
Hmmm.... Possibly. I think that calls for a poll... :devil:

Caro
12th-June-2007, 02:32 PM
I think you're all getting a bit too "let's diss woodface cause we can"...

(snip)

....some other forumites who are jumping down his throat, but the guy's having a go and for that I say :respect:


spoilsport. How are we going to entertain ourselves while we're bored at work if we're not allowed to play with Woodie's throat ? When he is so nicely asking for it as well.... :wink:

MartinHarper
12th-June-2007, 02:36 PM
Nope - follower-multi-spinning has the same problems, for the same reasons.

One difference is that the leader can take advantage of the time to move into closed position, or even interrupt the multi-spin.

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 02:36 PM
{snip}

You know what, There are some valid point there.

First off, knowing where your partner is....

I have said before about I don't spot. Since I have said that, technique has developed alittle and whilst I still don't spot, as I slow down, I reference things on the last few spins.

The power from the spins actually somes from a mixture of momentum, BlueEyes lead and me pushing off of her, hence It's mainly done from a catapult.

The things of moving. I don't know. Will have to study that at some point and experament, but it is a good point. Could also be that it was about 4am Monday morning :wink:. There are times when I go off balance. Was going to edit the first 2/3 spins I did out just leaving the good ones in but thats just cheating isn't it? I know when it's going majorly of balance and just stop.

David Bailey
12th-June-2007, 02:38 PM
I think you're all getting a bit too "let's diss woodface cause we can"...
Nope, we're getting a bit "let's diss woodface coz he's talking absolute rubbish".

I've been very very tolerant of people spouting rubbish, and if you look at my initial responses to his first posts, you'll see that.

But after a while, you get this insane* urge to actually point out that he's talking rubbish.

* Because it's clearly wasted effort.

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 02:44 PM
Nope, we're getting a bit "let's diss woodface coz he's talking absolute rubbish".

I've been very very tolerant of people spouting rubbish, and if you look at my initial responses to his first posts, you'll see that.

But after a while, you get this insane* urge to actually point out that he's talking rubbish.

* Because it's clearly wasted effort.

It's what you make of it DJ.

Chef has raised some good point and so has Jamie.

For a sec, get Tango out of your head and thing about the bouncy room. Think of some quickish songs. Some hip hop, disco, pop. Think about the diffferent dance style that is required to dance to these tracks than you would use in a blues room.

I belive that real dancing skill is not just about contact and technique, it is also about the ability to go in to one room and dance your socks off, then go in to another and still dance at the same level but with a different style.

That would actually be the one bit of advice I give to people, spend time dancing to as much different music as you can.

Double Trouble
12th-June-2007, 02:47 PM
Woodface has so much enthusiam and so much potential it would be a shame if he didn't realise that potential. What I think woodface needs is private lessons with a professional dancer.


Sorry Woodface but I agree with this comment 100%.

You are a great dancer, but you could be soo much better (you could be one of the best, in my opinion):flower:

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 02:56 PM
Sorry Woodface but I agree with this comment 100%.

You are a great dancer, but you could be soo much better (you could be one of the best, in my opinion):flower:

:blush: Maybe one day.

Aleks
12th-June-2007, 02:58 PM
:blush: Maybe one day.

with some technique :wink:

straycat
12th-June-2007, 03:02 PM
Broaden your mind with dancing.

So.... having had time to mull it over - have you tried out any of what I was suggesting? Just curious...

Lee Bartholomew
12th-June-2007, 03:04 PM
So.... having had time to mull it over - have you tried out any of what I was suggesting? Just curious...

To be honest, not yet had time. Danced last night but wasn't really the time or place for it.

Dancing again on wendensday but that is for a demonstration so might try and have a 'techniques' session in the front room on Thursday.

fletch
12th-June-2007, 03:11 PM
I belive that real dancing skill is not just about contact and technique, it is also about the ability to go in to one room and dance your socks off, then go in to another and still dance at the same level but with a different style.

That would actually be the one bit of advice I give to people, spend time dancing to as much different music as you can.


