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Ghost
7th-June-2007, 01:24 PM
Ok so lots of posts about how wonderful connection is in AT and WCS :clap:

Anyone want to have a go at explaining any concepts from AT, WCS (or any other dance really) that they find you can import directly into Ceroc? :flower:

Miguel
7th-June-2007, 01:42 PM
Ok so lots of posts about how wonderful connection is in AT and WCS :clap:

Anyone want to have a go at explaining any concepts from AT, WCS (or any other dance really) that they find you can import directly into Ceroc? :flower:
Connection (dance - Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_(dance))) Hope this helps, Mike.

Ghost
7th-June-2007, 01:57 PM
Connection (dance - Wikipedia) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connection_(dance)) Hope this helps, Mike.

Thanks. I was thinking more about how to apply it to Ceroc though, or any practice exercises that help develop connection :flower:

Miguel
7th-June-2007, 02:07 PM
Thanks. I was thinking more about how to apply it to Ceroc though, or any practice exercises that help develop connection :flower:
FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 6.0 (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/sensitivity.html) (Isn't Google wonderful)?

ducasi
7th-June-2007, 02:09 PM
Most of the connection technique I've come across in WCS exists in MJ too, though perhaps not taught as much.

One thing that is taught in WCS, and works immediately in MJ is to increase connection through your arms by lifting, drawing back, and dropping your shoulders. It also improves your posture.

Another aspect of WCS connection which I've been experimenting with in my MJ is the double-prep to lead a turn as the follower travels along their slot. Early results have been a fair number of confused followers, but that could be due to a lack of technique on my part, rather than misapplication of the technique generally.

One key difference between WCS and MJ that should not be copied between the dances, is that typically (I believe!) a WCS leader only leads movement on the 1, or when a definite change of direction by the follower is required. In MJ, being more free and uneducated, a continuous lead should be used (as much as is practical.)

Dave Hancock
7th-June-2007, 02:17 PM
One key difference between WCS and MJ that should not be copied between the dances, is that typically (I believe!) a WCS leader only leads movement on the 1, or when a definite change of direction by the follower is required. In MJ, being more free and uneducated, a continuous lead should be used (as much as is practical.)

Couple of things, firstly in WCS the lead doesn't tend to be on the one but is before the one, if you lead on the one then the follower has little chance and you'll dance pretty much off time.

Also I'm not really sure about the continous lead in MJ, I quite like to also lead this just before the one in a pattern and then more often then not let the lady do their thing.

Dave Hancock
7th-June-2007, 02:19 PM
One thing that is taught in WCS, and works immediately in MJ is to increase connection through your arms by lifting, drawing back, and dropping your shoulders. It also improves your posture.

:cheers: :cheers:
This is one of the best pieces of advice I've read on the forum and would strongly encourage all leaders and followers to actively think about their shoulders a bit more when dancing, using the up, back and down technique described by Duncan will give a much better connection with minimum effort from both parties.

Ghost
7th-June-2007, 02:20 PM
double-prep to lead a turn as the follower travels along their slot.
How does this work? (I haven't heard of double-prep before)

Dave Hancock
7th-June-2007, 02:23 PM
How does this work? (I haven't heard of double-prep before)
If done subtly it gives the follower a little warning and momentum, to be used sparingly though as often it's over prepped which has pretty much an opposite effect (it also requires connection and good shoulders)

Miguel
7th-June-2007, 02:31 PM
Thanks. I was thinking more about how to apply it to Ceroc though, or any practice exercises that help develop connection :flower:
Just found this - in depth FAQ (.pdf version) from the same author with entire chapter devoted to WCS. http://www.cs.utk.edu/~eijkhout/lead_follow.pdf

Ghost
7th-June-2007, 02:38 PM
If done subtly it gives the follower a little warning and momentum, to be used sparingly though as often it's over prepped which has pretty much an opposite effect (it also requires connection and good shoulders)

Sorry - I meant literally "how does it work?" ie how do I physically double-prep someone?


Just found this - in depth FAQ (.pdf version) from the same author with entire chapter devoted to WCS. http://www.cs.utk.edu/~eijkhout/lead_follow.pdf

Really glad I started this thread now - thanks:cheers:

ducasi
7th-June-2007, 03:25 PM
How does this work? (I haven't heard of double-prep before)
Typically (e.g. in a Ceroc spin) you prep spins by taking your follower the one way then spin the other.

In WCS typically you prep one way, then the other before spinning or turning the follower the first direction. Usually the preps go along with the "step-step" part of a pattern.

