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View Full Version : Crossing to the dark side...



KatieR
3rd-June-2007, 03:38 AM
Well, it would appear that I am crossing over (yet, not entirely) to the dark side..

I have started learning Lindy, Charleston and Balboa. I never thought I would see the day, however, after going along to a social function a few weeks ago and seeing a young girl, Meral Neiman who teaches these styles, do Lindy in a style that just amazed me. I have never seen Lindy done like this.

I would go as far as saying she is like the Tatiana of Lindy. Beautiful smooth moves, executed perfectly. Not loud, uncoordinated, spirit fingers Lindy.

West Coast is still my first love, but seeing as I don't have access to good West Coast Swing in Adelaide (except myself of course :D ) and these guys have weekenders, workshops all sorts of stuff, learning from Meral might give me a bit more technical skill.

They also have a lot more social events to go to. I guess, you have to adapt or die.

Andy McGregor
3rd-June-2007, 02:55 PM
I would go as far as saying she is like the Tatiana of Lindy. Beautiful smooth moves, executed perfectly. Not loud, uncoordinated, spirit fingers Lindy.I think this is Dean Collins style Lindy. If we had that in our area I'd be going to classes too. It's a lovely style of Lindy with none of those big, loud, showy, etc, moves that discourage me from attending the few regular Lindy classes that are on offer in the South East of England :tears:

Robert & Clare Austin are teaching their Hollywood Swing workshops with the Dean Collins styling. AFAIK they are the only people teaching this style in the UK. I've done their one-day workshop but there was nowhere to go after that :tears:

DJ Andy
3rd-June-2007, 10:45 PM
I think this is Dean Collins style Lindy. If we had that in our area I'd be going to classes too. It's a lovely style of Lindy with none of those big, loud, showy, etc, moves that discourage me from attending the few regular Lindy classes that are on offer in the South East of England :tears:



Well what's wrong with learning 'Lindy' whatever style it is and then adapting and fine tuning it to the style you think suits you or looks 'cool' (whatever that means!) exactly the same as everyone does with MJ?:wink:

Andy McGregor
4th-June-2007, 01:18 AM
Well what's wrong with learning 'Lindy' whatever style it is and then adapting and fine tuning it to the style you think suits you or looks 'cool' (whatever that means!) exactly the same as everyone does with MJ?:wink:My time is precious. I'd like to learn the style I'm intrested in. I've got no intention of going to a Lindy class teaching a style I think is rubbish so I can adapt it to a style I think is right.

Yliander
4th-June-2007, 07:57 AM
Well, it would appear that I am crossing over (yet, not entirely) to the dark side..

I have started learning Lindy, Charleston and Balboa.
Not so much "crossing to the dark side" as returning to your roots

KatieR
4th-June-2007, 10:07 AM
I think this is Dean Collins style Lindy. If we had that in our area I'd be going to classes too. It's a lovely style of Lindy with none of those big, loud, showy, etc, moves that discourage me from attending the few regular Lindy classes that are on offer in the South East of England :tears:

Robert & Clare Austin are teaching their Hollywood Swing workshops with the Dean Collins styling. AFAIK they are the only people teaching this style in the UK. I've done their one-day workshop but there was nowhere to go after that :tears:

Finally I have something you guys don't!! I feel special... :D


My time is precious. I'd like to learn the style I'm intrested in. I've got no intention of going to a Lindy class teaching a style I think is rubbish so I can adapt it to a style I think is right.

I agree, between learning Tango, teaching Modern Jive and basic West Coast swing, work and I will be starting a diploma for work soon as well, I have to choose carefully what I learn. Plus to degree, I think it takes to see someone dance in a way you really love to be inspired to learn.


Not so much "crossing to the dark side" as returning to your roots

Too true! I figure, I can learn technique and style from Meral and be good at those styles, I am hugely impressed by Balboa, and then adapt some of it into my West Coast.