:yeah:

this is my intention. but we don't all wan't the same :flower:

Just seems to me at times on this forum, people don't seem to respect that we wan't different things form dance, :worthy: live and let live :flower:

Tango is fine if thats what you wan't, and not much else,:eek: but it does limit your ability to comment,:rolleyes: with any first hand knowledge if you don't experience other styles, I like the new funky style music been played. :clap: I would like a dance with you to that DJ :cheers:

and before its mentions I tried Tango with Ian at Southport and CrisA tried at Ashton's on Friday.:sick:


:flower:

straycat
12th-June-2007, 03:17 PM
To be honest, not yet had time. Danced last night but wasn't really the time or place for it.

Dancing again on wendensday but that is for a demonstration so might try and have a 'techniques' session in the front room on Thursday.

Do let me know how you get on - as I said, I hope you find it helpful.

Chef
12th-June-2007, 03:30 PM
The power from the spins actually somes from a mixture of momentum, BlueEyes lead and me pushing off of her, hence It's mainly done from a catapult.

I can seen that the power from the spin comes from a MIXTURE of sources. It was late at night and it was a bit of fun - which I can see. But if you really want BlueEyes to lead and for you to truly follow then you must allow your leader to make thier mistakes so that they can learn from them. As a follower that means only following what is led. On your video this was a late night bit of fun and it doesn't really matter. What you do later will depend on what you want in your future in terms of BlueEyes ability to lead and your ability to follow. If you "help" too much in your follow then BlueEyes will never learn to lead and you will never learn to truly follow.


The things of moving. I don't know. Will have to study that at some point and experament, but it is a good point. Could also be that it was about 4am Monday morning :wink:. There are times when I go off balance. Was going to edit the first 2/3 spins I did out just leaving the good ones in but thats just cheating isn't it? I know when it's going majorly of balance and just stop.

So it was 4am and probably were probably not at your best(s). Yes, you could have editted it. I think the only person you would have cheated would have been yourself though. People learn from their mistakes rather than their successes.

If others see things that they think are mistakes they can offer their opinions and advice and you can mull over and evaluate that advice. You may decide that some of the advice has merit and take it on board and other stuff you don't value and don't take on board. Most people won't mind you deciding not to take on board their advice provided you a) give it proper consideration beforehand and b) don't tell them they are talking rubbish. You can give people advice but you can't make them take it. Once you have given the advice your involvement is over unless the recipient chooses to come back to you.

As for Amir being a dance god. I believe he was a national MJ and AT champion before he even came to this country. He spent a few years teaching in this country where his lessons used to always start with movement and spinning excercises and always contained the technique that lay beneath a move. He then started a 3 year degree in dance with Ballet Rambert where he lived and breathed dance all day every day for those three years. I have seen no evidence that that has changed since he has graduated. To my knowledge he has been to Argentina twice for month long AT training.

There is a good possibility that Amir knows SOMETHING about dance that may be useful to you. It may not be the style you covet but he sure knows something about human movement, dance and music.

BTW. What you feel as chippy self promotion on the forum will probably seem funny to your friends that know you but to some on the forum it can come across as arrogant and abusive. IMVHO let your dancing do your talking, it will talk louder than you ever can. I have seen you dance and Like Andy McG I can see you have potential. How you choose to realise that potential is up to you

Ghost
12th-June-2007, 03:32 PM
Put it another way, can you lead your partner whilst spinning?
Yup.

Or at least I know people who can (Taz and Dizzy spring to mind :respect: )

I read a while back about how silly guys felt offering their hand every time the lady came round in a multi-spin. So I tried staying very focussed on the connection and found I could keep my hands down and only offer on their final spin. (It's too subtle for me to explain, but might make sense if you play around with it)

However because it is so subtle, I'm very focussed on the connection.

She won't tell me, but I'm pretty certain Taz did a spin of her own whilst I was spinning in a dance where she was leading and I had my eyes closed :devil: . Assuming I'm right then we had enough connection to feel her doing her spin whilst I did mine with my eyes closed. (I could of course be wrong :blush: )

Amir leading a lady without touch with her eyes closed :respect: Ok I can think of two ways to do it :devil: - any idea how it was done?