Can you push Intermediates too far? (Jive Nation youtube clip)

[Gus]

OK ... I know I've posted before on a similar theme .... but saw a bit of video on YourTube that made me think again.

Its (apprently) the intermediate lesson at Jive Nation. I lnopw that part of their Marketing brand is all about 'pushing' intermediates .... but is this a shove too far? THe clip is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lyd_My_q2M). Maybe its just my dotage but the first and the third move look waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy above what I'd expect a class to get. Can't imagine many lasses would enjoy doing the last move a few times in a row ... what is it, about 6 clockwise turns? :eek: :tears:

[Andy McGregor]

This lesson makes my intermediate lessons look rather tame - it's a lovely and dramatic routine. However, I pitch my intermediate lessons at the dancer who has just been promoted after 6 weeks of beginners lessons. Ask yourself the question, could somebody who has had 6 beginners lessons get this lesson in 30-45 minutes? My answer is a resounding NO!

I'm reluctant to say this is an advanced lesson. But that's down to semantics. I don't think that advanced dancing is about moves, it's about how you do them and how you fit them to the music. So, I suppose I would say this routine contains too many moves and too much spinning to be taught all in one go as an intermediate routine at a regular week-night lesson. And the multiple spin thing is totally inappropriate to be taught where it is repeated over and over and over again. I'd teach it with two turns and then tell/show people they can do more turns as dictated by the music/partner/space.

[David Bailey]

Its (apprently) the intermediate lesson at Jive Nation. I lnopw that part of their Marketing brand is all about 'pushing' intermediates .... but is this a shove too far? THe clip is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lyd_My_q2M).
Jive Nation are focussing on a slightly different market to Ceroc, I think.

Seamus is better placed to answer this than me, but I'd guess it's more "fast and furious, flashy visuals, routine-oriented, showy and sporty" than Ceroc - in other words, more like Ceroc in Australia I guess.

I hasten to add, I'd avoid doing any of those moves, they're very much not me - but they probably need to be judged within that context of what Jive Nation are aiming for.

I reckon woodface would love the "7-spin" move though :rofl:

[David Bailey]

Oh, and can I say :clap: to Jive Nation for having the guts to post their lessons on Youtube? Unlike other organisers (eg Ceroc) who seem to think that the lessons are Masonic rituals or something :rolleyes: (tip: teachers, you're not actually passing on the secrets of the ages...)

So it's great to see some MJ clips actually available - the only way MJ as a dance form will be recognised is if it gets this sort of exposure. Let's hope we see more of this.

Andy, want to step up to the plate? :devil:

[Gus]

Unlike other organisers (eg Ceroc) who seem to think that the lessons are Masonic rituals or something :rolleyes: (tip: teachers, you're not actually passing on the secrets of the ages...)Yo DJ ... think there are actualy some Ceroc workshop demos by Messr Oliver and some 'Blues' by Howard on YourTube. HOWEVER, one thing in common with both the Ceroc vids and the vid for JNation (as said in another thread) ...they would all positively deter me from going :sick:

[Twirlie Bird]

:clap: What an awesome class. Is it too much for an intermediate? I guess this depends on how we categorise an intermediate. Somebody whose been dancing six weeks, six months, eighteen months? :confused: I think a good teacher bases their class around the actual people doing it. I don't believe in basing everything around the very new intermediate as the older intermediates don't get pushed. :mad: It's all about balance and huge respect to those teachers who get that balance right. :respect:

[Gus]

: I don't believe in basing everything around the very new intermediate as the older intermediates don't get pushed. :mad: It's all about balance and huge respect to those teachers who get that balance right. :respect:Everyone has a right to their opinion. From a teacher perspective I can think of very few classes where that routine would be appropraite (IMHO). Even at the Monday Jango classes, which was argualbly the collection of the best dancers in a class, I don't think we covered anything like that. In NZ they may have advanced classes approaching that kind on thing ... but even there you wouldn't put 6 turns together ... thats a schoolboy error.

Having said that I did like the second move. Looks a lot like some of the moves that Marc teaches.

[TA Guy]

Watching that lesson was like watching a time warp for me.

I'm not saying every night was like that, far from it, but one or two nights did naturally gravitate into becoming what might be described as 'advanced intermediate' nights back then.
That type of lesson was not uncommon. It suited a time where the music was generally a touch faster, and moves perhaps held slightly more importance than they do now.

If Jive Nations philosophy is 'fast and furious - move based', it might even make a weird kind of sense if their lessons looked a bit like lessons from that time.


But I agree, that lesson looks way too advanced for the 6-week group. If that who it's for. Maybe it was for more experienced dancers ?

[ducasi]

Looks like a good class. I'd be interested to know for sure whether they actually taught the last multi-spin move as demo'ed, as the drop in the demo seems to have become a more basic dip during the actual teaching. It looks a bit much to teach repetitively, and would need a lot of space.

That said, while "beginner intermediates" may struggle a bit, I didn't think it is pushing general intermediates "too far".

If all intermediate classes were aimed at dancers who have only been dancing 6 weeks, how would you expect them to progress beyond this stage?

[tsh]

It's classes like that which convinced me to give up lindy. I can't see any hint that she's actually being led in that routine, and it's not (imo) suited to social dancing.
Since I'm not interested in competing, I have very little interest in being able to see routines like that to copy. This isn't a class, it isn't teaching anything (other than how to injure people)

Sean

[Gus]

That said, while "beginner intermediates" may struggle a bit,May struggle?? I think I'd deffo struggle and I've been dancing for considerably longer than 6 weeks. I'd also be really concerned if I wasn't do that move as a fixed couple. When Viktor first introduced that move in his workshops back in 2002 I think we used spotters as well.

[David Franklin]

But I agree, that lesson looks way too advanced for the 6-week group. If that who it's for. Maybe it was for more experienced dancers ?To be honest, the last move (the 6 turn one) looked like it was beyond the teachers - the lead misses the hand catch on the first demonstration and looks horribly rushed the 2nd time around as well.

I like a lot of what Jive Nation seems to be trying to do, and I like a lot of the technical aspects of how Modern Jive is taught in Australia. But I'm not too keen on this idea that "if we take a normal routine, and squeeze 3 extra turns into each move, it will automatically be better, even if it means even the teachers can't really do the moves properly and under control". (Not based only on this routine, I have seen other classes where I felt the same thing).

[TA Guy]

To be honest, the last move (the 6 turn one) looked like it was beyond the teachers - the lead misses the hand catch on the first demonstration and looks horribly rushed the 2nd time around as well.

I like a lot of what Jive Nation seems to be trying to do, and I like a lot of the technical aspects of how Modern Jive is taught in Australia. But I'm not too keen on this idea that "if we take a normal routine, and squeeze 3 extra turns into each move, it will automatically be better, even if it means even the teachers can't really do the moves properly and under control". (Not based only on this routine, I have seen other classes where I felt the same thing).

I'd be interested if they taught that six spin move exactly as demo'ed as the drop was changed to a dip by the looks of it. Technically very difficult to do that six spin move smoothly. Great move for certain types of music passages tho.

I love fast dancing (energy permitting), and that type of move has it's place, that 'fast to stop' effect is very dramatic. Which I guess is the point. Perfect for that more accented/faster 'build-up' to the break. It wouldn't be the move itself that would be the problem, but the timing; the first dummy hand change (not getting whacked there as well :)), the behind back transfer and the stop. Lot of exact timing needed.
I'm not sure what happened the first time, the lead just allowed the follow to travel and didn't close the space I think, in any case, whole load of timing that has to be perfect at pace. Not easy at all. But dramatic move, I need a victim.... :)

[Sheepman]

Am I the only one that was shocked by the "head back first" teaching of the dip?

Greg

[SteveK]

OK ... I know I've posted before on a similar theme .... but saw a bit of video on YourTube that made me think again.

