WCS or Tango?

[Twirly]

I think it's time that I branched out and tried out something other than just Ceroc if I want to develop my dancing. I don't feel that I need to go to Ceroc classes every single week now - I'm getting more out of going to freestyles.

I've often toyed with the idea of trying tango again (I did a little about three years ago), but I also read a lot on here about WCS, and since there's a course starting up at Clapham early next month, I'm wondering if I should give that a go. The nearest tango class to me is also on a Tuesday... so it's one or the other for now (and I don't want to get confused by trying to do both).

I know there are advocates of both styles on here, so I thought I'd canvas opinion as to what I might be likely to get out of each one in order to help me make my mind up. I'm looking to have fun, learn, develop my dancing, though I'm not sure in what direction.

What could each of these dance styles give me?

[frodo]

I think it's time that I branched out and tried out something other than just Ceroc if I want to develop my dancing.....

I've often toyed with the idea of trying tango again (I did a little about three years ago), but I also read a lot on here about WCS, and since there's a course starting up at Clapham early next month, I'm wondering if I should give that a go. The nearest tango class to me is also on a Tuesday... so it's one or the other for now (and I don't want to get confused by trying to do both).

...

What could each of these dance styles give me?

WCS is a bit trendy now, but it could be a fad - might be good to take the opportunities in WCS - Tango isn't going away.

I'd guess that a few weeks of WCS would be more beneficial to a follower, and a few weeks of Tango would be more beneficial to a leader, in terms of improving dancing generally rather than as a goal to dance those styles.

[Caro]

What could each of these dance styles give me?

for both of them you will develop your following technique , based on a set of different rules. They can both influence your MJ beautifully. You might get a bit more funky and playful if you do WCS, and a bit more subtle and dramatic if you do tango. Although WCS footwork and styling will tend to be easier to incorporate into your regular MJ (unless you dance regularly with jango people), IMO.

Go for the music you like best, you won't enjoy a dance if you don't like the music that goes with it.

[David Bailey]

What could each of these dance styles give me?
Well, how snooty do you want to be? :devil:

OK, seriously, it depends on what you want to develop. AT will develop one way, WCS will develop another.

In AT, you'll learn a lot about technique, posture, connection, following the body not the hand, and continuous following.

In WCS (I think) you'll learn a lot about styling, musicality, patterns, dancing in a slot, and so on.

They're both fairly painful learning curves, I believe.

One other thought - have you considered salsa?

[Caro]

In AT, you'll learn a lot about technique, posture, connection,

you'll learn that in WCS too :whistle:

[David Bailey]

you'll learn that in WCS too :whistle:
Yep, and in AT you'll learn styling, musicality, etc.

The point was to emphasis what both forms focus on. Blimey... :rolleyes:

[Caro]

Yep, and in AT you'll learn styling, musicality, etc.

The point was to emphasis what both forms focus on. Blimey... :rolleyes:

ooooh getting picky, aren't we :na:

Still, I feel it would be very wrong to say that WCS doesn't focus on connection and technique. I'd go as far as to say that it's the most important aspect of it, way before musicality and styling.
It's hard to say what you will develop more with each dance, as I said you will develop your following and dancing technique, but based on a different set of rules.

Or may be I just want to pick up a fight with DJ :devil:

[LemonCake]

Well since I'm just back from my first WCS class (one-two-trip-le-step, one-two-trip-le-step) I think it's a good variation from learning Ceroc. Totally different but still more related than tango would be, I think - tango always seems more ballroom-y & formal.

[Minnie M]

.........Go for the music you like best, you won't enjoy a dance if you don't like the music that goes with it.

:yeah: absolutely :yeah:

[Paul F]

Go for the music you like best

:yeah:

I gave up doing salsa after 2 and a half years because the music was just painful after an hour or so.
It was either that or take Spanish lessons :)

[JonD]

I've only done and watched a very little WCS so I'm not really qualified to comment - but since when did that stop me?! I have been dancing AT for 5 years so I'm a little more knowledgeable about that.

I think dancing WCS would do more to extend and invigorate your MJ, certainly in the short term. I've noticed that our local MJ scene has benefited enormously since regular WCS classes became available; we leaders are even more spoilt by having more really good followers to dance with. I know I'm going to have to "up my game" if I'm to do them justice! I'm told that it's having a similar, though less dramatic, effect on those leaders doing the classes.