As Dave says, it needs to be subtle so as not to disturb the steps before the turn.

In my MJ, I do a lot of "lead along a slot and turn" moves – I've been trying to work in some double-preps into this in the past few days. I wonder though if my followers need to be in more of a WCS frame-of-mind for it to work successfully.

Ghost
7th-June-2007, 03:30 PM
In WCS typically you prep one way, then the other before spinning or turning the follower the first direction. Usually the preps go along with the "step-step" part of a pattern.
Ah, thanks

I wonder though if my followers need to be in more of a WCS frame-of-mind for it to work successfully.
I find something similar with Jango - it's easier if the follow's in that mindset

I've also noticed that WCSers dance MJ differently if they've just had a WCS dance.

Andy McGregor
7th-June-2007, 03:36 PM
Ok so lots of posts about how wonderful connection is in AT and WCS :clap:

Anyone want to have a go at explaining any concepts from AT, WCS (or any other dance really) that they find you can import directly into Ceroc? :flower:


Thanks. I was thinking more about how to apply it to Ceroc though, or any practice exercises that help develop connection :flower:Am I the only one who has noticed that Ghost wants the response to be specific to "Ceroc" as opposed to Modern Jive?

In my experience the connection at Ceroc classes in the South East of England is mostly about bouncing the hand/body up and down and stepping back until both arms are locked out fully. I'm not saying this is correct*, it's just what I've observed as the connection at "Ceroc" classes.


*I might even be caught, on another occasion, in a different post, saying it's incorrect :innocent:

Ghost
7th-June-2007, 05:28 PM
Am I the only one who has noticed that Ghost wants the response to be specific to "Ceroc" as opposed to Modern Jive?

I had a Modern Jive dance last year :sick: :blush: :tears: :really:

While not a complete train-wreck it was close.

I've learned my lesson. I do Ceroc; it's the Ceroc Scotland Forum, so Ceroc applications please :flower:

Course if you want to give MJ examples I could apply to Ceroc, that'd be much appreciated :cheers:


In my experience the connection at Ceroc classes in the South East of England is mostly about bouncing the hand/body up and down and stepping back until both arms are locked out fully. I'm not saying this is correct*, it's just what I've observed as the connection at "Ceroc" classes.

Ah well I go to Bow, where things are a bit smoother :respect:

MartinHarper
7th-June-2007, 11:39 PM
Typically (e.g. in a Ceroc spin) you prep spins by taking your follower the one way then spin the other. In WCS typically you prep one way, then the other before spinning or turning the follower the first direction.

The other difference is that the preps happen at twice the speed (to the same song). In West Coast both preps take place in the same number of beats as a single Modern Jive prep:
MJ: prep on 1, spin on 3.
WCS: prep on 1, prep on 2, spin on 3.

Multiple preps work fine in Modern Jive. For example, the Arm Jive is just a triple prep for a clockwise spin. Double-speed preps typically don't work in Modern Jive, because followers aren't used to being lead on the even beats, and because it's non-standard.

straycat
8th-June-2007, 08:54 AM
Double-speed preps typically don't work in Modern Jive, because followers aren't used to being lead on the even beats, and because it's non-standard.

It can work - this is one of the places where the lindy connection work that I've done definitely pays dividends. To make it work, you need to establish and 'test' a good continuous connection - with a follower who is unfamiliar with this, it can take a fair bit of playing around with connection during the dance. Some will get it quite easily, some won't - but if they do, one can quickly expand this to leading changes of direction on every beat for some moves.

I'm intriqued by what Ducasi said about WCS movement only being lead on beat 1.
Lindy (as taught by most teachers I've worked with) uses a continuous connection - it took me quite a while to get to grips with keeping the connection all the way through a swingout, for example, rather than only engaging it when I thought I needed it - this is a very common mistake for people to make.

Another fun aspect with Lindy - very often, when the follower is 'doing her thing' - the leader supports this by keeping the frame / connection / tension there, and mirroring the forces that the follower creates - this can add momentum & energy to an improvisation which would be hard for the follower to do without support. Watching some of the WCS videos, it looks very much like they're using similar principles - anyone able to comment on this?

David Bailey
8th-June-2007, 09:00 AM
Anyone want to have a go at explaining any concepts from AT, WCS (or any other dance really) that they find you can import directly into Ceroc? :flower:
From AT - posture.