Its (apprently) the intermediate lesson at Jive Nation. I lnopw that part of their Marketing brand is all about 'pushing' intermediates .... but is this a shove too far? THe clip is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lyd_My_q2M). Maybe its just my dotage but the first and the third move look waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy above what I'd expect a class to get. Can't imagine many lasses would enjoy doing the last move a few times in a row ... what is it, about 6 clockwise turns? :eek: :tears:


Jive Nation are focussing on a slightly different market to Ceroc, I think.

Seamus is better placed to answer this than me, but I'd guess it's more "fast and furious, flashy visuals, routine-oriented, showy and sporty" than Ceroc - in other words, more like Ceroc in Australia I guess.

Just had a look at the video, and the moves taught look _just_ like some I've learnt in the Advanced classes they have on the first Wed of the month here in Le Step in Brisbane, Australia! I'd definitely NOT classify it as an intermediate lesson, at least not in the UK Ceroc "six lessons or more" category :really:

Does Jive Nation have an "intromediate" category? Something for those people able to competently master the beginner moves, but not ready for the silly stuff yet?

I am enjoying learning these kind of moves, but the opportunity to freestyle them is limited :sad:

[David Bailey]

Does Jive Nation have an "intromediate" category? Something for those people able to competently master the beginner moves, but not ready for the silly stuff yet?
Dunno - I've not been to any JN classes.

From what I hear, they're "standard format" (1 beginner, 1 intermediate) however.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Was this a normal class or a freestyle class.

IMO most intermediate classes are not advanced enough and can end up concentrating on the 6 week area.

Problem is, the intermediate classes ideally would accomodate the 6 week area and the 6 year area. Impossible so I guess the only way is to either have two classes going (think Peter Phillips (Lounge Lizzard) done an advanced class whilst there was a intermediate class in Hastings)

or

Swap and change so some classes are more taxing than others. :grin:

[ducasi]

Am I the only one that was shocked by the "head back first" teaching of the dip?
I was a little surprised by that, but again, she was teaching it as a fairly small dip, not a full drop, so I don't know how bad her advise really is...

[ducasi]

May struggle?? I think I'd deffo struggle and I've been dancing for considerably longer than 6 weeks. I'd also be really concerned if I wasn't do that move as a fixed couple. When Viktor first introduced that move in his workshops back in 2002 I think we used spotters as well.
Which move?

Again, besides the difficulty in the teaching process, I don't see that routine as being especially advanced, though certainly too much for your average newly-graduated beginner-intermediate.

It's only the last move that looks difficult, though I'd like to give it a go... Must see if I can put it onto my phone and see if I can find a victim at JJ's on Tuesday... :devil:

[Lou]

It's only the last move that looks difficult, though I'd like to give it a go... Must see if I can put it onto my phone and see if I can find a victim at JJ's on Tuesday... :devil:Ach... if only I were in Scotland. :D I've been taught variations on that last move in a couple of different LeRoc intermediate classes. It's a standard Back-whatjumicallit (OK, so I'm losing my memory for names), with 3 spins and a handhold change at the end. Looks far trickier than it actually is. I'd be far more nervous about the drop, myself.

[Keefy]

Speaking as a beginner/intermediate... there is no way that I would get even close to that in a class, it would be a waste of my time and everybody else's if I tried it.

But I do think that Ceroc are missing a trick here - one that they can pick up from the Salsa mob. How many times do we hear experienced dancers saying that the intermediate class isn't challenging enough? Or beginners like me struggling with the advanced move normally put into the intermediates class to try and keep that advanced interest?

It's very simple - the Salsa crowd run THREE classes, quite often all on the same floor with no problems at all. Whilst I do like the separate beginners/intermediate classes at Ceroc I feel that there is a strong case for running parallel but separate intermediate/advances classes.

[Almost an Angel]

Speaking as a beginner/intermediate... there is no way that I would get even close to that in a class, it would be a waste of my time and everybody else's if I tried it.

But I do think that Ceroc are missing a trick here - one that they can pick up from the Salsa mob. How many times do we hear experienced dancers saying that the intermediate class isn't challenging enough? Or beginners like me struggling with the advanced move normally put into the intermediates class to try and keep that advanced interest?

It's very simple - the Salsa crowd run THREE classes, quite often all on the same floor with no problems at all. Whilst I do like the separate beginners/intermediate classes at Ceroc I feel that there is a strong case for running parallel but separate intermediate/advances classes.


I'm sure we've had this discussion before. I remember answering a thread saying that some places have or do already do this - see Ceroc Surrey at Surbiton, I know David Plummer does at Peterborough/Bedford and that's just off the top of my head.

Mr Harper can I have a harperlink. :flower: pretty please
Sorry I'm useless at searching and linking threads

Angel xx

[NZ Monkey]

This isn't a class, it isn't teaching anything (other than how to injure people)Really? I'd happily use every move shown in that class apart from the very last one, and I'd even use that if I knew my partner very well and thought she (and I :na: )would be up to trying it out.

One thing I will note - and I don't know if this was mentioned in the class when the camera was off - is that with moves like that last one the woman is taught to lead the ''arm over'' parts rather than the guy for her own safety (at least around these parts). The guy pretty much just lets her do her thing and follows himself for a while after setting it up.


Am I the only one that was shocked by the "head back first" teaching of the dip?It is only a dip, with no danger of Susies head hitting the ground. You'll note that in the clip they do specify that the lead needs to be slow and controlled so that the guy is supporting her the whole way down. It looks more dramatic with the head back first and up last. I'm sure Susie is capable of feeling when a big drop is coming rather than a ''tiny dip'' (an actual quote from the clip...).


To be honest, the last move (the 6 turn one) looked like it was beyond the teachers - the lead misses the hand catch on the first demonstration and looks horribly rushed the 2nd time around as well.Granted, although I wouldn't say he looked *horribly* rushed rather than a little rushed. Things don't always go to as well as we'd like them to.


That said, while "beginner intermediates" may struggle a bit, I didn't think it is pushing general intermediates "too far".

If all intermediate classes were aimed at dancers who have only been dancing 6 weeks, how would you expect them to progress beyond this stage?:yeah: My experience is that Down Under there is a more clear distinction between the beginners and the intermediate classes. A routine like this (minus that last move) would be entirely unremarkable in terms of difficulty here. Strokes for folks as they say.


Everyone has a right to their opinion. From a teacher perspective I can think of very few classes where that routine would be appropraite (IMHO). Even at the Monday Jango classes, which was argualbly the collection of the best dancers in a class, I don't think we covered anything like that. You wouldn't use a hammer to put in a screw either though. I have a huge amount of respect for the Jango crew and enjoyed many of the Monday classes myself, but stylistically the two groups are poles apart. Being a great dancer doesn't necessarily mean you posses every skill to the same level.

My 2p :waycool:

[SteveK]

Ach... if only I were in Scotland. :D I've been taught variations on that last move in a couple of different LeRoc intermediate classes. It's a standard Back-whatjumicallit (OK, so I'm losing my memory for names), with 3 spins and a handhold change at the end. Looks far trickier than it actually is. I'd be far more nervous about the drop, myself.

From what I remember, doing drops like that isn't actually that hard. (I'm at work & Youtube access is blocked here :sad: ) It's something I'd only try with a lady who knew what she was doing, and it's something that the follower almosts leads themself into; definitely something that she would only do if she was confident with the leader. It's also worth noting that (I think) the leader has a spare hand that can be used for support/security if needed in the drop.

However I definitely wouldn't have wanted to do it if I had only been dancing for "six weeks or more". :eek:

[David Bailey]

I have a huge amount of respect for the Jango crew and enjoyed many of the Monday classes myself, but stylistically the two groups are poles apart.
It'd be a very weird experience watching Amir teaching that routine, that's for sure :rofl:

[Twirly]

I've been thinking about this (could only watch the clip - no sound on work PC), and although I'd say it looks a little more difficult than the regular Wednesday intermediate class I do, it doesn't exceed it by much. I did a different intermediate class last night, and although I greatly enjoyed it, I was struck by how much more challenging the class is that I normally do. Last week's class (which I posted about elsewhere) had three lots of double spins and two (somewhat less dramatic) dips in it.