At least superficially, the difference between MJ and AT seems greater than the difference between MJ and WCS so I imagine it would be harder to make a direct connection between AT and MJ skill sets. I was delighted by the connection, smooth grounded movement and opportunities for subtlety and expression in WCS during those few lessons I have done and would love to have the time and brainpower to learn it in addition to AT. Those followers who have surprised me with the change in their dancing have certainly taken those elements on board and added a new confidence, a willingness to "play", to their MJ that wasn't there before (in some instances, despite dancing MJ for several years).

As you'll know from your previous exposure to AT, the dance will certainly develop those same skills although I fear the "learning curve" will offer fewer early rewards. As David points out, it will also develop your ability to follow continuously - every element of every step or pivot is led and followed - in a way that I suspect WCS will not. I'd guess that, being slower tempo, both dances demand better balance than MJ although I suspect that AT places more of a premium on that skill; being able to maintain your own axis is essential.

I agree about the music - I stopped learning Salsa for the same reason as Paul F. AT music can be pretty obscure until you get used to it. I've grown to love it but there is, heresy of heresies, a lot of "Tesco Tango", which is downright awful, played at milongas. (That's no different to any other dance form, I guess; we all want to shoot the DJ sometimes).

I'm passionate about AT so part of me wants to scream "Dance AT" regardless of any other argument! AT is, to my mind, the most wonderful, passionate, sensual, intense, deliciously difficult and rewarding way to express emotions through movement to music with a partner. But then I haven't done many other dances.

Realistically I think WCS would make a greater impact on, and is a better "partner" for, MJ if that's what you're looking for.

[marty_baby]

I think it's time that I branched out and tried out something other than just Ceroc if I want to develop my dancing. I don't feel that I need to go to Ceroc classes every single week now - I'm getting more out of going to freestyles.

I've often toyed with the idea of trying tango again (I did a little about three years ago), but I also read a lot on here about WCS, and since there's a course starting up at Clapham early next month, I'm wondering if I should give that a go. The nearest tango class to me is also on a Tuesday... so it's one or the other for now (and I don't want to get confused by trying to do both).

I know there are advocates of both styles on here, so I thought I'd canvas opinion as to what I might be likely to get out of each one in order to help me make my mind up. I'm looking to have fun, learn, develop my dancing, though I'm not sure in what direction.

What could each of these dance styles give me?


Hiya Twirly,

Like JonD said, I reckon WCS would be a good idea. The Clapham class sounds interesting. Its a Ceroc thing isn't it? Hopefully the Ceroc happy culture, etiquette, Taxi dancers etc will all be place to give the class the right kick off.


martin x

[Spin dryer]

AT is, to my mind, the most wonderful, passionate, sensual, intense, deliciously difficult and rewarding way to express emotions through movement to music with a partner.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

[Miguel]

Can you make it to Fulham tonight?

[David Bailey]

Well since I'm just back from my first WCS class (one-two-trip-le-step, one-two-trip-le-step) I think it's a good variation from learning Ceroc. Totally different but still more related than tango would be, I think - tango always seems more ballroom-y & formal.
I wouldn't call AT "ballroom-y" or "formal" - but it's much more technique-oriented than most people are used to. CeeCee's first class in AT spent an hour simply forcussing on technique for walking forwards and backwards, for example.

I think it's probably true that there's more overlap between MJ and WCS, in terms of dancers, culture, and so on, and possibly also in terms of the dance itself. So the transition to WCS is possibly easier than to Tango.

I also think (from what people have said) that AT is a harder dance to master than WCS anyway, so that probably also makes the transition more difficult to AT. Also, there are some fairly poor AT teachers around, whereas I think most WCS teachers seem to be well-regarded.

Having said that, WCS in the UK seems to be "clumped" in a few specific areas, whereas AT is more evenly-spread out.

So yes - it really depends what you want to achieve.

But AT's better, and :na: to Caro...

[ducasi]

AT's great if you want to shuffle around the dance-floor looking serious (and at your feet.)

WCS is great if you want to play, have fun and look cool. (But be prepared to spend a lot of time not smiling, counting and feeling stupid until you get good.)

[David Bailey]

AT's great if you want to shuffle around the dance-floor looking serious (and at your feet.)
That's my aim in life, yes.


WCS is great if you want to play, have fun and look cool. (But be prepared to spend a lot of time not smiling, counting and feeling stupid until you get good.)
It sounds very much like salsa in that regard.

