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TA Guy
3rd-June-2007, 10:50 AM
Which do you use/prefer ? Why ?

I kinda use both, I suspect most will fall into that category. Some moves lend themselves to a slot path, some moves lend themselves to rotating. I don't like to limit to one or the other as, IMO, as far as MJ goes, it degrades the dance.

I always assume MJ was not slotted for the simple reason that the inventor was definitely a rotator. As were his peers. On the other hand, that would mean the bouncy hand style is the way to go!!! The fact that teaching is done in a slot is a red herring since it's been known since the dawn of time that the reason for that was logistical. So although MJ has traditionally been a rotated dance, the rising popularity of WCS seemed to have increased the amount of slotted MJ dancing. But is that a good enough reason ? Or are there other reasons ?

TA Guy
3rd-June-2007, 11:01 AM
Ohhhh bu**er!
I did a search on 'rotating' amd 'slot' in thread titles and came up with naught. Turns out there is a massive thread that exists on this. Oh well.

Mary
3rd-June-2007, 12:22 PM
MJ has it's roots in Lindy which is a rotational dance. The increasing influence of WCS gives rise to the slotted style, which was developed as a result of being able to orientate towards the camera when it was used in Hollywood (so I understand).

I used to prefer the rotating style but I now prefer the slotted style - it looks cleaner and more dynamic. Don't forget there are no rules on how wide the slot should be.:wink:

I have found that beginner ladies prefer the slotted style in freestyle as it helps them to orientate themselves as they have to do a lot of spinning.

M

Andy McGregor
3rd-June-2007, 02:40 PM
IMHO, there are moves that are slotted and there are moves where the partners walk around each other in circular moves. In my opinion, most of the real circular moves are danced with the partners quite close together so don't take up much space. Most of the slotted moves are danced in an open hand-hold with the partners further apart. To dance slotted moves in a circular fashion takes up much more space on the dance floor. This is why I think that the dancers who dance slotted moves in a circular fashion should be shot, at the very least castrated: they are selfish as they take up about 3 times as much space on the dance floor as a person who knows the difference between a slotted and circular move. Plus, dancing slotted moves in a circular fashion is so messy and imprecise, you have little idea where you're leading your partner resulting in an increase in collisions and injuries.

So, why are these selfish and dangerous dancers getting their slotted and circular moves confused? They are not really to blame, they are badly served by their teachers. It's probably their teachers who should be shot or castrated, the bad dancers themselves deserve our sympathy - although a Tazer shot once in a while would help speed their re-education :devil:

TA Guy
3rd-June-2007, 04:17 PM
IMHO, there are moves that are slotted and there are moves where the partners walk around each other in circular moves. In my opinion, most of the real circular moves are danced with the partners quite close together so don't take up much space. Most of the slotted moves are danced in an open hand-hold with the partners further apart. To dance slotted moves in a circular fashion takes up much more space on the dance floor.

I'd never thought of that :)
Trying to think of an open circular move and can't. Nearest I can come to is some kind of one handed walkaround, but even that's not really fully extended.

TA Guy
3rd-June-2007, 04:28 PM
MJ has it's roots in Lindy which is a rotational dance. The increasing influence of WCS gives rise to the slotted style, which was developed as a result of being able to orientate towards the camera when it was used in Hollywood (so I understand).

I used to prefer the rotating style but I now prefer the slotted style - it looks cleaner and more dynamic. Don't forget there are no rules on how wide the slot should be.:wink:

I have found that beginner ladies prefer the slotted style in freestyle as it helps them to orientate themselves as they have to do a lot of spinning.

M

Agree with the 'cleaner' comment. Or 'neater' as I prefer to say :)

Not sure I agree with the 'dynamic' comment. Lindy and MJ can both be pretty dynamic. WCS always strikes me as a slightly more controlled dance. And 100% slotted MJ would have to be as well I'd presume ?

Mary
3rd-June-2007, 04:41 PM
Not sure I agree with the 'dynamic' comment. Lindy and MJ can both be pretty dynamic. WCS always strikes me as a slightly more controlled dance. And 100% slotted MJ would have to be as well I'd presume ?

I was thinking that, for example, a simple travelling return. If the lady travels the full length of the slot in a straight line it looks far more dynamic than if she has to go around the man, or she doesn't stay on the slot, and goes off to one side.

M

Andy McGregor
3rd-June-2007, 05:05 PM
I was thinking that, for example, a simple travelling return. If the lady travels the full length of the slot in a straight line it looks far more dynamic than if she has to go around the man, or she doesn't stay on the slot, and goes off to one side.

MMary is, IMHO, totally correct. The travelling return is the move I use to demonstrate the slottedness of most open hand-hold MJ moves. I tell the guys they should consider themselves as the matador and the lady the bull "with very sharp horns". They "matador" must move completely out of the way of the "charging bull". They should not expect the bull to change course because they are standing in the way.

The other example I use (if they get my dose wrong at the nursing home :wink: ) is the narrow path in the woods. This narrow path doesn't have room for people to pass unless they both turn sideways and give way 50% each. But this isn't what you do in MJ. The guy needs to step into the brambles and stinging nettles to let the lady pass on the path as if he wasn't there - the guy then steps back onto the path and calls the lady back...

paul stevo
3rd-June-2007, 05:19 PM
We never teacher a travelling return, as we think it`s the biggest reason for people not returning on the spot. It seems in freestyle people don`t do either a return or a travelling return...they do a mixture of the 2 with the follower ending up side on to the leader.

TA Guy
3rd-June-2007, 05:23 PM
I was thinking that, for example, a simple travelling return. If the lady travels the full length of the slot in a straight line it looks far more dynamic than if she has to go around the man, or she doesn't stay on the slot, and goes off to one side.

M


Mary is, IMHO, totally correct. The travelling return is the move I use to demonstrate the slottedness of most open hand-hold MJ moves. I tell the guys they should consider themselves as the matador and the lady the bull "with very sharp horns". They "matador" must move completely out of the way of the "charging bull". They should not expect the bull to change course because they are standing in the way.


OK, maybe I dance more in a slot than I realized, but I always assumed this was good MJ practise anyway. I always get out of the way. A non-spinning example is the octopus. Good leads always just step slightly out of the ladies way so she has a clear path. Same with travelling return, I do a fair few of those and, yup, you got it :) I get out of the way.
I know it's more important for WCS where the dance rules dictate you stay in the slot, but I've always assumed that was just good MJ practise anyway.

I've even heard that taught!!! :)

Andy McGregor
3rd-June-2007, 05:29 PM
We never teacher a travelling return, as we think it`s the biggest reason for people not returning on the spot. It seems in freestyle people don`t do either a return or a travelling return...they do a mixture of the 2 with the follower ending up side on to the leader.OMG!!

The received wisdom is that a return on the spot is a beginners thing. I occasionally incorporate it into intermediate routines as a device for helping the lady find her feet after something quick or with many changes in direction. However, the best advice you can give somebody for improving their dancing is to take out most of the returns on the spot. So, I agree with Paul that the travelling return is a big reason for not returning on the spot. However, I totally disagree that this is the reason for not teaching the travelling return :confused: IMHO the travelling return is a great move which enables to to seamlessly collect the lady's free hand and is a basic building block of many MJ moves.

spindr
3rd-June-2007, 09:22 PM
The received wisdom is that a return on the spot is a beginners thing.
Nope, the received wisdom is that a turn (return) on the spot is a key facet of dancing at all levels. Beginners are more likely than not to wander off the spot, when turning or spinning -- hopefully, intermediate dancers won't :)

SpinDr

DJ Andy
3rd-June-2007, 11:11 PM
Nope, the received wisdom is that a turn (return) on the spot is a key facet of dancing at all levels. Beginners are more likely than not to wander off the spot, when turning or spinning -- hopefully, intermediate dancers won't :)

SpinDr

There are plenty of intermediate and above dancers who have a bad habit of wandering off towards 90 degrees clockwise of me when I spin them.:(
At least I think it's a bad habit and not my bad lead!:whistle:

spindr
3rd-June-2007, 11:42 PM
There are plenty of intermediate and above dancers who have a bad habit of wandering off towards 90 degrees clockwise of me when I spin them.:(
At least I think it's a bad habit and not my bad lead!:whistle:
Well, I'm told that followers should finish their turn/spin so that they face the leader -- or until the leader stops the turn/spin.

So, I guess it's not you :)

SpinDr

Gadget
3rd-June-2007, 11:48 PM
Nope, the received wisdom is that a turn (return) on the spot is a key facet of dancing at all levels. Beginners are more likely than not to wander off the spot, when turning or spinning -- hopefully, intermediate dancers won't :)
:yeah:
That's what causes the majority of 'slotted' moves to turn into rotational moves: the followers traveling on the returns, turns and spins. It is possable for the lead to work out how much they do this and compensate to keep them in that slot, but normally it's too much hard work :whistle:

All moves (with only a couple of exceptions) are taught in a slot. The lack of precision in leading/following makes 180º and 360º turns off by varying degrees, then one/both partners end up adjusting the virtual slot so that the new orientation of their partner dicates the new direction the 'slot' runs.
Being able to actually do this is one of the key things that moves a dancer away from "beginner" status; they are beginning to take an interest in their parnter and move with them.
When dancers start being precise enough to keep to the 180º/360º and adjust to keep their partner within a slot on these lines, then they move away from the "intermediate" status.

Personally I try and dance in 90º segments... or various paths weaving through dancers... or close enough that the term "slot" has no meaning. :devil:

Andy McGregor
4th-June-2007, 12:18 AM
Nope, the received wisdom is that a turn (return) on the spot is a key facet of dancing at all levels. Beginners are more likely than not to wander off the spot, when turning or spinning -- hopefully, intermediate dancers won't :)

SpinDrIn the world of dance that I inhabit we've all been told that a great way to progress is to cut out most of the turns and returns on the spot, especially if we're doing competitions. Once you've tried this you will find that your dancing flows much better and looks better too - if that bothers you.

NZ Monkey
4th-June-2007, 04:59 AM
I'm definitely a fan of the slotted style myself and I'm having a hard time thinking of a move that requires rotation permanently off the original slot. You can both leave the slot during a rotating part of a move but I prefer finishing back in the same slot. Like Mary, I think a slotted style looks and feels more dynamic.

The biggest reason I've found for the dance to start rotating is the follower stepping forward immediately after going back. If I haven't led anything yet then I'm in her way at this point and she steps to my right automatically. Sometimes if I have led something and am out of her way she will step to the right of where I was anyway. It's just simple anticipation that does it and it's understandable when 98% of the guys they dance with will pull their partner back into something immediately after every move, and never get out of their partners way to do it.

Don't worry Mary - you don't anticipate :na:

I know a slotted style is prefered by most if not all of the teachers here in Auckland but it's rarely actually mentioned by them in classes so the student uptake on it is limited. I *think* CMJ Australia teach a slotted style explicitly from day one so it'd be interesting to hear what one of their dances has to say on the rotation issue.....

Groovemeister
4th-June-2007, 09:17 AM
Your obviously discussing the merits of "dancing" in the slot or rotating.

I come from a different way of thinking as I change my style depending on
1) The music style
2) If I just want to dance rather than think about what I am doing.
3) The speed of the music
4) The partner

Also add into this the types of moves I fancy doing. As Andy has said there are some MJ moves that just don't lend themeselves to slotted dancing. If I want to incorporate them I change and rotate.

spindr
4th-June-2007, 10:56 AM
In the world of dance that I inhabit we've all been told that a great way to progress is to cut out most of the turns and returns on the spot, especially if we're doing competitions. Once you've tried this you will find that your dancing flows much better and looks better too - if that bothers you.
I think you are mixing up a number of different concepts :)

Rotations on the spot (not necessarily pirouettes per se) are a key point of many dances including ballroom, latin, tango, salsa, etc., etc. Learning to maintain a strong (shared) axis of rotation is a really useful skill.

There's a great deal of precision in dancing a turn/spin on the spot. Certainly, there's twice as much rotation in a regular turn/spin than in a travelling version. Obviously, there's more apparent motion in a travelling version and certainly an order of magnitude more optical flow (if you're at right angles to an audience) -- but then I don't tend to dance for one :) I don't know how/what judges mark -- maybe it's precision, maybe technique, maybe just the amount you move?

I think that neglecting basic spinning technique will adversely affect your dancing -- you'll be likely to fall out of the spin. This means that if you are dancing a slotted style, then you've just caused the slot to move -- which isn't normally the done thing. I think you'll find that your slotted dancing style will improve if you concentrate on the basics -- if that bothers you :devil:

SpinDr

Mary
4th-June-2007, 11:09 AM
There are moves in both MJ and WCS that 'rotate' but still using the slot - the follower still starts and ends up at the end of the slot.

It is very commom for ladies to wander when they are spinning - quite a lot are not taught how to avoid this, or are just simply not aware that they are doing it. In the Ceroc workshops it is often very apparent that quite a few guys can't keep themselves in a straight line, let alone lead their ladies in a straight line - the concept seems completely alien even though a move taught specifically leads the lady from one end of a slot to the other. Sadly this often happens in an intermediate workshop, so all they want to do is learn moves, not leading a lady in a straight line :rolleyes: and it's too late to unlearn bad habits. They then have difficulty grasping a lot new moves as they have no concept of orientation. Hey ho.

Huge amounts of :worthy: :worthy: :respect: to Simon & Nicole who manage to cram a lot of good basic technique in their beginner workshops (I was very dubious the first time I saw it but was amazed at the results), and a fair amount in the regular beginner classes, and quite a lot of it seems to stick. I'm sure there are other Ceroc teachers out there who try and do the same but it seems the exception rather than the norm.

Don't get me wrong - I am not a total technique tart (TTT), because I do approve of the Ceroc model of simplifying MJ and making it accessible to just about everyone. I love watching a regular Ceroc night and seeing so many smiling faces (except when they all start crashing into each other :devil: )

M

Andy McGregor
4th-June-2007, 11:21 AM
I think that neglecting basic spinning technique will adversely affect your dancing -- you'll be likely to fall out of the spin. This means that if you are dancing a slotted style, then you've just caused the slot to move -- which isn't normally the done thing. I think you'll find that your slotted dancing style will improve if you concentrate on the basics -- if that bothers you :devil:

SpinDrI agree with this. Spinning is a very different skill from being returned on the spot and requires much more practice. My objection to returns on the spot is that they are done far too often. It's a bit like overpunctuating a letter or saying "you know" or "um" in every sentence. Besides, I don't think that overdoing turns and returns on the spot is relevant to the debate about slotted moves or circular moves.

What I think is that there are some moves which are definitely slotted and there are some moves which are circular. What is see on many dance floors is slotted moves done with the lady rotating around the guy. Maybe this is a rotating slot, however, when I see it the guy is usually making no effort to step out of the lady's way. The lady is being diverted into dancing in a circle around the guy because the guy is standing in her slot, oblivious to the fact he's in the way. The result is that the guy stands in the middle of a circle, with the lady popping out to the curcumference in many different directions. I suppose this is neither circular or slotted, it's untidy. And, untidy dancing is what I don't like to see.

Mean Jean
4th-June-2007, 11:27 AM
One of the things that confused me when I started, was that in the lesson we all line up in rows and dance in a slot (as far as I know this is how all the Ceroc teachers also teach it).

And then as soon as we go into freestyle everybody dances round in circles??????

It was a bit different when I went to a Lindy workshop with Simon Selmon, as he taught in a circle and the slot didn't seem to matter so much.

Andy McGregor
4th-June-2007, 11:53 AM
It was a bit different when I went to a Lindy workshop with Simon Selmon, as he taught in a circle and the slot didn't seem to matter so much.Of course Lindy Hop is a different dance with its own rules. Those rules are irrelevant to Modern Jive.

spindr
4th-June-2007, 11:56 AM
One of the things that confused me when I started, was that in the lesson we all line up in rows and dance in a slot (as far as I know this is how all the Ceroc teachers also teach it).

And then as soon as we go into freestyle everybody dances round in circles??????
If the teacher doens't explain that the leader should get out of the follower's way (off of the slot / off of the follower's line) -- then they aren't teaching a slotted style.