Head up, shoulders back, grounded, imagining the line running down your body - all that sort of thing. I've been working on that for the past month or two, and it's very hard to unlearn many years of bad habits :tears:

ducasi
8th-June-2007, 12:43 PM
I'm intriqued by what Ducasi said about WCS movement only being lead on beat 1.
Lindy (as taught by most teachers I've worked with) uses a continuous connection - it took me quite a while to get to grips with keeping the connection all the way through a swingout, for example, rather than only engaging it when I thought I needed it - this is a very common mistake for people to make.
I've heard a few WCS teachers say things like "you only lead at the start of the pattern" – the idea being that once the lady is in motion along her slot she doesn't need any extra lead. They don't then say, but I can only assume, that if you don't lead such things as turns, then your partner will never turn and never stop. :eek:

By dropping the lead (but staying connected) it allows your partner a greater chance to improvise and bring her own musicality to bear on the dance.

Things such as whips (aka swingouts) will need much more of a lead to achieve the turns and changes of direction, of course.

I just returned to a WCS class on Wednesday after a break of about a year. In that time I think I've gained a greater understanding of how WCS is meant to work, so I had a go at dropping the lead after the "1", and it worked very well – I still led turns and such, but didn't lead continuously, as I would normally try to do.

Gadget
8th-June-2007, 01:22 PM
Multiple preps work fine in Modern Jive. For example, the Arm Jive is just a triple prep for a clockwise spin. Double-speed preps typically don't work in Modern Jive, because followers aren't used to being lead on the even beats, and because it's non-standard.
Leading is leading is leading: the main problem with any lead is not giving the follower enough time to follow it; dosn't matter if it's double speed or half speed. The "prep work" in all moves should be done on the preceeding beat for the next beat's movement.

I was told this on a workshop very early in my dancing and thought "I have enough to worry about where my partner is now! never mind on the next beat!" It's taken me years to actually be able to put it into practice :tears: {but I think it's worth it, and one of the best peices of advice I've been given :D}

tanjive
25th-November-2007, 04:21 PM
One thing that is taught in WCS, and works immediately in MJ is to increase connection through your arms by lifting, drawing back, and dropping your shoulders. It also improves your posture.


I was just wondering why the shoulder needs to be lifted and then dropped. Why can't the lead in effect pivot around a vertical access through their solar plexis and take the connecting shoulder straight back (the other shoulder staying put) without the up and over?

Miss Flicts
25th-November-2007, 04:46 PM
In my experience the connection at Ceroc classes in the South East of England is mostly about bouncing the hand/body up and down and stepping back until both arms are locked out fully. I'm not saying this is correct*, it's just what I've observed as the connection at "Ceroc" classes.
:yeah: It's true. :sad: Sounds like it's different in other regions though.

ducasi
25th-November-2007, 05:23 PM
I was just wondering why the shoulder needs to be lifted and then dropped. Why can't the lead in effect pivot around a vertical access through their solar plexis and take the connecting shoulder straight back (the other shoulder staying put) without the up and over?
I'm not sure what you mean, but if you have your shoulders hunched forward, trying to move them back without lifting them first doesn't work so well. It also works best doing both shoulders at the same time, for aesthetic reasons, if not for the fact that you're likely to use both arms at some point during a dance.

Lory
25th-November-2007, 05:46 PM
One thing that is taught in WCS, and works immediately in MJ is to increase connection through your arms by lifting, drawing back, and dropping your shoulders. It also improves your posture.




:cheers: :cheers:
This is one of the best pieces of advice I've read on the forum and would strongly encourage all leaders and followers to actively think about their shoulders a bit more when dancing, using the up, back and down technique
I'll second that!

It make a massive difference to how you look too!

If only John Barns would listen to the advice! :yeah:

tanjive
25th-November-2007, 06:32 PM
Why do you need to lift the shoulder to take it back? Why can't the shoulder be on the same plane to the floor without going up before going back?

David Bailey
25th-November-2007, 06:52 PM
Why do you need to lift the shoulder to take it back? Why can't the shoulder be on the same plane to the floor without going up before going back?

Um, I think the description is simply "how to get to that posture" - i.e. up and around. AT teaches the same - I suspect ballroom does also. It helps lift the ribcage, tighten the diaphrapm, expand the torso, and other Good Things.

I don't think the drescription is of a move you should do during dance, it's just a good way to get to the correct posture, yes?