Interestingly, I don't think most MJ-ers who've learnt AT are trying very hard to convert others - whereas I see a lot of MJ-ers who've learnt WCS, trying to persuade other MJ-ers to learn. And I don't think there'd be a WCS scene in the UK without MJ, but I'm sure there'd still be a thriving AT scene without MJ.

Maybe AT is more of a personal journey? Or maybe WCS and MJ are closer than AT and MJ?

[Twirly]

Thank you for the input both here and by PM folks. Very useful - still weighing things up.


One other thought - have you considered salsa?

I've done a bit of salsa in the past, but never really got into it. Any particular reason you suggest it?


Can you make it to Fulham tonight?

Sadly no, nor next week and the week after I understand Paul is away so there won't be a WCS class. :(

[Paul F]

Sadly no, nor next week and the week after I understand Paul is away so there won't be a WCS class. :(

:( I am going over to the US that week unfortuantely - or fortunately, depending on how you look at it. :D


As for which dance to do.....tricky one.

I can only talk from a ballroom tango standpoint here. If that was the direct comparison (Ballroom Tango vs. WCS) I would suggest WCS purely for the social side of it.

AT, from what I understand as I dont do it, is much more sociable. In that case I would plump for whichever music genre you prefer.

[Paul F]

Then again, I've heard AT is really easy to learn and that even a baby could do it.

Doesnt seem much point


:D

[JonD]

Then again, I've heard AT is really easy to learn and that even a baby could do it.

Doesnt seem much point
It's just walking and the occasional pivot between steps; the sort of thing you do in every supermarket you visit. If you keep your eyes on the "basics range" on the bottom shelf while mentally totting up the grocery bill you've even got the "looking serious while watching your feet all the time" technique sorted. The music is like supermarket muzac as well.

By the way, isn't that WCS a sort of really slow Lindy for folk who have trouble moving quickly?

:D back!

[David Bailey]

Then again, I've heard AT is really easy to learn and that even a baby could do it.
Oh yeah?

Well I've heard that WCS-ers are all snooty snoot snoots. So there :na:

[David Bailey]

I've done a bit of salsa in the past, but never really got into it. Any particular reason you suggest it?
Salsa will also develop your dancing, in a different way - again, what it boils down to is personal choice.

So, if you want to develop the Wiggling Thing, for example, adding some Latin styling to your dancing, then salsa would be very good for that.

Salsa probably won't develop musicality much, however.

[Twirly]

So, if you want to develop the Wiggling Thing.

You've not seen me wiggle have you... I don't think it needs any developing :what: :blush: :rofl:

(I did a belly-dancing course last summer :wink: )

[Sheepman]

I think it's probably true that there's more overlap between MJ and WCS, in terms of dancers, culture, and so on, and possibly also in terms of the dance itself. So the transition to WCS is possibly easier than to Tango.

I also think (from what people have said) that AT is a harder dance to master than WCS anyway, so that probably also makes the transition more difficult to AT. Also, there are some fairly poor AT teachers around, whereas I think most WCS teachers seem to be well-regarded. I would agree with all that. Plus, in my (very limited) experience of AT, I would say you're much more likely to get worthwhile freestyle at WCS, so you'll progress quicker.

I would say (if the music is not a big issue for you) let your mentors be the deciding factor, go for teachers who's dancing and teaching inspires you, of course to appreciate that, you may have to shop around a bit.

Greg

[Lynn]

I would agree with all that. Plus, in my (very limited) experience of AT, I would say you're much more likely to get worthwhile freestyle at WCS, so you'll progress quicker. As a new follower in both styles over the past year or so I'd say exactly the opposite. Even when I've been places where there has been WCS freestyle and MJ dancers I know and dance MJ with. I've found it much easier to get dances and feel I'm making progress in following in AT.

I think it would be very different for a leader though.

[Sheepman]

As a new follower in both styles over the past year or so I'd say exactly the opposite. Well my observation is based on tango classes where either there isn't any freestyle after the lesson, (you get booted out of the class for the intermediate dancers to come in, after 6 months you may be invited to stay - and pay extra for that class of course.) Or the freestyle is so short and lacklustre that it's of little benefit.

Greg

[David Bailey]

Well my observation is based on tango classes where either there isn't any freestyle after the lesson,
That's pretty standard I think - Tango freestyles are mostly separate from the lessons. At most, there'll be a practica (practice) session after a class, but not usually a milonga (freestyle).