When it comes to freestyle the leaders will do what they've been taught and won't get out of the follower's way -- and you'll start to circle -- not that there's anything wrong with that :)

SpinDr

TA Guy
4th-June-2007, 11:58 AM
There are moves in both MJ and WCS that 'rotate' but still using the slot - the follower still starts and ends up at the end of the slot.

It is very commom for ladies to wander when they are spinning - quite a lot are not taught how to avoid this, or are just simply not aware that they are doing it. In the Ceroc workshops it is often very apparent that quite a few guys can't keep themselves in a straight line, let alone lead their ladies in a straight line - the concept seems completely alien even though a move taught specifically leads the lady from one end of a slot to the other.

Most of the time, when I dance in heavy rotation it is driven by the follower. I have tried, about two or three times, to keep a heavy rotating follower in the slot. It's very hard, and I gave up each time in pretty short order.

And to be honest, while some may think those dances may not look as good, that is not particularly important to me (I don't enter comps). Can't say they feel any worse or anything. I am quite happy dancing in rotation, a slot is not a requirement of a MJ dance feeling good or being enjoyed for me :)

I've certainly no predisposed idealism about having to dance MJ in a slot.

Unlike WCS.
That's the difference really. With a one handed walkaround, it is not wrong in MJ (as far as I know) to exit the rotation after three quarters of a turn and end up at 90 degrees to the original slot.... and to repeat that with whatever moves you want as many times as you want. Whereas in WCS, you are breaking the rules of the dance.

Viva la difference.

Andy McGregor
4th-June-2007, 01:18 PM
When it comes to freestyle the leaders will do what they've been taught and won't get out of the follower's way -- and you'll start to circle -- not that there's anything wrong with that :)

SpinDrApart from the space it takes up.

IMHO the dance that is circular because the guy gets in the lady's way is too random to be safe. The guy hasn't really got much control over where the lady goes when she avoids him. The leader is in charge and he's to blame if it all goes wrong. But he's not really in control over which part of the circumference the lady will aim for when she bounces off him like a badly aimed cue ball.

The only option if you'd like to lead the lady is to know where you're leading her to. If you're just getting in her way but leading her past you have only got partial control and this will increase the chances of a collision on a social dance floor. I think you should have a clear idea of where your partner is going to end up and using a slot for a passing or cross-body lead is the solution, IMHO.

On a different subject (touched upon by TA Guy), I see no reason why you can't rotate your slot ( :eek: ). If you have a slot going East-West and somebody gets in the way you can easily rotate your slot through ninety degrees to have it going North-South. It's still a slot. And it doesn't have to be ninety degrees. You could see it as the spokes on a bicycle wheel, you can send them up and down the spokes, spinning the wheel every once in a while to send them down a different spoke. When you do a circular move you forget all about the spokes, and then you re-establish the slot for the next slotted move and send them back down your chosen spoke. What could be simpler? :confused:

Martin
4th-June-2007, 07:19 PM
I *think* CMJ Australia teach a slotted style explicitly from day one so it'd be interesting to hear what one of their dances has to say on the rotation issue.....

Not sure on CMJ in the last 2 years, but I have frequented the other Sydney based and Australia based companies.

Lessons still the same, some rotation, some slot. As it always has been.

With the influence of WCS on the more advanced dancers, I have been dancing more "slotted" just to bring a smile to the face of the girlies who think I am doing WCS (whereas I am just allowing them to do thier thing) - just the same as I would with a Tango girl, push me chest out, create a frame and have attitude... off she goes... :drool:

MartinHarper
4th-June-2007, 07:23 PM
What do we mean by "slotted"?

Some folks mean always starting and finishing each move with a certain orientation. If I include rotating moves in my dance, such as a Cleaver Walk-around, then it's kinda arbitrary to constrain those moves to always finish in a certain orientation, unless the audience is all in the same place. Sure, it can be done, but it's kinda hard work, for little benefit.

On the other hand, change-of-places type moves: travelling return, octopus, etc, I think look aesthetically neater if the dancers keep the same orientation, with the follower moving in a straight line. To achieve this, the leader has to move a bit, as Andy has eloquently described.

----

The other thing folks might mean by "slotted dancing" is a WCS-style of dancing whereby, at a beginner level:

1. Leaders get off the slot when the follower is passing them.
2. Leaders stay in the slot when the follower is not passing them.
3. Followers stay in the slot all the time.

This is lead/follow-incompatible with regular Modern Jive, and I don't know anyone who teaches Modern Jive in this style.


There are moves in both MJ and WCS that 'rotate' but still using the slot - the follower still starts and ends up at the end of the slot.

What would be a good example of this kind of WCS move?

Andy McGregor
4th-June-2007, 08:36 PM
To achieve this, the leader has to move a bit, as Andy has eloquently described.Go on, face your fear. You fancy me, don't fight it :wink:

NZ Monkey
4th-June-2007, 09:56 PM
----

The other thing folks might mean by "slotted dancing" is a WCS-style of dancing whereby, at a beginner level:

1. Leaders get off the slot when the follower is passing them.
2. Leaders stay in the slot when the follower is not passing them.
3. Followers stay in the slot all the time.

This is lead/follow-incompatible with regular Modern Jive, and I don't know anyone who teaches Modern Jive in this style.Apart from the last line that's pretty much my take on it. I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that it's incompatible with MJ though. Plenty of people manage it regularly, as long as they're leading passes in a slot and the follower isn't anticipating I don't see any conflict at all.

The kind of connection you have in WCS and MJ is very different if that's what you mean, but I'm not sure it is.





What would be a good example of this kind of WCS move?The one I'm thinking of that I know I can find in a video clip is a type of throwout at around 2:12 of YouTube - Jordan Frisbee & Tatiana Mollman in Paris 2oo6 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2CA9PAIMRg) . I don't know if this was the kind of thing Mary was thinking of but it's a good example of what I was talking about earlier.

MartinHarper
4th-June-2007, 10:18 PM
I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that it's incompatible with MJ though.

Suppose I'm leading regular MJ, and my partner is following slotted MJ. As soon as I attempt to lead her off-slot, she either has to ignore my lead, or she has to ignore rule three. Same goes if I lead her a rotational move such as that Cleaver Walk-around I talked about.

There's incompatibility the other way round too.


The one I'm thinking of that I know I can find in a video clip is a type of throwout at around 2:12.

Thanks.
I'd consider that an example of the rule that no rules apply to great dancers.

purplehyacinth
4th-June-2007, 11:30 PM
Where's the option on this poll for "whatever the leader leads - be it slot or rotation"?

:flower:

Martin
5th-June-2007, 11:11 AM
Where's the option on this poll for "whatever the leader leads - be it slot or rotation"?

:flower:

he he I no longer even try to lead advanced dancers --- I just make suggestions :D

David Bailey
5th-June-2007, 12:54 PM
Depends on the music.

MartinHarper
5th-June-2007, 03:32 PM
Depends on the music.

Could you expand on that?

David Bailey
5th-June-2007, 05:33 PM
Could you expand on that?
Yes :na:

David Bailey
5th-June-2007, 05:37 PM
Could you expand on that?
Oh, OK then.

To me, it seems that some music is more naturally slotted than others - for example, Will Young's "I won't dance" is a lovely slot-music track, with lots of opportunities for travelling returns and things.

Whereas something like Bodyrocker's "I like the way you move" is where I do a lot of walkarounds, wiggling and shimmying as I go, because there aren't so many opportunities to do "moves" to fit with the music that way.

ducasi
5th-June-2007, 07:59 PM
I mainly dance "slotted", and not from WCS influence, though perhaps from doing workshops by Amir and Marc Forster. Both of them highlight slotted dancing, though Amir also teaches an "interesting" rotational octopus just to show it's possible. ;)

I do some walk-around moves which don't always end back up in the same slot as before... Like DJ, I also find that some music wants more rotational stuff, but they'll be done within the context of a mainly slotted dance.

As for the WCS slot vs. MJ slot thing... Yes, it's clear to be that they are actually different (though I'd never thought about it before now.) I think this begins to explain (to me) the different style of lead required in WCS, where you only lead when you want a change of direction from the follower, and where turns and spins are often double-prep'ed.

jockey
5th-June-2007, 09:56 PM
I love to slot.
Maybe it was all those Nigel and Nina classes; maybe it all started with those walks that Graham Leclerc taught in Brighton; but I love the structure on the one hand and, oddly you may think to yourself, the freedom to anchor and "let play", on the other.
Of course there is the occasional pretzel when music demands but slotting does it for me. I think it helps with drops and seducers also because the lady will know more precisely where she is going down and in what direction (parallel with the slot, naturellement).
And what with WCS looming one is well placed to pick it up (it says here..).

jockey
5th-June-2007, 10:09 PM
Another useful effect of a slotted style is to pin down the geometry of MJ. Listening to a comment earlier on in the thread I'm reminded of how annoying and disruptive it reaaly is to have the follower popping out of the move at whatever angle, seemingly unmindful of the fact that if she comes out at SE instead of South, say, the lead often has to change the next move or do a steadying return to put the geometry right.
With slotted dancing you get better geometry, (or is it 'geography').
I find myself agreeing with Andy (gulp) - its dead easy to turn the slot thro 90 degrees to avoid trouble.

Martin
5th-June-2007, 10:12 PM
Oh, OK then.

To me, it seems that some music is more naturally slotted than others - for example, Will Young's "I won't dance" is a lovely slot-music track, with lots of opportunities for travelling returns and things.

Whereas something like Bodyrocker's "I like the way you move" is where I do a lot of walkarounds, wiggling and shimmying as I go, because there aren't so many opportunities to do "moves" to fit with the music that way.

Very good point :yeah:

Gadget
6th-June-2007, 01:22 PM
What do we mean by "slotted"?
I like the descriptions, but in both cases I think that it is the follower's orientation throughout the move that defines it as slotted or rotational. The lead can change this orientation, but their own should match, mirror or be at 90º to their partners to look crisp and controled.
A follower turning on the spot is keeping to a slotted orientation. A follower stepping into a turn and stepping out in the same direction is keeping to the slotted orientation. If the follower steps out at a different angle then the angle of the 'slot' has now changed; The lead can either quickly change their own orientation to match(/mirror/perpendicular) their partners or lead them back to the origional orientation they were on before they changed the angle.
The first option is what tends to "degenerate" the taught 'slot' of MJ into a more amorphous rotational shape.

A follower walking arround the lead makes a move rotational - but the start and exit of the rotational portion should still adhear to the same 'slotted' principle as any other move - the follower has transfered the 'slot' to the lead (who should now maintain their own orientation until the follower's orientation during the rotation suits them - ie 90º segments.)
Again, it's when the follower comes out of the rotation (or is taken out of the rotation) at a different angle that the move looses structure and becomes the same amorphous shape

{I like that word :D}

When leading on a dance floor in an ever-changing space, one of the best floorcraft skills in avoiding people and utilising the space is purposefully leading your partner out of a rotational move in the direction of a gap or forcing the rotation of a slot into an opening.
To me, this makes MJ a "slotted" dance form that is danced socially without the slot. :D

NZ Monkey
6th-June-2007, 09:19 PM
When leading on a dance floor in an ever-changing space, one of the best floorcraft skills in avoiding people and utilising the space is purposefully leading your partner out of a rotational move in the direction of a gap or forcing the rotation of a slot into an opening.
To me, this makes MJ a "slotted" dance form that is danced socially without the slot. :D:yeah:

To be entirely fair I find that in practice I will usually end up leading my partner to rotate off the slot just because I need to in order to avoid collisions with other couples who have drifted into our slot themselves. It takes surprisingly few couples who are not sticking to a slot to disrupt the rest of the floor in only a few songs.

I think that's probably the best argument for MJ to *not* be a slotted dance. It's too hard to ingrain the rules in a dance that's supposed to be easy. You can even use the excuse that it improves your floorcraft at the same time, so not only is it easier but it's a more valuble learning experience :devil: :whistle:

ads
7th-June-2007, 05:48 AM
I believe that a follower who dances in the slot follows much better than one who rotates. I can lead rotational moves and on completion I know exactly where the lady will finish where I find rotational dancers often do it without knowing and often backlead.

Andy McGregor
7th-June-2007, 07:59 AM
:yeah:

To be entirely fair I find that in practice I will usually end up leading my partner to rotate off the slot just because I need to in order to avoid collisions with other couples who have drifted into our slot themselves. It takes surprisingly few couples who are not sticking to a slot to disrupt the rest of the floor in only a few songs.
IMHO this is an example of adjusting the orientation of the slot to fit the available space. It's not really one partner walking around the other in a circular fashion. In fact, a crowded dance floor makes this walking around rather difficult as you will encounter obstacles on a regular basis and have to keep adjusting your circle. It strikes me that an adjustable orientation slot is much better suited to a busy floor than a wonky circle.

StokeBloke
8th-June-2007, 03:38 AM
It is my understanding that a slot is an imaginary line that the follow travels along, and that this line can move during the dance if the lead decides to move it. It's not fixed. There seems to be a notion that once you have marked out that imaginary slot, it's fixed for the whole dance.... this isn't the case, is it?

Just asking for some clarification here. New. Confused.

Marc Forster
8th-June-2007, 05:35 AM
It is my understanding that a slot is an imaginary line that the follow travels along, and that this line can move during the dance if the lead decides to move it. It's not fixed. There seems to be a notion that once you have marked out that imaginary slot, it's fixed for the whole dance.... this isn't the case, is it?

Just asking for some clarification here. New. Confused.

In Modern Jive terms, the way I see it that the leader sets his own individual rules for the follower to interpret. This in my mind is what makes Modern Jive a high risk dance. By the leader imposing a fixed rule within a variable dance style, this will add an element of structure.

To shorten the odds in my favour, I will tend to orientate myself within the room so that the line of dance for the lady travels either North to South or East to West. In a square room, the stage represents North. The theory is the leader will aim to keep his back to the wall during the points of separation while being in a position to keep the follower close to him.

I find this gives me the a contingency plan when things go haywire. I know where I should be facing and how to contain my partners frame within an area I am comfortable with. To be honest, the majority of the time, I'm in a closed hold. What can go wrong?

It's suprising how many followers 'get it' without the leader having to spell it out for them. Once they pick up on that basic style, I find complicated looking moves easy to lead as I know which way I should be facing at which point of the intended move. If the lady happens to do something unpredictable, I'm happy to have danced through a new variation. There is no right or wrong. The best bit is I am balanced within my framework and can easily recover from potential danger and regain control of the dance, regardless of the North to South or East to West axis we may eventually extend upon.

Andy McGregor
8th-June-2007, 10:33 AM
It is my understanding that a slot is an imaginary line that the follow travels along, and that this line can move during the dance if the lead decides to move it. It's not fixed. There seems to be a notion that once you have marked out that imaginary slot, it's fixed for the whole dance.... this isn't the case, is it?

Just asking for some clarification here. New. Confused.

I think the answer below, given earlier in the thread makes it clear that you can orient your slot where you like. IMHO the slot is all about getting out of the followers way in cross-body leads. But you can easily choose where you exit a circular move to orient your slot differently.


On a different subject (touched upon by TA Guy), I see no reason why you can't rotate your slot ( :eek: ). If you have a slot going East-West and somebody gets in the way you can easily rotate your slot through ninety degrees to have it going North-South. It's still a slot. And it doesn't have to be ninety degrees. You could see it as the spokes on a bicycle wheel, you can send them up and down the spokes, spinning the wheel every once in a while to send them down a different spoke. When you do a circular move you forget all about the spokes, and then you re-establish the slot for the next slotted move and send them back down your chosen spoke. What could be simpler? :confused:

Steven666
18th-October-2007, 10:59 AM
Personally I have got so used to circular dancing that I find it difficult to lead followers that stay on the narrow path. Yet I do know some great moves that only work on a slot bases which I can invariable never use.

Circular dancing simply exists as it feels more nateral to not worry about positioning or rotation when exiting moves together with the ability of a follower (or even the lead) to turn on a postage stamp. Most simply can't do it and take the easier lazier route when returning. To be honested I sometime take that same route when following but I try to stay in one place when I'm thinking about it.

I think you should do what ever feels more natural for you. For most people that is circular. Unless you in a competition of course then the slot is the only was to go.

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2007, 12:41 PM
Personally I have got so used to circular dancing that I find it difficult to lead followers that stay on the narrow path. Yet I do know some great moves that only work on a slot bases which I can invariable never use.

Circular dancing simply exists as it feels more nateral to not worry about positioning or rotation when exiting moves together with the ability of a follower (or even the lead) to turn on a postage stamp. Most simply can't do it and take the easier lazier route when returning. To be honested I sometime take that same route when following but I try to stay in one place when I'm thinking about it.

I think you should do what ever feels more natural for you. For most people that is circular. Unless you in a competition of course then the slot is the only was to go.This post shows some confusion between rotational moves and another kind of dancing. When a move is rotational the partners are walking around each other or one is walking around the other: you are walking in circles or rotating about a point. That point may or may not contain your partner. When I'm not dancing slotted moves I often dance rotating moves of this format.

The "another kind of dancing" is where the guys stays as the centre of the ladies universe and leads her past him at different, and often uncontrolled or random angles. This creates a circular footprint and takes up a lot of room, but I wouldn't say it was rotational. The lady passes the guy on her journey to the circumference of their dance footprint and then comes back in to be sent out to another random place on the circumference. The guy might move his feet once in a while, but it's only to relocate the train-crash of a dance that he is "leading". Why do I say "train-crash"? Because this is the dance style that creates dance-floor collisions :mad:

Steven666
18th-October-2007, 12:48 PM
This post shows some confusion between rotational moves and another kind of dancing. When a move is rotational the partners are walking around each other or one is walking around the other: you are walking in circles or rotating about a point. That point may or may not contain your partner. When I'm not dancing slotted moves I often dance rotating moves of this format.

The "another kind of dancing" is where the guys stays as the centre of the ladies universe and leads her past him at different, and often uncontrolled or random angles. This creates a circular footprint and takes up a lot of room, but I wouldn't say it was rotational. The lady passes the guy on her journey to the circumference of their dance footprint and then comes back in to be sent out to another random place on the circumference. The guy might move his feet once in a while, but it's only to relocate the train-crash of a dance that he is "leading". Why do I say "train-crash"? Because this is the dance style that creates dance-floor collisions :mad:

Well that goes completely against what I though this thread was about. I have to disagree slightly.

Granted some leads just don't move out of the way so the follower just moves around them but in a straight line therefore travelling at an angle to the slot but the circular motion I was refering to can be down as to whether the follower can return on the spot. If so then the dance will be more slotted.

If the follower just walks the return then they tend to travel (usually to the leads right) so the lead turns to adjust for this thus changing the position of the slot. But when this happens on every move you just end up dancing in circles as it were.

The other factor is over rotation by the follower on spins and returns where the lead has to adjust their position so to end up square on.

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2007, 01:17 PM
Well that goes completely against what I thought this thread was about. I have to disagree slightly.I think that many people are talking about different things when they say "rotational". And that is why some of the disagreement on this thread is so confusing.



Granted some leads just don't move out of the way so the follower just moves around them but in a straight line therefore travelling at an angle to the slot but the circular motion I was refering to can be down as to whether the follower can return on the spot. If so then the dance will be more slotted.This doesn't sound like a rotational dance, apart from returns I can't see where there is any rotation. The footprint of the couple may be circular, but the dancers never circle anything or rotate about anything. The lady just dances past the guy at a variable angle - because the guy hasn't got out of her way! Therefore, it's not a slotted dance where the slot changes it's orientation on every cross-body lead, it's just bad dance technique to lead the lady in a way that makes her have to avoid walking into her lead. This bit is the root of the problem "Granted some leads just don't move out of the way". We should not "grant" them permission to dance like this, it's just another way of dancing badly.

geoff332
18th-October-2007, 01:38 PM
My thoughts are pretty straight forward - in a sense. Some Ceroc moves work much better when danced slotted. Some work much better when danced rotationally. Some - probably most - can be danced either way just as effectively. A few have elements of both thrown in.

A couple of other random thoughts come to mind.
In class, the slotted structure more often than not involve dancers rotating into their slot at the end of each dance phrase. The line of dance itself shifts all over the place. That is not slotted dancing.
When slotted dancing is done well the lead is often on the follow's line, getting out of the way as required. This usually results in closer dancing. I find a lot of dancers end up dancing around one another - producing a rotational style.
Slotted dancing typically requires good footwork. In a simple example, if I'm leading someone through my right hand side, I really have to step back on my right foot or things get messy.
Another variant on footwork: slotted dancing requires a good appreciation of the difference between different types of spins, turns, and steps with a change of direction. Doing the appropriate thing and doing it without losing the line of dance is actually quite hard.
It is more than possible to dance a rotational style and take up relatively little room on the dance floor. Similarly, one can dance slotted and still be a rude and inconsiderate dancer. I suspect the basic issue here is not the dancing style, but the dancer.Where I think I've got my head to is, if you dance very well, either slotted or rotational dancing looks good, feels good and works well. I believe the best dancers can do either well and are capable of mixing them up. Both forms of dancing have a lot of technical bits and pieces you have to get right to make them look good. For those of us who aren't perfect, it's likely that the weaknesses in our dancing will find one or other approach better suited to our particular strengths.

Gadget
18th-October-2007, 01:42 PM
The "another kind of dancing" is where the guys stays as the centre of the ladies universe and leads her past him at different, and often uncontrolled or random angles. This creates a circular footprint and takes up a lot of room, but I wouldn't say it was rotational. The lady passes the guy on her journey to the circumference of their dance footprint and then comes back in to be sent out to another random place on the circumference. The guy might move his feet once in a while, but it's only to relocate the train-crash of a dance that he is "leading". Why do I say "train-crash"? Because this is the dance style that creates dance-floor collisions :mad:

:confused: Weren't you just advocating the "Spoked" form of dancing? rotating the slot to whatever angle? What's the difference? :whistle:

Steven666
18th-October-2007, 01:44 PM
I think that many people are talking about different things when they say "rotational". And that is why some of the disagreement on this thread is so confusing.


This doesn't sound like a rotational dance, apart from returns I can't see where there is any rotation. The footprint of the couple may be circular, but the dancers never circle anything or rotate about anything. The lady just dances past the guy at a variable angle - because the guy hasn't got out of her way! Therefore, it's not a slotted dance where the slot changes it's orientation on every cross-body lead, it's just bad dance technique to lead the lady in a way that makes her have to avoid walking into her lead. This bit is the root of the problem "Granted some leads just don't move out of the way". We should not "grant" them permission to dance like this, it's just another way of dancing badly.

I think it boils down to what you define rotational and circular as.

For me:

Rotational - walkaround moves, rotating purposely around dance partner

Circular - Follower walking around lead therfore not ending up on the original slot that the move started on.

We are probably arguing the same cause by the looks of it! :wink:

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2007, 02:06 PM
:confused: Weren't you just advocating the "Spoked" form of dancing? rotating the slot to whatever angle? What's the difference? :whistle:The difference is that the spoked form is controlled and the guy still steps in and out of the lady's slot. In the other kind of circular dance the lady has to wander down one of those spokes as the guy is in her way.

David Bailey
18th-October-2007, 02:35 PM
When a move is rotational the partners are walking around each other or one is walking around the other: you are walking in circles or rotating about a point. That point may or may not contain your partner. When I'm not dancing slotted moves I often dance rotating moves of this format.
:yeah:

Blimey, Andy, you almost sound like a proper teacher with that post... :na:

David Bailey
18th-October-2007, 02:39 PM
IFor me:

Rotational - walkaround moves, rotating purposely around dance partner

Circular - Follower walking around lead therfore not ending up on the original slot that the move started on.
Nope, they're both rotational (or both circular) - you're just shifting the axis of rotation.

The axis can be the leader, the follower, or a mid-point in between the two.

Possibly, advanced dancers could actually modify this axis further - for example, to make the axis 1/3 of the way between the leader and follower - but I don't think we'll see that sort of level of technique in MJ in my lifetime.

David Franklin
18th-October-2007, 03:02 PM
Nope, they're both rotational (or both circular) - you're just shifting the axis of rotation.

The axis can be the leader, the follower, or a mid-point in between the two.I think you're stretching things here. Although there's a conceptual axis of rotation in the case of walkaround moves, it's a lot more dubious to say the same for any kind of 'rotating slot' scenario.

Putting it another way: in the first case, the movement itself is rotational. In the second case, it isn't. The most you can say is that a characteristic of the movement (the slot) is rotating. Which is a very different thing.

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2007, 03:11 PM
:yeah:

Blimey, Andy, you almost sound like a proper teacher with that post... :na:I've been copying people who actually know what they're talking about. Me? I'm just a copycat - but those "proper dance teachers" got it from someone rather than inventing everything they say. The ones that do make all it up for themselves are the ones who worry me the most.

On the subject of my being a "proper dance teacher", I'm actively teaching on stage or doing private lessons for between 10 and 15 hours a week and teaching about 250 people a week. Add in preparation time and freestyle practice/coaching and I'm at it for about 40 hours a week. How much more time do I have to serve to be "proper"?

Steven666
18th-October-2007, 03:28 PM
Nope, they're both rotational (or both circular) - you're just shifting the axis of rotation.

The axis can be the leader, the follower, or a mid-point in between the two.

Possibly, advanced dancers could actually modify this axis further - for example, to make the axis 1/3 of the way between the leader and follower - but I don't think we'll see that sort of level of technique in MJ in my lifetime.

Rotational and circular aren't interchangeable term here. I think this is where the confusion is. I get what your saying but in practice I don't really agree.

Similary withe the term rotational and rotating, dancing in a rotational manner is also different than dancing a purposely rotating move.

It's just not easy to explain without diagrams or demostration.

David Bailey
18th-October-2007, 04:12 PM
I've been copying people who actually know what they're talking about.
Hell, don't we all? :grin:


On the subject of my being a "proper dance teacher", I'm actively teaching on stage or doing private lessons for between 10 and 15 hours a week and teaching about 250 people a week. Add in preparation time and freestyle practice/coaching and I'm at it for about 40 hours a week. How much more time do I have to serve to be "proper"?
God know, decades probably. But that's more for the "Real teachers" thread :)

David Bailey
18th-October-2007, 04:17 PM
I think you're stretching things here. Although there's a conceptual axis of rotation in the case of walkaround moves, it's a lot more dubious to say the same for any kind of 'rotating slot' scenario.
Yes - sorry, I wasn't talking about rotating slot type dancing. Actually, I do that - following Marc's model of North-South or East-West - mainly for floorcraft reasons.

Rotational slotted dancing isn't really rotational, it's just shifting your direction of slot - either by choice, by necessity or by mistake.

I'm sticking with my description for "proper" rotational dancing, but yes, that may be less relevant to MJ than I originally thought, in that there aren't many "proper" rotational moves in the MJ syllabus.

Andy McGregor
18th-October-2007, 04:17 PM
Hell, don't we all? :grin:


God know, decades probably. But that's more for the "Real teachers" thread :)I've been going to dance class for 3 decades already - and I still don't think I'm a "real dancer". I'll be 81 in 3 more decades - let's hope I can still walk :waycool:

p.s. We have a guy of 87 who comes to our classes 2-3 nights a week, goes to ballroom twice a week looks after a flock of sheep with his sheepdog, goes to Spanish night classes, grows his own veg, makes his own wine, etc, etc - I wonder if he thinks he's "real" yet?

Rocky
18th-October-2007, 04:24 PM
I've been copying people who actually know what they're talking about. Me? I'm just a copycat - but those "proper dance teachers" got it from someone rather than inventing everything they say. The ones that do make all it up for themselves are the ones who worry me the most.

On the subject of my being a "proper dance teacher", I'm actively teaching on stage or doing private lessons for between 10 and 15 hours a week and teaching about 250 people a week. Add in preparation time and freestyle practice/coaching and I'm at it for about 40 hours a week. How much more time do I have to serve to be "proper"?

If you spent less time on the forum and devoted that time to teaching then maybe you would become a 'proper' teacher..:wink:

Rocky
18th-October-2007, 04:32 PM
p.s. We have a guy of 87 who comes to our classes 2-3 nights a week, goes to ballroom twice a week looks after a flock of sheep with his sheepdog, goes to Spanish night classes, grows his own veg, makes his own wine, etc, etc - I wonder if he thinks he's "real" yet?

So he's a swarthy looking old guy who is constantly drunk, smells of sheep, carries a courgette, can order a two beers in Spanish and has a hairy dog tied up outside.... are you sure you don't run Ceroc classes down there Andy??

David Franklin
18th-October-2007, 04:44 PM
Yes - sorry, I wasn't talking about rotating slot type dancing. Actually, I do that - following Marc's model of North-South or East-West - mainly for floorcraft reasons.I don't think that's what I mean by "rotating slot".

In the absense of diagrams, think about clock positions, with the leader in the centre. Normal dancing in a slot would start with the follow at 12, and send her to 6 (leader making space as necessary). With a rotating slot, the follow starts at 12 and gets sent to 5 (or possibly even 4). On the next move, she goes from 5 to 10. If you draw her path you'll end up with a sort of star pattern. You will also see that the line segments (the "slot") do actually rotate about the center, even though the follower herself doesn't.

A key point is that the change in direction happens for every move, and it always happens in the same direction. So it's very definitely not the same as changing the direction of the slot for floorcraft reasons.

In my experience, a rotating slot is actually the most common way of dancing Ceroc - the fact that it doesn't rely on the lead getting out of the way (i.e. moving!) is probably significant here... :whistle:

David Bailey
18th-October-2007, 07:30 PM
I don't think that's what I mean by "rotating slot".

{ snip explanation }

Ah. Sloppy dancing, in other words. Well, I can do that too :grin:

Steven666
19th-October-2007, 08:48 AM
Ah. Sloppy dancing, in other words. Well, I can do that too :grin:

I find it comfort dancing rather than sloppy dancing. I kept a look out for this yesterday.

One (newish) female lead lead the beginners routine perfectly down the slot twice through before going to freestyle. She continued to do the routine 3 or 4 more times through also staying in perfect slot. But as soon and I mean as soon as she started using other moves the original slot disappeared. Why was this? Maybe it was because she was comfortable with her own moves she used therefore the circulating was natural and not so comfortable with the routine moves so stuck to the lesson format explicity.

Apart from that I looked at other dancers and I came to one conclusion as to why this is happening and one conclusion only. It is the way the follower is returned. Many lady's were not directed to return on the spot. They are simple lead into constant travelling returns on every move except the travelling return is just not lead to cover 180 degrees. It will go from say 12 to 5, then 5 to 10 them 10 to 3 and so on, yet the move itself upto that point nearly always stayed exactly in slot.

It's all about the lead of the return as far as I'm concerned now.

David Bailey
19th-October-2007, 09:07 AM
But as soon and I mean as soon as she started using other moves the original slot disappeared. Why was this?
Sloppiness? Seriously, it's just a question of technique and practice.

Typically, it's easier for the leader not to move out of the way - and also, the follower gets used to the leader not moving out of the way, so "naturally" (or habitually) does the spoke thing. It takes effort and focus to break these habits - and leaders often have problems doing several difficult things at once.

For example, when leading Tango, I should focus on lots of areas, including:

Clear leading
Posture
Intention / projection
Footwork
Frame
etc.

On a good day, I reckon I can now get about 2 or 3 of these going at once for a short period. And until I can get to the "unconscious competence" level with these, I won't be able to achieve good technique.

Steven666
19th-October-2007, 09:24 AM
Sloppiness? Seriously, it's just a question of technique and practice.

I looked for this sloppiness but although you could call it that, it's only the returns that are being mislead. Yet it isn't always the fault of the lead. If the follower wants to walk and wander in a return as they physically are unable to turn on a spot, then is that sloppiness also?

David Bailey
19th-October-2007, 09:37 AM
If the follower wants to walk and wander in a return as they physically are unable to turn on a spot, then is that sloppiness also?
Well, yeah - "sloppy" may be a bit of a harsh term, but I'm pretty sure almost every follower can physically turn on a spot if led to do so.

Whilst it's not always the "fault" of the leader, a good enough leader can certainly compensate for any potential problems in a follower. The most obvious example that comes to mind is my recent travails with the West Manhattan.

MartinHarper
19th-October-2007, 10:12 AM
"sloppy" may be a bit of a harsh term, but I'm pretty sure almost every follower can physically turn on a spot if led to do so.

So, in this video:

YouTube - David James and Double Trouble Modern Jive SP June 07 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjOHe81i2s)

I see a number of returns from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Are they an example of this "sloppiness"?

David Bailey
19th-October-2007, 10:24 AM
So, in this video:

YouTube - David James and Double Trouble Modern Jive SP June 07 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjOHe81i2s)

I see a number of returns from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Are they an example of this "sloppiness"?
Absolutely. Do what I say not what I do. :grin:

Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by :tears:

Steven666
19th-October-2007, 10:49 AM
So, in this video:

YouTube - David James and Double Trouble Modern Jive SP June 07 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BHjOHe81i2s)

I see a number of returns from 12 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Are they an example of this "sloppiness"?

I saw them to. It mainly do to the returns. Partly the way they are lead and partly the way they are followed.

In fact I have just watched a load of related videos and haven't yet seen one dance staying in the slot.

MartinHarper
19th-October-2007, 01:00 PM
Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by :tears:

Well you could claim that you were deliberately rotating the slot, rather than being sloppy.

On the plus side, it didn't look like a "train-crash of a dance" or a "controlled form of chaos".

David Bailey
19th-October-2007, 02:03 PM
Well you could claim that you were deliberately rotating the slot, rather than being sloppy.
I could blame the follower, of course :grin:


On the plus side, it didn't look like a "train-crash of a dance" or a "controlled form of chaos".
It's not diabolical, but it's just a mooch-around lazy dance, is all - so it's not surprising it's sloppy as hell. Certainly nothing I'd want on the net... :rolleyes:

David Franklin
19th-October-2007, 08:25 PM
Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by :tears:It's a bit like shagging one lousy sheep, really...

Or in my case: You do one cabaret where you drop your wife on her head... :blush:

Looking at the clip of you, it is interesting how it's basically slotted other than the returns. It hadn't really occurred to me that one move would "cause all the damage" so to speak.

straycat
19th-October-2007, 08:32 PM
It's a bit like shagging one lousy sheep, really...

So you reckon the louse-free ones were better for your reputation? :confused:

David Franklin
19th-October-2007, 08:42 PM
So you reckon the louse-free ones were better for your reputation? :confused:Just in case you really are confused, it's the punchline to a joke:


...shaggy dog start omitted...

“See this pub?” asks John, “I built it, but they don’t call me Pubbuilder John? I’m the local doctor, I saved Barman Jim’s life once when he choked on a peanut, but they don’t call me Lifesaver John. Every year, I supply a huge Christmas tree for the village green, but the don’t call me Christmas Tree John.

“But you shag one lousy sheep…”

Andy McGregor
19th-October-2007, 10:08 PM
Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by :tears:I have to disagree. that isn't DJ's "worst dancing ever". I've seen him dance to a much lower standard. I think it was having a great partner that lifted his game :innocent: It's a shame the cameraman used wide-screen mode, it made it look like DJ is fat with very short legs :whistle:

It looks like he was expanding his dance to fill the space available. It certainly takes up plenty of room. DJ is dancing in the slot, he's just being sloppy with it. He's crossing the slot quite nicely and then not making it all the way across. This is what's causing him to dance in a Star of David pattern. Next time I'm using the urinal next to him I'll check if there's a religious significance to this pattern :devil:

I agree with Mr666 about the travelling return being the root of this sloppy style dancing. I call the travelling return "my favourite move" as an excuse for the number of times I teach it. It really is fundamental to dancing in the slot - and getting it wrong is fundamental to sloppy dancing. The main thing people get wrong with the travelling return is not getting out of the slot completely and not leading the lady/follwer straight down the slot: the other thing that's often wrong is what DJ was doing, not crossing the slot completely.

It's good of DJ to demonstrate what can go wrong. Not only is he deliberately sloppy, he's demonstrating how a bad choice of clothes can make your dancing look even worse :wink:

straycat
19th-October-2007, 11:07 PM
Just in case you really are confused, it's the punchline to a joke:

I know - I was just being mean :innocent:
(plus I think it's high time you left poor Flossie alone :whistle:)

David Franklin
19th-October-2007, 11:15 PM
(plus I think it's high time you left poor Flossie alone :whistle:)Ewe can't pull the wool over my eyes. Flossie told me you've been following her around like a sheepdog, eyeing her up like a lamb to the slaughter, playing the shepherd when all you really want to do is give her a good ramming.

Any more of it, and I'll fleece you for every penny ewe've got!

timbp
18th-December-2007, 12:25 PM
S
For example, when leading Tango, I should focus on lots of areas, including:

Clear leading
Posture
Intention / projection
Footwork
Frame
etc.

On a good day, I reckon I can now get about 2 or 3 of these going at once for a short period. And until I can get to the "unconscious competence" level with these, I won't be able to achieve good technique.
So which two or three should I focus on?

David Bailey
18th-December-2007, 12:44 PM
So which two or three should I focus on?
In my opinion, you should always focus first on providing a good lead to your partner - so I'd recommend "clear lead" and "intention / projection".

I'd probably also add "musicality" to that list - as I'm now* starting to hear the changes in tempo in AT tracks, I'm starting to change the speed of dancing to match.

Things like footwork, patterns, decorations and so on are - to me - very much secondary. If I can lead my partner through a dance with some simple walks and sidesteps, to music, then I count that a Good Dance.

* Yes, only now, 2 years on... :tears:

Lee Bartholomew
9th-January-2008, 06:18 PM
Blimey, someone picks my worst dancing ever, puts it on the Interweb, and that's the standard I'm forever judged by :tears:

Sorry. Was waiting to film you for ages and that dance was poss the best of the bunch. :wink: :na:


I have gone from being a rotational dancer to a slotted Mj dancer. The reason I was rotational is that the teachers this way all teach over rotating the follow and teach the follows to over rotate themselves.

The other thing they do is just not talk about the slot. When dancing with people that dont dance the slot it either goes really well as it is easier to lead or goes T*ts up as they try to turn themselves.

I have been to classes from Brighton to Rye and no teacher teaches slottedness at all and every single one teaches over rotation.




So, why are these selfish and dangerous dancers getting their slotted and circular moves confused? They are not really to blame, they are badly served by their teachers. It's probably their teachers who should be shot or castrated, the bad dancers themselves deserve our sympathy - although a Tazer shot once in a while would help speed their re-education :devil:

Have to actually agree with Andy on this. Having danced at Shoreham and Findon, Shooting the teacher is cert the best option for these dancers.:devil:



The thing I always wonder about slotted dancing is why does everyone dance slotted in the lesson then rotate as soon as soon as they go in to freestyle? Would be greatfull for any suggestions as to why this happens as it compleatly baffles me. I Prob done it myself whilst learning. Think everyone did at one time whether they slotted or not.

There must be a fundamental part of the teaching of MJ that makes people dance rotated. Was suggested earlier it may be the returns / Travelling returns, but this should not matter as can still be done in slot. Maybe it is the fact that timing is not taught as part of the course. When talking about slotted dancing, I would always suggest that the dancers are at the end of their slots by the end of the bar of music (depending on move) But talking to a compleate beginner of even most intermediate dancers about beats per bar etc is prob me agro than its worth and a nightmare to do in a class situation of 70+.

Again, most people go dancing as their thing to do on a tuesday night and couldn't careless whether they look good on the dance floor or not. They just want to have a good bounce, pull a few faces and over rotate. Thats up to them. They dont all want to worry about musicality, slots, and beats per bar. Fair play to them. Dance is much easier and fun without these worries.

Anyway, Slotted dancing does have its advantges in that it is easier to lead, is better looking and allows more play.

Danced at Lazy Dave's recently in Northampton and most, if not all of the dancers, stayed in a slot. This is due to Daves teaching from the start.

If MJ is to develop in to a slotted dance form, then it has to be rebuilt at the roots and the teaching.

Fair play to DJ for having his vid up.:nice:

Most have prob seen it before but there is a vid of me before I even thought / new about slotting YouTube - Lee and nic dancing Ceroc Modern Jive (http://youtube.com/watch?v=70_oYCRdnJ0)
and one whist getting closser to working within a slot. Still a little over turning of my dance partner in it (witty) but more slotted than before YouTube - me and Witty Ceroc (http://youtube.com/watch?v=angDK3k3zTo)

gebandemuishond
9th-January-2008, 07:07 PM
The thing I always wonder about slotted dancing is why does everyone dance slotted in the lesson then rotate as soon as soon as they go in to freestyle? Would be greatfull for any suggestions as to why this happens as it compleatly baffles me. I Prob done it myself whilst learning. Think everyone did at one time whether they slotted or not.

You don't often find people claiming they stopped learning, usually it's the dance-is-a-journey, never-stop-absorbing-new-stuff etc. Only joking, I know the sentence probably has a silent "the basics" in there. :na:


There must be a fundamental part of the teaching of MJ that makes people dance rotated. Was suggested earlier it may be the returns / Travelling returns, but this should not matter as can still be done in slot. Maybe it is the fact that timing is not taught as part of the course. When talking about slotted dancing, I would always suggest that the dancers are at the end of their slots by the end of the bar of music (depending on move) But talking to a compleate beginner of even most intermediate dancers about beats per bar etc is prob me agro than its worth and a nightmare to do in a class situation of 70+.

Could you clarify this please, I'm quite interested. I would have thought that in most modern jive moves the points at which dancers are at the ends of the slot don't really coincide with the bars of music (just tried this quickly to convince myself). I guess you could distort it so they did coincide, but I really don't see much point :sick:. Or have I got it all wrong?


Most have prob seen it before but there is a vid of me before I even thought / new about slotting YouTube - Lee and nic dancing Ceroc Modern Jive (http://youtube.com/watch?v=70_oYCRdnJ0)
and one whist getting closser to working within a slot. Still a little over turning of my dance partner in it (witty) but more slotted than before YouTube - me and Witty Ceroc (http://youtube.com/watch?v=angDK3k3zTo)

I have never really paid much attention to dancing in a slot because 1) Most followers don't seem to mind and 2) I don't think other people really watch me dancing so there's not much point from an asthetic perspective, but after seeing those two clips I think I'll try to in future. Good work!

Dan

DavidB
9th-January-2008, 07:48 PM
If Modern Jive is not a rotational dance, but only rotates because of the limitations of the couples dancing, then you would expect to see a mixture of styles:
- rotating clockwise
- not rotating
- rotating anticlockwise.

How many people do you see rotating anticlockwise?


Personally I believe that Modern Jive always was, and still is, a rotational dance. Dancing slotted is just a style that some people choose to do. But please don't force it on me.

Andy McGregor
9th-January-2008, 08:09 PM
Personally I believe that Modern Jive always was, and still is, a rotational dance. Dancing slotted is just a style that some people choose to do. But please don't force it on me.I think that Modern Jive is what Modern Jive does. If people are dancing well and rotating that's fine. However, I see a lot of cross-body leads that simply don't get out of the way of their partner because they have not been taught to do so - that makes moves more of a collision in progress with the lady avoiding a body to body collision. As the guy usually leads the lady clockwise around him the rotation will usually be the same way.

NZ Monkey
9th-January-2008, 08:19 PM
Personally I believe that Modern Jive always was, and still is, a rotational dance. Dancing slotted is just a style that some people choose to do. But please don't force it on me.I don't imagine anyone would try. Slotted dancing also required moving your feet, so we understand that it's well outside your comfort zone :devil: :whistle:


How many people do you see rotating anticlockwise?Given that the majority of moves seem to start with a left-hand/right-hand hold this doesn't seem too surprising. I think I'd find rotating the dance in that direction very difficult without resorting to different handholds for most of the moves I use.

I'm not sure it's an intentional design so much as an unintended consequence of the moves we choose to use as our basics.

Lee Bartholomew
9th-January-2008, 09:33 PM
Could you clarify this please, I'm quite interested. I would have thought that in most modern jive moves the points at which dancers are at the ends of the slot don't really coincide with the bars of music (just tried this quickly to convince myself). I guess you could distort it so they did coincide, but I really don't see much point :sick:. Or have I got it all wrong?


It's quite hard to explain in written form. Prob best demonstrated but will try.

Take a Octopus for example. Most dancers who rotate would pull the woman forward and she would step around the lead. The man steps forward for the next part and again the woman would move around the man.

Done during the class, people tend to stay within a slot. That is they finish the move roughly in the same slot that they started in. However, done under the 'pressure' and speed of freestyle, they will over exaggerate the movements and end up going around in a circle.


If we do this in a slotted fashion....

The man would step forward and to his left as he pulls the woman in to the basket part. On the second beat the lead would step forward and to his left again as the woman steps back. The man ends up where the woman started and the woman ends up where the man was facing each other at the respective ends of their slots. Using this technique at speed will still keep the dancers within their slots.

As for whats meant by timing and bars etc...

MJ music consists of 4 beats to a bar (most music is 4 beats per bar but there are a few exceptions ie Waltz timing which is 3 beats per bar) which is why it is counted 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & during classes. Most people (and the way it is taught at class level) is the dancer moves during the numbers in the count and not on the &'s

Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats. Nothing wrong with this but with music being made up of 4 'counts' per bar then we could become unstuck if we know a stop or a change in the feel of the music is on its way and we want to pause or change tempo etc.

One of the great things about slottedness is say we are doing the Octopus or a similar move that takes 6 beats and we suddenly think "ahh a break is comming up in the next bar" we are going to end up with 2 beats to fit a move in. Personally I can only think of one or two moves and one of them is a travelling return.

If we are at the end of our slots, the follow and lead are in a neutral position facing each other, not over turned and both with tension ready to go. With these 2 beats left, it is so much easier for the follow ( or lead) to put in a little bit of styling for those 2 beats than it is if they were recovering from over turning and preping themselves to turn again.


I mentioned the neutral position slotted dancing gives you where you both after almost every move (there are meant exceptions though) end up facing each other with tension. Almost any move is leadable from here as shoulders and feet are towards each other so when you pull the follow forward, all she needs to is walk forwards along her line in the slot and the lead will do the rest. If she is over turned, she will be a) pulled off balance b) poss have to put another step in to turn herself back on course or c) go in to a turn mis-interperating your pull forward as a turn due to the pull forward pulling her out of her over turn and therfore starting to rotate her.


Hope all of this makes sense. Does within my little monkey brain.

Caro
9th-January-2008, 09:52 PM
Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats. Nothing wrong with this but with music being made up of 4 'counts' per bar then we could become unstuck if we know a stop or a change in the feel of the music is on its way and we want to pause or change tempo etc.


but 6 ceroc beats = 12 musical beats (Ceroc counts half beat), therefore if you started a 6 ceroc beats move at the beginning of bar 1 you would finish it at the end of bar 3. So you are hitting the end of a bar, technically speaking (well if I've understood properly what I have been taught on the subject by more musically knowledgeable people).
However I agree you may rather want to hit the end of bar 4 (i.e. spread the move over 2 'mini-phrases' if we call a mini-phrase a set of 2 bars that we -dancers - typically count from 1 to 8), and therefore add a 2 ceroc beat move.




One of the great things about slottedness is say we are doing the Octopus or a similar move that takes 6 beats and we suddenly think "ahh a break is comming up in the next bar" we are going to end up with 2 beats to fit a move in. Personally I can only think of one or two moves and one of them is a travelling return.

If we are at the end of our slots, the follow and lead are in a neutral position facing each other, not over turned and both with tension ready to go. With these 2 beats left, it is so much easier for the follow ( or lead) to put in a little bit of styling for those 2 beats than it is if they were recovering from over turning and preping themselves to turn again.


I'm not sure I'm following you there. Generally speaking slotted dancing looks more controlled and neat than rotational dancing (therefore offers more oppportunity for contrast), but I don't see why dancing in a circle would be any less musical than dancing slotted. You could show just as well that you are intentionally phrasing the music. I'm not sure I agree that when dancing in a circle people move around the circle that fast that there is significant over-turning or even preping. The leader and follower are still facing each other.