Fusioneer
25th-November-2007, 07:56 PM
Originally Posted by ducasi http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/images/ibulletin/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/land-1000-dances/12872-connection-wcs-mj-etc-post379401.html#post379401)
One thing that is taught in WCS, and works immediately in MJ is to increase connection through your arms by lifting, drawing back, and dropping your shoulders. It also improves your posture.


Um, I think the description is simply "how to get to that posture" - i.e. up and around. AT teaches the same - I suspect ballroom does also. It helps lift the ribcage, tighten the diaphrapm, expand the torso, and other Good Things.

I don't think the drescription is of a move you should do during dance, it's just a good way to get to the correct posture, yes?


:yeah: Totaly agree; plus taking a breath in as you raise the shoulders helps focus and relax you as you set your posture and builds the "frame" ready to lead or follow.

NZ Monkey
25th-November-2007, 08:47 PM
Most of the connection technique I've come across in WCS exists in MJ too, though perhaps not taught as much.I do wonder how much of a claim you can make to this if the technique is almost never taught in MJ though, or at least only by a handful of isolated teachers.

It seems to me that if there isn't a party line on the issue, and there isn’t a strong consensus on the way to teach it among the teachers (how can there be if it’s not taught often…?) then any similarities are likely to be more individual preference or interpretation than the Way, the Truth and the Light of MJ.


One thing that is taught in WCS, and works immediately in MJ is to increase connection through your arms by lifting, drawing back, and dropping your shoulders. It also improves your posture.As others have said :yeah:, although it’s possible to overdo this as well which nobody has mentioned. You don’t want to fall into the trap of folding your shoulders back military style, as this posture is just as bad as hunching forwards. Your shoulders should still be directly to the side of your ribcage.


Another aspect of WCS connection which I've been experimenting with in my MJ is the double-prep to lead a turn as the follower travels along their slot. Early results have been a fair number of confused followers, but that could be due to a lack of technique on my part, rather than misapplication of the technique generally.Here’s my take on it….

I much prefer the double prep method used in WCS. It takes less effort, it gives the girls more warning and lets them take more responsibility for their own balance which in turn makes it easier for them to style the turn up or play with it without them being accidentally pulled off balance.

It’s also so foreign to MJ dancers that they get horribly confused unless they know what you’re doing already. Even the ones with WCS experience aren’t likely to pick up that this is what you’re doing first time, because nobody else leads turns that way in MJ. I’m also not entirely convinced that it works with the usual footwork in MJ that well, as WCS dancers rarely turn on just one foot the way MJ ones do. I admit this last part is more a gut feeling than a reasoned argument. In other words, it all seems a little like shoveling the brown smelly stuff uphill considering you’re the exception and your partner needs to know that before it’ll work.



One key difference between WCS and MJ that should not be copied between the dances, is that typically (I believe!) a WCS leader only leads movement on the 1, or when a definite change of direction by the follower is required. In MJ, being more free and uneducated, a continuous lead should be used (as much as is practical.)I know why people say to only lead on the one, and if you’re talking about a simple pass this is true. Really though, it’s more a case of only leading when you need to. That might be only on the 1, or on the 1 and 3, or on 1, 3,5, 11, and 67. You rely on your partner understanding the ground rules* to do the work at other times.

*By which I do not mean know the patterns – just understand the conventions of the dance.

ducasi
25th-November-2007, 10:26 PM
I do wonder how much of a claim you can make to this if the technique is almost never taught in MJ though, or at least only by a handful of isolated teachers.

It seems to me that if there isn't a party line on the issue, and there isn’t a strong consensus on the way to teach it among the teachers (how can there be if it’s not taught often…?) then any similarities are likely to be more individual preference or interpretation than the Way, the Truth and the Light of MJ.
Well, if it works, isn't it valid technique? And if it works, and makes for a better dance (however you quantify "better") then it must be useful. Does it need to be taught? Is there one true way? Not so sure...

Take an example like "flash-lighting" – it's not taught in a typical MJ class, but it works, is valid, and IMHO, makes for a better dance.

Sure, some people might reject it as not their way of dancing MJ, but that's OK – doesn't stop it working for me.


On WCS-style double-preps...

Here’s my take on it….

I much prefer the double prep method used in WCS. It takes less effort, it gives the girls more warning and lets them take more responsibility for their own balance which in turn makes it easier for them to style the turn up or play with it without them being accidentally pulled off balance.

It’s also so foreign to MJ dancers that they get horribly confused unless they know what you’re doing already. Even the ones with WCS experience aren’t likely to pick up that this is what you’re doing first time, because nobody else leads turns that way in MJ. I’m also not entirely convinced that it works with the usual footwork in MJ that well, as WCS dancers rarely turn on just one foot the way MJ ones do. I admit this last part is more a gut feeling than a reasoned argument. In other words, it all seems a little like shoveling the brown smelly stuff uphill considering you’re the exception and your partner needs to know that before it’ll work.
I think I agree with you (not sure about the one-foot turns bit.) At any rate, I've stopped trying to double-prep. (I've also stopped doing WCS lessons. The two facts may not be unconnected.)


On leading only "on the one" in WCS...

I know why people say to only lead on the one, and if you’re talking about a simple pass this is true. Really though, it’s more a case of only leading when you need to. That might be only on the 1, or on the 1 and 3, or on 1, 3,5, 11, and 67. You rely on your partner understanding the ground rules* to do the work at other times.
Indeed, that's what I meant by "when a definite change of direction by the follower is required".

tanjive
25th-November-2007, 10:46 PM
I read the shoulder thing not as a self prep of your posture at the start of dance. But, to roll your shoulder back as you lead the follower forward. Rolling is really a decoration and not required for effective connection from the shoulder. That is why I was questioning its need.

Good posture is good for connection just not heard of this preparation trick. It is always preferable to lead from the center to pull your own arms back. I am sure a lecture on the merits of not leading from the arm is elsewhere on the forum. Of course if you keep getting advanced enough you begin some arm leads again in order to do effective dissasocation of the leads movement from that of the follower. Hopefully you know the proper use of at that point.

The longer I dance the more I find no rules are golden. Even never doing a semi cirle :whistle:

ducasi
25th-November-2007, 10:54 PM
I read the shoulder thing not as a self prep of your posture at the start of dance. But, to roll your shoulder back as you lead the follower forward. Rolling is really a decoration and not required for effective connection from the shoulder. That is why I was questioning its need.

Good posture is good for connection just not heard of this preparation trick.
Sorry – should have made this clearer – I meant as a pre-dance prep. I've been taught it in both MJ and WCS contexts.

NZ Monkey
25th-November-2007, 11:11 PM
Indeed, that's what I meant by "when a definite change of direction by the follower is required".Ah.....yes.

Rereading my post it looks like I'd ignored that statement, which wasn't my intention. :flower:


Well, if it works, isn't it valid technique? And if it works, and makes for a better dance (however you quantify "better") then it must be useful. Does it need to be taught? Is there one true way? Not so sure...

Take an example like "flash-lighting" – it's not taught in a typical MJ class, but it works, is valid, and IMHO, makes for a better dance.If it works and makes things "better" then go for it of course!

The thing is, a great proportion of technique relies on both partners understanding it to work, so I do think it needs to be taught. I agree that there’s more than one “true way”, but in terms of technique there needs to be a lot fewer ways than the total number of MJ dancers.

Flashlighting is great to help keep a visual and physical connection, and maintain a connected look throughout the dance. If one person isn’t doing it at all though it loses a large amount of the benefit in terms of connection and look. So while there is some benefit to it if only one person is doing it, it’s not even half what it would be if it were taught to everyone.

Geordieed
26th-November-2007, 09:35 AM
I much prefer the double prep method used in WCS.[/size]

Getting into the habit of double preps in WCS is not a good thing. It's only something that will have to be unlearned from your dancing when you come to progress in your dancing...

robd
26th-November-2007, 11:17 AM
Re: the Up, Back & Down shoulders thing - IIRC Robert Royston actively discourages this in one of his technique DVDs and suggests an alternative method for establishing optimal initial posture. He also suggests a number of other things that differ from the current preference of some respected teachers which all goes to show that there's no One True Way....


Getting into the habit of double preps in WCS is not a good thing. It's only something that will have to be unlearned from your dancing when you come to progress in your dancing...

Agreed - generally I prefer a single prep but I do find it easy to become lazy and fall into double prepping and it takes some concentration to get back into the 'direction on 1, prep on 2' mindset. Doesn't help when there are some followers who like to prep themselves on 1 & 2 regardless of what you're leading ...... :whistle:

Geordieed
26th-November-2007, 11:22 AM
Agreed - generally I prefer a single prep but I do find it easy to become lazy and fall into double prepping and it takes some concentration to get back into the 'direction on 1, prep on 2' mindset. Doesn't help when there are some followers who like to prep themselves on 1 & 2 regardless of what you're leading ...... :whistle:


Using the stretch within your connection to help illiminate the prep on '1'.