That's just the way AT lessons are structured; it doesn't really mean anything other than that. I assume, from what you say, that WCS lessons are more like MJ classes in format then?

[FirstMove]

I'd see the question as: "What will be the next trendy dance?"

You've missed the WCS and AT boats, and the Lindy and Cha-Cha ones sailed ages ago. By the time you've made any progress with any of these tricky dances, something else will have emerged.

[David Bailey]

I'd see the question as: "What will be the next trendy dance?"
There's an element of truth in that. For example, salsa seems to have lost its allure to MJ-ers over the past few years, I've no idea why.

MJ dancers, partially because they find it difficult to develop beyond a certain point in MJ, do tend to migrate to other dance forms a lot - more so than in other disciplines I suspect.

[Lynn]

Well my observation is based on tango classes where either there isn't any freestyle after the lesson, (you get booted out of the class for the intermediate dancers to come in, after 6 months you may be invited to stay - and pay extra for that class of course.) Or the freestyle is so short and lacklustre that it's of little benefit.

GregMy experience is pretty limited, a few one off classes here and there in Cambridge, London and Dublin - all of which had a practica/milonga after the class, (my classes in Belfast don't really count as we are such a small group) and an AT weekend. Slightly more I guess than my WCS experience! On every occasion I was asked by several people to dance, some I knew, most I didn't. Ok - not a lot of people, but as each request to dance means 2-3 tracks, it was always enough for my level to give me experience and push me a little.

Wheras I have sat at a WCS evening and been asked once, all evening. I know, I need to ask, but I also need a teeny bit of encouragement to get me going!

[Sheepman]

I assume, from what you say, that WCS lessons are more like MJ classes in format then?
Yes, nearly all the WCS lessons I've done have freestyle between beginners & intermediate lessons, and then plenty of freestyle afterwards. Cat's classes now also have a review class for beginners while the intermediate lesson is on.

Greg

[David Bailey]

Yes, nearly all the WCS lessons I've done have freestyle between beginners & intermediate lessons, and then plenty of freestyle afterwards. Cat's classes now also have a review class for beginners while the intermediate lesson is on.

Well, it's a proven format, nothing wrong with that.

In fact, AT classes might benefit from that format.

[Rhythm King]

Well, it's a proven format, nothing wrong with that.

In fact, AT classes might benefit from that format.

Decent teachers would help too - and no sooner said than done - Amir's starting pure tango lessons.

[Twirly]

Ah well, seems I left my deliberations too long - just tried to book for the WCS. :( I can't - female bookings on hold until some more men book up, which is a pain, as got an e-mail from a male friend this morning saying he'd booked - could've booked with him to get onto it! :tears:

Still, I was giving it some serious thought last night (and using it as an excuse to look at you tube video clips of WCS and AT) and did feel somewhat more drawn to the AT - but thought that this course was a good opportunity. So, I'm on the waiting list - if I get onto the WCS course, I'll do that, if I don't, then I'll see about starting AT lessons, possibly next week! :grin:

[Beowulf]

if I get onto the WCS course, I'll do that, if I don't, then I'll see about starting AT lessons, possibly next week! :grin:

Cool.. then perhaps I'll have someone who can tell me how the darn to dance to Gadget's Signature Track El Tango De Roxanne then.. I stood on the poor girls toes last time I tried (sorry Helen.. if you read the forum that is!)

I like the AT styling, I don't like the WCS styling but I'll be trying neither as I've not mastered the basics of MJ yet. However a AT dancing Girlfriend could be cool.. (She does all the flash moves.. I get to look cool!) :wink:

[Paul F]

By the way, isn't that WCS a sort of really slow Lindy for folk who have trouble moving quickly?

:D back!

:really: How could I miss that slur

Yeah, in my case thats probably true :rofl:

[robd]

By the way, isn't that WCS a sort of really slow Lindy for folk who have trouble moving quickly?



or maybe folk who like the continued pain-free use of their knees :confused:

[JonD]

Still, I was giving it some serious thought last night (and using it as an excuse to look at you tube video clips of WCS and AT) and did feel somewhat more drawn to the AT
Fate is leading you, inexorably, toward AT; there's no point in resisting ... submit; think of the passion, the intensity, the shoes .... submit. (See you at a milonga sometime soon!)


However a AT dancing Girlfriend could be cool..
"Could be"? What do you mean, "Could be"? Women who dance AT are the coolest, most desirable and gorgeous girlfriends in creation!

[Twirly]

Fate is leading you, inexorably, toward AT; there's no point in resisting ... submit; think of the passion, the intensity, the shoes .... submit. (See you at a milonga sometime soon!)

It seems so!


"Could be"? What do you mean, "Could be"? Women who dance AT are the coolest, most desirable and gorgeous girlfriends in creation!

I suspect that he thinks I'm that already...:blush: :awe:

[Caro]

"Could be"? What do you mean, "Could be"? Women who dance AT are the coolest, most desirable and gorgeous girlfriends in creation!

Do women who dance both AT and WCS then sit at the pinnacle of coolness, gorgeousness and desirableness ?

Just a thought :whistle:



do we also get invisible then ? :tears:

[Paul F]

....course things.....

I hope you do manage to make it onto the course.

Lynn hit on a good point with regard to getting involved in the night. One of the reasons why I requested a course rather than classes is to allow the formation of what I like to call a 'team dynamic'. Its the spirit of "everyone in the same boat" that somehow builds a community of people rather than a group of individuals. Thats important to me when learning tricky material.

Of course the other reason why I wanted to teach in a course setup is because of the material being taught. In that sense the night will be run as close to a normal Ceroc night as possible in order to maintain the familiarity aspect. You can see the course outline on Ceroc London's webpage (WCS (http://www.ceroclondon.com/wcs.htm)).
It will, however, differ in that each course session will be cumulative and will have two distinct focusses within the session. That is different than the Ceroc method of having beginner then intermediate.

Im really looking forward to getting going now. :grin:

[JonD]

I suspect that he thinks I'm that already..
And so he damn well should! Mind you, after sharing a "Tango Trance" with you he'll worship the very ground you walk on (or exhibit similarly embarrassing tendencies).


How could I miss that slur
Sorry about that! I do like WCS; I've done a few classes at weekenders with the likes of DavidB and Paul Warden over the years and know that it's a dance I'd love to learn. Sadly, as senility seems to accompany my creaky knees and an inability to move at Lindy speeds, I'm incapable of being absorbed in more than 2 dances at a time. Your course sounds great and I love the "team dynamic" idea; I think it'll make a real difference to the learning experience.


Do women who dance both AT and WCS then sit at the pinnacle of coolness, gorgeousness and desirableness?
As Julie has recently started learning WCS I am able to answer that question in the affirmative, without risking the traumatic amputation of my creaky knees.

[Paul F]

Sorry about that! I do like WCS;......

No need to apologise. I was only having a laugh :grin:

Glad you like WCS though :wink:

[Twirly]

Well that's me booked on the next WCS course at Clapham. :nice:

I was going to do AT (and still want to), but will get more opportunity to practise this (since some of my regular dance partners at Ceroc have done the first one) - and seem to be permanently short of time as it is.

[Twirly]

Oh b@gg@r!!!

They've cancelled the Tuesday WCS course due to lack of bookings... ever felt as if you're not meant to do something? :tears:

They are suggesting running it as two workshops this Sunday and next, but am away on holiday so can't do the second one. :(

[Sheepman]

Do women who dance both AT and WCS then sit at the pinnacle of coolness, gorgeousness and desirableness ?
Yes!
(But probably only in the eyes of that multitude of men that also do both.)

They've cancelled the Tuesday WCS course due to lack of bookings... That's a shame, and demonstrates how hard it is to keep going with WCS, or is it a case of Sunday & Tuesday is too much? I hope to make it along on a Sunday for the freestyle when my work schedule eases.

There is an alternative on Tuesdays, as Cat is teaching a course in Fulham.

Greg

[Paul F]

Oh b@gg@r!!!

They've cancelled the Tuesday WCS course due to lack of bookings... ever felt as if you're not meant to do something? :tears:

They are suggesting running it as two workshops this Sunday and next, but am away on holiday so can't do the second one. :(

Yeah. Tis true.

It has been put down to the fact that the course start date was rushed forward to coincide with the start of the intermediate course and the fact that, at this time of year, its not the best time to entice people in.

Of course, it COULD be that the level of interest in WCS isnt as big as we thought!! Although I dont think that. I think its just a combo of it being a course (commitment) with a short marketing lead-in time all at the wrong time of year.

The course will be run but probably at the start of October.



On a personal note its fairly frustrating for me. I have put a lot of time and effort into generating the syllabus (although I have had help on that part) as well as producing material and ideas for the sessions.
I just want to teach it NOW :)