MartinHarper
4th-June-2007, 04:55 PM
I'd tend to avoid making assumptions based on "X-style Lindy" vs "Lindy". Lindy culture has moved away from X-style prefixes anyway, back towards styling as a personal choice.


Not loud, uncoordinated, spirit fingers Lindy.

I'm curious - what do you mean by "spirit fingers"?


I think it takes seeing someone dance in a way you really love to be inspired to learn.

Yeah, that.

Andy McGregor
4th-June-2007, 06:50 PM
I'm curious - what do you mean by "spirit fingers"?I knew exactly what she meant. And so did Mr Harper, he's just being daft.

I can't comment on where Lindy Hop has moved to. Whenever I look it seems the same. Bottom out chicken impressions, clapping, weird jazz-hands (which could be the "spirit hand" thing) and runaway train footwork. Apart from the odd "Dean Collins" style dancer that is. It took years for Lindy Hop to make it to the UK, maybe it'll take a bit longer before these shores see the latest change that Mr Harper tell us about.

Before people think I've got something against Lindy Hop I'd like to say that I think it's a fine dance - I just object to Lindy Hoppers trying to HiJack my MJ nights by compaining I don't play enough music for them :confused:

MartinHarper
4th-June-2007, 09:54 PM
I knew exactly what she meant. And so did Mr Harper, he's just being daft.

Well I know what loud and uncoordinated means, but I'm genuinely foxed by "spirit fingers".


Maybe it'll take a bit longer before these shores see the latest change that Mr Harper tell us about.

All the UK Lindy weekenders I've been to have offered classes in "Lindy Hop" rather than "X-style Lindy Hop". Same with my local instructors. The whole Savoy versus Hollywood debate seems historical, rather than current. The only exception I can think of off-hand is Ryan and Jenny's "Camp Savoy", which has a historical feel in its advertising.


... apart from the odd "Dean Collins" style dancer that is ...

I'd be interested to hear if these folks identify themselves as "Dean Collins" style dancers, or if this is your label for them. The culture might be different in your area.

Andy McGregor
5th-June-2007, 12:30 AM
I'd be interested to hear if these folks identify themselves as "Dean Collins" style dancers, or if this is your label for them. The culture might be different in your area.For a know-it-all, especially-about-Lindy, Mr Harper seems to know little and guess much. Pronouncing his guesses as the only true way. Visit this (http://www.londonswingcats.com/Hollywood%20Style.htm) link and read.

MartinHarper
5th-June-2007, 01:14 AM
Visit this (http://www.londonswingcats.com/Hollywood%20Style.htm) link and read.

Thanks. You said earlier that Robert+Claire Austin teach Hollywood Style Lindy, and I appreciate the link to their site.

You've described how you see many Lindy dancers dancing in a way that contains "bottom out chicken impressions, clapping, weird jazz-hands, and runaway train footwork", while there are a few Lindy dancers whose dancing you find more agreeable.
Do you find that the few Lindy dancers you like watching all learnt under Robert+Claire, and consider themselves Dean Collins Style dancers (or Hollywood, Smooth, whatever)?
Alternatively, do you recognise their dancing as being in Hollywood Style Lindy, whereas the dancers themselves may not use that term, and just think of themselves as Lindy dancers?

As I said, my experience has been the second one, but it sounds like things are different around London, perhaps because of Robert and Claire?

Andy McGregor
5th-June-2007, 01:31 AM
Thanks. You said earlier that Robert+Claire Austin teach Hollywood Style Lindy, and I appreciate the link to their site.

You've described how you see many Lindy dancers dancing in a way that contains "bottom out chicken impressions, clapping, weird jazz-hands, and runaway train footwork", while there are a few Lindy dancers whose dancing you find more agreeable.
Do you find that the few Lindy dancers you like watching all learnt under Robert+Claire, and consider themselves Dean Collins Style dancers (or Hollywood, Smooth, whatever)?
Alternatively, do you recognise their dancing as being in Hollywood Style Lindy, whereas the dancers themselves may not use that term, and just think of themselves as Lindy dancers?

As I said, my experience has been the second one, but it sounds like things are different around London, perhaps because of Robert and Claire?I don't have a great deal of experience as a Lindy dancer. I've seen a fair bit though. The Jiving Lindy Hoppers, Andy & Rena and other Lindy dancers whose names I forget, mostly around London. With the exception of Robert and Clare the others look like they're putting on a show - which they usually are. I've seen some bad Lindy too. It's like a messy version of the OTT stuff I've seen the experts do. As far as I've observed there is nothing to tempt me to take up Lindy as a social dance - expecially when you consider the music it is danced to.

As I've said, I'd love to learn the smooth style Lindy. But there really is nowhere to learn it in my area :tears: And, even if I did learn it, where would I go to do it?

But, by far the worst thing about Lindy is the attitude I've observed that many Lindy dancers have towards MJ (not Andy & Rena :flower: ). Patronising is the nicest way to describe it.

Minnie M
5th-June-2007, 07:24 AM
From recent gossip/comments - I thought "Dark Side" was the new name for "Ceroc" :blush:

Andy McGregor
5th-June-2007, 07:43 AM
From recent gossip/comments - I thought "Dark Side" was the new name for "Ceroc" :blush:
:yeah:

However, I think that Ceroc would be better described as the "Dark Empire" :whistle:

I'm waiting for the day that Ceroc teachers are issued with shiny white armour ....

straycat
5th-June-2007, 09:04 AM
A couple of observations here:

'Savoy Style' generally refers to the kind of stuff you see in the Hellzapoppin (http://youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY)' clip, or the kind of stuff the JLH will perform.

'Dean Collins style' is another term for 'Hollywood style' - another variant being 'LA style' - and these are all regarded as smoother styles of the dance. Dean Collins has also been deemed the 'father' of WCS, though he apparently wasn't keen on that label.

Warren from the JLH is of the opinion that the smoother styles of Lindy (which we, for example, favour) aren't in fact Lindy, but are actually closer to WCS in its original form. The JLH are a supremely authentic group in what they do, and their performance style goes right back to the Hellzapoppin' era.

Lindy continues to evolve, like everything else - some people like this fact, some purists don't, but very few are now in a position to say what's really 'authentic', and what isn't - if only because most of the surviving archive footage is of performances, not of social dance, and there's a world of difference between the two.

Like many, I was originally put off by the chicken impressions, bad music, et al. It took a lot to convince me that good Lindy had none of that - and that the 'bad music' was down to ignorance on the part of the first swing DJs that I came across - there's a world of astoundingly beautiful swing music out there, as I'm slowly discovering. And more and more, good lindy teaching is starting to come into its own here, so with luck, the days of bad chicken impressions are numbered.

A saying of Dean Collins that I love was that there were: ''only two kinds of swing dancing: good and bad."

Andy McGregor
5th-June-2007, 09:17 AM
A couple of observations here:

'Savoy Style' generally refers to the kind of stuff you see in the Hellzapoppin (http://youtube.com/watch?v=mTg5V2oA_hY)' clip, or the kind of stuff the JLH will perform.

'Dean Collins style' is another term for 'Hollywood style' - another variant being 'LA style' - and these are all regarded as smoother styles of the dance. Dean Collins has also been deemed the 'father' of WCS, though he apparently wasn't keen on that label.

Warren from the JLH is of the opinion that the smoother styles of Lindy (which we, for example, favour) aren't in fact Lindy, but are actually closer to WCS in its original form. The JLH are a supremely authentic group in what they do, and their performance style goes right back to the Hellzapoppin' era.

Lindy continues to evolve, like everything else - some people like this fact, some purists don't, but very few are now in a position to say what's really 'authentic', and what isn't - if only because most of the surviving archive footage is of performances, not of social dance, and there's a world of difference between the two.

Like many, I was originally put off by the chicken impressions, bad music, et al. It took a lot to convince me that good Lindy had none of that - and that the 'bad music' was down to ignorance on the part of the first swing DJs that I came across - there's a world of astoundingly beautiful swing music out there, as I'm slowly discovering. And more and more, good lindy teaching is starting to come into its own here, so with luck, the days of bad chicken impressions are numbered.

A saying of Dean Collins that I love was that there were: ''only two kinds of swing dancing: good and bad."

:yeah:

I'd give you some rep but I need to spread it around a bit :flower:

KatieR
6th-June-2007, 01:52 AM
I knew exactly what she meant. And so did Mr Harper, he's just being daft.

I can't comment on where Lindy Hop has moved to. Whenever I look it seems the same. Bottom out chicken impressions, clapping, weird jazz-hands (which could be the "spirit hand" thing) and runaway train footwork. :

yes, that is what I was referring to also see movie "Bring it on".


I don't have a great deal of experience as a Lindy dancer. I've seen a fair bit though. The Jiving Lindy Hoppers, Andy & Rena and other Lindy dancers whose names I forget, mostly around London. With the exception of Robert and Clare the others look like they're putting on a show - which they usually are. I've seen some bad Lindy too. It's like a messy version of the OTT stuff I've seen the experts do. As far as I've observed there is nothing to tempt me to take up Lindy as a social dance - expecially when you consider the music it is danced to.


I think this is pretty much, up until know, what my experience of Lindy has been like. To tell you the truth, I don't known and haven't really understood specific differences of Hollywood Lindy vs Savoy or whatever its called. I'm still learning.



Like many, I was originally put off by the chicken impressions, bad music, et al. It took a lot to convince me that good Lindy had none of that - and that the 'bad music' was down to ignorance on the part of the first swing DJs that I came across - there's a world of astoundingly beautiful swing music out there, as I'm slowly discovering. And more and more, good lindy teaching is starting to come into its own here, so with luck, the days of bad chicken impressions are numbered.

A saying of Dean Collins that I love was that there were: ''only two kinds of swing dancing: good and bad."

great post... helped me understand a bit more about it. It was the chicken impressions and gigham jumpsuits I think that put me off... I'm now slowly starting to build up a swing music collection, and now that I am learning how to dance well to it it makes it even better. And that you don't need to look like a farmer in Ronald McDonald shoes to do it!

Lindy purists will probably hate me, but hey, I don't care.


:yeah:

I'd give you some rep but I need to spread it around a bit :flower:

I did it for you.. :D

straycat
6th-June-2007, 09:08 AM
Lindy purists will probably hate me, but hey, I don't care.


Unlikely :)
Anyway - offhand, I know very few Lindy purists... and most of the ones I have met believe that you should dance it in a way that suits you, even if they themselves want to retain the old culture / style.

Even Frankie, who has far more right to be a complete purist than anyone else I've met, simply says that Lindy is nothing more than a way of dancing to Swing music, and that it has no set 'moves'. As someone who helped shape the dance in its early days, he should know.

Funnily enough - a lot of the stuff that people here object to about the dance, actually comes from other dances (eg Charleston)

Anyway - welcome to the fold! It's always good to see another convert :flower:
(just started learning Balboa myself this weekend ... it's a fantastic dance :awe:)

KatieR
7th-June-2007, 12:39 AM
Funnily enough - a lot of the stuff that people here object to about the dance, actually comes from other dances (eg Charleston)

Anyway - welcome to the fold! It's always good to see another convert :flower:
(just started learning Balboa myself this weekend ... it's a fantastic dance :awe:)

Don't feel so bad now :D Thanks !

Balboa is my favourite of the swing dances, especially when you watch a couple doing amazing Lindy then switch to Balboa in the perfect spot in the song then back to Lindy as the music calls for it. It's just incredible.

For something that looks so simple, it's really quite difficult, especially with the body lead and closeness it requires to be done successfully :respect: