Ballroom Tango to Argentinian Tango transition, any pointers?

[Terpsichorea]

Hi, I was wondering whether any of you tango aficionados started out learning Ballroom Tango before deciding to learn Argentinian Tango and/or incoporating it into MJ?

I have learned Ballroom Tango and have tried applying (some) of what I know into MJ, but it hasn't worked very successfully, so I was thinking of trying AT. Will the two styles feel very incompatible?

[David Bailey]

Oooh, a tango thread! :clap:

I asked this question on dance-forums (one response here (http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=420929&postcount=41))
From what I can gather, they are very different dances.

There may be some help going from one to the other - in the same way that, say, it helps to do salsa if you've done Cha-cha before. Or, it helps a bit to learn Italian if you know Spanish.

On the other hand, you've got to unlearn a lot of habits and remember which is which.

Dunno if that helps much... :blush:

[Terpsichorea]

Oooh, a tango thread! :clap:

I asked this question on dance-forums (one response here (http://www.dance-forums.com/showpost.php?p=420929&postcount=41))
From what I can gather, they are very different dances.

There may be some help going from one to the other - in the same way that, say, it helps to do salsa if you've done Cha-cha before. Or, it helps a bit to learn Italian if you know Spanish.

On the other hand, you've got to unlearn a lot of habits and remember which is which.

Dunno if that helps much... :blush:


I kind of get the impression (and admittedly I don't know much about AT) that Ballroom, by comparison, is a lot more rigid about what you can and can't do in terms of timing, frame etc. Oh well, the only way to find out is to do it, I s'pose :nice:

[spindr]

Ballroom tango is completely different in feel -- for a start you'll normally be dancing offset in ballroom tango, rather than normally directly facing. The connection in ballroom will be from the diaphragm, rather than from the chest, etc.

SpinDr

[David Bailey]

Ballroom tango is completely different in feel -- for a start you'll normally be dancing offset in ballroom tango, rather than normally directly facing. The connection in ballroom will be from the diaphragm, rather than from the chest, etc.
Also, you can dance "crossed" in AT, but not in Ballroom.

Plus, you don't have any of those head-flicky things in AT that you do in ballroom.

Hmmm.... the more I think about it, the more different they seem... :D

[Miguel]

Argentine Tango - Differences from Ballroom Tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Tango#Differences_from_Ballroom_Tango)

[Terpsichorea]

Argentine Tango - Differences from Ballroom Tango (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Tango#Differences_from_Ballroom_Tango)

Aha! Muchos gracias!

[Shodan]

I'm the same. I started in Ballroom tango for 3 years and have just moved to argentinian tango for the last few months.

I'm finding it very hard as I'm used to my rigid frame in BT and finding it hard to get into the more "suggestive" style of leading and following in AT whereas in BT the rigid frame allows for a more precise lead.

Thinking of giving AT up actually as I'm not getting it. That and my gorgeous tango partner is also moving away soon. :tears:

[David Bailey]

I'm finding it very hard as I'm used to my rigid frame in BT and finding it hard to get into the more "suggestive" style of leading and following in AT whereas in BT the rigid frame allows for a more precise lead.
I'm not sure if the lead in AT is "suggestive", really - more that it's incredibly subtle, so much so that I've had to tell my practice partner to be less reactive, because I need a bit of a "dampener" :what:

But certainly, you can't "force" a lead in AT, as such. Although you can, if you're a good leader, make the lead seem like the only possible - and the natural - choice for your follower.


Thinking of giving AT up actually as I'm not getting it. That and my gorgeous tango partner is also moving away soon. :tears:
If it's any consolation, I think all leaders go through that phase with AT regularly.

[rubyred]

For me Agentian tango does it all :awe: Having danced Ballroom tango I find in comaparison to AT it is too rigid and does not allow for spontaneous interpretation of the music.

In AT the movement is set by the music, the leader can interpret and lead you into a wonderfull moment in the music. AT is passionate, has attitude, has style and chic, is romantic and sexy.......:awe: :awe:

I now understand how CeeCee writes her posts on the topic of AT it is food for the soul........:flower:

[Spin dryer]

In AT the movement is set by the music, the leader can interpret and lead you into a wonderfull moment in the music. AT is passionate, has attitude, has style and chic, is romantic and sexy.......:awe: :awe:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

[Magic Hans]

Ballroom tango is completely different in feel -- for a start you'll normally be dancing offset in ballroom tango, rather than normally directly facing. The connection in ballroom will be from the diaphragm, rather than from the chest, etc.

SpinDr

I've done some, but little AT, and one of the items that I remember was the posture. AT,s being space at the feet, angled in toward the chest [Closed position can have the lady's head resting right over the blokes shoulder!! eyes shut!], hence the cuban heels worn by the blokes to assist the A-type frame.

Ballroom, which historically stemmed from AT, is more of a standard ballroom type hold - close at thighs, solid and apart at shoulders. AT was seen as far to risqué and sexual for Victorian Europe, and so was toned down ... baring in mind that (I believe this to be the case) it was linked to prostitution in Argentina.

Ian

[philsmove]

A couple of experienced ballroom dancers joined my AT class
The follower adapted very quickly but the lead found the classes very difficult
He was used to a routine and could not get used to “making up” (interpreting the music) as he went along. I have not done ballroom but I suspect it’s the same as changing from MJ to AT
The only similarity between Ballroom and AT is, its partner dance
The etiquette, the music and most difficult of all, the people, are very different

[Sparkles]

IMO learning ballroom tango hinders your ability to do AT.
I did ballroom dancing generally for a long time and my AT is TERRIBLE!
The main reason, I believe, is that the posture and lead are completely different between the two dances.
If you have the ability to forget everything you know about dancing ballroom tango you should get on with AT just fine :rolleyes: :flower:

[David Bailey]

IMO learning ballroom tango hinders your ability to do AT.
I did ballroom dancing generally for a long time and my AT is TERRIBLE!
The main reason, I believe, is that the posture and lead are completely different between the two dances.
If you have the ability to forget everything you know about dancing ballroom tango you should get on with AT just fine :rolleyes: :flower:
That begs the question, what is the point of Ballroom Tango? I'm still waiting to hear from anyone who prefers it over AT... :confused:

[Sparkles]

That begs the question, what is the point of Ballroom Tango? I'm still waiting to hear from anyone who prefers it over AT... :confused:

I think it depends on who you speak to - I know some ballroom dancers that would definitely prefer it.

What is the point of any partner dance?...

Personally I think that ballroom tango is my least favourite of the ballroom dances, but that's just a personal preference. Many people love it for it's intensity and passion. It's also ballroom training generally (not just learning tango) that will put you in a difficult postion if you try to learn AT.
AT has a completely different feel... some may perfer it, others may not.
It's horses for courses, David, and just because you don't see the point doesn't mean everyone thinks that way :flower:.

[David Bailey]

It's horses for courses, David, and just because you don't see the point doesn't mean everyone thinks that way :flower:.
Don't get me wrong - I'm fully in favour of the discipline engendered by ballroom training, and I'm envious of those (like you) who've had such training. :respect:

Ballroom technique definitely helps more than it hinders in my view. Yes, the posture is different, but lead-and-follow is lead-and-follow, and the very fact that you have to pay attention to posture means you think about it.

But ballroom tango was specifically created to be a bland European version of Argentinian Tango, back when AT wasn't accessible. It's not a dance which has evolved through cultural dances, like most of the other ballroom dances. It's a very artificial dance, in other words - even more so than MJ, in fact.

And as AT is now accessible, learning ballroom tango instead of AT seems a bit like learning Esperanto instead of Italian - yes, it's good discipline, and may be useful on some occasions, but you're not going to use it much in the real world.

[Terpsichorea]

Don't get me wrong - I'm fully in favour of the discipline engendered by ballroom training, and I'm envious of those (like you) who've had such training. :respect:

Ballroom technique definitely helps more than it hinders in my view. Yes, the posture is different, but lead-and-follow is lead-and-follow, and the very fact that you have to pay attention to posture means you think about it.

But ballroom tango was specifically created to be a bland European version of Argentinian Tango, back when AT wasn't accessible. It's not a dance which has evolved through cultural dances, like most of the other ballroom dances. It's a very artificial dance, in other words - even more so than MJ, in fact.

And as AT is now accessible, learning ballroom tango instead of AT seems a bit like learning Esperanto instead of Italian - yes, it's good discipline, and may be useful on some occasions, but you're not going to use it much in the real world.

Just my two penn'oth - I've spoken to ballroom instructors about BT, and interestingly, they're very insistent about the fact that it shouldn't be designated as part of the Latin group of ballroom dances. AT most definitely is (from what I've seen of it) thoroughly Latin, in terms of attitude, sexiness etc. There also seems to be (and I may be wrong here) a greater scope for improvisation in AT compared with BT, but this seems to be a characteristic difference between Ballroom and other forms of dance (such as Salsa and Lindy). Most people who I have encountered who learn ballroom dances tend to learn it around routines - they develop a routine and tend to stick to it, whereas in MJ, a core element of the dance is based around improvising. Most practitioners of BT will learn a fairly prescriptive way of dancing - you make your way across the floor in a fixed series of moves (adding or subtracting elements depending on floor length) but by and large, there isn't much scope for improvisation.

Just my impression.

[David Bailey]

Just my two penn'oth - I've spoken to ballroom instructors about BT, and interestingly, they're very insistent about the fact that it shouldn't be designated as part of the Latin group of ballroom dances.
:confused: It's not - Ballroom Tango is ballroom, not Latin, isn't it?

The 5 Ballroom dances are Waltz, Viennese Waltz, Quickstep, Foxtrot and Tango, I believe.
The 5 Latin dances are Samba, Jive, Cha cha, R(h)umba and Paso Doble.

The difference is mainly based on progression and hold, I think.

I think some ballroom dances are lovely (waltz, cha cha, fotxtrot, rumba) - but other dances, you look at them and wonder what on Earth they're doing there? Viennese Waltz is another example of this... And Paso Doble for that matter, has anyone ever danced Paso socially?

[Terpsichorea]

:confused: It's not - Ballroom Tango is ballroom, not Latin, isn't it?

The 5 Ballroom dances are Waltz, Viennese Waltz, Quickstep, Foxtrot and Tango, I believe.
The 5 Latin dances are Samba, Jive, Cha cha, R(h)umba and Paso Doble.

The difference is mainly based on progression and hold, I think.

I think some ballroom dances are lovely (waltz, cha cha, fotxtrot, rumba) - but other dances, you look at them and wonder what on Earth they're doing there? Viennese Waltz is another example of this... And Paso Doble for that matter, has anyone ever danced Paso socially?

I think the Paso Doble looks like a striking dance, but you're right, I don't think it's danced socially a great deal. Apparently, neither is Samba, or so I'm told.

I should explain - the ballroom instructor was correcting my misapprehension when I pointed out that BT wasn't Latin. I'd thought that it was but as you point out, it isn't. If that makes sense.

[David Bailey]

I think the Paso Doble looks like a striking dance, but you're right, I don't think it's danced socially a great deal. Apparently, neither is Samba, or so I'm told.
Actually, there's an occasional samba played at Ceroc - it'd be nice to know a bit of the dance in those occasions.

[Sparkles]

Actually, there's an occasional samba played at Ceroc - it'd be nice to know a bit of the dance in those occasions.

The samba basic is actually very simple for social dancing (though not many people do it), the timing might not be what you're used to but the steps are fairly easy to pick up.
Come and find me at a venue and I'll show you if you like :)

[David Bailey]

The samba basic is actually very simple for social dancing (though not many people do it), the timing might not be what you're used to but the steps are fairly easy to pick up.
Come and find me at a venue and I'll show you if you like :)
Sounds like a plan :)

[Spin dryer]

The samba basic is actually very simple for social dancing (though not many people do it), the timing might not be what you're used to but the steps are fairly easy to pick up.

I had my first samba lesson this evening. Great fun and, as you say, the basics are easy.

[robd]

I had my first samba lesson this evening. Great fun and, as you say, the basics are easy.

It's making it look good that's hard :sick:

[frodo]

Actually, there's an occasional samba played at Ceroc - it'd be nice to know a bit of the dance in those occasions.

Music or dance. I wonder how it could work with samba being progressive.


At a ballroom social I would expect to see the samba with about the same frequency as Ballroom Tango.

More likely to see AT than Paso .

[rubyred]

Came across this recently it could be applied to so many things in life,


Tango is a man and a woman in search of each other. It is the search for an embrace, a way to be together,in which the man feels he is a man, and the woman feels that she is a woman, without machismo. She likes to be led, he likes to lead. Disagreements may arise later, or they may not. When that moment comes, the important thing is to maintain a positive and productive dialogue, 50-50.

The music arouses and torments, the dance is the coupling of two people against the world... This is the best definition of tango as a dance.

- Juan Carlos Copes

:flower:

[Thetruth]

Just my two penn'oth - I've spoken to ballroom instructors about BT, and interestingly, they're very insistent about the fact that it shouldn't be designated as part of the Latin group of ballroom dances. AT most definitely is (from what I've seen of it) thoroughly Latin, in terms of attitude, sexiness etc. There also seems to be (and I may be wrong here) a greater scope for improvisation in AT compared with BT, but this seems to be a characteristic difference between Ballroom and other forms of dance (such as Salsa and Lindy). Most people who I have encountered who learn ballroom dances tend to learn it around routines - they develop a routine and tend to stick to it, whereas in MJ, a core element of the dance is based around improvising. Most practitioners of BT will learn a fairly prescriptive way of dancing - you make your way across the floor in a fixed series of moves (adding or subtracting elements depending on floor length) but by and large, there isn't much scope for improvisation.

Just my impression.

Unless a person has danced both BT and AT, one would find it hard for to comment, or on how it can be improvised in MJ/Ceroc. I have done AT and BT and AT is improvised whereas BT is set moves (a routine designed by a coach) and rigid and the body shaping of BT is not advisable in MJ/Ceroc. AT is much more adaptable. My dance partner and I often switch between AT, Cha, Salsa and MJ at MJ dance parties. AT is so seductive and teasing in a way. The lead plays (or drives) the follow around the dancefloor and can be freestyled moves as opposed to choreographed moves. Much like MJ, where there are many named moves, AT is the same.

[Thetruth]

I had my first samba lesson this evening. Great fun and, as you say, the basics are easy.

The basics are easy!!! Lucky you!!! I found samba walks were like a man deciding to walk like a woman..................or samba rolls were technically like nothing I had learnt in MJ/Ceroc. Now, after much practice and muscle memory they are easy and I am comfortable with the look too! Latin American in a social class is easy. Try a private lesson and see how it is done in competition which is so much harder than social dance classes. It is a massive difference.