PDA

View Full Version : codes of practice



Chris
6th-August-2003, 08:10 AM
OK I know all my friends are probably fed up of my whomping on about NZ Ceroc, but a couple of things came up in some private messaging that I think might be of interest.

Codes of Practice for Teachers
Moving up Assessments (beginner to intermediate to advanced)
Code of Practice on Sexual Harassment

I've attached the first two in a separate post below and the Code on Sexual Harassment (although it doesn't include the excellent examples of their earlier code). I think all three are the sort of thing that could helpfully be readily viewable at venues.

The Codes are from the Teachers' Guide (shared with permission) so do please acknowledge Ceroc NZ if you pass them on.

Moving Up Assessments is something no club yet has introduced. It could even be done on an optional basis (complementary to, not instead of, Cerocshops). A big advantage is that it not only makes sure dancers don't have glaring gaps in their skills but that other dancers can recognise that they will know the techniques for, say, assisted spins and drops, or have a professional attitude to 'close' moves (and I'm not saying you still shouldn't ask, just that it helps to know that a dancer knows about such things)

And oh - I'm NOT saying NZ Ceroc is 'better' - just different - and we are all big grown ups that can learn from others (can't we?) :rolleyes:

And check out their new website (http://www.ceroc.co.nz/) - some stunning photos - I'm off to nick a couple for my own site! (yes, I did ask first!)
<whomp mode off>

Ciao

Chris
(after this I promise to stop whomping about NZ Ceroc for at least a fortnight) :na:

Chris
6th-August-2003, 08:15 AM
Here's the Code of Practice for Teachers (which was pinned to the wall, as it should be, when I was there).

btw sorry I can't post the moving up assessment forms - they won't post as a teext doc - but will add them to my website in the next few days hopefully.

Ciao

Chris

stewart38
6th-August-2003, 09:26 AM
Sorry Chris totally disagree with having 'assessments' in classes optional or not

Its not what Ceroc is or should be about :confused:

Heather
6th-August-2003, 10:00 AM
:D I wholeheartedly agree with you Stewart, Ceroc in this country(and I'm talking specifically Scotland!!!) is all about FUN !!!!
The majority of people at the average Ceroc class are there for social reasons and to learn to dance, which they feel they can do after a couple of classes. In my opinion, there is far too much emphasis on 'assesssment' in our lives in general. I'm talking as a teacher here, primary children in schools are already under enormous pressure to achieve National Test results, not to mention the assessments in Secondary and further education.
I am very much against introducing assessment into what, primarily for most people, is a hobby.
The world has gone assessment mad, I certainly would be firmly against a move toward this in Ceroc, and I think a lot of people would simply stop coming if they had to pass some sort of 'competency' test.
I could rant about this ad infinitum, but lifes too short and it's sunny outside, besides, this has already been discussed at great length, earlier, on another thread, which I can't be bothered to find, but which I'm sure someone who is bored at work, may !!

:cheers:
Heather,
X

Twinkle Toes
6th-August-2003, 11:18 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Heather
:D I wholeheartedly agree with you Stewart, Ceroc in this country(and I'm talking specifically Scotland!!!) is all about FUN !!!!
The majority of people at the average Ceroc class are there for social reasons and to learn to dance, which they feel they can do after a couple of classes. In my opinion, there is far too much emphasis on 'assesssment' in our lives in general. I'm talking as a teacher here, primary children in schools are already under enormous pressure to achieve National Test results, not to mention the assessments in Secondary and further education.
I am very much against introducing assessment into what, primarily for most people, is a hobby.
The world has gone assessment mad, I certainly would be firmly against a move toward this in Ceroc, and I think a lot of people would simply stop coming if they had to pass some sort of 'competency' test.

DITTO - Couldn't have put in any better myself Heather.
I'm all for keeping it as FUN.

TT x

Aleks
6th-August-2003, 11:32 AM
I find Ceroc (in Scotland) is enjoyable exactly becuse there is NO distinction made and most of the people I've met are there to have fun.

Most dancers who are looking for assessment of ability would probably choose another type of dance or even a completely different hobby!

I have no desire to take more dancing exams - I did plenty as a child/teenager but understand there may be people who wish to. I considered becoming a ballet teacher a few years ago but balked at the thought of being examined again, never mind the responsiblity of getting 50 kids through theirs, 3 times a year.

Can't see it being implemented within Scottish Ceroc - who would want to deal with the paperwork involved, for a start???!!

Brady
6th-August-2003, 12:32 PM
[i]A big advantage is that it not only makes sure dancers don't have glaring gaps in their skills but that other dancers can recognise that they will know the techniques for, say, assisted spins and drops, or have a professional attitude to 'close' moves (and I'm not saying you still shouldn't ask, just that it helps to know that a dancer knows about such things)[/B]

Sorry Chris, but must agree with the others that the assessment idea really doesn't belong in Ceroc here in Scotland. Specifically in terms of your comment quoted above, because Scotland isn't the biggest, most populated place in the world :really: most of us here in Scotland know each other and know what each other is capable of doing on the dance floor. If you're not sure of another person's experience level, either play it safe, or watch them dance with others and make a reasonable judgement as to their abilities.

Like the others said, Ceroc is about FUN up here and I think we should keep it that way. If any of us want to be assessed, there are plenty of modern jive competitions around the country throughout the year.

Brady

Gadget
6th-August-2003, 12:36 PM
While I agree 110% with the absence of "assesments" and keeping Ceroc sociable, I think that if there was a general list of milestones for some sort of self assesment, then people would be able to judge there own ability without suffering at the hands of adjudicators or partners.

...How about something based on the "purity test" idea; lots of multiple choice rating questions and a calculated total at the bottom?
{..hmmm...I'm going to think on some questions now and put together a rough draft - for personal use of course. :wink:}

Aleks
6th-August-2003, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
While I agree 110% with the absence of "assesments" and keeping Ceroc sociable, I think that if there was a general list of milestones for some sort of self assesment, then people would be able to judge there own ability without suffering at the hands of adjudicators or partners.

...How about something based on the "purity test" idea; lots of multiple choice rating questions and a calculated total at the bottom?
{..hmmm...I'm going to think on some questions now and put together a rough draft - for personal use of course. :wink:}

What would a load of questions on a piece of paper have to do with physical dancing ability? (I'm running on the assumption that the hypothetical assessments would measure technical, physical ability.)

spindr
6th-August-2003, 01:01 PM
Well, I know that when I used to dance at Bristol Leroc (Michel Gay's old company) that there was an informal assessment.

Basically, just do a quick dance with a teacher to check that you were ok (safe?) to attend the intermediate class. Don't think it was ever too onerous. Does have the advantage that classes don't have to stop with a "And then do an Archie spin"... several minutes later "Ok, who doesn't know an Archie Spin?"...

Hmmm, could also be a good idea re: floorcraft? "I'm sorry sir, but you failed to check behind you, before leading a hatchback", "Performing an unlicenced aerial on a crowded dancefloor" :-)

Neil.

Grant
6th-August-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
What would a load of questions on a piece of paper have to do with physical dancing ability?
agreed
but how do you get feedback on your dancing abilities?

Grant

Aleks
6th-August-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Grant
agreed
but how do you get feedback on your dancing abilities?

Grant

Someone agreeing/asking to dance with me a second time?!

Grant
6th-August-2003, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
Someone agreeing/asking to dance with me a second time?!
i'm talking about constructive criticism which can help to improve your (well actually i mean my) dancing
at the moment i'm relying on the mirrors in marco's...(and boy can they be cruel :sick: )

Grant

Tiggerbabe
6th-August-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
Someone agreeing/asking to dance with me a second time?!

Absolutely Alex - on my Ceroc "Exam" paper there would be only one question..............

Would you like to dance?.................

a/ Yes!
b/ Yes Please!
c/ Yes, Yes, Yes
d/ Let's do it!

:D

Aleks
6th-August-2003, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by Grant
i'm talking about constructive criticism which can help to improve your (well actually i mean my) dancing
at the moment i'm relying on the mirrors in marco's...(and boy can they be cruel :sick: )

Grant

I would prefer to ask people for feedback than someone assessing me by filling in a form.

Tiggerbabe
6th-August-2003, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Grant
i'm talking about constructive criticism which can help to improve your (well actually i mean my) dancing
at the moment i'm relying on the mirrors in marco's...(and boy can they be cruel :sick: )

Grant

Why don't you ask the teacher to dance with you and address whatever it is you feel you're unhappy with. Most people will not (as previously discussed) say anything unless specifically asked to.
Workshops are probably the best place as there are fewer numbers than in a normal class.

p.s. See you tonight? :hug:

Grant
6th-August-2003, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Sheena
See you tonight? :hug:
you're coming to glasgow tonight? :D :waycool:
wahaaaaay, looking forward to a dance or three :nice:
:hug:
Grant

Tiggerbabe
6th-August-2003, 01:46 PM
and the correct answer would be....................

A/ B/ C/ and D

.........looking forward to it Grant and thankyou :D

Chris
6th-August-2003, 01:52 PM
Wow! Nice to see such response!

Actually when you see the actual 'assessment' forms you'll see it is fairly informal - a way of getting feedback. Having said that they don't really expect you to join in a class that is above your level. It might be all about fun, but you can have more fun if you know how to do something (also women have often complained that they get 'stuck' in a challenging intermediate class with someone who is very much a beginner - this can be less than fun for them when they are trying to progress.)

I'm pleased to see some discussion on it (even more so if people see the way it's done) - I don't have strong views on introducing it one way or the other in the UK but thought you might like to discuss it . . .

(And Franck and Sheena might dance with everyone, but ask the girls in clubs where they never get a dance with the teacher unless they are good enough or pals with them - though this is an entirely separate question.)

Since I don't really dance ceroc in Scotland anymore I maybe shouldn't comment (sorry if it got up anyone's nose)

michael
6th-August-2003, 03:32 PM
Quote:While I agree 110% with the absence of "assesments" and keeping Ceroc sociable, I think that if there was a general list of milestones for some sort of self assesment, then people would be able to judge there own ability without suffering at the hands of adjudicators or partners.

Gadget, you must be naturally perceptive. I think your on to something here.

Dancing is great fun and that is the most important part, but for me it would be more enjoyable if i could do more moves and know i am doing them reasonably well without major errors. Each week (my tenth now) i take part in the intermediate class and most of the times i either dont like the move, dont do it right or i like part of the move but never get to learn it. The usual is to ask about it the following week and you get the ....dont remember feedback?

About two weeks ago i printed out all 333 moves and put them in a book i thought great, now i just need to know what is what?? I never bothered about the names up till then as all i wanted to do was remember the move. Start again, then i find in classes the name of the move is so quickly said it is forgotten.

So perhaps the teachers (up there on stage) could make a point of mentioning the name of the moves more often. That way if you particularly like a move to add to your (my limited) collection at least you can take a note of what it is called and ask someone at a later stage? It does take a while though to just begin to remember what the basic moves are called but it is good when you do remember.

Stubob
6th-August-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by michael
So perhaps the teachers (up there on stage) could make a point of mentioning the name of the moves more often. That way if you particularly like a move to add to your (my limited) collection at least you can take a note of what it is called and ask someone at a later stage? It does take a while though to just begin to remember what the basic moves are called but it is good when you do remember.

Rab who used to teach at Rosyth when it was a LeRoc venue had a board at the side of the stage with the moves for both classes for that evening. This was a really good way of remembering what you were taught in the class. Knowing the 'sequenced name' of an intermediate move in particular is a good way of remembering what bits and pieces the move involved.

I don't know why Ceroc don't do this as most if not all Ceroc/LeRoc/LeJive moves are now available on the Jiveaholic Website.

Stuart

Dreadful Scathe
6th-August-2003, 04:05 PM
I agree with the rest of you, while Ceroc could no doubt come up with some minor improvements - such as the 'moves up on a board' mentioned above, there's really not that much to improve. Thats not to say Ceroc is perfect, more that it seems to be pretty well balanced and changing one thing may detract from another. Not every venue is the same of course.

I dont think Codes of conduct and other such wordy documents will improve anyones dance experience! e.g. Calling Sheenas trousers 'strokeable' on a public forum violates several of the NZ sexual harrasement rules :D.

Dreadful Scathe
6th-August-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by Grant
i'm talking about constructive criticism which can help to improve your (well actually i mean my) dancing
at the moment i'm relying on the mirrors in marco's...(and boy can they be cruel :sick: )


The trick is to look at someone else in the mirror and pretend its you. Hey, look Im great. ooooh. :cool:

also...

Some good feedback comments to give people...
(say them loud and enthuisiasticly for best effect)

1. There are no words to describe your dancing
2. Your dancing is beyond comparison
3. Ive never seen anything quite like THAT.

..sound different but all mean exactly the same ...result!

PeterL
6th-August-2003, 04:26 PM
Haven't spoken much on the forum recently, but this thread got my interest. I am pleased to see that just about everyone disagrees with assessment for ceroc.

We on the forum tend to take dance very seriously and forget that most of the dancers at ceroc go once a week and to the party nights and it is something to do, the socialising being as important as the dance, they could just as easily taken up an aerobics class or pottery or something.
However ceroc is more fun and as is always stressed at ceroc if you get it wrong who cares.

so introducing exams would in my opinion have a detrimental affect on the numbers of people dancing and lead to some people not dancing with others because they have either passed a higher degree of competency or haven't etc.

as far as the codes of conduct are concerned they read exactly like company mission statements loads of words just stating the obvious, most sensible people know how to behave in public and how not to sexually harras and anyone that is going to sexually harras, having a load of statements on paper will not stop them.


Peter

Fran
6th-August-2003, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

I dont think Codes of conduct and other such wordy documents will improve anyones dance experience! e.g. Calling Sheenas trousers 'strokeable' on a public forum violates several of the NZ sexual harrasement rules :D.

goodness if they clapped eyes on our forum they would close us down!!!:rofl: :rofl:

Im really glad that most of us who dance ceroc regulary in Scotland and the rest of the U.K are in a majority here. I dance because its fun for me and I hope that the person I dance with also enjoys themself. Its a release from all the other things we have to deal with in a very hetic life. As has been mentioned earlier on this thread there are other more formal dance styles available if people wish to go down the assesment route and good luck to them.

Issues of the saftey or inappropriateness/ sexual harrasement of a dancer male or female is delt with by the venue manager or francise controller. when this happens - and sometimes it does this method is effective. If some one was going to try it on with a dance partrner they would hardly do while being assessed.

As for dealing with the additional paper work I cant imagine that the dance teachers would have the time for it and it might not be appropriate for the venue to see private information if it was passed over to them.

fran

Fran
6th-August-2003, 04:40 PM
There is another alternative of course.
Go and dance/live in New Zealand. :wink: :wink:

fran

PeterL
6th-August-2003, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Fran
There is another alternative of course.
Go and dance/live in New Zealand. :wink: :wink:

fran


And while your there teach Scottish ceroc, it will probably be very popular since we stress the fun side of things more than the technical.

:wink:

DavidB
6th-August-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
And while your there teach Scottish ceroc, it will probably be very popular since we stress the fun side of things more than the technical. Don't assume that because you get your enjoyment from dancing Jive in a certain way that everyone else enjoys it for the same reasons.

Virtually everyone dances Jive for fun, so the structure should (and for most people does) encourage this. There are people that like the social side. Others like the exercise. A few lucky people are just naturally good at it. Many just enjoy being able to dance with someone they have never met before, and still be able to 30-odd moves.

And some people get their enjoyment from working at it and improving. Unfortunately after a while, this group seem to be almost alienated - "You should be doing this for fun - not taking it too seriously!" Sorry - but as long as I am not doing anything to offend or hurt anyone, then no-one should tell me how I should enjoy myself.

I've known a lot of very good dancers over the last 18 years. After a period of going to 'advanced' classes, only to find that they are really just intermediate classes taught a bit quicker, with exactly the same mix of beginners and intermediate dancers you get at any normal class, a lot of advanced dancers stop enjoying modern jive. Some move onto a different style of dance. Others stop dancing altogether. It seems a shame to have a system in place that encourages you to get to a certain level, but doesn't want you to get any higher.

I would like to see the occasional advanced workshops that are aimed at advanced/keen dancers. This is not something you would do at normal class nights. It would be for big weekend events where there are enough dancers to make it worthwhile, and enough teachers to provide several different alternatives. In trying to cater for a minority, you should not ignore the majority. (And it is a minority - advanced technique classes in London are lucky to get more than 20 dancers turning up.)

And rather than simplify these advanced classes to make them suitable for more people, I'd rather be more demanding of the dancers taking part. This could involve attending a previous workshop, or asking the teacher if he/she thinks you would benefit from it. I don't think anything more formal would be good for Jive in the UK. So while I agree that for normal classes there is no need for assessments of any kind, there may be a case for some kind of standard-checking for some true advanced workshops.

David

PeterL
6th-August-2003, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

And some people get their enjoyment from working at it and improving. Unfortunately after a while, this group seem to be almost alienated - "You should be doing this for fun - not taking it too seriously!" Sorry - but as long as I am not doing anything to offend or hurt anyone, then no-one should tell me how I should enjoy myself.

David

I have never and would never alienate someone for being good or wanting to improve, I would however not wish to seeing grading in something that is for the majority fun.

I also strongly disagree that people are alienated for being good, when was the last time you saw Bill or Steve to name just 2 alienated for being advanced dancers.

Sorry I forgot TheTramp is just a begginer.

Wanting to improve is one thing but when the enjoyment goes out of it, because there is pressure to pass certain criteria to move up a level, or to be worthy of dancing with someone a level above you, that is where I personally would draw the line, others are free to think and do as they wish.

I guess I just don't react well to something that I have spent the last two years enjoying and doing a lot being compared unfavourably to a different way of doing it elsewhere.

:D

Gadget
6th-August-2003, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
So while I agree that for normal classes there is no need for assessments of any kind, there may be a case for some kind of standard-checking for some true advanced workshops.
I like the idea of having to go to Level1 workshops before you can advance to level2... but I would probably only make it "advisable" that you go to lvl1 before lvl2, and expect the teacher to be disciplined enough to not "slow down" the workshop for those who really shouldn't be on it.

What I was thinking on was more "Milestones" that we all pass as dancers, for example the first time that any of these happened I count;<li>getting an "oh good" from your new partner on a class rotation<li>being "booked" for a dance during a class by someone you just stepped through it with<li>getting a "wow" from your partner on the dance floor<li>activly being looked out (hunted) for a dance<li>being asked how to do a move by another dancer (and it dosn't count if you're a taxt/teacher!)<li>getting a spontaneous round of applause when a dance finished {:D:Dthis is my latest milestone:D:D}

Chris
6th-August-2003, 05:33 PM
I've watched this thread grow with great interest, especially the comments on the assessments by people who haven't read them!;)

Of course, the forum is not representative - it rarely has posts by those who have become disaffected. Yet those disaffected ones will look to groups that offer what they have not found in Ceroc. They are people who are no longer finding it fun, for one reason or another, and go elsewhere either because they feel excluded or understimulated or disrespected.

Stating the 'obvious' is not the same as not stating it.

Studies have shown that companies that have written Codes of Practice outperform those that don't. With aggressive marketing this does not always show in the short term, only in the medium term.

Whilst I like the style and teaching methods of NZ, I am attracted mostly by the integrity of the organisation, by its determination to uphold standards not only of dancing but of decency. (I am sure some sensitive souls will read this as making implications about British Ceroc - it's not).

As to the fun and friendliness, DavidB has covered most of the things I would have said - except to add hat the bunch I met in NZ were the friendliest I've ever met.

The jesting comments from several people about harmless sexual innuendos being outlawed by Codes on Sexual Harassment should be just that - jesting - the comments on the list are flirtatious, which means they are enjoyable by both parties (which is the opposite of harassment). The danger is that real harassment will often be covered up with a combination of officialdom and jesting. Just as with fun. When you are in the in-crowd having fun you will be oblivious to any appearance of clique-iness that acts as a shield to bad practices.

I'm pleased to see that the discussion has already adopted (unwittingly, no doubt) been more approving to two ideas from NZ - one is ongoing feedback (the assessments are actually very informal and largely for this purpose) and secondly putting the list of moves on a board.

And I hope to goodness no-one ever does seriously try to take over and teach British Ceroc in NZ. I can't afford to go there, and I love Scotland too much to leave (sorry guys).

Fran
6th-August-2003, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Chris
I'm pleased to see that the discussion has already adopted (unwittingly, no doubt) been more approving to two ideas from NZ - one is ongoing feedback (the assessments are actually very informal and largely for this purpose) and secondly putting the list of moves on a board.

And I hope to goodness no-one ever does seriously try to take over and teach British Ceroc in NZ. I can't afford to go there, and I love Scotland too much to leave (sorry guys).



Corret me if I am wrong - and I am sure you will, but I dont think it would be correct to say that we have " unwittingly, no doubt" adopted the 2 ideas from NZ.That does sound at little patronising towards the members of the forum who have been involved with this:really:

The responses to the idea of having a structured assessment process as part of the usual evening of ceroc were very much against it.
With regards to workshops that is slightly different. It is very common practice for members to ask teachers if they feel that it would benifit them to sign up for a particular workshop at ceroc. and I have never over heard the teachers in Ceroc Scotland give false advice if asked - even if means losing out on a fee for the day.

Leroc have already historically put the moves on a board during a class as do Ceroc any workshop.


Adam is due to move to NZ and I am sure he will do very well there.

It has been mentioned by experienced dancers who have visited NZ / Australia there appears to be a slight gap in the market for musical interpretation and improvisation in NZ. - probebly because they concentrate on some excellent technicalities of moves. I sure he has no motive to "take over" but its right up Adams street :wink:



fran

Chris
6th-August-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Fran
Corret me if I am wrong -

You are :wink: - with or without winks - but would there be any point? :wink:

Dreadful Scathe
6th-August-2003, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Chris....
Of course, the forum is not representative -


Its 100% representative of people on this forum. :)



Studies have shown that companies that have written Codes of Practice outperform those that don't. With aggressive marketing this does not always show in the short term, only in the medium term.

bear in mind that 82.5% of statistics are completely made up :). Studies on 'companies' may show that Codes of Practice lead to better performance, but which companies ? are they all dance companies ? were all studies third party neutral ? what sort of Codes ? This is the wrong forum for sweeping generalisations :D (go to the majority of other forums :) )


The danger is that real harassment will often be covered up with a combination of officialdom and jesting. Just as with fun. When you are in the in-crowd having fun you will be oblivious to any appearance of clique-iness that acts as a shield to bad practices.

Harrased people should inform someone of authority that they were made to feel uncomfortable and why.
A list of rules surely isn't needed for the teacher / venue manager (or whoever) to decide what to do. The more red tape you have the more escalation of a simple event there could be.
'You upset someone! We'll give you the benefit of the doubt, don't do it again'
...is a simple way to handle a problem social situation of a mild nature. Too often organisations and people shirk social responsibilities by hiding behind and spouting rules and regulations that shouldn't be necessary for minor incidents. For major incidents, surely the person would be banned and/or the police would be involved. And if rules are ultimately at the discretion of someone then why write the rules? (I have an Anarchy Rules t-shirt but no one gets the joke)


and secondly putting the list of moves on a board.

That was quoted as a LeRoc idea :) Hey, in fact NZ and OZ Ceroc stole the name from Ceroc Ltd UK didnt they - shocking :) or was it the other way round. Must prove that Ceroc is a dance after all and not just a company. (see other dead but very long thread).

:D

Lounge Lizard
6th-August-2003, 06:23 PM
Hi, dont agree with assesments (yes I have read them).

A good teacher will understad his class and make sure it is fun, safe , informative and entertaining - I am sure NZ are great but in the UK we probably have more experienced Ceroc/Modern Jive dancers and teachers than anywhere else in the world.
I think they have done pretty well without 'assesments'

I recently met up with a New Zeland dancer who thought we were far better than the dancing 'back home'.

It does not mattere if it is Ceroc, Leroc or modern jive by any other name, the best assesmnts are by the dancers, who in my experience vote with their feet. (or a convient forum)

Also there are a number of teachers I know of who would easily pass any formal assesment and promptly bore the pants off the class. Whereas the really talented ones use other means!

Basil Brush (Forum Plant)
6th-August-2003, 06:27 PM
Lizard- you spell worst than a fox! And I thought you creatures were clever....

Lounge Lizard
6th-August-2003, 06:46 PM
have you ever tried to teach a lizard to spell!

Jon
6th-August-2003, 07:34 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
<li>getting a spontaneous round of applause when a dance finished {:D:Dthis is my latest milestone:D:D}

I achieved this this week. Humm so now what do I have to aim for?

Jon
6th-August-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Chris
women have often complained that they get 'stuck' in a challenging intermediate class with someone who is very much a beginner

Agree with this but it happens with the guys getting a beginner lady too.

Not sure how you can address this issue but it's not fun doing an intermediate class when one of you is obviously struggling. Quite often you see people who have been a couple of times and they join in the intermediate class because they don't want to do another class covering what they just did, even though they haven't mastered those moves yet.

Prehaps if the teachers were to make a point of saying you should have done at least 6 beginner classes before attempting the intermediate then if your not sure about joining in then ask a teacher or taxi dancer.

Fran
6th-August-2003, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Chris
You are :wink: - with or without winks - but would there be any point? :wink:

I am simply very surprised that given the negiative responses forum members have expressed to the idea of introducing formal assesments in a usual class that this has been taken as a favourable response to the NZ ideas.

we will just have to disagree on this point. The advantages of living in a democracy.

Alfie
6th-August-2003, 09:20 PM
we will just have to disagree on this point. The advantages of living in a democracy. [/B][/QUOTE]



Well said Fran

Gadget
6th-August-2003, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Jon
I achieved this this week. Humm so now what do I have to aim for?
cool :waycool: Don't ask me - I only acheived it last week! :wink: Hey, Tramp, what's next? :D

Originally posted by Chris
I'm pleased to see that the discussion has already adopted (unwittingly, no doubt) been more approving to two ideas from NZ
Really??
The board of idea is kind of redundant, since most venues have a 'diary' of moves that anyone can request to see - normally it's used by the taxi dancers so that they can check what moves were done the week before if anyone asks.

The 'harrasment' rules, again, are redundant since all the venue managers and teachers make themselves very aproachable and almost every regular would direct complaints in their direction.
Written rules are only as good as the enforcing behind them. The venus manages and teachers would be enforcing them. They do that just now. The rules are the same wherther written or not. Why do we need to "stare the obvious" in a written document?

Gus
6th-August-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
.........I am sure NZ are great but in the UK we probably have more experienced Ceroc/Modern Jive dancers and teachers than anywhere else in the world.........I recently met up with a New Zeland dancer who thought we were far better than the dancing 'back home'.



Couple of points .... I'm not sure how you can make a statement as to the aptitude of the NZ teachers when you've not met them. I have, and taught with some of them, been taught by others, and I would say they are at least equal to their UK counterparts.

As for UK being better than NZ .... DONT THINK SO!!! They each have their strong points ... NZ style is more demonstrative and dramatic, UK style lends more to the UCP and interpretative vast generalities I know ..... but I dont think the UK can feel superior, ... we can both learn from each oether:grin:

bigdjiver
6th-August-2003, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Gus
As for UK being better than NZ .... DONT THINK SO!!!

Not what was said:

" I am sure NZ are great but in the UK we probably have more experienced Ceroc/Modern Jive dancers and teachers than anywhere else in the world " - not the same thing.

frodo
7th-August-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by spindr
Well, I know that when I used to dance at Bristol Leroc (Michel Gay's old company) that there was an informal assessment.

Basically, just do a quick dance with a teacher to check that you were ok (safe?) to attend the intermediate class. Don't think it was ever too onerous. Does have the advantage that classes don't have to stop with a "And then do an Archie spin"... several minutes later "Ok, who doesn't know an Archie Spin?"...

Neil.
Elmgrove Leroc in Bristol still do this, though in practice I don't think it always happens. There may be some renewed emphasis on it at the moment though.

They have a fairly difficult intermediate class (incl relatively more dips and drops), and a second separate beginners class at the same time as the intermediate class, which are perhaps arguments for it.

Having said that there may be only one or two derivatives of a beginner move in the intermediate class and having only 2 levels is always going to be a big jump, so I cannot believe the moves of themselves are that important.

frodo
7th-August-2003, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
Really??
The board of idea is kind of redundant, since most venues have a 'diary' of moves that anyone can request to see - normally it's used by the taxi dancers so that they can check what moves were done the week before if anyone asks.
[/B]

Redundant?? :devil:

There is a big difference between a seconds glance and asking to see a book.

As Stubob says it really helps.

It is an invaluable aid to keeping track of what you were doing 30 mins ago in the lesson, as a prompt when practicing in freestyle.

It is great being able to see what the beginners have just done, and to have an idea of what to expect in the intermediate class.

It is one of the nice things I see in Modern Jive compared to Salsa. :)

Gary
7th-August-2003, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by DavidB

I've known a lot of very good dancers over the last 18 years. After a period of going to 'advanced' classes, only to find that they are really just intermediate classes taught a bit quicker, with exactly the same mix of beginners and intermediate dancers you get at any normal class, a lot of advanced dancers stop enjoying modern jive. Some move onto a different style of dance. Others stop dancing altogether. It seems a shame to have a system in place that encourages you to get to a certain level, but doesn't want you to get any higher.

I would like to see the occasional advanced workshops that are aimed at advanced/keen dancers. This is not something you would do at normal class nights. It would be for big weekend events where there are enough dancers to make it worthwhile, and enough teachers to provide several different alternatives. In trying to cater for a minority, you should not ignore the majority. (And it is a minority - advanced technique classes in London are lucky to get more than 20 dancers turning up.)

And rather than simplify these advanced classes to make them suitable for more people, I'd rather be more demanding of the dancers taking part. This could involve attending a previous workshop, or asking the teacher if he/she thinks you would benefit from it. I don't think anything more formal would be good for Jive in the UK. So while I agree that for normal classes there is no need for assessments of any kind, there may be a case for some kind of standard-checking for some true advanced workshops.

David

Nicky's just started running some Advanced class nights. To join in the advanced class you need to have been assessed by an advanced teacher. During the advanced class another teacher runs a normal intermediate class in another room. The plan was to run one every six weeks, but the feedback was so positive it looks like she'll be running them more frequently.

I'm one of the "improving is part of the fun" people, so I'm very happy that Nicky is catering to that (without (hopefully) alienating folks who aren't so obsessive).

DavidB
7th-August-2003, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I am sure NZ are great but in the UK we probably have more experienced Ceroc/Modern Jive dancers and teachers than anywhere else in the world. Without having seen many NZ teachers, I think the only thing you can say is that we have more teachers. My impression of the few Australian and NZ teachers I've seen is that they are at least as good as UK teachers.


Originally posted by Fran
It has been mentioned by experienced dancers who have visited NZ / Australia there appears to be a slight gap in the market for musical interpretation and improvisation in NZ.Musical Interpretation is a very recent phenomenon in Jive in the UK. In the championships 5 years ago, only 2 couples seemed to listen to the music at all. It is definitely more widespread now, and, like Fran, I understand it is a difference between UK and Aus/NZ dancing. But now look at what they teach in Sydney:

From the Ceroc & Modern Jive Co Website (http://www.cerocdance.com.au/events.htm)
The GOLD Level Advanced Classes will take your freestyle dancing to another level, focusing on dance topics including "playing with rhythm & syncopations", "fancy footwork", "improvisations", "Latin rhythm & Cuban motion", "using music highs & lows", "body lines and extensions", "freestyling lifts & mini-aerials" and other styling and finishing touch techniques that separate the GREAT dancers from the good dancers.....
Where in the UK do they offer regular classes like that?

David

Gary
7th-August-2003, 01:14 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
My impression of the few Australian and NZ teachers I've seen is that they are at least as good as UK teachers.


Funnily enough, most of my favourite teachers are originally from the UK: (Simon de Lisle, Nicky Haslam, Julie Gunn).

Lounge Lizard
7th-August-2003, 07:16 AM
I know from experience the difficulty in teaching advanced moves to a large 'open' class/workshop.
Does the teacher ask the non advanced dancers to leave - guaranteed to annoy many, or equally unpopular dumb the class down?

I know of one venue where there is an free (beginners) introduction class every week (1 hour long running simultaneously with the regular beginners class), regular beginners lesson, intermediate lesson and then an advanced class expanding on the intermediate moves and taught at a fast pace for the experienced dancer, usually 15min long.
Also the lessons are videoed and played back the following week between 7.30 and 8.00.

There is also a venue which puts it's moves on the website every week.
What other idea's formats have proved successful?

TheTramp
7th-August-2003, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
cool :waycool: Don't ask me - I only acheived it last week! :wink: Hey, Tramp, what's next? :DI have no idea. I'll let you know once it's happened to me! :wink:

Steve

Chris
7th-August-2003, 08:06 AM
(originally posted in the wrong thread . . . sorry to anyone who didn't want to see it twice - or once even)

Before the thread dies out . . .

NZ Beginner Assessment (http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/dance/beginnersassessment.html)
Intermediate Assessment (http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/dance/intermediateassessment.html)

Gadget's idea sounded cool I thought.

btw I know I may seem to put my ideas rather strongly at times - I'm usually more interested in the debate than being attached to a particular point of view usually though.
:cheers:

Lou
7th-August-2003, 08:33 AM
Originally posted by frodo
Elmgrove Leroc in Bristol still do this.... And fair play to them for it - it's great to have challenging moves & routines. However, the step up between Beginners & Intermediates at Elmgrove is the most difficult & daunting of all Bristol classes because the Intermediates class is so taxing.

Compare the atmosphere of Elmgrove with Yate, where they offer the easiest Intermediates, and no assessments. I can assure you that Yate is far more welcoming. :grin:

We are lucky in Bristol that we can pick & choose the type of class that best suits us. :grin:

Gadget
7th-August-2003, 08:48 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I have no idea. I'll let you know once it's happened to me! :wink:
:rofl: Every party I have seen you at, you have been leading at least one dance which got spontaneous applause!

PeterL
7th-August-2003, 11:00 AM
The only applause I get is when the instructor says to applaud your partner in the begginers class.

:tears: :tears: :tears:

I definitely don't want to be assessed.

Graham
7th-August-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by PeterL
The only applause I get is when the instructor says to applaud your partner in the begginers class. :confused: You mean some girls actually do that? :confused: Oh! :what: :tears:

Getting back on topic, I think that many people come to Ceroc purely to have fun and have reached a level of ability they're content with. Sometimes they're subconsciously aware/afraid that this is perhaps not as high a level as other people, but they don't really want to compare themselves, and to do so would inhibit their enjoyment. Other people are highly motivated to improve their dancing, and although some progress can be made on your own, this is much more efficient when feedback is obtained from someone else who is good enough to see/understand what can be improved. Unless a dance venue wants to concentrate on one group of people or the other, it seems to me that it is necessary to make feedback readily available to people who want it, but in a way which doesn't make those who don't want it uncomfortable. I haven't been to NZ, but I find it difficult to see how the assessment process, however friendly and informal, could not have a tendency to put off those who don't want to be compared with others.

I think it's a good idea for organisations to have codes of conduct, but whether they should exist and what should be in them is a matter for the franchisees, and whilst some of them may be more or less interested in what gets posted here, I don't think anything we say or think is likely to prove decisive in determining whether codes of conduct are adopted in the UK. In any case they would almost certainly adopt codes which equated to the status quo, so I'm not sure any of us would see any difference.

I agree with the comment earlier about a sexual harrassment policy only being as good as the enforcement. Whether one exists or not is largely academic - what's important is that people know who to approach if they have a concern. I'm not sure that this actually is always known to people - maybe we could make more of a point of identifying the point of contact for ANY type of complaint.

TheTramp
7th-August-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
:rofl: Every party I have seen you at, you have been leading at least one dance which got spontaneous applause! Oh. I assumed that was a sort of sympathy applause thing for the poor girl that was dancing with me... :rolleyes:

Steve

Gadget
7th-August-2003, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Oh. I assumed that was a sort of sympathy applause thing for the poor girl that was dancing with me... :rolleyes:
ahhh, that would explain it {:confused: when do you ever applaud people in simpathy?? I have weird image in my head of a coffin going down into the hole and the mourners applauding :what:}

Originally posted by Graham
it seems to me that it is necessary to make feedback readily available to people who want it, but in a way which doesn't make those who don't want it uncomfortable.
Any sugestions then?

Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
Does the teacher ask the non advanced dancers to leave - guaranteed to annoy many, or equally unpopular dumb the class down?
I would hope that people would only subscribe to classes(workshops) that they though they were good enough for - the teacher should not have to ask anyone to leave or dumb down the lessons; if one individual is not keeping up with the rest, then (as harsh as it sounds) tough!

I know of one venue where there is an free (beginners) introduction class every week
I don't think that this makes a viable business model unless you have lots of people in the other classes to make up for it. As to having more than one class running at the same time, I can see problems of space, communication and having two teachers at the one venue. It obviously works, but to me it seems like a lot of work from the organisers for very little reward.

Also the lessons are videoed and played back the following week between 7.30 and 8.00.
Interesting...

There is also a venue which puts it's moves on the website every week.
We have play-lists in here: it seems a small step to also put classes in here as well. The only majour down side I can see to this would be plagerism.

Lou
7th-August-2003, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
have weird image in my head of a coffin going down into the hole and the mourners applauding :what:} Totally off topic, but I can imagine myself doing that very thing at the funerals of three specific people I work with at the moment. :grin: Thanks for cheering me up, Gadget! :hug:

DavidB
7th-August-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
The only major downside I can see to this would be plagiarism. Why? If you have taught something, and then publish either a list or a video of what you have taught, then who is being plagiarised?

David

Graham
7th-August-2003, 02:48 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Any sugestions then? The ideas I have had already been mentioned - obviously workshops, but also making sure people know they can ask taxis/teachers for advice (and making sure taxis/teachers are approachable and are willing/able to help!) In another thread we've also discussed at length the merit of different class structures (putting more style into the intermediate class for example). Maybe there could be a workshop specifically aimed at individual feedback, but perhaps this is moving too far towards the individual coaching model that other dance styles have.

michael
7th-August-2003, 02:48 PM
Quote from Graham: I think that many people come to Ceroc purely to have fun and have reached a level of ability they're content with. Sometimes they're subconsciously aware/afraid that this is perhaps not as high a level as other people, but they don't really want to compare themselves, and to do so would inhibit their enjoyment.

Other people are highly motivated to improve their dancing, and although some progress can be made on your own, this is much more efficient when feedback is obtained from someone else who is good enough to see/understand what can be improved.

Well done to Graham for just about summing the whole issue up completely.

The motivated ones (or mad keen to learn like me) are no doubt in the minority but surely those types will (eventually i trust) give more pleasure to more people if they can dance well as quickly as their own ability free time and dedication allows. I also believe strongly that those who are already good dancers enhance the quality and enjoyment of the whole class. Without them the class would become boring and dull. I notice that Franck dances with everyone in the Glasgow class (yes beginners as well) which is great, so too are the events that he is organising. These events if like some other sports, rarely make the organiser money. They are there to keep you interested and make the whole aspect more enjoying.
As to beginners going ahead of themselves and taking classes they are not ready for i sympathise with those more experienced who have to put up with us (me in Perth for sure). It would be great if all the workshops were available as you progress but that is not the case and keen beginners will seek out any workshops and accept they will extract a small amount out of some in comparison to more experienced dancers. I would and do hate holding people back if i do not grasp a particular move. so i suppose the teacher at a workshop could separate the confident from the not so confident and rotate them accordingly.

Assessments can be binned for sure but as Graham said progress and feedback CAN be improved. Or made available without fuss to those that want it. Take the Glasgow class (last night) the three moves in the intermediate class. I got the first part no problem but didn't like it, I still dont know the second and third parts ( i liked parts of it). I dont want to be a pest and have to ask or explain, since i dont know the names of the moves. I just want to quietly look at a highly visable board with all the parts of the move detailed (named). i can then mark them in my un-used book of moves and ask (eventually) someone who knows them!

I did go to a beginner workshop recently and advise anyone just started to go as soon as you can they are a must for sure!!!!

Aplogise for the long response (blame the sun):blush:

Fran
7th-August-2003, 03:28 PM
Using Fran's computer and can't be bothered logging out !!!!....
just caught up with this thread ( been away in England for a few days) and as usual the most articulate contribution is from DavidB ( and of course from Fran :grin: )


Having danced in NZ I found their classes different and they clearly take the whole thing much more seriously than we do here. The dancers I met were slightly different but not necessarily any better than many dancers here. There were some superb dancers but they tended to be the teachers.

I think we did discuss the issue of more advanced classes somewhere on here and I think this would be a very good idea as there are now quite a number of excellent dancers in Scotland who might want to improve and Franck and Scot are making this possible by getting the likes of Adam up here and having workshops. But in the past the only way to improve beyond the Intermediate classes was to head south to the likes of Beach Boogie or to workshops by N&N or V&L.

Possibly the one good thing about an assessemnt would be that the dancers ( and there are a few) who think they are just wonderful would be brought down to earth with a thud when told that they can't do the moves and that they are not dancing to the beat - well not the one that everyone else can hear !!!!

As for any kind of code of conduct I think this should go without saying but maybe some men ( and maybe some women) need clearer guidance about what's 'appropriate'. I know of several instances where dancers have been 'reported' for being too intimate either physically or verbally. Even worse of course if the person is a member of staff - possibly a taxi dancer who would of course know exactly what was and was not appropriate. And in that case the person responsible should be banned - see Gus's thread.

Good to be back :cheers: :D

Bill

Grant
7th-August-2003, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Fran

Possibly the one good thing about an assessemnt would be that the dancers ( and there are a few) who think they are just wonderful would be brought down to earth with a thud
Bill
but bill, i don't think i'm wonderful...
i struggle to have delusions of adequacy :D

Grant

Sheepman
7th-August-2003, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Fran
Having danced in NZ I found their classes different and they clearly take the whole thing much more seriously than we do here.
This certainly wasn't the case when I danced in NZ, though it wasn't in Auckland. The whole event was very low key, and the best dancers there (including the teacher), were another couple from the UK. I suppose you get a flavour of the dedication of the Aucklanders if you do Amir's classes. I think it comes down to the factors of technique, style, or fun. No, they are not mutually exclusive, but when you are starting out and getting that immediate buzz from dancing, spending time on technique and style may seem tedious. Though I think this subject has been done to death on other threads.

First posted by Michael
highly visable board with all the parts of the move detailed (named)
Maybe it's not a bad idea to have the names of moves listed down, (Nigel and Nina sometimes have the basics noted down for their blues classes, which can be helpful.) But I am a bit concerned about getting too hung up on names, for the followers, the names are mostly unimportant. Many teachers don't make any mention of names at all during their lessons. If you plan to make notes of the lessons just make up your own names that mean something to you. They can always be amended later if you discover a proper name for it.
Maybe when you're starting out, it feels essential to have a "hook" for every move, and to be able to catalogue them in some way. OK it is sometimes essential, if a verbal signal is the only way, (eg who ever leads a Columbian without calling out "Columbian"?), but knowing how to lead it is much more important than a name.

Greg

Chicklet
7th-August-2003, 04:07 PM
it's been mentioned twice this week but I can't think - what does a Columbian look like please, thank you.:D

Graham
7th-August-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by michael
Take the Glasgow class (last night) the three moves in the intermediate class. I got the first part no problem but didn't like it, I still dont know the second and third parts ( i liked parts of it). I dont want to be a pest and have to ask or explain, since i dont know the names of the moves. I just want to quietly look at a highly visable board with all the parts of the move detailed (named). i can then mark them in my un-used book of moves and ask (eventually) someone who knows them! Firstly, I think your experience is almost universal - as I understand it you haven't been doing intermediate classes for very long, and I think it takes most people a while to start understanding/remembering the moves well enough to be able to do them on your own after the class. Secondly, Mairi would have been happy to show you the moves if you'd asked. In fact if you don't ask right away you'll HAVE to ask her (or another teacher) as they're the only ones who would reliably know which move you were talking about, as hardly anyone else remembers the intermediate moves by name.

Graham
7th-August-2003, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
it's been mentioned twice this week but I can't think - what does a Columbian look like please, thank you.:D Swarthy south american type, probably armed, and very likely to be connected to the cocaine trade. :wink:

I'll show you on Saturday.

Gary
7th-August-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Gadget

I would hope that people would only subscribe to classes(workshops) that they though{t} they were good enough for - the teacher should not have to ask anyone to leave or dumb down the lessons; if one individual is not keeping up with the rest, then (as harsh as it sounds) tough!



Two problems with this: people can wildly over-estimate (and under-estimate) their ability, and it's not just the individual who'll be finding it tough, but their partner as well.

I expect most folks have been stuck with someone in class who really shouldn't be in that class, and it's a pain.

When it happens to me it's only a little bit annoying. It can be downright dangerous though for a girl stuck with an over-confident, under-competent guy.

Chicklet
7th-August-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Swarthy south american type, probably armed, and very likely to be connected to the cocaine trade. :wink:

I'll show you on Saturday.


oohhh Graham's coming in costume!!!!!:waycool:
does this mean I have to get the blazer out???

Graham
7th-August-2003, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by Chicklet
does this mean I have to get the blazer out??? *Thinks for a femtosecond* I guess it does, Chickie. :yum: :wink:

Aleks
7th-August-2003, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Sheepman
OK it is sometimes essential, if a verbal signal is the only way, (eg who ever leads a Columbian without calling out "Columbian"?), but knowing how to lead it is much more important than a name.

Greg

Brian does.........not call it, at least with me (just to be clear!).

PeterL
7th-August-2003, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Aleks
Brian does.....

When taught the Columbian here you are not taught to use a verbal signal. In fact I have never used a verbal signal for a move ever.
Am I missing something are verbal signals normal, do most people use them for a lot of the more complicated moves?
:confused:

DavidB
7th-August-2003, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by PeterL
In fact I have never used a verbal signal for a move ever. I use verbal leads for lifts if we ever get asked to do a freestyle cabaret. Otherwise I don't use them. But I don't think I do the Columbian anyway?

If you watch most couples doing competitions, you will see verbal leads - the lady reminding the man about all the moves he has forgotten!

David

Dance Demon
7th-August-2003, 06:04 PM
Yes they are Peter. I did a couple of workshops at the recent Scottish Swing Riot, taught by Gary & Sarah Boon, and he talked about "calling" moves when there is no obvious physical signal possible. Doing moves in time with your partner is all about communicating well, and that means verbally as well as physically.
I'm sure that all the top dancers do this(though I'm sure someone might say i'm wrong,as it might not be in the code of practice that I didn't bother to read:wink: )

Lounge Lizard
7th-August-2003, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Oh. I assumed that was a sort of sympathy applause thing for the poor girl that was dancing with me... :rolleyes:

Steve

Steve please drop this "I'm not a very good dancer" line, you are, and you love the applause.
If you did not like or expect the applause why dance at the most visible point!

Dance-floor geography
Beginners tend to be at the back where no one can watch them.
Advanced dancers will be at the front where everyone can watch them
The rest.....they don't give a dam and find the coolest part of the floor with space.

Good luck at Bristol I wont be there

frodo
7th-August-2003, 10:37 PM
Originally posted by Chris

NZ Beginner Assessment (http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/dance/beginnersassessment.html)


From Beginner Assessment
Focus areas are timing, leading or following, single spin, hand and arm tension, floorcraft and freestyle ability.
... ...
has been assessed ... as a competent and confident Beginner level dancer.



From the FAQ at http://www.ceroc.co.nz/faq.html
You are eligible to move up to Intermediate class if you have a good sense of rhythm and timing.


Glad to be able to look at these assessment forms.


Just a couple of thoughts:-

Do you really need much in the way of freestyle ability to simply follow a class ?

How long it takes to develop a good sense of rhythm and timing, if you don't start Ceroc with one ? Again do you need more than a basic sense of rhythm and timing to get though a class ?

Dreadful Scathe
8th-August-2003, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by frodo
Do you really need much in the way of freestyle ability to simply follow a class ?

I don't think you need any freestyle ability whatsoever to do an intermediate class, i think the quicker you can do an intermediate class the quicker you are able to know enough moves to dance freestyle at all , or in my case it was knowing enough moves to finish a whole dance without having to 'think' what the next move was going to be. Everyone learns differently though and strict rules would just mean that some will fit the rules and others will suffer because of them. Leaving it up to people to choose when to join intermediate is the best way i think.


Originally posted by frodo

How long it takes to develop a good sense of rhythm and timing, if you don't start Ceroc with one ? Again do you need more than a basic sense of rhythm and timing to get though a class ?

No you don't, there are some dancers who have been dancing for years who still don't have much rhythm but it shouldn't stop them doing intermediate classes to learn new moves if they want to. Karaokes would be dull if they stopped all the tone deaf people singing wouldn't they :). Introducing assesment forms is forcing a level of seriousness onto people who may not appreciate it (ceroc has been called a 'social dance' on occasion y'know), for the people who want to develop what talent they have as much as they can - they're really not going to get much out of intermediate classes anyway. Can you imagine TheTramp stuggling to 'pick up' a move in an intermediate class even with a beginner partner ? (Tramp no 'but...' comments please ;) ) :D

PeterL
8th-August-2003, 11:02 AM
All classes get rotated and if you are with someone with not much ability always try and remember we were all there once.

The first few intermediates anyone does, they are rubbish unless they are naturally talented.

DavidB
8th-August-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by frodo
Do you really need much in the way of freestyle ability to simply follow a class?This is a good question. Depends on what you mean by freestyle ability?

To be able to dance freestyle, an man needs to be able to lead one move whilst thinking of the next. In a class he doesn't have to think of the next move - he only has to remember it! And you are doing the class to learn a move, so you are also learning how to lead it. So no - I don't think the man needs any freestyle ability to do an intermediate class.

All a lady has to be able to do in freestyle is follow. If the man is still learning how to lead the new move, then there is probably not enough to follow. So again the lady does not necessarily have to have any freestyle ability.

But if you were watching a couple dance, if they could do freestyle you would probably call them intermediate. If they couldn't you would say they were beginners. So you could argue that freestyle ability is a principal skill needed for an intermediate.

Like I said - a good question.

David

Gadget
8th-August-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
To be able to dance freestyle, an man needs to be able to lead one move whilst thinking of the next.
Oh oh. :what: I guess I'm back to beginner status then. :tears:

DavidB
8th-August-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I guess I'm back to beginner status then. That is another Tramp-style beginner...

Fran
8th-August-2003, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
If you watch most couples doing competitions, you will see verbal leads - the lady reminding the man about all the moves he has forgotten!

David

mmmm, sound familair, however I must stress that it happens just as much in reverse with Bill and I. :rofl:

we use verbal leads a resonable amount, the only problem occurs when Bill says "leg" and I'm not sure which one of several moves which involves the " leg" he means!!:sick: as hapened last night!woops!!!:blush:


looking forward to seeing you and lily on saturday david!
:hug:
fran

Fran
8th-August-2003, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by Fran
looking forward to seeing you and lily on saturday david!
:hug:
fran

I mean a week on staurday! not tomorrow. :sorry

TheTramp
8th-August-2003, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
That is another Tramp-style beginner... I don't think that there can possibly be another Tramp-style beginner. Which you should all be very happy about.

I'm an in-duh-vidual (Dilbert) :rolleyes:

Steve

Gadget
8th-August-2003, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
That is another Tramp-style beginner...
no where near the tramp's style. :D Perhaps not a beginner, but I don't think I've reached "advanced"... yet.

DavidB
8th-August-2003, 09:58 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I don't think that there can possibly be another Tramp-style beginner. Maybe not in this country. There is a West Coast Swing dancer in California called Carlito Rofoli. He always introduces himself saying "Don't worry - I'm just a beginner".

He is one of the smoothest and coolest WCS dancers around. On second thoughts Steve you may be right!

David

LilyB
8th-August-2003, 10:31 PM
Thought-provoking thread (or should that be simply "provoking thread"?:wink: )

From the NZ Intermediate Assessment requirements, what exactly is "strong clear lead " and "consistent good technique "? I, personally, have my own ideas/interpretation of these 2 phrases but I will be the last person to say that my ideas/interpretation are the definitive ones and that all else is wrong. I base my technique and my views on what is good leading on what I have learned from various teachers over the past 3 decades in the field of West Coast Swing, Theatre-arts, Ballroom & Latin, and ballet. Someone from a Jazz or Salsa background may have totally different views and technique from me.

For example, I personally consider it bad technique to "bounce" the (connecting) hand up & down as IMHO it affects the connection and can make it difficult for the lady to feel the lead. However, I am aware of a significant number of advanced dancers and Ceroc teachers who frequently do this. So ..... is that good or bad technique? Whose decision?

Another example - I personally do not equate "strong" lead with "good" lead. I am (so I believe) quite light on my feet and able to propel myself to where my partner leads me without need for "strong" leading. On the contrary, a man who leads "strongly" more often than not causes me difficulties in balance, connection and limits my ablity to style. I am, however, all for "clear" leading but my view is that subtle leads can be just as clear as physically strong ones, particularly when accompanied by body leads, eye-contact, hand positioning etc.. In my opinion, a good leader uses all of that when leading; he does not lead by just using strength to "make" the girl execute the move. Yet in all the years (many!) I have attended or seen Ceroc classes, I have very rarely come across any teacher who teaches the above-mentioned alternative leads. So, again, ........ who says "strong clear lead" is necessarily a good thing?

The conclusion therefore that I (personally) have reached as far as the question raised on this thread is concerned, is that I would not like to see assessments for all in Ceroc - probably because I would fail?!! :blush: For those people who wish to improve their dancing by having such assessments, they have the option of taking private lessons - a much better way of improving your dancing!

LilyB

DavidY
9th-August-2003, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by DavidB
To be able to dance freestyle, an man needs to be able to lead one move whilst thinking of the next.I think the only way I can do this is to dance moves often enough until I can do them subconsciously - if I started actually thinking about what I was doing I'd be in trouble. :sick:

I also reckon that compared to dancing in a relaxed freestyle environment in a crowd, I'd suddenly dance a lot worse if I was conscious that someone was assessing or watching me.

David

Lounge Lizard
9th-August-2003, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by LilyB
Thought-provoking thread (or should that be simply "provoking thread"?:wink: )

I base my technique and my views on what is good leading on what I have learned from various teachers over the past 3 decades in the field of West Coast Swing, Theatre-arts, Ballroom & Latin, and ballet. Someone from a Jazz or Salsa background may have totally different views and technique from me.

For example, I personally consider it bad technique to "bounce" the (connecting) hand up & down as IMHO it affects the connection and can make it difficult for the lady to feel the lead. However, I am aware of a significant number of advanced dancers and Ceroc teachers who frequently do this. So ..... is that good or bad technique? Whose decision?

Another example - I personally do not equate "strong" lead with "good" lead. I am (so I believe) quite light on my feet and able to propel myself to where my partner leads me without need for "strong" leading. On the contrary, a man who leads "strongly" more often than not causes me difficulties in balance, connection and limits my ablity to style.

I have very rarely come across any teacher who teaches the above-mentioned alternative leads. So, again, ........ who says "strong clear lead" is necessarily a good thing?

The conclusion therefore that I have reached as far as the question raised on this thread is concerned, is that I would not like to see assessments for all in Ceroc - probably because I would fail?!! :blush: For those people who wish to improve their dancing by having such assessments, they have the option of taking private lessons - a much better way of improving your dancing!

LilyB

I agree it should be possible to lead your partner with a fingertip touch which I find far preferable to the 'strong' approach, there are certain moves however that I have to lead in a strong and decisive way, those that know me will understand.

Chris
9th-August-2003, 04:21 PM
trying again
Ok, I'll have another shot (after getting my last post bumped), keeping my post to things that don't mention why I left Scottish Ceroc or anyone else or why I feel/felt attacked.

I'm not very good at 'light chat'. People take me over seriously. I joined the forum because I like talking about dance. I;m not used to people being enraged if I am provocative.

Neither am I very good at using the 'smilies' - I had tried to add one for the post that caused a furore and it didn't work - I must have mis-typed or deleted a colon or something, but I thought people would take it as slightly provocative in a tongue in cheek sort of way. I didn't expect people to like the idea of assessments, neither do I (personally) think they could or should be introduced in the UK (even though they work well abroad.) But I felt they would spark off interesting self-examination for us as a varied group of dancers, and I sincerely feel that there was a lot of useful discussion in between the flames.

On Codes of Practice I am slightly more in favour than against (this is as someone whose academic background is in philosophical ethics), but they are hard to introduce and not always effective and sometimes counter-effective. I could discuss this technically but it doesn't really concern dance (email me if you're interested),

I loved the interesting pieces people have written lately about spinning, different types of leads, advanced classes - this sort of thing (very much the area I like discussing - see the essay on lead and follow on my website for instance). I especially liked the pieces by David and Lily B and desperately wanted to talk about that stuff.

As I said on the Jive Extras post (please see), I would like people not to confuse this with thinking that I view myself as some sort of expert or am 'up myself'. It might be the way I come over at times - I get my fun by taking hobbies like dancing, cooking, films etc quite seriously. My 'fun' is from things like perfect frame (if and when it happens) and hitting the beat perfectly (when it happens) and being so synchronised that even a fast and complex move (or slow dramatic one) flows gently and effortlessly.

I don't get any social fun out of ceroc in Edinburgh (the way I used to years ago - now it gets in the way as I feel excluded) but I do miss the dancing, and my love to all of you who I would love to dance with more often.

Kind regards

Chris (Docker)
http://www.docker.demon.co.uk/
:hug:

Gus
9th-August-2003, 08:29 PM
Mabye ..... this discussion needs to be seen in context ... i.e. the NZ context. Though its grown up from similar roots and, despite what may have been said, is more similar than dissimilar in dancing ... I think there is a difference about how it is taught and the attitude towards the dance. I think there is a far greater desire to improve and learn in NZ, and maybe less of the 'pure' social thing that we have in the UK. That is not to say that either approach is 'better' ... just that the grading system over there seesm to work .... but I'm not sure that it would work here.

Personal view of course.

Chris
10th-August-2003, 09:21 AM
Originally posted by LilyB

For example, I personally consider it bad technique to "bounce" the (connecting) hand up & down as IMHO it affects the connection and can make it difficult for the lady to feel the lead. However, I am aware of a significant number of advanced dancers and Ceroc teachers who frequently do this. So ..... is that good or bad technique? Whose decision?


I personally prefer the 'non-bounce' to the bounce or semi-circles (we went thru both at the recent jive extras day) for the same reasons you mention. Much easier (IMO for the style and moves I like) to provide an accurate lead. But it got me wondering - why do many advanced dancers prefer the semi-circle? (apart from it being Ceroc convention here)? My guess is the decorative styling that some people like, but would any advocates of this style of lead like to comment?

I also got to wondering how people who use this style well still manage to convey a precise lead. Is it the deflection of momentum? How does it work? Are we drawing semi-circles and then within that general movement the follower senses small variations ('micro-leads' / 'pre-leads' or 'prep-leads')?

As to whether one style or the other is 'better', although it could depend on fixed convention (if the dance school / Ceroc group considers it essential), what about the comment that if two people are dancing with different styles, it is up to the person who can adapt to do so . . . ?


Originally posted by LilyB

Another example - I personally do not equate "strong" lead with "good" lead. I am (so I believe) quite light on my feet and able to propel myself to where my partner leads me without need for "strong" leading. On the contrary, a man who leads "strongly" more often than not causes me difficulties in balance, connection and limits my ablity to style.


I was once told in a style workshop (maybe cerocshop) that the follower should respond to / try to equal the amount of tension offered by the leader, but in practice I find I tend to do the opposite - ie respond to the lightness/firmness my partner is using. The exception for me is if it goes to extremes, especially with relative beginners - if a big -boned lady starts pulling hard on my arm I tend to just 'let' her until she eases off; similarly if a partner seems to have too no frame I try to communicate enough tension for lead and follow in a fun sort of way.

'Strong' lead to me means a 'clear' lead, like somebody speaking with perfect articulation, not 'strong' in the sense of rough or 'shouting'. One of my concerns is when I'm dancing with a relatively experienced dancer sometimes who has very different experience to mine. If she does not recognise 'patterns' in the lead then I tend to slip into the more rounded style (bouncy hand) - some followers seem to find this reassuring but I'd rather find ways of managing to use the 'non-bouncy' lead more exclusively . . . (any suggestions or tips from leaders who use the straight lead without semi-circles please?)


Originally posted by Lounge Lizard
I agree it should be possible to lead your partner with a fingertip touch which I find far preferable to the 'strong' approach, there are certain moves however that I have to lead in a strong and decisive way, those that know me will understand.

Is that moves that require a very specific response / distribution of the follower's weight, things like that . . . ?

Lounge Lizard
10th-August-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by Chris
[



Is that moves that require a very specific response / distribution of the follower's weight, things like that . . . ? [/B]

No, not really, any move where you are taking [all or part off] your partners weight such as the lead into, the execution of, and the lead out off .....drops and seducers (or baby aerials).

I believe these moves should be lead (without signals) by the guy in a decisive way, but maintain the smooth rhythm (or bounce!) of the dance.
As well as keeping these moves in context with the music they should also be executed with regard to the space around you.
There are some guys who think nothing of lowering a ladies head to within six inches of a really crowded dance floor!
I would love to see their reaction if it happened to them!

On the Bounce - if it suits your dance style and the music (and does not annoy your partner) then keep it, I believe an advanced dancer should be able to change his style to suit his partner, the music and the environment (keep the moves close on a crowded floor).

What constitutes an advanced dancer - the smile on your partners face at the end of the record.
This is a PARTNER dance if you are an advanced dancer then your dance partner (irrespective of her level) should really enjoy dancing with you.

I know of (at least one) dancer/teacher who has won major competitions yet is not a popular dancer as he dances for himself and tends to use semi choreographed moves (often straight through the music break!!) without even acknowledging his partners existence.

If the ladies (or guys) wait on the side to dance with you, then you are probably an advanced dancer [or in Tramp's case a beginner with advanced dance technique - or the other description of trampy............perhaps not).

Breaks and music interpretation, great if done properly, but sometimes this goes to far, I recently danced with a lady (who has more breaks than a bar of KitKat) and the dance consisted of a first move then came her wiggling bit, so another first move followed by....you guessed it her wiggling bit.....yup we done this for the whole record and she had not noticed!

Gadget
11th-August-2003, 11:43 AM
Chris: I use the semi-circle, not as a start to dancing, but as a more gentle way to get some space between myself and my partner without just "pushing" them away. Same with winding them in; a semi-circle gives more control over the lady than a simple pull.

As to "Strong" leads - I take this as meaning a more dominating lead, giving the lady no real option but to follow the path guided. A "Clear" lead differs in that you show the lady the path and she walks it of her own accord.
When leading beginners I tend to increase the strength of the "Clear" lead in the hope that in future dances they respond to my normal lighter lead.
I also find that strong leads are usefull in some first move variations where a good 'frame' is required, some blocking moves and if I want to put some extra oomph into a spin.{:devil:} One thing that Adam taught{teaches} in his "Dirty Dancing" workshop is that for some UCP moves it looks and feels better to have a strong lead.

Lounge-Lizard: I like your definition of "Advanced" :wink:
Wit reference to "I believe these moves should be lead (without signals) by the guy in a decisive way, but maintain the smooth rhythm (or bounce!) of the dance.", IMHO I really don't think that it looks very good when the arms 'bounce' in and out all the time or there is a definite 'bob' to each and every beat: To me, music is split into 'phrases' - not beats. {if you don't get that, it's kind of hard to explain.:sorry:}

Lounge Lizard
11th-August-2003, 01:12 PM
The reference to the 'bounce' was a bit tongue in cheek following other comments in this thread.

At the Camber/Bognor weekends it is often possible to distinguish the Ceroc or swing dancers by their style or bounce.

Chris
11th-August-2003, 10:12 PM
in reply to Gadget -
I probably agree with most of what you said there . . .
Also though -

Originally posted by Gadget
I also find that strong leads are usefull in some first move variations where a good 'frame' is required
Agreed (some language differences, but in the main part, yes I do the same). Another one I use a lot in first move variations, is to use a 'formal' blues hold, right arm around the follower's back, 2nd fingertip just below her armpit, so I can lead her 'away' from me or maintain some space when required

Sheepman
14th-August-2003, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
I personally do not equate "strong" lead with "good" lead. I am (so I believe) quite light on my feet and able to propel myself to where my partner leads me without need for "strong" leading. I would suggest that the only time for a "strong" lead is when you are supporting your partners weight. I am far more conscious of being too strong with the lead with Lily (for example) because she is so light on her feet and responsive to the lead. Of course not everyone can be that good, but it is something to aim for, and how much more pleasant is the dance when it is a case of communicating, rather than being tugged around the floor.

Greg