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Gadget
8th-August-2003, 12:33 PM
Inspired from all the talk of what actually constitutes an advanced dancer and how to make sure that the level of dancer equates to the level of workshop/dance:

Assuming you could do everything that would make you an 'advanced' dancer, what would you like to see in a workshop?for example....
<li>Kenetics - flowing moves together and using one move to enter another
<li>Musicality - finding the counter-beats, breaks, melody, lyrics and really "listening" to tracks
<li>Styling - body language and shapes that can be used to emphisise your dance
<li>Lead Following Lead - reading where your lead will take your partner and making best use of it
<li>Body Leads - hands on forearms, shoulders, hips to lead rather than just hand to hand
<li>Floorcraft - recognising the space you have to work with and keeping within it
<li>Telepathy - non contact dancing, leading without touching and how to lead through breaks

{These are things that I would like to be able to do better; most of them are already workshops, but the idea is to refine the concept of them to an 'advanced' level}

Chicklet
8th-August-2003, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
<li>Musicality - finding the counter-beats, breaks, melody, lyrics and really "listening" to tracks
<<

musicality - Connellyesque visions of Trampie bashing out Maries Wedding on an old piano shouting "appreciate" :D
NB - I KNOW this is not what it is all about.

Heather
8th-August-2003, 03:47 PM
:rofl: :rofl: Telepathy!!!!!!

I'm beginning to think that some members of this Forum are losing what tenuous hold they ever had on reality!!!:wink:

Sorry, must dash off to see if my Spirit Guide is free for the Glasgow dance tomorrow evening !!! :rofl:

:hug:
Heather.

Chicklet
8th-August-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by Heather
:rofl: :rofl: Telepathy!!!!!!

I'm beginning to think that some members of this Forum are losing what tenuous hold they ever had on reality!!!:wink:

Sorry, must dash off to see if my Spirit Guide is free for the Glasgow dance tomorrow evening !!! :rofl:

:hug:
Heather.

reality sucks.:innocent: 'speshly on a Friday afternoon!!

see you tomorrow!!!!!:D :D :

CJ
8th-August-2003, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
reality sucks.:innocent:

Yeah, but you are better.:devil:

Gadget
8th-August-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Heather
I'm beginning to think that some members of this Forum are losing what tenuous hold they ever had on reality!!!:wink:
{says she with the "remember, you are not a salmon" tag line...}
Telepathy is defined as moving things with the mind. When you are trying to lead without physical contact, what else are you using? I cannot think on another more apt word to describe it, can you?

Franck
8th-August-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Telepathy is defined as moving things with the mind. Nope :D
That would be telekinesis!
Telepathy, is the ability to read minds, and I can see that would be very useful...

I am pretty sure that it happens a lot in fact :nice: , thinking of recent dances :devil:

Franck.

michael
8th-August-2003, 04:57 PM
Sorry Gadget but i fail to see the connection between Heathers tag and Telepathy.

Salmon do not use telepathy, they have a lateral line they use for senses etc.

Gadget
8th-August-2003, 05:36 PM
picky picky picky. :na:
I'm sure that telekenesis and telepathy would both come in handy on the dance floor... Franck, who can you get to teach this one? {;):D}

Heather
8th-August-2003, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by michael
Sorry Gadget but i fail to see the connection between Heathers tag and Telepathy.

Salmon do not use telepathy, they have a lateral line they use for senses etc.

Thanks Michael, personally I can't see the connection either and I've mean trying to communicate telepathically with Gadget for the last hour!!!!Obviously, he needs practice!!!:rofl:
Never mind, I'll consult my crystal ball andmaybe figure it out by myself!!!

The salmon reference is actually from the KitKat advert - you know the one where the guy describes how the salmon heroically swims upstream, against all the odds, to the place of it's birth and then promptly snuffs it. I think the message is 'don't let life/work kill you, give yourself a break!!! (A kitkat):wink:
But then I'm sure I don't have to state the obvious to the few remaining 'sane' Forum members!:wink:

:hug:
Heather.

Heather
8th-August-2003, 06:29 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
picky picky picky. :na:
I'm sure that telekenesis and telepathy would both come in handy on the dance floor... Franck, who can you get to teach this one? {;):D}

Perhaps Franck should combine one of his future workshops with a Psychic Fair!!!:wink:

Heather.

DavidB
8th-August-2003, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
When you are trying to lead without physical contact, what else are you using? Your eyes? Your voice?

I've led several ladies in freestyle into beginner moves like a first move and a yoyo without holding hands. The lady picks up so many clues from the man's shaping and hand position that it is relatively easy to lead. (I started doing it when someone told me I was leading one move with my hand, but a different move with my body.)

There is also a technique called 'flashlighting' that builds on this. You imagine you each have a torch shining out from your solar plexus. The idea is to keep this torch illuminating your partner. Obviously this doesn't work for spins, but you can do a surprising amount with this idea. It also gives a look that you are dancing together.

A true telepathic lead is when you do nothing with your hands, or your body, you don't say anything, and you don't have a routine. It can work when you know your partner so well that you think of the same ideas. I've seen it done, but I can't even come close to it.

And can someone explain the salmon?

David

Gadget
8th-August-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Heather
I've mean trying to communicate telepathically with Gadget for the last hour!!!!Obviously, he needs practice!!!:rofl:
I was wondering why I kept having those strange thoughts and lust for chocolate...:D

The salmon reference is actually from the KitKat advert
I know; it just seems a surrealy obvious statement, like "remember; when the lights go out, it's harder to see." or "remember; pain hurts." or "remember; for a fish to swim, it needs water."...

Perhaps Franck should combine one of his future workshops with a Psychic Fair!!!
I never understood why they have posters up advertising those things - I mean, surley if they are psycic then people would just know :wink:

Originally posted by DavidB
I've led several ladies in freestyle into beginner moves like a first move and a yoyo without holding hands.
I've often 'shadow' led when my partner throws themselves out of reach (and not just the novices ;)), but it would be nice to have a workshop dedicated to developing/improving this sort of thing.

Tiggerbabe
8th-August-2003, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I've often 'shadow' led when my partner throws themselves out of reach (and not just the novices ;)), but it would be nice to have a workshop dedicated to developing/improving this sort of thing.


well funnily enough Gadget .............:wink:

Saturday 16th August:

10.30am 'til 12.30pm: Lead and Follow Technique - David and Lily Barker

See you there? :hug:

Lounge Lizard
9th-August-2003, 12:10 AM
I've often 'shadow' led when my partner throws themselves out of reach (and not just the novices ;)), but it would be nice to have a workshop dedicated to developing/improving this sort of thing. [/B][/QUOTE]

I have danced a whole routine without touching my partner (no drops tho) plus taught it at weekend events and as an ice breaker at dances, we even considered taking it to Blackpool.

The lady I was dancing with reckoned she could do the dance without any contact, so we tried it and it worked.

turned out to be great for attracting the crowd.

the class was split 50/50 with those that enjoyed it and the doubters (nothing new there!).

It makes you really focus on your partner and although sometime verbal leads were given, majority of the moves were 'shadow led'

Fran
9th-August-2003, 03:29 PM
[

It makes you really focus on your partner and although sometime verbal leads were given, majority of the moves were 'shadow led' [/B]

I really enjoy shadow dancing and also dancing with my eyes closed. I find it very relaxing and I agree with you Mr Lizard it really helps focus on your partner and in my case concentrate on following.

fran

Lounge Lizard
9th-August-2003, 03:55 PM
Originally posted by Fran
I really enjoy shadow dancing and also dancing with my eyes closed. I find it very relaxing and I agree with you Mr Lizard it really helps focus on your partner and in my case concentrate on following.

fran

could this be a basis for a future workshop?
p

DavidB
9th-August-2003, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
could this be a basis for a future workshop? Please keep these ideas coming - we have 2 hours to fill in Perth!!!

Lounge Lizard
9th-August-2003, 11:02 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Please keep these ideas coming - we have 2 hours to fill in Perth!!!

I hear there are some good assessments down there to while away the hours.

dance ideas -
shadow dancing
Lead blindfolded (well we reckon we can do it with our eyes closed)
Snowball class - one teacher does a move, then another etc.
great at events with lots of teachers.
Dancefloor craft - boy do some dancers need this.
Different styles for different music (same moves tho)

development of advanced moves - from beginners onwards.
Dance shape - circular or linear, close or big, Latin or 'the bounce'

Gadget
11th-August-2003, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by Sheena
10.30am 'til 12.30pm: Lead and Follow Technique - David and Lily Barker
See you there? :hug:
Try and keep me away! :D
What I was actually referring to was not so much the "Lead and Follow Technique" {although I have no idea exactly what this will entail} but more of how to read your partner and convey your intents when you are in a break. I think that with a regular partner you could develop subtle visual leads that looked like part of the dance - what I'm trying to avoid is when a break is lead, the look of two people dancing at the same time {or the lady dancing and the man watching} and progress it to two people dancing together.

DavidB
11th-August-2003, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
but more of how to read your partner and convey your intents when you are in a break. The way I'm planning the lessons at the moment, this is more likely to be covered in the Musical Interpretation workshop.

TheTramp
11th-August-2003, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
The way I'm planning the lessons at the moment, this is more likely to be covered in the Musical Interpretation workshop. You plan lessons :confused: :confused:

Novel idea. Must try that sometime :rolleyes: :D

Steve

Gadget
11th-August-2003, 12:26 PM
Another workshop idea that I think would be good is one that focuses on making an entrance and 'starting' to dance:
One of the first revolations to me as a beginner was that the dance did not have to start by walking onto the dance floor, catching the beat and doing a semi-circe:step-back. This is such a waste of an entrance - and we all know that first impressions are vital.
There is the rare {very rare} occasion that I start with a complete beginner by the 'semi-circles', but most of the time I use the first 'lead onto the dancefloor' move to set the tone for the rest of the dance.
Your dance does not simply start when you find a blank space on the floor, it starts when you offer your hand and the lady takes it; from here you lead her onto the dance floor and into the dance in one smooth movement. {well, that's the theory anyway :wink:}

Lounge Lizard
11th-August-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
You plan lessons :confused: :confused:

Novel idea. Must try that sometime :rolleyes: :D

Steve

So what was that piece of paper with a list of moves you turned up with at Lindsays workshop - sorry that constitutes planning.

It also fringes on being organised!

TheTramp
11th-August-2003, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
So what was that piece of paper with a list of moves you turned up with at Lindsays workshop - sorry that constitutes planning.

It also fringes on being organised! Nah. That was the shopping list for the week :D

Steve

Lounge Lizard
11th-August-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Nah. That was the shopping list for the week :D

Steve

Looked more like a 'pick up' list to me!

michael
11th-August-2003, 02:13 PM
"Planned" shopping list was that??? And why not

Interesting point re: possible workshop by Gadget. this going onto the dancefloor and starting by other methods. Could those that have been dancing for just a few months do the workshop as well. Seems a good idea with perhaps (my wee suggestion) we could learn how to finish properly as well!!!

Surely the start and finish are fundamentals that we should at least know how to do properly. Then we can add to our long list of what we still have to do. But at least we could get ther start and finish right.

Lounge Lizard
11th-August-2003, 02:17 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by michael
[B]"Planned" shopping list was that??? And why not

Seems a good idea with perhaps (my wee suggestion) we could learn how to finish properly as well!!!

I have been teaching that one fo 5 years!

Franck
11th-August-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by michael
Interesting point re: possible workshop by Gadget. this going onto the dancefloor and starting by other methods. Could those that have been dancing for just a few months do the workshop as well. Seems a good idea with perhaps (my wee suggestion) we could learn how to finish properly as well!!! I have looked with a lot of interest at the shopping list :wink: all the things that are considered advanced, and would make great workshops.
All the points above, are being taught every month at regular Intermediate or Style workshops.
A case in point is how to start / finish the dance. A great topic, but in itself, not sufficient for a full day workshop, however, at every Style workshop I have taught recently, we have spent a lot of time on that subject, with some great ideas / variations.

Other ideas like shadow dancing (which I usually refer to as 'air' dancing), Spinning, blindfolding and Dance shape - circular or linear, close or big, Latin or 'the bounce' are also taught from Beginners workshops onwards, all the way to Intermediate / Style workshops.

It probably is a failure to advertise the content of those workshops, but it seems everyone who looked at the above and thought they would like to do that, should look closer to home and book an Intermediate / Style workshop ASAP (and possibly apply to be a stand-in man / woman as a refresher Beginners' workshop... so much to learn that you thought you knew :wink: )

Franck.

Gadget
11th-August-2003, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Franck
A case in point is how to start / finish the dance. A great topic, but in itself, not sufficient for a full day workshop,
Perhaps not a full day for each individually, but I'm sure that you could spend a morning on starting and at least the afternoon on finishing.
From all the workshops I have been on {admittedly limited to a very small number} I found that the actual "moves" are really suplimental to the concept behind the workshop; they are just examples to give you good practice into how the concept can be applied to 'real' dancing. The concepts can be gone over in 5 min, it's the practice and fine-tuneing{sp?} of these to put them into practice that expands a workshop to fill the time slot.

at every Style workshop I have taught recently, we have spent a lot of time on that subject, with some great ideas / variations.
This is it exactly - "general" workshops get side-railed by concepts and ideas that, while excelent and worth delving into, detract from the main point of a specific workshop. "Advanced" workshops would (I hope) remain focused on the single concept and not divert onto other ideas - I would hope that it would be pointed out where this concept can be used in conjunction with that one, but not dwelt uppon.

Graham
11th-August-2003, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Perhaps not a full day for each individually, but I'm sure that you could spend a morning on starting and at least the afternoon on finishing. I think you need to bear in mind that the format of a workshop is to teach a new thing, practise it, get feedback from the teacher, practise some more, etc. Perhaps you'd want to spend this amount of time on these aspects, but I think most people would get INCREDIBLY bored spending a day ONLY dancing the first or last 10/20 seconds of various tracks!

Gadget
12th-August-2003, 10:33 AM
Originally posted by Graham
...but I think most people would get INCREDIBLY bored spending a day ONLY dancing the first or last 10/20 seconds of various tracks!
I think that if you were dancing to the first 10-20sec of tracks all the time, then you would get really bored. You only get bored if what you are doing is repetative and you are not learning anything new as you go; I can think on at least six different styles to enter a floor with, then you have the variables of the amount of space on the dance floor, hand led on with, known or unknown partner, waiting for a partner's hand, navigating the dance floor to a space, starting with a bang or easing in, lead/follow not making an entrance... and this is before you add any elements of musicality.

You could also add elements of how to ask for a dance (both sexes) - I think that practice and being told that it's OK to ask may remove a few wallflowers from the walls :wink:

Chris
12th-August-2003, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
I think that if you were dancing to the first 10-20sec of tracks all the time, then you would get really bored. You only get bored if what you are doing is repetative and you are not learning anything new as you go; I can think on at least six different styles to enter a floor with, then you have the variables of the amount of space on the dance floor, hand led on with, known or unknown partner, waiting for a partner's hand, navigating the dance floor to a space, starting with a bang or easing in, lead/follow not making an entrance... and this is before you add any elements of musicality.

You could also add elements of how to ask for a dance (both sexes) - I think that practice and being told that it's OK to ask may remove a few wallflowers from the walls :wink:

I think I have to agree with Gadget on both points - asking how to dance and moving onto the dance floor could easily take a half day.

Dance is a conversation. Inspire, compliment, entertain, amuse your partner, invite them into your world for the next three minutes, set (or suggest) the tone of interpreting the music by your manner, body language. Draw from classics - look at how Fred Astaire romances a partner onto the dance floor (even one he hasn't the slightest interest in outside the dance), look at the rich traditions of tango often acted out in the dance.

This is just *one* take on it, and, as gadget says, even before you add more dance-related elements such as musicality. Others may prefer a more social, laid back approach. But there is so much that can be covered, both for giving beginners confidence (in some taxi consolidation classes we would even get beginners to rehearse asking for a dance) and for advanced dancers who may have touched on this sort of stuff in ballet or contemporary dance.

I'm really interested to learn more on this.

(Other stuff on Gadget's hit list - how about sending this off to top visiting guest teachers?)

Graham
12th-August-2003, 11:20 AM
I am in violent agreement about the amount of stuff there is to learn in this area. My point was questioning whether a workshop was necessarily the best format for learning it.

Lindsay
12th-August-2003, 11:36 AM
Agree with Gadget/Chris/Graham- there's a huge amount of stuff in this area.

You should invite along the Relationship Academy (http://www.relationshipacademy.co.uk) to relate basic interpersonal skills/principles to dance. They did a presentation at the Scottish Swing Riot and it was extrememly interesting and successful.

TheTramp
12th-August-2003, 11:40 AM
You mean a quick nod of the head from on the dancefloor to your next intended vict....partner isn't the way to go?

So that's where I've been going wrong.....

Steve

Lounge Lizard
12th-August-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
You mean a quick nod of the head from on the dancefloor to your next intended vict....partner isn't the way to go?

So that's where I've been going wrong.....

Steve

You mean you have to nod your head, surely not!

All day workshop to walk on and off the dance floor - sorry not for me.

I would be surprised if the interest in this subject was reflected by dancers paying for the workshop.

Imagine the scenario: A record finishes (hopefully without the end being cut out or two tracks mixed in) - the traffic onto and off the dance floor is like the first day of the January sales, so stylish walk on's are somewhat restricted.
You prowl the edge of the dance floor, find your victim (sorry partner) and lead her to the only empty space over 20' away - to impress you get her step turning across the dance floor you get to the spot with a smug look on your face.
Your partner has stopped spinning (but the room hasn't) and behind you is a trail of devastation caused by you both crashing into every dancer in your path.
You console your fellow dancers by advising them it is ok as you learnt the technique in a workshop!

However if it was for Showcase routines then....

CJ
12th-August-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Graham
violent agreement

:what: :what: :what: :what:

Gadget
12th-August-2003, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Your partner has stopped spinning (but the room hasn't) and behind you is a trail of devastation caused by you both crashing into every dancer in your path.
You console your fellow dancers by advising them it is ok as you learnt the technique in a workshop!
:D
That's not meant to happen then ?? Oh dear. :what:
That's why I included "navigating the dance floor to a space" in the list of stuff.

I agree with Graham that perhaps the classic "workshop" is not the best method of conveying these ideas; I think that the teaching method and subject matter would have to change to a more informal "pub discussion with examples" sort of thing.
And LLizard has a point about paying for a workshop that, while improving your general dancing, will not really add to any floor craft, repertoir or style.

The "Exiting" the dance concept I was thinking on was more on timing your move to finish with a flourish, dip, drop, pose... on the last dying chords of a track rather than saying your thank-you's and sharking for your next partner.

Franck
12th-August-2003, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I think that if you were dancing to the first 10-20sec of tracks all the time, then you would get really bored. You only get bored if what you are doing is repetative and you are not learning anything new as you go; Yes, you would, and I'm sure that any decent teacher could devise an interesting workshop around it, though the example you give are more to do with Musical interpretation than starting the dance.
I am pretty sure that what we learnt with Adam in Aberdeen, and what David and Lily are about to teach on musical interpretation on Saturday, will do more in 2 hours to help you start / finish the dance than a full day workshop learning every single variations.

As I said before, on a typical Style workshop, I would spend half an hour on the intro / finish. Not to teach every possibility, but to open people's eyes to the possibility of varying the intro. The rest will depend on the partner, the track you're dancing to and as Peter (Lounge Lizard) says, the condition of the dance floor :wink:

I also agree with Peter that few people would be willing to pay for a whole day workshop on that topic alone, but I could be wrong... Though I'm not sure that would be the best area to focus efforts on! Most people have a lot to learn on the dance itself, never mind walking on / off the floor :D

Franck.

Lounge Lizard
12th-August-2003, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
:D
The "Exiting" the dance concept I was thinking on was more on timing your move to finish with a flourish, dip, drop, pose... on the last dying chords of a track rather than saying your thank-you's and sharking for your next partner. Now THAT is the bit I have been teaching for years (no Steve not sharking your partner) plus the technique on how to pick the correct beat in the music for the drops or big finish.

I am all in favour of the pub discussion, anthing that results in a bottle of bud in my hand is ok with me!

Heather
12th-August-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I am pretty sure that what we learnt with Adam in Aberdeen, and what David and Lily are about to teach on musical interpretation on Saturday, will do more in 2 hours to help you start / finish the dance than a full day workshop learning every single variations.

I also agree with Peter that few people would be willing to pay for a whole day workshop on that topic alone, but I could be wrong... Though I'm not sure that would be the best area to focus efforts on! Most people have a lot to learn on the dance itself, never mind walking on / off the floor :DCouldn't have said it better myself!!! And no Franck you are not wrong, so don't book me in for any workshop purely on starting and finishing. :wink:

:hug: :kiss:
Heather,
XX

Lounge Lizard
12th-August-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I am pretty sure that what we learnt with Adam in Aberdeen, and what David and Lily are about to teach on musical interpretation on Saturday, will do more in 2 hours to help you start / finish the dance than a full day workshop learning every single variations.Talking of which I cant think of a better way of leaving any dance floor than the attached.

TheTramp
12th-August-2003, 03:17 PM
You'll be in trouble with all the ladies now Peter.

You cut off half of Lily's shoe in that photo!!!

Steve

Lounge Lizard
12th-August-2003, 03:22 PM
I think I lost more than the feet!
Try again