[David Franklin]

Granted, although I wouldn't say he looked *horribly* rushed rather than a little rushed. Things don't always go to as well as we'd like them to. Fair comment on "horribly", but the point remains that every time they demoed the move (only twice, I know), they didn't really execute that move very well(*). I don't really have a problem with that in an advanced class, but it seems rather inappropriate in an intermediate class.

(*) Actually, I guess one problem I'm having is that if I'm honest, I look at them doing that move and think "that looks ugly". But I'm not totally sure if that's entirely their execution or that I wouldn't like the way the move looks even if done perfectly.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Also you have to remember it's on video. Mistakes jump out at you alot more on film than they do when you are there watching.

Thats one of the reasons I like filming dancing so much. Thre is alot you notice, esp watching a few times round.

[Gus]

I think a point that hasn't been raised so far and yet is key to the whole thing is "How experienced are the students?". We've all seen hotshot teachers presenting advanced routnes far above the level of competence of the dancers. At JN, are the dancers truly 'advanced', up to Aussie/NZ advanced standards? If that is the case then they could probably cope. If they are just 'normal' intermediates then (IMHO) the routine will just produce a horde of move monsters who will unfortunately wreak havoc at other venues that they dance at. :(

[NZ Monkey]

At JN, are the dancers truly 'advanced', up to Aussie/NZ advanced standards? If that is the case then they could probably cope. If they are just 'normal' intermediates then (IMHO) the routine will just produce a horde of move monsters who will unfortunately wreak havoc at other venues that they dance at. :(The students aren't "advanced". The intermediate class is generally more capable than the standard Ceroc business model would produce, but I wouldn't go as far as calling them advanced.

For the record, I wouldn't call a lot of the dancers taking advanced classes here in Auckland ''advanced'' either. :devil:

The last move is too hard for the class to really get. I have no doubt about that. Despite that I don't mind too much that it's in there. Hindsight is 20/20 and all that, and we all make mistakes. I think it's probably a good challenge to extend people a little even if they don't really get it. If this was happening all the time then I'd worry but in my experience at Jive Nation this isn't the case.

The dip/drop is an interesting one. I've long held the view that the best places by far to teach these things is in regular classes, where proper technique and safety can be addressed and (more importantly) reinforced over time. The drop/dip might be considered too hard/technique intensive in a standard Ceroc class (in the UK), but there is nothing unusual about it's inclusion in an intermediate class in Australia - and it works very well for them.

Pretty much all the Jive Nation intermediates also dance at Ceroc venues in London and have at least a reasonable grasp of what they can get away with elsewhere (but idiots are everywhere as well unfortunately....). We'll have to wait to see if the moves monster hypothesis plays out that way or not.

The other moves in the routine are fine IMHO :flower:

[FirstMove]

...Elsewhere on the internet, there is a lot of discussion about this class. Too difficult, perfect or just the way we at Jive nation like to push everyone to be better dancers? Have a look and make up your own mind, all we know is that it was a great class! ...

Our opinions are valued :)

[Martin]

OK ... I know I've posted before on a similar theme .... but saw a bit of video on YourTube that made me think again.

Its (apprently) the intermediate lesson at Jive Nation. I lnopw that part of their Marketing brand is all about 'pushing' intermediates .... but is this a shove too far? THe clip is here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lyd_My_q2M). Maybe its just my dotage but the first and the third move look waaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy above what I'd expect a class to get. Can't imagine many lasses would enjoy doing the last move a few times in a row ... what is it, about 6 clockwise turns? :eek: :tears:

Standard Aussie intermediate stuff, and Susie is from Sydney, with a partner (I think it is Jason) who is less experienced....

Simon from Aussie also teaches there...

Just a taster from Sydney Aussie...

Yes wayyyy above what UK normally expects. Normal in Aussie :hug:
Give it a go Gus, push those boundries....

[David Bailey]

Yes wayyyy above what UK normally expects. Normal in Aussie :hug:
Oooh, get you :na:


Give it a go Gus, push those boundries....
Please don't make Gus push his boundaries, I don't think it'd be a pretty sight.


Our opinions are valued :)
We're on the internet? :eek: Blimey, when did that happen? :what: