Innovative Dancers / Instructors

[Gus]

Simple question ... where are they?

In the 'good old days' .... ok about 3 yaers ago, we seemed to have an embaressment of riches. Nigel and Nina were adapting Blues to MJ, Viktor was spreading the word about Salsa fusion, Amir was introducing Jango. From a dancer perspective Dan Baines was still to be seen with his incredible hiphop style and James Geary was to be seen amazing his surrounding dancers by the moves he just seemd to create on the fly. In Scotland, James and FC were starting to meld his naturaly street style and her line dancing background into their Ceroc. All these chaps and chapesses brought something new to the scene and the dance world was better for it.

Where are me now? We still have a plethora of solid, good instructors, WCS is developing somewhat apart from MJ but I don't see much real innovation. Possibly the one bright star remains Marc. After three years or so of seeing him dance he still amazes me. I would pay more money for an hours DVD of him just freestyleing than any DVD by any instructor ... even J&T.

So .. do you know any real innovators or is the dance scene in a stage of consolidation?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Marc who? any clips on the web?

[Gus]

Marc who? any clips on the web?Marc Forster ... as in Marc and Rachel. Living legends ... Ceroc instructors in Phil Roberts empire. usualy known for his Cuban Blues workshops and DJing. Haven'y you heard? All the best instructors live north of the Watford Gap.:whistle: :whistle:

[Ghost]

I'd say Amir's still going strong. Jango's still evolving happilly. :grin:

[Gus]

I'd say Amir's still going strong. Jango's still evolving happilly. :grin:
Yup ... thought about that after I'd posted :blush:

[Lee Bartholomew]

Marc Forster ... as in Marc and Rachel. Living legends ... Ceroc instructors in Phil Roberts empire. usualy known for his Cuban Blues workshops and DJing. Haven'y you heard? All the best instructors live north of the Watford Gap.:whistle: :whistle:

Ahhh that Marc. Not been fortunate enough to see him dance yet but always hear good things.


What about Jamie?

[Andy McGregor]

I think the problem with all the innovations Gus has described is that they are all aimed at people who have already learnt the "Ceroc Stylee". The innovations of the past are for people who have gone as far as they can at Ceroc and would like to progress in some way. I think those people are now trying WCS and do not need new MJ innovations.

IMHO there is a quiet revolution going on. And it's not being driven by the stars. It's us guys who are running weekly classes. There's plenty of us teaching a smoother, slightly more technical, version of MJ. It's a bit like WCS without the &. I'm certain we're not the only people teaching it, Nicky & Jim are and so is David Plummer. There's a couple over in Bournemouth who I think are teaching it too.

The difference is quite marked from the standard Ceroc. So much so we've had people come to our classes because they've seen people dance our, smooth 'n' slotted way, asked the people where they learnt and started to attend our classes. These people are so different it really disrupts the lesson to have to point out the bounce is not required. People who have learnt with us from scratch do not have the bounce to start off with so they do not need a cure.

Maybe I should set up a conversion course for these bouncy circle dancers :whistle:

[Marc Forster]

I'd say Amir's still going strong. Jango's still evolving happilly. :grin:

:yeah: It's not just the content within his classes (which is superb) but for me, what stands out is his method of delivery.

Being in the room during the filming of his classes at Blaze was a real education.

Without a doubt Amir, you are the coolest dude in school :waycool: .

[David Bailey]

Marc who? any clips on the web?
Good grief... Almost as much a wf classic as "David Franklin - what does he know about aerials" :rofl:

As for Amir:

:yeah: It's not just the content within his classes (which is superb) but for me, what stands out is his method of delivery.
Absolutely - it's layered, that makes it accessible to dancers at any level.


Without a doubt Amir, you are the coolest dude in school :waycool: .
Yeah, but I'm still not keen on the new haircut. Possibly I'm just jealous.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Good grief... Almost as much a wf classic as "David Franklin - what does he know about aerials" :rofl:


Marc could have been any Marc going. I guessed after i posted it could have been him. I don't hang around the Trendy venues in london, I hang around the ones in the west (where most of the ceroc champs are based :whistle:)

Would like you to find me that quote, Don't think it was said like that was it??:angry:

I didn't know who David Franklin was as I have only been dancing 16 odd moths and so was not about to see the champs from the bygone years. :wink:

[David Bailey]

Marc could have been any Marc going.
There could be loads of Francks and Amirs, too.


Would like you to find me that quote, Don't think it was said like that was it??:angry:
I would, but I suffer from terminal can't-be-botheredness.


I have only been dancing 16 odd moths
I'm going to manfully resist searching out all the occasions you've said that, and placing them all in a thread. Because that would be Evil.

Almost as Evil as posting abusive videos on Youtube, in fact.

[straycat]

Would like you to find me that quote, Don't think it was said like that was it??:angry:


Here, I believe (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/332870-post14.html).


You ob don't know all that many aerials or drops.
Different wording, similar sentiment, from where I'm standing...

[Andy McGregor]

Here, I believe (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/332870-post14.html).


Different wording, similar sentiment, from where I'm standing...:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I'd give you rep but I still need to spread it around.

Woodface posts like MJ was invented 16 months ago. The saying goes something like "he who does not know history is doomed to reapeat it" woodface is a living, breathing example of this. He's come on here and started posting like a seasoned dancer - and then he uses his 16 months of experience to account for his mistakes. It's one or the other, woodface.

I think that wooface is like a puppy in the way he understands the world. It's quite refreshing in a weird and annoying way as it looks at the world of MJ as if it was all shiny and new - rather like it would be for you if you were a puppy.

[David Bailey]

Here, I believe (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/332870-post14.html).

That's the one. Well found.

So, not exactly what I said, but pretty much equivalent meaning.

As a general point: woodface, I'm aware that it may feel like everyone's having a go at you - but, really, it's simply done in reaction to your continuous foot-in-mouth posting syndrome.

Most of the posters on this forum are welcoming, patient, and well-informed - for example, David Franklin (obviously I'm not including Andy McGregror, of course :na: ). It's worth displaying a little humility in the face of experience.

You're an early-intermediate dancer; clearly a talented one, but there's a lot of talented new dancers out there.

You're clearly intelligent, so I can only assume that you want to be seen as "controversial". But there's controversial, and there's troll-like.

[Lee Bartholomew]

That's the one. Well found.

So, not exactly what I said, but pretty much equivalent meaning.

As a general point: woodface, I'm aware that it may feel like everyone's having a go at you - but, really, it's simply done in reaction to your continuous foot-in-mouth posting syndrome.

Most of the posters on this forum are welcoming, patient, and well-informed - for example, David Franklin (obviously I'm not including Andy McGregror, of course :na: ). It's worth displaying a little humility in the face of experience.

You're an early-intermediate dancer; clearly a talented one, but there's a lot of talented new dancers out there.

You're clearly intelligent, so I can only assume that you want to be seen as "controversial". But there's controversial, and there's troll-like.

Whole thread on experiance somewhere so not going in to all that now.

Back to topic DJ or are you derailing another thread? :na:

There are IMHO quite a few good innovative dancers out there. Think the most noticable one is Jamie.

Central Alex and Lisa Richardson also seem to be doing alot within Ceroc at the mo to make it fresh and Funky.

Everyone will have their own definiton of Innovative based on what style they like to dance.

Someone who dances like they are on a trampoline might be exciting and innovative to someone who dances like tigger.

[David Bailey]

Back to topic DJ or are you derailing another thread? :na:
Yes, it's true. I'll try to avoid it in future.

Blimey, reprimanded by woodface for thread derailing, it's been a very weird week on the forum....


There are IMHO quite a few good innovative dancers out there. Think the most noticable one is Jamie.
No offence to Jamie, but he's just the only other prominent young forumite in this category.

There are a lot of other fantastic innovative dancers out there. James Geary, for example, is a pleasure to watch, because of the Lambada thing he's got going.

As for fantastic instructors, not so many - in fact, fantastic dancers are not always fantastic instructors, simply because a lot of what they do comes naturally.

I certainly don't think there are less good instructors than there used to be - in fact, I'd say there were more, simply because instructors generally don't get worse at instructing. We hope...

[Gus]

I certainly don't think there are less good instructors than there used to be - in fact, I'd say there were more, simply because instructors generally don't get worse at instructing. We hope... .... and with that beckons the possibility of a whole new thread ....

Re the mention of Alex, Jamie etc .... again I would say very good dancers ... but nothing new. THe funky thing has been around since Dan Baines hit the scene. Think Dan Slape and Adam & Tas are still doing something similar-ish but its no longer new nor that different to what hit the scene in the late 90's .... which was about 5 BWF translates as 5 years Before WoodFace

[Lee Bartholomew]

So my opinion that Jamie and Alex are good innovative dancers is poo pooed by Gus and David James because they dont agree. :rolleyes:

[Gus]

So my opinion that Jamie and Alex are good innovative dancers is poo pooed by Gus and David James because they dont agree. :rolleyes:No ... In the opinion of Gus and DJ they are not innovative dancers. Gus and DJ didn't comment on your opinion ......... though we could go off-thread and wonder if DJ and Gus's opinion outweigh WF as he's been around for five minutes and they have both been dancing since the last millenium :whistle:

[David Bailey]

So my opinion that Jamie and Alex are good innovative dancers is poo pooed by Gus and David James because they dont agree. :rolleyes:
:confused:
OK, where did I say that Jamie is not a good innovative dancer? I'd love to see that quote.

Because, silly me, I thought I said:


No offence to Jamie, but he's just the only other prominent young forumite in this category.
("this category" being "young and innovative dancers").

But I'd love to see your evidence for me saying this.

In truth, I've not seen Jamie dance much, so I couldn't say what his style is like.

[David Bailey]

they have both been dancing since the last millenium :whistle:
Christ, I feel depressed and old now :tears:

[Lee Bartholomew]

No ... In the opinion of Gus and DJ they are not innovative dancers. Gus and DJ didn't comment on your opinion ......... though we could go off-thread and wonder if DJ and Gus's opinion outweigh WF as he's been around for five minutes and they have both been dancing since the last millenium :whistle:


:rolleyes: Yeah Gus, I bow down to your superior knowledge and opinion.

Just correct me everytime in wrong eh? :rolleyes:

[CJ]

:rolleyes: Yeah Gus, I bow down to your superior knowledge and opinion.

Just correct me everytime in wrong eh? :rolleyes:

Even Gus doesn't have that much time on his hands!!!!!

[Gojive]

I was extremely impressed by Russell Saxby's 'Smooth Grooves' class at Prestatyn - another up and coming star teacher? :waycool:

[Gus]

I was extremely impressed by Russell Saxby's 'Smooth Grooves' class at Prestatyn - another up and coming star teacher? :waycool:Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo :tears: :tears: Don't build his ego up any more! Took him to Bromborough on Thursday night. Despite the language barrier (Cockney v Souce) he managed to communicate ok and was rarely off the floor. He was the subject of MUCH admration.

Seriously though ... I think Russ is a very good teacher ... but not innovative. He teaches a style that is becoming increasingly common ... due to some good teaching, but I don't think its a step in another direction. Ready to be corrrected on this though.

[Martin]

As I said on a previous thread - Woodface , you need to get out more... :whistle:

What I was meaning - travel, see the Ceroc/MJ world, take lessons from the best...

Travel the country, even try other countries...

For example Nigel, who has been mentioned, travelled extensively, learning from all he could... before he even was thinking of competing or teaching :flower:

[Gojive]

Nooooooooooooooooooooooooo :tears: :tears: Don't build his ego up any more! Took him to Bromborough on Thursday night. Despite the language barrier (Cockney v Souce)

"Souse"...what's that then, eh? eh? eh? :wink:




Seriously though ... I think Russ is a very good teacher ... but not innovative.

Yeah I guess so - but hey! He taught a class of moves that I actually managed to not only learn in one go, but also to retain for use in my freestyle weeks later...now that's innovation to me! :D

[Whitebeard]

Yeah I guess so - but hey! He taught a class of moves that I actually managed to not only learn in one go, but also to retain for use in my freestyle weeks later...now that's innovation to me! :D

In my case it'd be bladdy miraculous !!

[Gadget]

Simple question ... where are they?

~We still have a plethora of solid, good instructors, WCS is developing somewhat apart from MJ but I don't see much real innovation.

~So .. do you know any real innovators or is the dance scene in a stage of consolidation?
I don't know what you mean by "Innovative":

Doing 'new' things? I suggest that the only reason you don't see new things is that you're getting a bit long in the tooth yourself ;) - You have been exposed to MJ for a while and what may seem fresh and new to others, you have seen before by some of the 'old school'.

Locally I am still inspired by Lisa, Freya, Caro, Tramp (when he's not off globe-trotting) - Innovation to me is inputting something 'extra' into a dance to make it stand above the rest of the crowd - their are only so many sources to draw uppon for this 'extra' - can you suggest any new ones?

(I would love to see more 'street' and 'street-running' style stuff; an area I don't think has been exploited to it's full... perhaps it needs a bit more fitness and flexability than I have though :tears: )

[David Bailey]

Doing 'new' things? I suggest that the only reason you don't see new things is that you're getting a bit long in the tooth yourself ;)
I wish to God people would stop saying this... :tears:

Personally, I don't agree with Gus's initial comments, I don't believe the level of innovation within MJ is at an all-time low. I reckon the lowest point so far was around 1998 - but then, you could argue that's when N&N started their whole Blues thing, so it's all subjective really.

I also think that "innovative dancers" and "innovative teachers" are not always directly related, although there is probably some degree of correlation between the two.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I wish to God people would stop saying this... :tears:

Personally, I don't agree with Gus's initial comments, I don't believe the level of innovation within MJ is at an all-time low. I reckon the lowest point so far was around 1998 - but then, you could argue that's when N&N started their whole Blues thing, so it's all subjective really.

I also think that "innovative dancers" and "innovative teachers" are not always directly related, although there is probably some degree of correlation between the two.


It all depends on your perception of innovative. For me there are people who are innovative, but they are not seen so by others.

Also is there much diffrence between innovative and inspiring?

[David Bailey]

Also is there much diffrence between innovative and inspiring?
Yes, I think so - someone can be inspiring by doing (for example) nothing but standard Ceroc-style moves, but doing them superbly well. Of course, you could argue that the only way to be inspiring doing standard Ceroc moves is to be innovative... :devil:

But "inspiration" is subjective, and "innovation" is more objective, in my view.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Yes, I think so - someone can be inspiring by doing (for example) nothing but standard Ceroc-style moves, but doing them superbly well. Of course, you could argue that the only way to be inspiring doing standard Ceroc moves is to be innovative... :devil:

But "inspiration" is subjective, and "innovation" is more objective, in my view.

Guess that is part of the reason we have ceroc-x in the champs. :grin:

[David Franklin]

But "inspiration" is subjective, and "innovation" is more objective, in my view.Although in MJ, an awful lot of "innovation" is basically taking ideas and concepts from another area of dance and incorporating them into MJ. The same could be said for many other dances, of course. And there's still genuine innovation involved in blending the styles. But that's not really my point.

There was a time when you could throw in a couple of hip-hop moves into a MJ routine, and everyone would be "Wow, that's so original!". But now, a combination of factors (competitions, weekenders, DVDs, internet forums, and visiting teachers from the US) mean that there's a lot more cross-fertilization. Everyone's seen hip-hop, latin, tango already and so it takes a lot more to really stand out from the crowd. But I think we've got a lot of dancers now who would be thought of as innovative if you transported them back to 1998.

[Twirly]

If there is a lack of innovation at the moment - is this necessarily a bad thing? Could it just be that the innovations of the last few years are still progressing and developing?

Several names have been mentioned who have obviously made a huge contribution to the MJ scene, and continue to do so - that's obvious from the reactions to various workshops/opportunities to dance with these leading lights. And they're still continuing with what they've started.

Maybe the MJ scene will consolidate these innovations (and the new, outstanding, dancers absorb them) before the next batch develop? Possibly the newer dancers already mentioned will become innovative (in a formal way - developing new styles and teaching them) once they've learnt more from what currently exists?

[Martin]

I reckon the lowest point so far was around 1998 - but then, you could argue that's when N&N started their whole Blues thing, so it's all subjective really.



Very subjective, as in 1998 N&N had a range of workshops, including musicallity, dancing to fast and slow music, blues and others. It was a high point in the SE England where I at the time ran a dance company and was one of the first to employ them, after their first champs entry, where they took out showcase. [I had booked them before the champs, but did benifit from the fact they were current champs]

The workshops created numbers until then unknown - they made cash and I made a sh1tload of cash. :D

I would say that is ground breaking..... :cheers: