Should you ask teachers to dance if you don't dance their dance-style?

[robd]

Would you invite Steven Gerrard to your house and ask him to play tennis with you? Would you ask AC/DC to pop in and expect a rendition of Beethoven's 5th?

I suspect the answer is probably no. So why do people expect teachers at weekenders who are there to teach their particular dance-style to jive? Why were people who had little or no exposure to WCS asking Jordan or Tatiana to dance? They know the teachers cannot really say no but, to me, it is disrespectful to them to be asking them to dance in a style that is alien to them. I guess it is the cult of celebrity - 'I danced with XXX, Wow! It was a crap dance but, hey, I danced with XXX!'

That said, Fletch promising Jordan a charity dance is priceless :rofl:

[ducasi]

I think it's OK for a beginner in whatever dance-style to ask anyone who does that same dance-style for a dance.

I haven't heard of anyone doing what you suggest.

[robd]

I think it's OK for a beginner in whatever dance-style to ask anyone who does that same dance-style for a dance.

I haven't heard of anyone doing what you suggest.

See


Didn't wcs at all (I can't) but still had some great dances with WC swingers including Tatiana (whome I couldn't dance with properly as was worried I would break her. Told I went white).


I also saw at least 4 other occasions at the weekend of people jiving with J or T.

[Freudian Hips]

Would you invite Steven Gerrard to your house and ask him to play tennis with you? Would you ask AC/DC to pop in and expect a rendition of Beethoven's 5th?

I suspect the answer is probably no. So why do people expect teachers at weekenders who are there to teach their particular dance-style to jive? Why were people who had little or no exposure to WCS asking Jordan or Tatiana to dance? They know the teachers cannot really say no but, to me, it is disrespectful to them to be asking them to dance in a style that is alien to them. I guess it is the cult of celebrity - 'I danced with XXX, Wow! It was a crap dance but, hey, I danced with XXX!'

That said, Fletch promising Jordan a charity dance is priceless :rofl:

If one were to follow that logic through one would never ask anybody better than or different to oneself to dance. The alternative is to think "Oh my god, it's (for example) Jordan, I can't ever ask him for a dance because he is way too good". Nah - not going to happen. I asked Jordan because he happened to be right there and because I had been to his classes over the weekend. This is no different to usual social behaviour. We need to be careful about the cult of celebrity from either direction (overkeen or overawed).

As a follower, I expect to follow the dance style of the lead, whatever that is. However, as with all mixtures of culture and language, it is so much more mutually respectful and fun when the learning and experimentation happens both ways. Good teachers (clearly including J&T:respect: ) do this instinctively.

PS I bet AC/DC could do a really very interesting version of the 5th. Yes, ok and I did go home and tell my girls I had a dance with the man who danced to Pump It on Youtube!

[ducasi]

See

[...]

I also saw at least 4 other occasions at the weekend of people jiving with J or T.
OK, well from what I've seen in the past it doesn't take long at all for a good WCS dancer to get used to dancing MJ. And this is just regular WCS dancers, not the best of the best.

So, yeah, if I had the opportunity and the inclination, I might have asked Tatiana to dance MJ, though I'd ask her if it was OK first.

Might not do the same with dance goddesses of other styles, but I figure, with a "non-educated" dance like MJ, a good follower in most other partner dance styles would adapt fairly quickly.

[David Bailey]

If one were to follow that logic through one would never ask anybody better than or different to oneself to dance.
:yeah: Vincent and Flavia famously danced till the early hours in the Blues Room in February - I assume this was MJ, and I assume they didn't object?

[straycat]

So why do people expect teachers at weekenders who are there to teach their particular dance-style to jive? Why were people who had little or no exposure to WCS asking Jordan or Tatiana to dance?

May I refer the learned gentleman to this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/social-events/12507-scotland-blaze-may-07-aftermath-2.html#post372639), containing a response from a teacher in such a position, to the event she attended? Sounds like she had fun...

Most good teachers I've come across are always up for trying new things. Isn't it somewhat insulting to them to assume they would rather stick to what they know, and to avoid asking them to dance on that basis?

[foxylady]

:yeah: Vincent and Flavia famously danced till the early hours in the Blues Room in February - I assume this was MJ, and I assume they didn't object?

They did dance and said they had a fabulous time! They actually asked someone (can't remember who) for a quick lesson in the basics before they joined in. I think Vincent found it a little harder.... but then tango is walking and Mj is walking so how different can they be :devil: (ok am ducking now and running away very fast - and yes I do know the difference so I don't need a lecture)

[foxylady]

May I refer the learned gentleman to this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/social-events/12507-scotland-blaze-may-07-aftermath-2.html#post372639), containing a response from a teacher in such a position, to the event she attended? Sounds like she had fun...

Most good teachers I've come across are always up for trying new things. Isn't it somewhat insulting to them to assume they would rather stick to what they know, and to avoid asking them to dance on that basis?

I think you meant this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/372639-post96.html) as the link you gave just pointed to the beginning of page 2 in the thread rather than post no 96 on page 5 (which is I assume the one you meant)

[David Bailey]

They did dance and said they had a fabulous time! They actually asked someone (can't remember who) for a quick lesson in the basics before they joined in.
Did someone tell them they needed to do 6 lessons before they could move up to be intermediates? :grin:



I think Vincent found it a little harder.... but then tango is walking and Mj is walking so how different can they be :devil: (ok am ducking now and running away very fast - and yes I do know the difference so I don't need a lecture)

Brave woman :clap:

Go on, diss WCS, I dare you... :devil:

[Caro]

I think it depends a little on the teacher in question (i.e. check they're ok with it first) and what dance they are doing. Also, this is bound to be easier for follows teachers than leads.
As somebody else mentioned, ultimately those guys love dancing and there's a good chance that they will have fun giving a go at pretty much anything (look at Carla, and Vincent and Flavia).

Now at the same time, people who attend the week-end and can dance their style should also be given a chance to dance with them and observe them dancing socially in their dance, because this is very inspirational.
I have to say that I would have found it a little unfair if good WCS music was being played and everybody who can MJ and not WCS was queuing up to ask J&T for a dance. It's a fine balance. (go on, call me a hotshot now :devil: )

I know Jordan said he struggled a little with MJ, and in particular found it difficult to cope with follows who step forward on 1 without being lead (which is one of the distinctive traits of MJ dancers). Now that doesn't mean that he didn't enjoy giving it a try and that he didn't have fun dancing with those ladies anyway.

[straycat]

I think you meant this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/372639-post96.html) as the link you gave just pointed to the beginning of page 2 in the thread rather than post no 96 on page 5 (which is I assume the one you meant)

Grrr. Sorry about that. :blush: I imagine it's because I have my settings to give me 50 posts per page... and so it got the page count right for me, but wrong for everyone else. I must remember this when linking to posts in the future....

Thanks for the correction.

[fletch]

That said, Fletch promising Jordan a charity dance is priceless :rofl:


it took him a while to get my sence of humour :na: bit like Phil:rolleyes: but he got there in the end, :waycool: good job or he could have really given me a hard time on the dance floor,:tears: especially when I shot off doing my own thing and he had to wait till I gave him the lead back.:D ......it helped my nerves :wink: :innocent:




I think it's OK for a beginner in whatever dance-style to ask anyone who does that same dance-style for a dance.

I haven't heard of anyone doing what you suggest.

:blush:


Ben, in the main room, think it was the last Southport, I asked him to dance and he said 'Sure but I don't do MJ' I said 'oooooo this will be interesting I don't WCS' :eek: :D

I was fine :na: I think :confused:






Go on, diss WCS, I dare you... :devil:

Not me as I WCS :na: according to Jordan :D :waycool:

[drathzel]

Well my only experience of this was at Blaze when i was going to ask Franck to dance but he was asking Carla at the same time. I said i'd catch him for one later (which i never got :tears:) and went to walk away only to be chased by Ben:drool: and asked would i like to dance with him instead!MMM DUH!!!!

He said to me on the way to the dance floor that if i didnt do any of the styles he did then he would happily fake ceroc, which would have been fine if i hadnt have opened my stupid mouth and mentioned that i have done a littloe wcs in the past but am a bit rusty, to which he replied "Great" but the relief on his face said it all. So we wc-ed and it was fun! Scary but fun. He was lovely afterwards and said that i did very well!

The funny thing was if he hadnt anchored at the end of the moves i probably would have thought he was doing some slotted variations of jive that you get with people who have done both.

I thought it was sweet of him to offer and it gave me the opertunity to dance wcs with a fab lead.

I know as a teacher and a follow that if someone asks me to do something that isnt jive/ceroc then i will happliy do it, however as a lead i would find it harder if not impossible to do something i didnt dance.

I think it would probably be "ok" if you ask a follow to try your style but i would never expect a leader to do my style! If he didnt then i wouldnt ask him to!

[robd]

I'll accept

* that the teachers themselves may enjoy dancing a different style
* that by accepting a job to teach at a jive event there should be an expectation that the majority of the customers will be jivers first and foremost

but I still stand by my belief that dancing with a teacher in a style that's alien to them is wasting their talent and possibly denying others the chance to enhance their dancing in the style for which the teacher is known (after all there's only so much social dancing a teacher can be expected to do).
I also stand by the statement that it shows you are asking them for their celebrity status and not for their dance ability (as in ability to jive not ability to dance in their dance-style) (though I can understand that with Flavia the principal incentive to ask could be the fact that she is drop dead gorgeous :drool: )

[David Bailey]

(though I can understand that with Flavia the principal incentive to ask could be the fact that she is drop dead gorgeous :drool: )
Yes, It'd be a crime to waste an opportunity to do AT with Flavia - I mean, what's the point of MJ-ing with her?

[Freudian Hips]

I agree with Drathzel that you can't ask a lead to lead in an unknown dance form. For a follow it is a bit different.

However:
Does one have to be a certain level to get something good out of a teacher? What about those who have solo or other dance behind us, who might just cross over and adapt "fairly" easily and who want to dance with experienced and newcomers alike in all sorts of dance styles.

Who is going to decide when I am worthy of a dance with Jordan or other teacher?
Who will decide whether I wasted his (or my?) time?
As part of my decision about whether or not I ask someone to dance I should consider how much of both our time we will be wasting .......?
Or consider that other people might think I/he/we are wasting our time?





I don't think so :D

[spindr]

If you aren't sure whether someone dances a particular style you just say:
Would you care for a jive?
or
Would you care for a WCS?
etc.

If they're happy to dance that particular style, then so much to the good -- otherwise, you find some other common ground, or move on.

What's the problem? Well unless you simply *assume* that they're happy to dance the Watoosi, or whatever with you :)
SpinDr

[StokeBloke]

I'll accept

* that the teachers themselves may enjoy dancing a different style
* that by accepting a job to teach at a jive event there should be an expectation that the majority of the customers will be jivers first and foremost

but I still stand by my belief that dancing with a teacher in a style that's alien to them is wasting their talent and possibly denying others the chance to enhance their dancing in the style for which the teacher is known (after all there's only so much social dancing a teacher can be expected to do).
I also stand by the statement that it shows you are asking them for their celebrity status and not for their dance ability (as in ability to jive not ability to dance in their dance-style) (though I can understand that with Flavia the principal incentive to ask could be the fact that she is drop dead gorgeous :drool: )
Do you realise just how up yourself you sound Rob? There has already been discussion here about the WCS hotshots, this attitude just adds more fuel to that fire. Suggesting that jivers are somehow not worthy to dance with Jordan and Tatiana is complete tosh. As for dancing jive with Jordan and Tatiana being a waste of their time and talent, how utterly pompous :eek: Comparing WCS/jive to tennis/football really sums up this argument - complete nonsense!

Please feel free to put forward your opinion of how you would feel if you were asked to dance in a style other than the one you were a world champion in Rob - but please don't phrase it in such a way that makes it seem like real world champions would concur with you.

Jordan and Tatiana were at a dance event, dancing. People asked them to dance, they accepted. But that seems to be the sort of people they are, genuine, fun and up for a laugh. And to anyone reading this who now feels that they shouldn't ask a pro to dance because you are beneath them - please reconsider.

[MartinHarper]

I think it'd be silly for me to ask someone who can't dance Modern Jive to dance and demand that they try to dance Modern Jive with me. It would be better to ask them to dance, say that I can't dance whatever dance they specialise in, and take it from there. That way, both of us adapt, and we try to find common ground. For example, the last time I danced with a Carolina Shag follower we ended up happily dancing a variation on East Coast. If I had demanded that she try to follow a dance of my choosing, things would not have gone as smoothly.


found it difficult to cope with follows who step forward on 1 without being lead (which is one of the distinctive traits of MJ dancers).

I thought MJ followers rock-stepped on 1. At least in theory.

[David Bailey]

Do you realise just how up yourself you sound Rob?
:rofl:
Well, to be fair, he is a WCS-er :devil:


There has already been discussion here about the WCS hotshots, this attitude just adds more fuel to that fire. Suggesting that jivers are somehow not worthy to dance with Jordan and Tatiana is complete tosh.
That's not what he was saying.

Another way of putting it, would be that Tatiana (for example) is not a good enough MJ-er to make it a memorable experience dancing MJ with her - effectively, she could be at the same level as a beginner in MJ.

So, the only real reason to want to dance with her might be to say "Ooh, look, I danced with Tatiana :waycool:" or whatever.

Note: I've no idea what Tatiana is like at MJ - that's just the argument as I understand it.


As for dancing jive with Jordan and Tatiana being a waste of their time and talent, how utterly pompous :eek: Comparing WCS/jive to tennis/football really sums up this argument - complete nonsense!
:confused: Why? Dance forms are different, aren't they? Surely it's best to use their strengths? All professional dancers specialise, there's no shame in that...

[StokeBloke]

:rofl:
Well, to be fair, he is a WCS-er :devil:
I rest m' case m'lud :whistle:

:confused: Why? Dance forms are different, aren't they? Surely it's best to use their strengths? All professional dancers specialise, there's no shame in that...
No shame in specialising. But tennis and football are two completely different things, bearing no resemblance to each other and with no real cross over at all. If he had suggested tennis and squash perhaps the analogy may have worked as there is a plethora of transferable skill in the two games, just as there are between WCS and jive. That is why I feel the analogy is laughably flawed.





On a side note, I danced with Tatiana at Southport. I had only done six WCS lessons but I opted to dance WCS with her the best I could as I felt it would be a golden opportunity, too good to miss. The result? I'm sure our dance was instantly forgettable for her, but last night still aching and not feeling like leaving my front room I drove to Congelton and had my WCS lesson solely because that dance had inspired me to want to do better. Thank you Tatiana :flower:

[Ghost]

I also saw at least 4 other occasions at the weekend of people jiving with J or T.
Were they in a WCS room at the time?

[straycat]

If you aren't sure whether someone dances a particular style you just say:
Would you care for a jive?
or
Would you care for a WCS?
etc.



...For example, the last time I danced with a Carolina Shag follower...

...
...
I don't even have to say it, do I? :devil:
Fancy a....

:whistle:

[Ghost]

...
...
I don't even have to say it, do I? :devil:
Fancy a....

:whistle:

Fancy a Carolina? First girl I ever had a crush on.....:awe:

[MartinHarper]

I'll accept ... that the teachers themselves may enjoy dancing a different style ...

If the teachers enjoy doing this, is it reasonable to expect them to stop enjoying themselves?


... denying others the chance to enhance their dancing ...

Would you accept that there are many learning possibilities from dancing Modern Jive with folks who are accustomed to other dance styles?

[David Franklin]

This might not be a popular stance, but I see a big benefit of getting people like J/T to teach is so that it can improve the level of our better dancers and teachers. Because even if I'm greedy, I'm only going to have a couple of dances with Tatianna myself, and WCS god that she is, that's not going to be enough to make me a good WCS dancer. It's the hundreds of subsequent classes I have with the likes of Cat, Paul W, etc. that will have to do that. So I'm perfectly happy for them to get the lion's share of the dances; it can only help me in the future.

And conversely, I think it's perfectly understandable (if not exactly tactful) for the better WCS dancers to feel its not the best use of J/Ts time to be dancing with someone who doesn't even know the basics. Because there are lots of people who can teach them the basics - they don't need J/T for that.

But at the end of the day, it's social dancing we're talking about, not teaching. So I'd say you can ask who you want. Just be considerate about what styles they know and how busy/tired they are. And don't assume someone saying "no" means they're a big WCS snob.

Personally, I do think you should also be considerate about who the other people around you want to dance with. You shouldn't "hog" any dancer (except possibly your other half), and you shouldn't take it as a big insult if they'd rather grab a dance with Jordan than dance with you. I recall sitting with someone and agreeing we'd do the next dance. Then Robert Cordoba came along. She was going to turn him down and I told her "Don't be stupid. Grab your chance to dance with Robert. It's not like you won't get lots of other chances to dance with me".

[Caro]

I thought MJ followers rock-stepped on 1. At least in theory.

yeah, I know. I probably should have said 'move forward before being lead on 1', because I think what happens (at least when I lead my very basic WCS with MJ dancers / beginners WCS-er) is that they in fact do the rock step during the anchor step (cause they don't know how to anchor and revert to their MJ basics), probably on 5, then move forward on 6 (in a 6 beat pattern), hence the perception that they move forward before being lead (on 1, or 7 in that example) into the next pattern.
Or something to the same effect anyway, it is a very distinctive feature of MJ dancers doing WCS, before they learn to correct it.

[Lynn]

yeah, I know. I probably should have said 'move forward before being lead on 1', because I think what happens (at least when I lead my very basic WCS with MJ dancers / beginners WCS-er) is that they in fact do the rock step during the anchor step (cause they don't know how to anchor and revert to their MJ basics), probably on 5, then move forward on 6 (in a 6 beat pattern), hence the perception that they move forward before being lead (on 1, or 7 in that example) into the next pattern.
Or something to the same effect anyway, it is a very distinctive feature of MJ dancers doing WCS, before they learn to correct it.I have an related question (but a bit off thread). If dancing to a funky track that says WCS to me, and I'm being led slotted MJ, instead of stepping back right on a rock step and forward on my right (ie R-L-R) I have found myself doing an anchor step and forward on my right.

I think this has felt to the lead the same or very similar to a rock step in terms of connection. My feet tend to do their own thing and its only when its seemed to fit the music.

Is this OK? Has anyone else done this?

[Caro]

Is this OK? Has anyone else done this?

I do it very, very often, mostly because I have been working very hard to fight that MJ habit out of my WCS, and it has now become the way I dance, even in MJ. I think leads find it a bit weird cause it's not the standard way of doing things, but they cope ok :yum: .
Hence me saying some time ago 'I don't step back' anymore :devil:

[johnah]

They did dance and said they had a fabulous time! They actually asked someone (can't remember who) for a quick lesson in the basics before they joined in. I think Vincent found it a little harder.... [/COLOR][/SIZE]

It was Lynne Pearson, one of our crew and the 2005 UK Open Jive Spotlight winner.

[robd]

Please feel free to put forward your opinion of how you would feel if you were asked to dance in a style other than the one you were a world champion in Rob - but please don't phrase it in such a way that makes it seem like real world champions would concur with you.

I think there's some sarcasm in there somewhere :rolleyes: but I am so far up myself it's too dark to see it. Anything I post is my opinion. I don't know where you get the 'such a way that makes it seem like real world champions would concur with you' from :confused:



:rofl:
Well, to be fair, he is a WCS-er :devil:

Only in the same way as SB is a WCS-er (see end quote) though I accept that WCS-er is used here as a synonym for hotshot :yawn:. I've taken a few workshops now and I try wherever possible and desirable to dance it socially. I am concentrating on my basics and really trying to get those to a solid position before adding to them. I felt just as awed by some of the talent on display in the Dance Den as anyone but I stuck with it.



That's not what he was saying.

Another way of putting it, would be that Tatiana (for example) is not a good enough MJ-er to make it a memorable experience dancing MJ with her - effectively, she could be at the same level as a beginner in MJ.

So, the only real reason to want to dance with her might be to say "Ooh, look, I danced with Tatiana :waycool:" or whatever.

Note: I've no idea what Tatiana is like at MJ - that's just the argument as I understand it.

Exactly what I meant DJ.


But tennis and football are two completely different things, bearing no resemblance to each other and with no real cross over at all. If he had suggested tennis and squash perhaps the analogy may have worked as there is a plethora of transferable skill in the two games, just as there are between WCS and jive. That is why I feel the analogy is laughably flawed.

Can't agree with that and I didn't want to specifically link this argument to WCS only though that's the example from the latest Southport. Ostensibly a certain type of slotted Jive and WCS share a number of similarities but NZ Monkey outlines a good set of reasons why the two are also very different in the WCS Hotshots thread. Tennis and football share a number of attributes in common - physical fitness, eye:hand/foot co-ordination to name but two. Just because there isn't a close visual similarity doesn't mean that the characteristics that determine good performance in one are not similar for the other.






On a side note, I danced with Tatiana at Southport. I had only done six WCS lessons but I opted to dance WCS with her the best I could as I felt it would be a golden opportunity, too good to miss. The result? I'm sure our dance was instantly forgettable for her, but last night still aching and not feeling like leaving my front room I drove to Congelton and had my WCS lesson solely because that dance had inspired me to want to do better. Thank you Tatiana :flower:

:cheers: You've just confirmed my argument for me StokeBloke. Your dance with T has enhanced your dancing, not just given you celeb-cred by association and this is exactly the reason why I feel that the most benefit to be gained from the pro dancers is by dancing in their style.

[spindr]

Would you invite Steven Gerrard to your house and ask him to play tennis with you?
Not quite Steven Gerrard -- but it has been done already (http://www.amazon.com/Playing-Moldovans-Tennis-Tony-Hawks/dp/0312305184).
SpinDr

[Gadget]

Personally, I will ask a teacher to dance, and I will dance with them. (assuming they accept of course ;)) I dance to the music. I lead by trying to follow their 'natural' style. I give them space and a frame to express the music and take them with me when I want to do something with the music. In short, I dance with them. :love:

The "style" thing I think is immaterial - the 'star' dancers/teachers enjoy dancing, they are in a room full of folk enjoying dancing. They have skill and tallent enough to follow lots of subtle stuff that most other dance forms have, I think that the MJ lead may appear to be very crude in comparison and fairly simple to follow.

{Then again, there are not many people who would call how I dance "Ceroc" :innocent:... (erm... some may also argue the "dance" part as well :blush:)}

[Freudian Hips]

{Then again, there are not many people who would call how I dance "Ceroc" :innocent:... (erm... some may also argue the "dance" part as well :blush:)}

:flower: :flower: :flower:
Awwwww .... You definitely dance ......:hug: :respect:

And it works with my version of non-ceroc too ;)

[Juju]

As for dancing jive with Jordan and Tatiana being a waste of their time and talent, how utterly pompous :eek:

Jordan and Tatiana were at a dance event, dancing. People asked them to dance, they accepted.


:yeah:

Haven't posted on here for a long time, but....

Can't help thinking of the first Southport, when I'd not been dancing long, but managed to pluck up the courage to ask both Victor and Trampy for a dance (both were teaching that weekend as I remember it). I was inexperienced, knew bugger all about anything or anyone, but I figured I might learn something from dancing with people who obviously knew what they were doing - which is, after all, what we're all encouraged to do when we start out. It wouldn't have mattered if their speciality was WCS, Tango or whatever - I probably wouldn't have known or even been able to tell. Furthermore, Southport is a jive event and you can be sure that the one dance everyone present knows is modern jive - and every 'celebrity' (your description) attending would presumably be aware of that. This is supposed to be social dancing, remember, and trying to create a 'pecking order' in order to decide who gets to dance with whom is therefore both inappropriate and mean.


Would you invite Steven Gerrard to your house and ask him to play tennis with you? Would you ask AC/DC to pop in and expect a rendition of Beethoven's 5th?

Um yes, why not? If they then refused on the grounds that it was beneath them, I'd chalk them up as miserable scrotes and not ask them round again. Simple.