Lee Bartholomew
9th-January-2008, 10:07 PM
but 6 ceroc beats = 12 musical beats (Ceroc counts half beat), therefore if you started a 6 ceroc beats move at the beginning of bar 1 you would finish it at the end of bar 3. So you are hitting the end of a bar, technically speaking (well if I've understood properly what I have been taught on the subject by more musically knowledgeable people).
However I agree you may rather want to hit the end of bar 4 (i.e. spread the move over 2 'mini-phrases' if we call a mini-phrase a set of 2 bars that we -dancers - typically count from 1 to 8), and therefore add a 2 ceroc beat move. {/quote}

The 6 beats are 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & . As said people dont tend to dance on the & . Not at any classes I have been to anyway, but I know what you mean.



[quote=Caro;442046]
I'm not sure I'm following you there. Generally speaking slotted dancing looks more controlled and neat than rotational dancing (therefore offers more oppportunity for contrast), but I don't see why dancing in a circle would be any less musical than dancing slotted. You could show just as well that you are intentionally phrasing the music. I'm not sure I agree that when dancing in a circle people move around the circle that fast that there is significant over-turning or even preping. The leader and follower are still facing each other.

The overturning is quite often taught though which is part to blame for the rotation. If a follow overturns then they need to be pulled back on course prior to the next move which causes all kinds of connection problems.

Caro
9th-January-2008, 10:14 PM
The overturning is quite often taught though which is part to blame for the rotation. If a follow overturns then they need to be pulled back on course prior to the next move which causes all kinds of connection problems.

Again not sure I get you there. How is over-turning taught when classes (that I have seen) actually teach people to dance slotted (albeit for practical reasons)?

Lee Bartholomew
9th-January-2008, 10:36 PM
Again not sure I get you there. How is over-turning taught when classes (that I have seen) actually teach people to dance slotted (albeit for practical reasons)?

You dance in better places than I do :wink:.

Most teachers dont say 'over turn' they suger coat it by saying 'prepare'. :rolleyes:

As I said, The whole slotted concept is hard to explain in words.

gebandemuishond
9th-January-2008, 10:57 PM
As for whats meant by timing and bars etc...

MJ music consists of 4 beats to a bar (most music is 4 beats per bar but there are a few exceptions ie Waltz timing which is 3 beats per bar) which is why it is counted 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & during classes. Most people (and the way it is taught at class level) is the dancer moves during the numbers in the count and not on the &'s

Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats. Nothing wrong with this but with music being made up of 4 'counts' per bar then we could become unstuck if we know a stop or a change in the feel of the music is on its way and we want to pause or change tempo etc.

This is wrong, although the spirit of it is correct. I think Caro has mentioned the fact that music is made up of 2 'counts' per bar. It is (in the majority of MJ music) made up of 8 counts per phrase, which is why the Octopus with its 6 count pattern feels odd, because you have 2 more dance counts (one whole musical bar) until the music 'starts again' or the break happens or whatever.


If we are at the end of our slots, the follow and lead are in a neutral position facing each other, not over turned and both with tension ready to go. With these 2 beats (should be counts) left, it is so much easier for the follow ( or lead) to put in a little bit of styling for those 2 beats (counts) than it is if they were recovering from over turning and preping themselves to turn again.

I see, so you like to be at the end of the slot at the end of each musical phrase, so you can do something new to reflect the new phrase. Makes sense, I know I hate to get caught in the middle of a 6 count pattern in WCS when one phrase ends and another begins (unfortunately I'm not yet good enough at WCS to avoid this all the time).


but 6 ceroc beats = 12 musical beats (Ceroc counts half beat), therefore if you started a 6 ceroc beats move at the beginning of bar 1 you would finish it at the end of bar 3. So you are hitting the end of a bar, technically speaking (well if I've understood properly what I have been taught on the subject by more musically knowledgeable people).
However I agree you may rather want to hit the end of bar 4 (i.e. spread the move over 2 'mini-phrases' if we call a mini-phrase a set of 2 bars that we -dancers - typically count from 1 to 8), and therefore add a 2 ceroc beat move.

Pretty much, yes.


The 6 beats (counts) are 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 2 & . As said people dont tend to dance on the & . Not at any classes I have been to anyway, but I know what you mean.

People do dance on the &s all the time. Imagine a mambo/manhattan step: leader's L forward, weight on R, L back. The weight on R comes on the &.


The overturning is quite often taught though which is part to blame for the rotation. If a follow overturns then they need to be pulled back on course prior to the next move which causes all kinds of connection problems.

Fair enough, I can see how not over-rotating gives better connection all through the dance.


Dan

Caro
9th-January-2008, 11:19 PM
I think Caro has mentioned the fact that music is made up of 2 'counts' per bar. It is (in the majority of MJ music) made up of 8 counts per phrase, which is why the Octopus with its 6 count pattern feels odd, because you have 2 more dance counts (one whole musical bar) until the music 'starts again' or the break happens or whatever.


I've lost you there. Do you call a phrase 8 ceroc counts, i.e. 16 musical beats ? First time I hear that terminology being used that way.
I've heard people refering to phrases, or major phrases, as 32 musical counts (pop music and the likes), i.e. 4 mini-phrases or 8 bars, or as 48 musical counts (blues), i.e. 6 mini-phrases or 12 bars.


Pretty much, yes.


thanks for your approval, I feel so proud now.

Caro
9th-January-2008, 11:23 PM
You dance in better places than I do :wink:.


it looks like it :)



Most teachers dont say 'over turn' they suger coat it by saying 'prepare'. :rolleyes:


Again I don't think I've ever heard a Ceroc (my experience of other MJ organisations and independents is limited so I can't comment on them) teacher saying to 'prepare' at the end of a move for the next move. Usually (always?) moves end with a 'step back' which I've only seem taught straight (i.e. no over-turning or prep).
i.e: 'step back, return, and back' springs to mind...

ducasi
9th-January-2008, 11:52 PM
Most teachers dont say 'over turn' they suger coat it by saying 'prepare'. :rolleyes:
Not sure I get you... Over-turning to prep a spin or similar is perfectly valid, and doesn't lead to rotational dancing. (E.g., a return into a ceroc spin.)

Unless there are people who teach a side-step between moves as a prep?

ducasi
10th-January-2008, 12:09 AM
Going back to the thing about fitting slotted dancing into music, I think I agree with Lee – music usually fits nicely into chunks of 4 MJ counts, so dancing within those counts works nicely. This is why the Amir-style first move is (IMHO) better than the standard one – it is 4 counts rather than 5. There's nothing stopping a rotational style of MJ fitting itself into 4 count chunks though, after all, lots of other dance styles do.

As an aside, reading Michel Ange Lau's history of the early days of LeRoc/Ceroc/MJ tells us how he took the French 'Le Bop' dance which fitting everything into 4-beat (count?) moves, and freed it from this, creating moves of varied counts. While I guess it makes the dance easier to learn, I wonder if it resulted in less musicality "for free" within the dance.

gebandemuishond
10th-January-2008, 12:32 AM
I've lost you there. Do you call a phrase 8 ceroc counts, i.e. 16 musical beats ? First time I hear that terminology being used that way.
I've heard people refering to phrases, or major phrases, as 32 musical counts (pop music and the likes), i.e. 4 mini-phrases or 8 bars, or as 48 musical counts (blues), i.e. 6 mini-phrases or 12 bars.

I call a phrase the number of counts that the composer intended it to be, which in most cases in pop music, has 8 ceroc counts, or 16 musical beats, or 4 bars of music. In various other pieces of music a phrase would be longer or shorter, I'll try and think of an example.

I guess it's just a matter of terminology, but the duration of music consisting of 32 ceroc counts, 64 musical beats or 16 bars I'd call a verse or chorus or something like that. e.g. listen to Say it Right (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO6SnX9s5-w) by Nelly Furtado, which has a nice regular structure. The first verse (from "In the day..." to just before "Oh you don't mean nothing at all to me") lasts for 64 musical beats and consists of 4 phrases (you can tell there are 4 phrases because the melody and chords repeat themselves 4 times).

I hope this helps!

Dan

NZ Monkey
10th-January-2008, 01:35 AM
I call a phrase the number of counts that the composer intended it to be, which in most cases in pop music, has 8 ceroc counts, or 16 musical beats, or 4 bars of music. In various other pieces of music a phrase would be longer or shorter, I'll try and think of an example.Every pro I've heard talking about this has told me that major phrases are usually either 32 beats (4 minor phrases of 8 beats) or 48 (6 minor phrases of 8 beats). Listening to music it's usually pretty easy to see why.

Apparently Prince has a song where one of his major phrases is only 24 beats long. He's just a freak.



I guess it's just a matter of terminology, but the duration of music consisting of 32 ceroc counts, 64 musical beats or 16 bars I'd call a verse or chorus or something like that. e.g. listen to Say it Right (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO6SnX9s5-w) by Nelly Furtado, which has a nice regular structure. The first verse (from "In the day..." to just before "Oh you don't mean nothing at all to me") lasts for 64 musical beats and consists of 4 phrases (you can tell there are 4 phrases because the melody and chords repeat themselves 4 times).

I hope this helps!

DanSay it Right is phrased in the same way most pop music is - 32 beat major phrases. Often you'll find in pop music that there is little or no distinction between phrases in a verse. It's quite typical to find verses that are two major phases long. Say it Right is a good example of such a song. Robert Royston makes a point of this trend in modern music in one of his musicality DVD's.

What I'd guess is a little unusual is the the chorus is exactly the same - two major phrases or 32 beats each. I find that most of the music I listen to (which I'll confess tends to be a little less mainstream) has a notable difference in structure between the verses and choruses. As such the songs tend to have something like an AABAAB or an AABBAABB structure rather than the AAAAAA one I hear in Say it Right. That said, I did only listen to the first verse and chorus of the song before posting this so if it changes later I withdraw my statement.

I'm not a musician. They don't use this terminology at all as far as I'm aware. I'm not a champion dancer either, but I've heard a very consistant strand of teacher from those who are on this subject so I'm inclind to take their word for it. Plus - it matches what I hear myself in music.

I'm really curious where you get the idea that a phrase is 16 musical beats. There are typically no indications in a piece of music is about to change until after those first 16 beats....:confused:

All IMHO of course. If somebody out there can prove me wrong I'm more than prepared to listen :flower:

Caro
10th-January-2008, 01:42 AM
I'm really curious where you get the idea that a phrase is 16 musical beats. There are typically no indications in a piece of music is about to change until after those first 16 beats....:confused:


I'm with you there, we seem to use the same terminology (well no big surprise given that we have the same sources, really :wink: ).

However isn't there something to do with a tonic on the second half of a major phrase ? I'm guessing that's all musicians stuff really, what I hear sometimes is that there is a first half to a major phrases that creates tension and that the second half sort of 'resolves' it, in the same way as first bar / second bar of a mini-phrase (a set of 8).
The tension / resolve analogy is credit to MH who once put it that way, and I thought it made a great deal of sense with what I hear.

NZ Monkey
10th-January-2008, 02:12 AM
However isn't there something to do with a tonic on the second half of a major phrase ? I'm guessing that's all musicians stuff really, what I hear sometimes is that there is a first half to a major phrases that creates tension and that the second half sort of 'resolves' it, in the same way as first bar / second bar of a mini-phrase (a set of 8).
The tension / resolve analogy is credit to MH who once put it that way, and I thought it made a great deal of sense with what I hear.Possibly. I'm not an expert.

I can tell you though that in song's such as Wade in the Water, Sweat and Heatattack and Vine which all have 32 major phrases ending in an 8-beat break, I can't tell anything from the first 16 beats that tell me the break is coming up. If I was hearing them for the first time I wouldn't be able to tell you what was coming from the first two minor phrases. I can tell in the 3rd minor phrase. It may just be that my ear isn't sensitive enough though. :blush:

MartinHarper
10th-January-2008, 02:12 AM
How many people do you see rotating anticlockwise?

There are some moves that often rotate a little anti-clockwise in beginners. For example, a catapult with no return might start at 12:00 and finish at 11:00, if the lead stays still throughout the move.


The tension / resolve analogy is credit to MH who once put it that way, and I thought it made a great deal of sense with what I hear.

No credit to me. I read that analogy first in the book "Godel, Escher, Bach", many years ago, and it's a very old idea.

One of the applications of that idea to dancing is that dancing cross-phrase builds tension, and dancing in-phrase resolves tension.

straycat
10th-January-2008, 10:09 AM
If a follow overturns then they need to be pulled back on course prior to the next move which causes all kinds of connection problems.

Not really... it's a slight side issue, but if a follow overturns, it's easy enough to maintain connection. If my 'plans' had her in a different place to start the next move, I adapt the plans a little.

I certainly don't agree that there's any loss of muscality potential in a rotational dance. With half-way decent connection skills, one can maintain connection just fine through either.

gebandemuishond
10th-January-2008, 11:44 AM
Every pro I've heard talking about this has told me that major phrases are usually either 32 beats (4 minor phrases of 8 beats) or 48 (6 minor phrases of 8 beats). Listening to music it's usually pretty easy to see why.

Apparently Prince has a song where one of his major phrases is only 24 beats long. He's just a freak.

Say it Right is phrased in the same way most pop music is - 32 beat major phrases. Often you'll find in pop music that there is little or no distinction between phrases in a verse. It's quite typical to find verses that are two major phases long. Say it Right is a good example of such a song. Robert Royston makes a point of this trend in modern music in one of his musicality DVD's.

What I'd guess is a little unusual is the the chorus is exactly the same - two major phrases or 32 beats each. I find that most of the music I listen to (which I'll confess tends to be a little less mainstream) has a notable difference in structure between the verses and choruses. As such the songs tend to have something like an AABAAB or an AABBAABB structure rather than the AAAAAA one I hear in Say it Right. That said, I did only listen to the first verse and chorus of the song before posting this so if it changes later I withdraw my statement.

I'm not a musician. They don't use this terminology at all as far as I'm aware. I'm not a champion dancer either, but I've heard a very consistant strand of teacher from those who are on this subject so I'm inclind to take their word for it. Plus - it matches what I hear myself in music.

I'm really curious where you get the idea that a phrase is 16 musical beats. There are typically no indications in a piece of music is about to change until after those first 16 beats....:confused:

All IMHO of course. If somebody out there can prove me wrong I'm more than prepared to listen :flower:


Ok, it seems like we're just disagreeing on the meaning of "phrase", you call it a 32 ceroc count* chunk of music, I call it a 8 ceroc count chunk of music. Both are perfectly fine, and if the pros talk to you in terms of 32 count major phrases that's fine.

However, as a musician and composer I prefer to use the word phrase as meaning 8 ceroc counts, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, the origin of the word comes from woodwind players and singers, who call a phrase "the music they play in between taking breaths". E.g. in Say it Right, Nelly sings one phrase over 8 ceroc counts and the chords Em - D - C - Em, takes a breath and starts a new phrase, melodically and harmonically identical, and then another two before the chorus starts. The chorus is slightly different, so I'd describe the form of this song as AAAABBBB etc.

In answer to your question, I can definately tell the music is going to change (i.e. not carry on the same phrase) after the first 3/4 bars. It 'wants' to start again on beat 17. I'll try to think of some examples where this is very obvious.

Dan

* Please don't confuse "beat" with "ceroc count", they are two very different things, what the teacher calls out is a ceroc count, beats happen at double the pace.

Andy McGregor
10th-January-2008, 12:19 PM
Ok, it seems like we're just disagreeing on the meaning of "phrase", you call it a 32 ceroc count* chunk of music, I call it a 8 ceroc count chunk of music. Both are perfectly fine, and if the pros talk to you in terms of 32 count major phrases that's fine.Ceroc count? There are two kinds of Ceroc count. The first is measured in £ the second is the Count of Darkness. How many times to I need to remind people that Ceroc is the name of a company, not a dance. Now, there is a dancing count that some people use. And, as said by geb.. there are two musical beat counts to each dancing count.

gebandemuishond
10th-January-2008, 12:40 PM
Ceroc count? There are two kinds of Ceroc count. The first is measured in £ the second is the Count of Darkness. How many times to I need to remind people that Ceroc is the name of a company, not a dance. Now, there is a dancing count that some people use. And, as said by geb.. there are two musical beat counts to each dancing count.

Hehe, I appreciate the "ceroc is a company" rhetoric just as much as the next guy. However, I didn't want to use "dancing count" because there are not always two musical beats to each dancing count, e.g. Viennese and English waltz: one beat = one dancing count.

Dan

Andy McGregor
10th-January-2008, 01:07 PM
Hehe, I appreciate the "ceroc is a company" rhetoric just as much as the next guy. However, I didn't want to use "dancing count" because there are not always two musical beats to each dancing count, e.g. Viennese and English waltz: one beat = one dancing count.

DanHow about MJ Count?

gebandemuishond
10th-January-2008, 06:03 PM
How about MJ Count?

Ok, MJ count it is.

Dan

NZ Monkey
10th-January-2008, 08:30 PM
Ok, it seems like we're just disagreeing on the meaning of "phrase", you call it a 32 ceroc count* chunk of music, I call it a 8 ceroc count chunk of music. Both are perfectly fine, and if the pros talk to you in terms of 32 count major phrases that's fine.

...snip....

* Please don't confuse "beat" with "ceroc count", they are two very different things, what the teacher calls out is a ceroc count, beats happen at double the pace.[/ No I don't. I call it a 32 musical beat chunk of music. So do all the dance teachers I know of. I am well aware that there is a difference between beat and *MJ* count. That's why I was referring to the beat. If I had my way MJ would throw away the count entirely.

I'm also aware that musicians categorize things slightly differently, although I am unsure of the specifics. Given that this is a dance forum and not a musicians one....I'm happy to use the dancers definition.



However, as a musician and composer I prefer to use the word phrase as meaning 8 ceroc counts, for a variety of reasons. Firstly, the origin of the word comes from woodwind players and singers, who call a phrase "the music they play in between taking breaths". E.g. in Say it Right, Nelly sings one phrase over 8 ceroc counts and the chords Em - D - C - Em, takes a breath and starts a new phrase, melodically and harmonically identical, and then another two before the chorus starts. The chorus is slightly different, so I'd describe the form of this song as AAAABBBB etc.Is that definition an officially recognized one in the dance community? I'm running with the assumption that it isn't. It may be better to explain that the way you define terms is different to the mainstream. You didn't do that. In fact what you said was
This is wrong, although the spirit of it is correct. I think Caro has mentioned the fact that music is made up of 2 'counts' per bar. It is (in the majority of MJ music) made up of 8 counts per phrase....Clearly not specifying that your definition was different has caused some confusion.



In answer to your question, I can definately tell the music is going to change (i.e. not carry on the same phrase) after the first 3/4 bars. It 'wants' to start again on beat 17. I'll try to think of some examples where this is very obvious.OK, I can tell that it wants to continue. I suppose I was taking that as self evident.

What I can't tell it is anything about the structure of the rest of the phrase - which is commonly accepted* as being either 32 or 48 beats in the vast majority MJ music. I can't tell if the phrase will be 32 or 48 beats. I can't tell if it will end in a break. I can't tell if it will build up to a hit on the first beat of the next phrase or pitter out and start afresh. I need to wait until after the first 16 beats before I can really pick up any clues as to how and were it's going to end.


*read: by everyone in this conversation apart from you as far as I can tell

gebandemuishond
10th-January-2008, 10:46 PM
Right, where to begin?


No I don't. I call it a 32 musical beat chunk of music. So do all the dance teachers I know of. I am well aware that there is a difference between beat and *MJ* count. That's why I was referring to the beat. If I had my way MJ would throw away the count entirely.

I'm also aware that musicians categorize things slightly differently, although I am unsure of the specifics. Given that this is a dance forum and not a musicians one....I'm happy to use the dancers definition.

Is that definition an officially recognized one in the dance community? I'm running with the assumption that it isn't. It may be better to explain that the way you define terms is different to the mainstream. You didn't do that. In fact what you said was:

Quote:
This is wrong, although the spirit of it is correct. I think Caro has mentioned the fact that music is made up of 2 'counts' per bar. It is (in the majority of MJ music) made up of 8 counts per phrase....

Clearly not specifying that your definition was different has caused some confusion.


My "this is wrong" comment was directed at someone who said "Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats". This is wrong, there's no way you could fit an octopus into 6 beats.

I'm glad you're well aware of the difference between a beat and a MJ count, a lot of people aren't. Ok, so you call a phrase a chunk of music that lasts for 32 musical beats. Or 8 bars. Fair enough, I wouldn't use that terminology myself and I haven't heard anyone else (dance teacher or musician) use it either, maybe things are different wherever you dance.


OK, I can tell that it wants to continue. I suppose I was taking that as self evident.

What I can't tell it is anything about the structure of the rest of the phrase - which is commonly accepted* as being either 32 or 48 beats in the vast majority MJ music. I can't tell if the phrase will be 32 or 48 beats. I can't tell if it will end in a break. I can't tell if it will build up to a hit on the first beat of the next phrase or pitter out and start afresh. I need to wait until after the first 16 beats before I can really pick up any clues as to how and were it's going to end.


*read: by everyone in this conversation apart from you as far as I can tell

Ok, fair enough, this last disagreement of ours seems to stem directly from our differing views on what consitutes a phrase. I call it 16 beats as this makes most sense to me as a musician and a dancer, you call it 32 beats because presumably that makes most sense to you as a dancer. Nothing wrong with that difference, so please don't get bitchy with the small print.

Dan

tsh
10th-January-2008, 11:18 PM
My "this is wrong" comment was directed at someone who said "Some moves (such as the Octopus) are taught over six beats". This is wrong, there's no way you could fit an octopus into 6 beats.


How can you be so sure?

Caro
10th-January-2008, 11:33 PM
Fair enough, I wouldn't use that terminology myself and I haven't heard anyone else (dance teacher or musician) use it either, maybe things are different wherever you dance.


or may be you haven't been exposed to it yet ? Any chance this might be related to fact that you only started dancing fairly recently ?

Given the general tone of your posts I'd say you're suffering from accute intermediatis... :whistle:

gebandemuishond
11th-January-2008, 12:08 AM
How can you be so sure?

Simple, the intro to "Crazy" by Gnarls Berkeley lasts 5 beats. 6 beats is the time taken from the beginning of the song to the first "I remember". I don't think you can change positions 3 times in an Octopus in that time.



or may be you haven't been exposed to it yet ? Any chance this might be related to fact that you only started dancing fairly recently ?

Given the general tone of your posts I'd say you're suffering from accute intermediatis... :whistle:


Yes, you are quite right, I might not have been exposed to it yet, I have only been dancing MJ for 10 months or so. My point, for what it's worth, was that I think in phrases of 16 beats because this helps me, and I am genuinely baffled at the thought of a phrase lasting 32 beats. I could try to explain why, however, my previous attempts have not gone done too well...

I'm not sure whether I have intermediatis or not, maybe we'll have to have a dance someday and you can give a full diagnosis :nice: The general tone of posts on this forum seem to be fairly aggressive to be honest, so I might try to keep my opinions (as MJ naive as they may be) to myself lest they be jumped on and crushed.

Dan

David Bailey
11th-January-2008, 12:18 AM
I'm not sure whether I have intermediatis or not, maybe we'll have to have a dance someday and you can give a full diagnosis :nice: The general tone of posts on this forum seem to be fairly aggressive to be honest, so I might try to keep my opinions (as MJ naive as they may be) to myself lest they be jumped on and crushed.
I love the term "intermediatitis". :clap: :rofl:

No-one - I guarantee - will have a go at you for expressing an opinion. This is a dance discussion forum, after all, and no-one knows everything. No, not even me.


But occasionally, people do tend to express their opinions as The One True Way, and that does tend to put other people's backs up a bit. Sometimes, new intermediate dancers are very confident and sure - I was, waaay back when I was a newbie.

And it can take you many years of hard work to destroy that confidence :)

MartinHarper
11th-January-2008, 12:46 AM
Simple, the intro to "Crazy" by Gnarls Berkeley lasts 5 beats. 6 beats is the time taken from the beginning of the song to the first "I remember". I don't think you can change positions 3 times in an Octopus in that time.

You may be underestimating just how deathly slow some people prefer their Modern Jive music.

Caro
11th-January-2008, 01:05 AM
Yes, you are quite right, I might not have been exposed to it yet, I have only been dancing MJ for 10 months or so.
(...)
I'm not sure whether I have intermediatis or not, maybe we'll have to have a dance someday and you can give a full diagnosis

I'm afraid the first diagnosis of intermediatitis is done on this very forum. As opposed to hotshotitis which is best diagnosed at a dance venue (well, apart in my case for the latter, but I'm a dancical exception).
Occasionally, there are false positives of intermediatitis that can be re-diagnosed at a dance venue, but those are extremely rare.

For your information the diagnosis is based on the following equation, which for obvious reasons we'll call the Equation de Caro :
[(Number of One Truth Statements - willingness to acknowledge possibility of any of those OTS being inaccurate) ^tone of post ] / (years started dancing x years on this forum) = indice de Caro
The highest the indice, the more severe the intermediatitis.
Incidentally it is always found as well that Indice de Caro >> rep total²
(The dimensional analysis here is quite complex obviously so I'll leave that for another time.)




The general tone of posts on this forum seem to be fairly aggressive to be honest, so I might try to keep my opinions (as MJ naive as they may be) to myself lest they be jumped on and crushed.


No they're not ! :angry: :wink:
In fact most often the tone of replies are in line with the tone of the original post. There may be a clue there :whistle:

or as DJ said in his own (new) mellow mod style ;):


But occasionally, people do tend to express their opinions as The One True Way, and that does tend to put other people's backs up a bit. Sometimes, new intermediate dancers are very confident and sure - I was, waaay back when I was a newbie.

And it can take you many years of hard work to destroy that confidence :)

So seriously, though... if you find people are being harsh at you, just try and acknowledge from time to time that what you post is your opinion / understanding and might be mislead. And when you turn out to be the next Amir... well I'll probably shut up. :blush:

NZ Monkey
11th-January-2008, 01:08 AM
And it can take you many years of hard work to destroy that confidence :)So very true. I try my best to do so in a friendly and efficient manner though. :na:


6 beats is the time taken from the beginning of the song to the first "I remember". I don't think you can change positions 3 times in an Octopus in that time.Well, the move as I know it only changes places twice and that is possible in 6 beats.

That said, it'd take some pretty tight footwork to do it comfortably to that song but not impossible. Certainly it's doable to slower songs.


Fair enough, I wouldn't use that terminology myself and I haven't heard anyone else (dance teacher or musician) use it either, maybe things are different wherever you dance.I recommend taking one of Amirs workshops on musicality if ever get a chance. Other teachers with fine reputations also offer similar ones from time to time, such as Frank or David and Lily Barker although I've never had the privilege of taking them myself.

For what it's worth, the phrasing I've described appears to me to be pretty much universally accepted. Or at least on three continents and a number of islands. As I've said before I believe the definitions used by musicians are a little different, but are not terribly applicable here.

Also for what it's worth, the definition I've provided isn't hard and fast either. There are exceptions even in some pop tracks. There is at least one song on my iPod that has 32 beat major phrases with a 4 beat bridge between each one. Similarly, there is an AC/DC song that simply misses a beat in one bar. Situations like these are not common however.


Nothing wrong with that difference, so please don't get bitchy with the small print.A difference of opinion is one thing. Telling someone outright that they're wrong* and then giving them information that directly contradicts very well established dance theory is another thing entirely.

I'm not being bitchy (well, trying not to anyway). I'm calling out a claim so that I can understand where you're coming from. It isn't personal, and nobody's going to hold a grudge.

*And I'm not sure if he was or not...I tend to lightly skim over Lee's posts as I find them hard to read sometimes so I didn't bother checking :blush:

gebandemuishond
11th-January-2008, 01:34 AM
So very true. I try my best to do so in a friendly and efficient manner though. :na:

Well, the move as I know it only changes places twice and that is possible in 6 beats.

That said, it'd take some pretty tight footwork to do it comfortably to that song but not impossible. Certainly it's doable to slower songs.

I recommend taking one of Amirs workshops on musicality if ever get a chance. Other teachers with fine reputations also offer similar ones from time to time, such as Frank or David and Lily Barker although I've never had the privilege of taking them myself.

For what it's worth, the phrasing I've described appears to me to be pretty much universally accepted. Or at least on three continents and a number of islands. As I've said before I believe the definitions used by musicians are a little different, but are not terribly applicable here.

For what it's worth, the definition I've provided isn't hard and fast either. There are exceptions even in some pop tracks. There is at least one song on my iPod that has 32 beat major phrases with a 4 beat bridge between each one. Similarly, there is an AC/DC song that simply misses a beat in one bar. Situations like these are not common however.

A difference of opinion is one thing. Telling someone outright that they're wrong* and then giving them information that directly contradicts very well established dance theory is another thing entirely.

I'm not being bitchy (well, trying not to anyway). I'm calling out a claim so that I can understand where you're coming from. It isn't personal, and nobody's going to hold a grudge.

*And I'm not sure if he was or not...I tend to lightly skim over Lee's posts as I find them hard to read sometimes so I didn't bother checking :blush:

Ok, let's suppose I'm wrong about the length of a phrase as defined by dancers. It doesn't actually matter, I said Lee was wrong about a different but related matter (the beat/count confusion I think it was).

Where I come from the Octopus changes place 3 times and you probably couldn't do that in 6 beats of music, no matter how nimble your feet.

To be honest, it's all largely irrelevant as you don't need to count beats to dance with musicality.


Ok that's my last word on the matter, I'm pretty fed up now, could a moderator please delete my account, I can't work out how by myself.

Happy dancing guys, I'll be back when I'm the next Amir :nice:.

Dan

Caro
11th-January-2008, 11:23 AM
Ok that's my last word on the matter, I'm pretty fed up now, could a moderator please delete my account, I can't work out how by myself.


come on geb don't throw your Play Schools just yet, take the feedback on board and move on :nice:

Andy McGregor
11th-January-2008, 01:43 PM
Ok that's my last word on the matter, I'm pretty fed up now, could a moderator please delete my account, I can't work out how by myself.

Happy dancing guys, I'll be back when I'm the next Amir :nice:.

DanCome on geb. This was a robust debate with no name calling or personal comments that I could see.

FWIW I thought your post on phrasing in music was fab and think someone who can make such posts is an asset to the forum :flower:


come on geb don't throw your Play Schools just yet, take the feedback on board and move on :nice::yeah:

Amir
11th-January-2008, 01:55 PM
Phrase and Sentence
If any simple four-line folk tune, hymn tune, &c., be hummed through, it will be felt to fall definitely into two haves; these are musical Sentences. If one of these sentences be now hummed it will be felt to fall again into two halves; these are musical phrases. in this analysis two 'Phrases' form a 'Sentence', but some theorists would prefer to call the 'Sentence' the group of the four 'Phrases' there is no accepted understanding amongst musicians on this point but all are pretty well agreed as to the meaning of the word 'phrase', though in analysing any particular composition one theorist might on occasion prefer to consider as one phrase a particular passage which another would prefer to consider as two phrases....

The normal length of a phrase is four measures, but three-measure phrases are not uncommon, and what has obviously been first conceived by the composer as a four-measure phrase is often found to have been extended by him to five measures. There is thus no rule as to phrase length, and indeed the introduction of a change of length often gives a very accepted variety.

The phase itself, short as it may be, is not the lowest unit; closely examined it will often be found to fall into half phrases and these into motifs.

The building up of a long movement in composition is then from the motif to the half phrase to the phrase, to the sentence, to the subject, to the section and so the movement of the composition as a whole.

-The Oxford Companion to Music, Scholes


And in case you were wondering, a measure is what most of us here call a bar, because ‘The measures are, in notation, marked off from one another by ‘bars’ or ‘bar-lines’ before each of the strongly accented beats. As a consequence, the British have come to use the word bar for ‘measure’, which is illogical and yet seems to cause little confusion.’

So dance teachers who call 32 counts a 'phrase' are wrong, from a music theory point of view, but we misuse words like syncopation and say silly things like 'dance to the melody, not the rhythm' (when in fact rhythm is one of the components of melody) so best just to be aware that the same words are being used by different people to mean different things, and even amongst dance teachers 'phrase' will not always mean the same thing, although in WCS it seems fairly standardized.

straycat
11th-January-2008, 02:29 PM
Ok that's my last word on the matter, I'm pretty fed up now, could a moderator please delete my account, I can't work out how by myself.

Can't be done, I'm afraid... like the rest of us, you're now doomed to keep posting on here for all eternity. You don't think any of us are here by choice, do you? (Take DavidJames, for example, who's been posting on here since 1864)...

Back on the off-topic, I'm a little unclear on why it seems to matter so much - it's just a matter of terminology, after all. A lot of us have very different ways of looking at it, but it all amounts to the same thing. Since my focus is Lindy and proper music (swing :devil:), I think in terms of 1 count=1 beat, 1 bar= 8 beats (or two musical bars) - but it's still describing exactly the same music, and means just the same thing.

Caro
11th-January-2008, 02:36 PM
Back on the off-topic, I'm a little unclear on why it seems to matter so much - it's just a matter of terminology, after all. A lot of us have very different ways of looking at it, but it all amounts to the same thing. Since my focus is Lindy and proper music (swing :devil:), I think in terms of 1 count=1 beat, 1 bar= 8 beats (or two musical bars) - but it's still describing exactly the same music, and means just the same thing.

it doesn't indeed, I think most of us are aware that musicians and dancers use different terminologies, and sometimes dancers do too (for example your dancer bar to me it is either 2 bars or a mini-phrase). It's just important that one clarifies what one means so that we can keep understanding each other, instead of starting to claim 'you're wrong / incorrect / whatever'. :flower:

gebandemuishond
11th-January-2008, 04:02 PM
Apologies to all. :flower: It was getting late at night and I was narked off at many things.

I will endeavour to be more open minded in future.

Dan

NZ Monkey
12th-January-2008, 03:27 AM
Apologies to all. :flower: It was getting late at night and I was narked off at many things.

I will endeavour to be more open minded in future.

DanNot a problem gebandemuishond :flower:

And thank you to Amir for posting that musicians definition of phrases as well :respect:

Andy McGregor
12th-January-2008, 06:59 AM
Apologies to all. :flower: It was getting late at night and I was narked off at many things.

I will endeavour to be more open minded in future.

Dan:yeah:

Welcome back :clap:

Andy

p.s. Just gone midnight? That wasn't late at night. This is late at night :tears:

Lee Bartholomew
12th-January-2008, 03:35 PM
The octopus is def done over 6 beats.

There are 4 beats to a bar, my music reading skills and many years of playing piano and guitar etc may have taught me wrong but I doubt it :wink:.

The &'s are half beats. Go back to the learning of the octopus and you will find teacher teach it along the lines of...

Wrap & out & man wrap & out & woman wrap & out.

The words simply replace the 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

Now if Anyone dances on the &'s then thats fine, just dancing on the half beats, what many people call double time.

Mods - Should the whole counts thing be in another thread as it is not really part of the rotation stuff.

straycat
12th-January-2008, 06:04 PM
The octopus is def done over 6 beats.

There are 4 beats to a bar, my music reading skills and many years of playing piano and guitar etc may have taught me wrong but I doubt it :wink:.

[etc]


I think this is one of those cases where the terminology does need nailing down a bit more.

To take a solid example: I think everyone knows Popa Chubby's Sweat. First chorus comes at 1:51

Now... in purely musical terms, the word 'Sweat' occurs on beat 1 of the bar. Four beats in the bar, and the next bar starts with 'Bullets'. In Lindy terms, that's one bar, or one eight-count.

I would contend that one pass of an Octopus would take one musical bar, or half a Lindy bar, or four counts, so in Lindy terms it's a twelve count move - you could do it in six only by double-timing it.

Would it be a fair summary to say you're talking about them MJ counts mentioned somewhere in this thread, of two beats per count, hence six of your 'MJ counts'?

Lee Bartholomew
12th-January-2008, 07:03 PM
To take a solid example: I think everyone knows Popa Chubby's Sweat.

Nope, Too young and too trendy. :na:




Would it be a fair summary to say you're talking about them MJ counts mentioned somewhere in this thread, of two beats per count, hence six of your 'MJ counts'?

I thought everyone would be talking about MJ 'counts' as it is a MJ forum and a thread about rotational / slotted MJ!!??

Anyway.. Fact is in musical terms, with normal timings, there are 4 beats per bar and in between them beats are half beats .

Most people dance on the beat. Some more advanced dancers use the half beats as do wCS, and Lindy'ers, but we are talking MJ here...

There are moves that use half beats, manhattens (:innocent:) etc, but all beginners moves use the beat.

Forget MJ counts, if this is going to be discused further, lets talk beats and half beats to stop any confusion, rather than MJ counts, Lindy Counts etc.

Caro
12th-January-2008, 07:28 PM
Anyway.. Fact is in musical terms, with normal timings, there are 4 beats per bar and in between them beats are half beats .


that's my understanding too, well as far as 4/4 music is concerned.


There are moves that use half beats, manhattens (:innocent:) etc, but all beginners moves use the beat.


the problem seems to be that here in this example you call half-beat what most of us call just 'beat' (as in 4 beats per bar).
I would rephrase and say that 'beginners moves use the downbeat', I think that's clearer as afaik there aren't different definitions (musicians / dancers) for downbeat and upbeat. Manhattans make you step on both downbeats and upbeats.

straycat
12th-January-2008, 07:50 PM
Forget MJ counts, if this is going to be discused further, lets talk beats and half beats to stop any confusion, rather than MJ counts, Lindy Counts etc.

OK - fine by me. So four beats to the bar, hence 12 beats to an Octopus (see my earlier post for the explanation)

Grand. Where were we again?

EricD
13th-January-2008, 06:54 AM
Where were we again?

Rotating. Or not.

Forgive me if someone's already suggested this, but I find rotation as a couple can occur if the follower doesn't return 'on the spot', but takes a step or two to her left while turning.

I thought I heard it called a 'Sinéad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin%C3%A9ad_O'Connor)' turn. Or is it a fancy French way of saying 'chained' ? (Chainé ?) You know, when you put your footprints in a straight line, instead of making a tiny circle so you end with your feet back where they started.

Last year there was an attempt in Ceroc Central to get people to 'spin' their turns: turning 360° on one foot as a pivot during 1.5 whatsits of the music, braking with the other, and stepping back on the pivot foot for 0.5 whatsits. (Whatsits? I'm trying to avoid controversy here ...)
It only seems to happen in some Lessons, Workshops and on free DVDs though, not on the dancefloor!

I think of my feet in a turn as walking like a bulldozer turning on the spot - one track (foot) goes forwards, the other goes back. Either you do the splits or turn in a zero-radius circle so you end up where you started.

If you make a quarter-spin+quarter-turn on each foot then you are in the equivalent case of being half-way between spinning and turning. This seems to be commonest.

jivemecrazy.com (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JS2n0MJVnK4) ('International Latin Jive World Superstar' - ie ballroom? - Karina Smirnoff) spins her returns at 7 seconds and demos slowly at 48 seconds.

jivenation.co.uk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKbGdxoRrU) Susie Kable ('BEST DANCE LESSONS in the WORLD'!) goes to the other extreme - turning her spins ! Even when she is spinning, she is transferring her weight from foot to foot, but at twice the normal rate. (turn at 17, 28, 37, spin at 18 & 30 seconds)

Both seem to end where they started, or at least 'in the slot'.
Is modesty an antipodean trait? (Yes, NZmonkey, I know we're the real antipodeans here in the UK!)

Personally I like to contrast a turn (raise & hold the hand, normal-speed footwork) and a spin (flat hand, lead with both hands push-pull, rotate on one foot). I think the distinction is worth preserving.

I am not sure how I would lead a spin by raising her hand !

Perhaps this should be another thread/poll ?

Lee Bartholomew
13th-January-2008, 01:47 PM
OK - fine by me. So four beats to the bar, hence 12 beats to an Octopus (see my earlier post for the explanation)

Grand. Where were we again?

Actually Stray, I agree. You are right. The & is norm a music beat as well so 12 beats for an octopuss. Said I had a monkey brain. :tears:

Back to slotted talk...

tsh
14th-January-2008, 06:32 PM
Based on my observations from utopia, rotation appeared to be created not by 'wandering returns', but by the 'step forward at 45 degrees' which some followers seem to have adopted. Returns won't help, but they don't seem to detract significantly from me trying to lead linear patterns. Since my linear patterns involve me stepping off the slot, if the follower tries to walk round me as well, the rotation becomes more exaggerated so it sort of makes sense...

Sean

timbp
23rd-April-2008, 12:14 PM
Rotating. Or not.

Forgive me if someone's already suggested this, but I find rotation as a couple can occur if the follower doesn't return 'on the spot', but takes a step or two to her left while turning.



And the leader doesn't follow.
If the leader does follow to maintain the orientation of the slot, then you get translation instead of rotation.

Which do you want? Depends where the space is on the dance floor.

I generally try to lead a slotted dance, but I'll change that at any time to fit the available floor space.

Alan Doyle
3rd-September-2008, 11:42 PM
Modern Jive can be danced as both a slotted dance & rotational dance. The moves are generally taught "slotted", but in freestyle it ends up being a mish mash of both.

Andy McGregor
4th-September-2008, 01:27 PM
Modern Jive can be danced as both a slotted dance & rotational dance. The moves are generally taught "slotted", but in freestyle it ends up being a mish mash of both.That doesn't necessarily make it correct. It's just that some people end up being a bit sloppy.

kiwichook
21st-November-2008, 06:08 AM
Calling all rotators out there! The place for you to dance safely and amongst your friends as fellow rotators is in the provincial cities of New Zealand. We take great pride in the fact we teach people to dance like this. Speed is also very important cos the the faster you can dance the moves in this fashion the better we think and know we are. Because this art has been mastered this is why we are producing some really great teachers. As we say over here, "well, they are world famous in whykickamoocow". They deserve all the respect they get and should be given.

We don't understand why anyone would think that our dancing looks messy rather we think it looks really awesome as we are moving all the time and we get to chase each other all over the floor! Our girls can cope with the constant circling and spinning without throwing up - they have cast iron guts. After all, we are descended from good farming stock!

To rotate is so much fun and is clearly the only correct and proper way to dance. Anyone who dances on a line or in some funny slotted fashion at any one point clearly doesn't understand what they are doing and can't or is not, dancing Ceroc properly and must be doing this thing we have heard people talk about called errr what is it ?? ummm "modern jive" I think??

We 're not sure what modern jive is over here ?? After all, that is not Ceroc, we are not "line dancers" and these funny foreign people that visit us and tell us they are "modern jivers" - well, sorry but they just need lots of help and have so much to still learn cos they ain't doing Ceroc as far as we are concerned.

Alan Doyle
21st-November-2008, 01:03 PM
<Quote>
but 6 ceroc beats = 12 musical beats (Ceroc counts half beat), therefore if you started a 6 ceroc beats move at the beginning of bar 1 you would finish it at the end of bar 3. So you are hitting the end of a bar, technically speaking (well if I've understood properly what I have been taught on the subject by more musically knowledgeable people).
However I agree you may rather want to hit the end of bar 4 (i.e. spread the move over 2 'mini-phrases' if we call a mini-phrase a set of 2 bars that we -dancers - typically count from 1 to 8), and therefore add a 2 ceroc beat move.
</quote>

Ok people seem to be getting confused about beats and how they are structured.

If there are 3 beats in a bar then its triple (3) time
If there are 4 beats in a bar then it is quadruple (4) time

These beats can be broken down into 2 parts (simple time) i.e. counted 1& 2& 3& 4&
They can also be broken down in to 3 parts (compound time) i.e. counted 1&a 2&a 3&a 4&a

Modern Jive counts simple quadruple time (but usually starts counting on the up beat i.e. &1 &2 &3 &4)
WCS counts compound quadruple time (but usually starts counting on the up beat &a1 &a2 &a3 &a4)

Andy McGregor
21st-November-2008, 02:06 PM
Ok people seem to be getting confused about beats and how they are structured.One of the most confusing things is the 5&6&7&8& - mostly because the 8 is on the 7 of the minor phrase in 4/4 time music.

There are some people who say "it's5&6&7&8" the "it's" is on the 1 so that the 8 is actually on the 8. The problem is that this puts people who are used to the 5&6&7&8& count onto the 2 of the next phrase - which is even worse than the whole saying 8 on the 7 controversy :whistle:

Alan Doyle
21st-November-2008, 02:59 PM
One of the most confusing things is the 5&6&7&8& - mostly because the 8 is on the 7 of the minor phrase in 4/4 time music.

There are some people who say "it's5&6&7&8" the "it's" is on the 1 so that the 8 is actually on the 8. The problem is that this puts people who are used to the 5&6&7&8& count onto the 2 of the next phrase - which is even worse than the whole saying 8 on the 7 controversy :whistle:
how do I do quotes?

If you're counting 1& 2& 3& 4& 5& 6& 7& 8&

the "it's" in the above example is the & part of the 4th beat (or the upbeat).

NZ Monkey
21st-November-2008, 11:16 PM
There are some people who say "it's5&6&7&8" the "it's" is on the 1 so that the 8 is actually on the 8. The problem is that this puts people who are used to the 5&6&7&8& count onto the 2 of the next phrase - which is even worse than the whole saying 8 on the 7 controversy :whistle:I've had one teacher who did this regularly, and it messed with my head chronically. I was always "out of time" with the rest of the class beginning routines :rofl: (except it didn't seem quite so funny at the time).


how do I do quotes?You're almost there. Use[] rather than <> and you'll be fine :)



Calling all rotators out there! The place for you to dance safely and amongst your friends as fellow rotators is in the provincial cities of New Zealand. We take great pride in the fact we teach people to dance like this. Speed is also very important cos the the faster you can dance the moves in this fashion the better we think and know we are. Because this art has been mastered this is why we are producing some really great teachers. As we say over here, "well, they are world famous in whykickamoocow". They deserve all the respect they get and should be given.You know, there are more civilized areas of the country than the Waikato..... you could always try moving there. More than one farmer has made the push north! I'm not to sure how well the Whaikikamukow joke goes down with foreigners who don't understand Maori either :wink:

timbp
29th-March-2009, 12:18 PM
Calling all rotators out there! The place for you to dance safely and amongst your friends as fellow rotators is in the provincial cities of New Zealand. We take great pride in the fact we teach people to dance like this. Speed is also very important cos the the faster you can dance the moves in this fashion the better we think and know we are. Because this art has been mastered this is why we are producing some really great teachers. As we say over here, "well, they are world famous in whykickamoocow". They deserve all the respect they get and should be given.

We don't understand why anyone would think that our dancing looks messy rather we think it looks really awesome as we are moving all the time and we get to chase each other all over the floor! Our girls can cope with the constant circling and spinning without throwing up - they have cast iron guts. After all, we are descended from good farming stock!

To rotate is so much fun and is clearly the only correct and proper way to dance. Anyone who dances on a line or in some funny slotted fashion at any one point clearly doesn't understand what they are doing and can't or is not, dancing Ceroc properly and must be doing this thing we have heard people talk about called errr what is it ?? ummm "modern jive" I think??

We 're not sure what modern jive is over here ?? After all, that is not Ceroc, we are not "line dancers" and these funny foreign people that visit us and tell us they are "modern jivers" - well, sorry but they just need lots of help and have so much to still learn cos they ain't doing Ceroc as far as we are concerned.

This post looks like a satire, except that I recently danced with several NZ followers.

Some of them had great tension and could follow some complicated moves, but they were unable to properly follow basic moves. That is, if I led her to change places, she would move somewhere else, usually about 60 degrees clockwise.

For a simple change of place ("Man breakthrough", "Underarm walkthrough", "Travelling return"), the follower was likely to finish up to 60 degrees away from where I expected her. I don't believe my lead is perfect, but when the error is that large I suspect the follower is contributing to the problem.

Add that to the gossip I heard (suggest they dance in a slot and they object to "line dancing")...

FoxyFunkster
29th-March-2009, 01:27 PM
This post looks like a satire, except that I recently danced with several NZ followers.

Some of them had great tension and could follow some complicated moves, but they were unable to properly follow basic moves. That is, if I led her to change places, she would move somewhere else, usually about 60 degrees clockwise.

For a simple change of place ("Man breakthrough", "Underarm walkthrough", "Travelling return"), the follower was likely to finish up to 60 degrees away from where I expected her. I don't believe my lead is perfect, but when the error is that large I suspect the follower is contributing to the problem.

Add that to the gossip I heard (suggest they dance in a slot and they object to "line dancing")...

Interesting thread this is, Some good stuff posted and quite alot of not so good stuff posted imho, In simple terms there are 2 types of physical body lead, Rotational and linear, I have seen too many MJ moves taught when the teacher has asked the leader has led a move that starts with a linear lead and then he is telling the follower her response should be rotational!!! hence the confusion......the question of whether you dance rotation or Slotted is purely a personal preference, but there is a very big difference is how you lead both, They are polar opposites.....Ladies should not be taught where to go or which foot to stand on first, Men should be taught how to lead properly and told what they are leading then the women should be taught what should be happening as the perfect follower`s response
But as a teacher it takes a greater understanding of the physics of dance work before teaching correctly what both partners should be doing.

Personally i teach and dance slotted because i prefer the styling of WCS and i also think slotted is a far safer bet on a crowded dancefloor.

timbp
29th-March-2009, 01:56 PM
Interesting thread this is, Some good stuff posted and quite alot of not so good stuff posted imho, In simple terms there are 2 types of physical body lead, Rotational and linear, I have seen too many MJ moves taught when the teacher has asked the leader has led a move that starts with a linear lead and then he is telling the follower her response should be rotational!!! hence the confusion......the question of whether you dance rotation or Slotted is purely a personal preference, but there is a very big difference is how you lead both, They are polar opposites.....Ladies should not be taught where to go or which foot to stand on first, Men should be taught how to lead properly and told what they are leading then the women should be taught what should be happening as the perfect follower`s response
But as a teacher it takes a greater understanding of the physics of dance work before teaching correctly what both partners should be doing.

Personally i teach and dance slotted because i prefer the styling of WCS and i also think slotted is a far safer bet on a crowded dancefloor.

I don't believe the slot is important in itself.

As a leader, I use it more as a reference (mainly in classes). If the result of a move should be a change of place, then I expect to have swapped places during the move. If the move seems to have worked, but we have not exactly changed places, then I have done something wrong and I need to think about and practise the move more.
Then in freestyle I can modify the lead to make my follower go through the move and step into the free space I have found.
If she rotates 60 degrees without my lead I can adjust, but I prefer dancing with women who follow, rather than those who (follow + 60 degrees).

In freestyle, I lead my partner to step into free space. That's hard to do if she's not stepping where I led.
I can modify the lead to make my follower go through the move and step into the free space I have found.
If she rotates 60 degrees I can adjust, but I prefer dancing with women who follow, rather than those who (follow + 60 degrees).

Gadget
29th-March-2009, 02:52 PM
Personally i teach and dance slotted because i prefer the styling of WCS and i also think slotted is a far safer bet on a crowded dancefloor.

You think slotted is safer? Take a box of matches and empty them onto a tray. Every point they touch is a potential collision.
Take the same number of marbles and empty them onto a tray. Every point they touch is a potential collision.

The "importance" of slotted dancing has nothing to do with the slot it's self - it's to do with the control and floor craft involved in maintaining your position on the floor and controlling your partner's position on the floor.

Personally I prefer the more amorphous form of a cross rather than a slot or circular.

{in the case of a "+60º" follower I just add another 30º rather than fight to take that 60º back again}

FoxyFunkster
29th-March-2009, 06:51 PM
You think slotted is safer? Take a box of matches and empty them onto a tray. Every point they touch is a potential collision.
Take the same number of marbles and empty them onto a tray. Every point they touch is a potential collision.

The "importance" of slotted dancing has nothing to do with the slot it's self - it's to do with the control and floor craft involved in maintaining your position on the floor and controlling your partner's position on the floor.

Personally I prefer the more amorphous form of a cross rather than a slot or circular.

{in the case of a "+60º" follower I just add another 30º rather than fight to take that 60º back again}

This really doesn`t require formulas, In the states at the WCS events i`ve been to, everyone dances in a short slot, ie just changing places not ravelling very far and as a result there are hardly any clashes even on a packed dance floor, at the MJ events i go to when it is busy it`s like being in piccadilly circus! total chaos ensues!!! The emphasis as written should be on awareness form the leader primarily, But i still feel the slot is a safer starting point for teaching floor craft.

David Franklin
29th-March-2009, 08:08 PM
You think slotted is safer? Take a box of matches and empty them onto a tray.If that's what your slotted dancing looks like, "ur doin it rong".

On the other hand:


at the WCS events i`ve been to, everyone dances in a short slot, ie just changing places not ravelling very far and as a result there are hardly any clashes even on a packed dance floor, at the MJ events i go to when it is busy it`s like being in piccadilly circus! total chaos ensues!!!In my limited experience of WCS events, the most 'packed' WCS floor doesn't come close to how busy a packed MJ floor is. At comparable levels of density, I don't see many collisions amongst MJ dancers either.

And to open a can of worms:

I can't be bothered to find the quotes, but there is certainly a perception, even amongst many WCSers, that the WCS contingent in this country could do a better job of managing their floorcraft. Given the belief that slotted dancing makes for better floorcraft, this is somewhat surprising.

And to scoop those worms out:

My own experience is that for reasonably skilled dancers, attitude probably has more to do with how many collisions you have than anything else. If you are really focussed on making sure you don't bump with people, it is going to happen very rarely (although avoiding accidents moving backwards takes a lot of care and I think we all mess up from time to time). But if you're determined to do a particular move sequence, and think it's up to other people to get out of the way, then collisions are going to happen rather a lot.

FoxyFunkster
29th-March-2009, 09:19 PM
If that's what your slotted dancing looks like, "ur doin it rong".

On the other hand:

In my limited experience of WCS events, the most 'packed' WCS floor doesn't come close to how busy a packed MJ floor is. At comparable levels of density, I don't see many collisions amongst MJ dancers either.

And to open a can of worms:

I can't be bothered to find the quotes, but there is certainly a perception, even amongst many WCSers, that the WCS contingent in this country could do a better job of managing their floorcraft. Given the belief that slotted dancing makes for better floorcraft, this is somewhat surprising.

And to scoop those worms out:

My own experience is that for reasonably skilled dancers, attitude probably has more to do with how many collisions you have than anything else. If you are really focussed on making sure you don't bump with people, it is going to happen very rarely (although avoiding accidents moving backwards takes a lot of care and I think we all mess up from time to time). But if you're determined to do a particular move sequence, and think it's up to other people to get out of the way, then collisions are going to happen rather a lot.


Rest assured at Swing Diego or BBTB on a saturday evening when the dance floor has as many dancing as any MJ weekender dance floor i`ve been to there are definately less chaos going on, I`ve seen a packed Ceroc class have no issues when everyone is dancing slotted then as soon as the freestyle starts it`s a totally different ball game, But like i said floor craft generally should be encouraged as much as any moves or patterns when being taught.

bigdjiver
29th-March-2009, 10:00 PM
:devil: After very occasionally suffering some very poor floor manners by non-dancers I think MJ'ers could be better prepared for the real world if the spare ladies/men randomly wandered through the class carrying drinks. :devil:

NZ Monkey
29th-March-2009, 10:12 PM
In my limited experience of WCS events, the most 'packed' WCS floor doesn't come close to how busy a packed MJ floor is. At comparable levels of density, I don't see many collisions amongst MJ dancers either. MJ is (in my opinion) much easier to dance in a smaller space than WCS is, and because there is no slot it’s easier to move out of the way when someone comes barreling towards you. MJ dancers are used to this kind of chaos, in much the same way as South Koreans don’t seem to have any problems driving (and not dying) on their motorways. Where WCS wins out is in a sort of “floor management” approach, where if everyone is lined up the same way there’s less chance someone will be barreling towards you in the first place.



And to open a can of worms:

I can't be bothered to find the quotes, but there is certainly a perception, even amongst many WCSers, that the WCS contingent in this country could do a better job of managing their floorcraft. Given the belief that slotted dancing makes for better floorcraft, this is somewhat surprising.I find there are points in WCS patterns that are very hard to abort from in a hurry. Specifically once the follower is past me and essentially moving backwards on her own there isn’t a lot I can do to stop her unless she’s already too tense in the arm to be doing it properly….

I think a lot of WCSers, myself included, are too used to dancing in venues where they have the space to not worry about these things too much. I also think that we’re too comfortable with the slot handling half our floorcraft problems, and we’ve gotten lazy.



My own experience is that for reasonably skilled dancers, attitude probably has more to do with how many collisions you have than anything else. If you are really focussed on making sure you don't bump with people, it is going to happen very rarely (although avoiding accidents moving backwards takes a lot of care and I think we all mess up from time to time). But if you're determined to do a particular move sequence, and think it's up to other people to get out of the way, then collisions are going to happen rather a lot.:yeah:

David Franklin
29th-March-2009, 10:43 PM
First, thanks to NZ Monkey for actually trying to answer my questions.


MJ is (in my opinion) much easier to dance in a smaller space than WCS is, and because there is no slot it’s easier to move out of the way when someone comes barreling towards you.Thing is, there are lots of people who dance MJ slotted. Certainly when I dance MJ there is a definite slot. It's just not so definite that I'd crash into someone rather than truncate it (and if I'm continually truncating it, I might well do a 90 degree shift as Gadget describes). To hear people talk, it seems this is something people don't really do in WCS.


MJ dancers are used to this kind of chaos, in much the same way as South Koreans don’t seem to have any problems driving (and not dying) on their motorways. Where WCS wins out is in a sort of “floor management” approach, where if everyone is lined up the same way there’s less chance someone will be barreling towards you in the first place.I agree with all of this. However, there was definitely a recent post about a crowded WCS-only event where there were collisions and the poster felt people needed to concentrate more on floorcraft. To be honest, I find that very surprising, and somewhat disappointing.


I find there are points in WCS patterns that are very hard to abort from in a hurry. Specifically once the follower is past me and essentially moving backwards on her own there isn’t a lot I can do to stop her unless she’s already too tense in the arm to be doing it properly….This is probably a silly question, but why can't you pull your arms in? (Chipmunk arms). Yeah, it looks ugly, but it's better than having her crash into someone. Also (leading to your next point) - if there's not a lot of space, shouldn't you (general) be restricting the travel in your slot?

NZ Monkey
29th-March-2009, 11:19 PM
First, thanks to NZ Monkey for actually trying to answer my questions.Any time :D


Thing is, there are lots of people who dance MJ slotted. Certainly when I dance MJ there is a definite slot. It's just not so definite that I'd crash into someone rather than truncate it (and if I'm continually truncating it, I might well do a 90 degree shift as Gadget describes). To hear people talk, it seems this is something people don't really do in WCS.

snip

This is probably a silly question, but why can't you pull your arms in? (Chipmunk arms). Yeah, it looks ugly, but it's better than having her crash into someone. Also (leading to your next point) - if there's not a lot of space, shouldn't you (general) be restricting the travel in your slot? While a lot of people dance MJ in a slot, the ways it’s lead typically doesn’t require one, and pretty much everyone is used to not dancing in a slot as well. From a floorcraft perspective it’s easier to move a MJ dancer (dancing MJ at least) off the slot to avoid collisions because they’re not as conditioned to travelling down one. This is a double edged sword, as they’re also less likely to head down a slot even when you are leading them in one…. :whistle:

The other, slightly more serious part of my answer, is that the distance between partners is greater in an open position than it typically is in MJ and that the followers are taught to stretch out in the slot against the “post”. Essentially, when the leader has come to end of the patterny parts of most patterns, he sets the couples hands at a fixed point in space and both partners spend the next couple of beats stretching against that point to build connection. That’s the anchor.

In practice, the post is usually set about an arms length ahead of leader, and the follower has a fair bit of room after that to move to the end of the slot. She usually travels further than just the one step back most MJ couples take at the end of their moves. I’d estimate it’s typically about half as far again.

The leader can shorten that post as much as he needs to, but what I find often happens is that the follower doesn’t pick up that something is wrong immediately and continues taking that one-and-a-half steps she’s used to finish the pattern and anchor. This is often about a half a step too far. I’d guess this is because being pulled in tight feels a bit like having the post set, but I’m sure one of the girls will be able to answer that question better.

From the leaders point of view there isn’t much more he can do once the follower is travelling on her unless he can chase her down or somehow, which often isn’t easy to do in a hurry. I’ve found trying to shorten it more by moving backward just has the undesirable effect of pulling her off balance as she’s travelling instead of stopping her.

You could always dance WCS with a shorter distance between the couples all the time, but it looks and feel ridiculous at the kind of tempo’s we usually dance too. And yes - if you're restricted in space you should be restricting your slot more than usual, but as I said before we can get lazy and we're not perfect just like everyone else.

MartinHarper
30th-March-2009, 12:00 AM
Sadly, it's all too easy for me to lose focus on floorcraft when there are a hundred other things pressing for attention.


The leader can shorten that post as much as he needs to, but what I find often happens is that the follower doesn’t pick up that something is wrong immediately and continues taking that one-and-a-half steps she’s used to finish the pattern and anchor. .... I’ve found trying to shorten it more by moving backward just has the undesirable effect of pulling her off balance as she’s travelling instead of stopping her.

Wow. You dance with some really bad followers. If the leader tightens his frame, the follower should match that, not carry on walking backwards on auto-pilot. If the leader pulls the follower's hand away from her, the follower should walk forwards, or stop walking backwards, not lose balance. This is pretty basic stuff. In the end, I'd rather pull a beginner off balance than have her walk into someone.

One thing I find is that if I need to lead my follower forwards in a hurry (or stop her moving back) it's better to do so by rotating rather than travelling. This also avoids issues where, in trying to stop my partner walking backwards into someone, I walk backwards into someone. So, if I am holding my partner's hand in my left hand, I rotate anti-clockwise, which leads my partner towards me. Plus, it's a body lead, so yeay.

timbp
31st-March-2009, 12:27 PM
You dance with some really bad followers.
Maybe you are only dancing with the good followers.

If the leader tightens his frame, the follower should match that, not carry on walking backwards on auto-pilot.

It doesn't always work with the women I dance with. A follower who knows enough about following should match the guys frame/tension. And I have prevented many collisions by increasing tension and shortening how far I allow my partner to step back. I have also avoided collisions by responding to increased tension from my partner.

On the other hand, I have been involved in collisions where I have seen the danger, increased tension/shortened distance, and my partner has responded by bending so she could step back despite my lead.

NZ Monkey
31st-March-2009, 09:35 PM
Wow. You dance with some really bad followers. Strictly speaking yes, although I prefer to call them beginners. It turns out that a significant portion of the population isn’t born with the innate ability to do all this without practice, which is terribly inconsiderate but a reality I just have to deal with for now….. :rollseyes:



If the leader tightens his frame, the follower should match that, not carry on walking backwards on auto-pilot. If the leader pulls the follower's hand away from her, the follower should walk forwards, or stop walking backwards, not lose balance. This is pretty basic stuff. In the end, I'd rather pull a beginner off balance than have her walk into someone.Aside from my last point, I was specifically thinking of a time where I’d pull the post up as short as it can go and the follower keeps travelling past that without noticing that something might be wrong. Sure, the follower should notice, but because the degree of connection varies more (in my experience) in WCS than MJ you actually need a pretty good frame and sensitivity to feel some of these things quickly if they happen at just the wrong moment. We tend to get around that by trying to develop that sensitivity, but that doesn’t happen overnight.

I disagree with your comment that the follower should necessarily stop travelling or start walking the other way if her hand is taken away from her. You might do something similar to lead decelerations or open her body up after a turn for instance*. It sounds good to say that’s what they should do in response to having their hand taken away, but I’m not convinced the answer is that clear-cut.

* To be fair in the cases I’m thinking of “leaving the hand behind” might be a better description. That’s getting very close to splitting hairs though, and although I’m not a follower I imagine it could be reasonably difficult to tell the difference with an unknown leader while pirouetting down the slot at high speeds. Particularly if she’s “very bad”