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Caro
24th-May-2007, 10:54 PM
A question that has been bothering me for a while. I've read a few times (ok, mainly on wcs related sites) about how important it is for dancers to feel the pulse of the music and express it in their musical interpretation.

I am not sure I understand what is meant exactly by pulse... and then how it can be used in dancing.

I'm assuming it has to be a bit more than just the beat, right ? Something to do with the feel of the music may be ?

Is this a musicians' term ?

Not sure if that should be here or in the DJ's booth, as I am interested both in understanding what it is in the music, but also obviously how to apply it when dancing.

Anybody care to enlighten me ? :flower:

David Franklin
24th-May-2007, 11:23 PM
A question that has been bothering me for a while. I've read a few times (ok, mainly on wcs related sites) about how important it is for dancers to feel the pulse of the music and express it in their musical interpretation.

I am not sure I understand what is meant exactly by pulse... and then how it can be used in dancing.

I'm assuming it has to be a bit more than just the beat, right ? Something to do with the feel of the music may be ?

Is this a musicians' term ?

Not sure if that should be here or in the DJ's booth, as I am interested both in understanding what it is in the music, but also obviously how to apply it when dancing.

Anybody care to enlighten me ? :flower:The definitive WCS definition would seem to be (from Skippy Blair's Dance Dictionary (http://www.wcs-dancer.com/SkippyBlairDanceDictionary.html))


PULSING -

(1) A Rhythmic contraction in the body that feels like you are the heart beat of the dance. (2) A regularly recurring accent. (3) To accent all of the Upbeats or accent all of the Downbeats in a specific dance. (4) Swing dances PULSE the Upbeat. Cha-Cha breaks on "2" & “6” - but PULSES the Downbeat.

which tallies with my personal understanding. So here (at least from the examples), the "pulse" is a slower rhythm than the main beat.

On t'other hand, I have seen other people define "pulse" as subdivisions of the main beat (i.e. faster rhythm). And at least one article from Skippy Blair which sounds like it is talking about the pulse as subdivisions as well.

[Personal confession: I often find Skippy's definitions confusing - I'm left at the end thinking "Yes, but I still don't know what you actually mean by pulse" (or swing, or CPB, or ...)]

Caro
24th-May-2007, 11:28 PM
[Personal confession: I often find Skippy's definitions confusing - I'm left at the end thinking "Yes, but I still don't know what you actually mean by pulse" (or swing, or CPB, or ...)]

well that's exactly where I am as well. I have read that definition (several times ) but still don't think I understand the concept of 'pulsing'. :what:

Is that something you need to see in action to understand ?

David Franklin
25th-May-2007, 12:09 AM
well that's exactly where I am as well. I have read that definition (several times ) but still don't think I understand the concept of 'pulsing'. :what: To my very limited understanding, it's basically thinking of the count (in WCS) as "one TWO, three and FOUR, five and SIX" (or "one TWO, three and FOUR, five SIX, seven and EIGHT"). So you are trying to put a little more emphasis (sharpness) on your movement on the upbeats compared to the down beats. Somewhat based on my one Skippy class (on critical timing), I tend to think of it as making certain you are precisely on the beat for the upbeats, while being more able to "go with the flow" for the downbeats.

For MJ, I think it's pretty automatic to pulse on "ONE two THREE four FIVE six SEVEN eight". (I'm tempted to say the problem with MJ is that it is all pulse and no inbetween movements).


Is that something you need to see in action to understand ?I have to say I don't find it at all obvious in action. If you look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=719FucXtHhE&mode=related&search=) routine by J/T, and look at the beginning of the "Bei Mir Bist Du Schon" section. I think you can see "pulsing" there that emphasises the upbeats. But the fact I had to search through several clips to find something vaguely convincing (and that I can find others where all the highlights seem to fall on the odd counts, at least to my eyes) shows that it's a lot more subtle than Skippy might imply.

I admit I'm glad to see it's not just me who finds Skippy's definitions etc. confusing!

straycat
25th-May-2007, 12:20 AM
I'd be intrigued to know just what he means as well. I think I know, but am hard-pressed to articulate it.

Something to throw into the mix. Some tracks (eg - the rather sultry and gorgeous Blues Nocturne (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWlDha4rGMU)) have a heartbeat-style double-pulse throughout, and that's what I'd endeavour to treat as 'the pulse' of a track like that. Is this what Skippy means? Or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

David Franklin
25th-May-2007, 12:21 AM
I'd be intrigued to know just what he means as well.For info, Skippy Blair is a she. (And 80-something years old).

NZ Monkey
25th-May-2007, 12:29 AM
[Personal confession: I often find Skippy's definitions confusing - I'm left at the end thinking "Yes, but I still don't know what you actually mean by pulse" (or swing, or CPB, or ...)]And here was me wondering if I was the only one.....:confused:

NZ Monkey breathes a sigh of relief

straycat
25th-May-2007, 07:15 AM
For info, Skippy Blair is a she. (And 80-something years old).

where's my proofreading team when I need 'em?
:whistle:

bigdjiver
25th-May-2007, 09:11 AM
....If you look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=719FucXtHhE&mode=related&search=) routine by J/T... Can anybody identify 1st track that they dance to?


... I have to say I don't find it at all obvious in action. If you look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=719FucXtHhE&mode=related&search=) routine by J/T, and look at the beginning of the "Bei Mir Bist Du Schon" section. I think you can see "pulsing" there that emphasises the upbeats. But the fact I had to search through several clips to find something vaguely convincing (and that I can find others where all the highlights seem to fall on the odd counts, at least to my eyes) shows that it's a lot more subtle than Skippy might imply...It will probably get me burnt at the stake but on this last section I felt very disconnected between what the music was saying to me and the choreography, a mismatch between the mood and the movement.

David Franklin
25th-May-2007, 09:31 AM
Can anybody identify 1st track that they dance to?I'm pretty sure Sheepman plays it, so he should know.


It will probably get me burnt at the stake but on this last section I felt very disconnected between what the music was saying to me and the choreography, a mismatch between the mood and the movement.I wouldn't put it that strongly, but I don't entirely disagree. Reading between the lines of a few comments at the time, I think there was actually a feeling that the choreography for this was "overperformed". J/T are projecting out to the audience very strongly with a piece of music that doesn't really suit it. (I think it's the only routine they've done at the US Open and not won).

Caro
25th-May-2007, 09:50 AM
I have to say I don't find it at all obvious in action. If you look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=719FucXtHhE&mode=related&search=) routine by J/T, and look at the beginning of the "Bei Mir Bist Du Schon" section. I think you can see "pulsing" there that emphasises the upbeats.

well I watched it... and watched it... but to be honest I think I fail to see it... If anything I would have said that I could sort of see something that may be was pulsing, but at the very beginning of the routine. :confused:



For MJ, I think it's pretty automatic to pulse on "ONE two THREE four FIVE six SEVEN eight". (I'm tempted to say the problem with MJ is that it is all pulse and no inbetween movements).


However that comment kinda made a lot of sense, and I think made me understand better what it is... (although I think we'd agree it doesn't look good in that example, and is probably the premise of... bouncing)


.... I think there was actually a feeling that the choreography for this was "overperformed". J/T are projecting out to the audience very strongly with a piece of music that doesn't really suit it.

:yeah: After watching that vid, it made me realise how their routines have evolved and are a lot less 'in your face' now... Tatiana now constantly hammers that 'less is more' when she teaches fancy syncopations and variations...

Chef
25th-May-2007, 10:11 AM
Can anybody identify 1st track that they dance to?


It sounds like Cleos Mood by Junior Walker.

David Franklin
25th-May-2007, 10:16 AM
It sounds like Cleos Mood by Junior Walker.I'm sure you're right - it was on the tip of my tongue!

David Franklin
25th-May-2007, 10:20 AM
well I watched it... and watched it... but to be honest I think I fail to see it... If anything I would have said that I could sort of see something that may be was pulsing, but at the very beginning of the routine. :confused: In the first bit I see a fair bit of emphasis on the downbeat too, and that always throws me off. I think I struggle with this because to a MJ dancer it is so natural to look for emphasis on the downbeat.

But I'm certainly not going to argue the point. I really don't see it as this "uber-important" concept that makes/breaks a performance for me. Given the multiple :confused: comments on here, I'm not alone. To be honest, although it may be my ignorance speaking, I do feel there's an element of "emperor's new clothes" about a lot of this.

CJ
25th-May-2007, 10:24 AM
Q:

could this not be an inernal, as opposed to exernal, thing. I don't WCS, but I do dance to the music. Often, I can be leading to various instruments, and feel my partner with me: but how often does this look any different to standard on the beat MJ?:confused:

The difference is in how it feels, not always how it looks.:confused: :confused:

Then again, it might just be Emperor's new clothes...:rofl:

David Franklin
25th-May-2007, 10:34 AM
The difference is in how it feels, not always how it looks.:confused: :confused: Not according to Skippy.


I ask people to point out their favorite HUSTLE dancer. I get different responses, but those selected are always the ones where you can PULSE the dance to the music.

Watch your favorite Hustle dancer. I can think of several that are a delight to watch. Maria Torres - Deborah Hampton - Lori Bradshaw - Martin Parker. Don't try to figure out what they are counting. Each one of those people has a built in "Pulse." Their bodies respond to the music. They are artists in their own right. Their bodies take over when the music starts and they are DRIVEN by the beat of the music. Figure out what their body is doing by counting only the beats of the music. All Hustle music has definite "Sets of 8" beats of music. Find the "8's". Just count the music, emphasizing the Upbeats. Count: "One TWO Three FOUR Five SIX Seven EIGHT." You will find that the dancer's body emphasizes that count.

(There's an even stronger quote but I can't find it. Basically along the lines of "When a couple dancers technically well but onlookers find it boring, chances are the dancers didn't pulse to the music").

N.B. Harping on what Skippy says probably seems a little odd if you don't know that she is essentially "God" to an awful lot of WCS dancers.

Caro
25th-May-2007, 10:54 AM
Not according to Skippy.



... about HUSTLE dancers..


(There's an even stronger quote but I can't find it. Basically along the lines of "When a couple dancers technically well but onlookers find it boring, chances are the dancers didn't pulse to the music").


well I don't know anything about hustle really except having watched a few comp not long ago, but again, 'pulsing' kind of makes more sense to me in that context, where even if you know nothing about the dance, you can see that there is some sort of 'hiccough' that seems inherent to the dance (is it every 3 beats or so?).

In WCS, where the movement is smoother and more continous, I still fail to 'see' it, if it wasn't for some strong upbeats being clearly emphasised.

As to how this applies to MJ... I'd say my natural tendency (well, it is in my head, doesn't mean it is happening in my body) would actually be to reduce the 'constant pulsing on the downbeat' (as you described it earlier DF) throughout the dance to make it smoother, and only emphasis it in certain key points of the music (first '1' of a new major phrase, some others '1' and '5'). But again, this might not be what is meant by 'pulsing'. :confused:

straycat
25th-May-2007, 11:04 AM
Q:

could this not be an inernal, as opposed to exernal, thing. I don't WCS, but I do dance to the music. Often, I can be leading to various instruments, and feel my partner with me: but how often does this look any different to standard on the beat MJ?:confused:

I think it is - something that's felt by both dancers, that is communicated by the connection, but not necessarily seen by any onlookers. Watching the Cleo's Mood section of that clip, I see suggestions of where I feel the pulse to be - but th chief way it comes across is in how wonderfully in tune they are to the music.



The difference is in how it feels, not always how it looks.:confused: :confused:

Absolutely - but how it does have a huge effect on how it looks - but as an indirect, rather than a direct effect.

David Franklin
25th-May-2007, 12:11 PM
well I don't know anything about hustle really except having watched a few comp not long ago, but again, 'pulsing' kind of makes more sense to me in that context, where even if you know nothing about the dance, you can see that there is some sort of 'hiccough' that seems inherent to the dance (is it every 3 beats or so?).Hustle is "odd" in that the basic steps are 3 beats long, even though it's danced to 4/4 music. So if you count it as you dance, you get "&123 &123 ...", where each '1' falls at a different point in the bar. Alternatively, if you count it musically it goes "&123 &412 &341 &234 &123". Hence the 'hiccough' every 3 counts.

But to my understanding, that's not what Skippy means by pulsing here. She is saying that although your steps are governed by this 3 count, your emphasis (pulsing) should be governed by the upbeats (2 counts). So you would be dancing "&123 &412 &341 &234 &123".

It's a particular issue in Hustle because of the "3 count basic" which goes against the normal 4/4 pattern of upbeats and downbeats. In WCS pulsing somewhat "happens for free", because the structure of the moves already emphases the even count in some ways.

Disclaimer: my understanding of hustle is more than a little rudimentary - I've certainly never danced it.

In MJ terms, the closest analogy I can think of is repeatedly dancing an odd count (Ceroc count) move, and trying to emphasise the '1' of every bar. Then the points in the move where the '1' falls will keep changing.


In WCS, where the movement is smoother and more continous, I still fail to 'see' it, if it wasn't for some strong upbeats being clearly emphasised. I don't particularly disagree. I found a couple of sections of J/T's dancing where I think you could say "they are pulsing to the upbeat". But I think you could equally say "they are emphasising some strong upbeats". In particular, I only see it for short sections, whereas from the way Skippy writes about it, I feel you should see it throughout the entire dance.


As to how this applies to MJ... I'd say my natural tendency (well, it is in my head, doesn't mean it is happening in my body) would actually be to reduce the 'constant pulsing on the downbeat' (as you described it earlier DF) throughout the dance to make it smoother, and only emphasis it in certain key points of the music (first '1' of a new major phrase, some others '1' and '5'). But again, this might not be what is meant by 'pulsing'. :confused:This all tallies with how I think about it (including, sadly the "this might not be what is meant by 'pulsing'. :confused:" bit...)

robd
25th-May-2007, 12:18 PM
Tatiana now constantly hammers that 'less is more'

Not following her own advice then....:wink:

Caro
25th-May-2007, 12:20 PM
But to my understanding, that's not what Skippy means by pulsing here. She is saying that although your steps are governed by this 3 count, your emphasis (pulsing) should be governed by the upbeats (2 counts). So you would be dancing "&123 &412 &341 &234 &123".


cheers for that - that makes sense in fact, I guess because of the structure of the dance in question. I'll endeavour to look for some hustle clips and try and see if I can actually see it. Shame I don't particularly like the dance though (or the music for that matter :what: )

But I guess this must be a really interesting (and from where I am, challenging) thing to try and practice if you know hustle.

David Franklin
25th-May-2007, 12:29 PM
cheers for that - that makes sense in fact, I guess because of the structure of the dance in question. I'll endeavour to look for some hustle clips and try and see if I can actually see it. Shame I don't particularly like the dance though (or the music for that matter :what: )Note that another thing with Hustle is that a lot of the music doesn't actually have much of a difference between the upbeats and the downbeats. How that fits in with the whole "pulse the upbeats" argument I don't really know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it means you don't actually see it happen much for that genre of music.

DavidY
29th-May-2007, 08:36 PM
Heard an interesting track to dance to the other day:
"Here comes the sun" by The Beatles (although I think this was a cover).

I found the bit with the triplet rhythm ("Sun, sun, sun, here we come...") very tricky to dance to. Even though the underlying tempo continues unchanged (I think) finding the pulse is tricky.

Caro
5th-June-2007, 06:21 PM
I took the opportunity to ask Jordan about this last weekend.

Here's his answer in a few words for the few other people interested:

Pulsing the music should be done to emphasis the upbeat, and is about stretching your center on the upbeat. Stretching, and not lifting, which seems to be a common mistake when people try and do it.

He then showed me what it looks like to dance 'flat' (i.e. one step after another, no movement of the center) and dance while pulsing, stretching his center on then even counts. I have to say it looked very obvious when he did it, and I now understand how it can make a whole difference to your dancing. As to be able to do it... :sick: :sick: :sick:

I suspect this is also strongly related to 'lingering' on the upbeat with your footwork (Robert Royston's 'half half hold', see here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/land-1000-dances/9651-wcs-timing-swing-timing-2.html#post367980) and previous posts on that thread), although Jordan didn't mention it (it was just a short explanation and I didn't think about asking that at the time).

is that of any help... ?

ducasi
5th-June-2007, 06:47 PM
Jordan mentioned in their last workshop at Southport that they would cover "pulse", but never mentioned it again.

They did talk about slowing down and speeding up (relative to the beat) for extra dramatic effect, which seems to tie in a bit with what Caro has just said above, but perhaps they didn't get round to an actual discussion of it in the time they had.

Caro
5th-June-2007, 06:55 PM
They did talk about slowing down and speeding up (relative to the beat) for extra dramatic effect, which seems to tie in a bit with what Caro has just said above, but perhaps they didn't get round to an actual discussion of it in the time they had.

could be, but I'm not sure as what I understood was that it should be done pretty much all through the track, and doesn't add dramatic effect - just depth (relief, as in a map in relief vs flat) to a dance. It is something that dancers do independently of each other (without affecting the connection - although as with anything that comes from your center I suspect it could be felt by the connection gods)

ducasi
5th-June-2007, 07:35 PM
could be, but I'm not sure as what I understood was that it should be done pretty much all through the track, and doesn't add dramatic effect - just depth (relief, as in a map in relief vs flat) to a dance. It is something that dancers do independently of each other (without affecting the connection - although as with anything that comes from your center I suspect it could be felt by the connection gods)
Indeed – I should have made clear in my post that J&T were talking about breaks, where you might want the "extra dramatic effect". In WCS and MJ, as you know well, stretching and compressing beats add greatly to the "depth" of the dance, though I'd say in MJ it's probably harder for the dancers to adjust their timing independently, as I believe MJ usually needs a more continuous connection that WCS.

mick
7th-June-2007, 12:29 PM
The definitive WCS definition would seem to be (from Skippy Blair's Dance Dictionary (http://www.wcs-dancer.com/SkippyBlairDanceDictionary.html))



Quote:
PULSING -

(1) A Rhythmic contraction in the body that feels like you are the heart beat of the dance. (2) A regularly recurring accent. (3) To accent all of the Upbeats or accent all of the Downbeats in a specific dance. (4) Swing dances PULSE the Upbeat. Cha-Cha breaks on "2" & “6” - but PULSES the Downbeat.


That sounds like what I do on the bog.

straycat
7th-June-2007, 12:41 PM
That sounds like what I do on the bog.

Plonk.

Caro
19th-October-2007, 04:08 PM
Given that I'm a very lucky girl and had the opportunity to have a private with Skippy and ask her directly what's pulsing, I thought I would post here some explanation and thoughts for the few people interested.

So, as was mentioned in this thread, pulsing (in WCS) is about 'pulsing the upbeats' and making obvious by your body movement that your dancing is emphasising those beats. It creates relief or even 'life' in your movement (hence the impression that the music flows through your body) compared to dancing 'flat' without pulsing.

Specifically, as I was dancing, she told me to 'straighten both legs' on the 2, 4, 6 and 8. Now this might have something to do with my way of dancing at that particular time and moving my own body, and it could be that other people 'pulse' differently.

As I posted before, Jordan's explanation was 'stretch your center without lifting it' (looks a bit like a deep breath but your shoulders stay level).

I am now also convinced that this relates to Robert Royston's explanation of rhythm using 'half half hoooold', the 'hold' part being on the upbeats.

So to be practical and in summary, so far, pulsing can be done via:
- stretching your center
- straightening both your legs
- lingering on the upbeats (footwork).

And, in WCS, is done on the upbeats.

tanjive
20th-October-2007, 06:13 PM
I would like to ask Caro with this extra insight from Skippy how you would think to apply this to MJ? Just emphasing beats 1, 5 or the upbeats 2, 4, 6, and 8.

Caro
20th-October-2007, 06:38 PM
I would like to ask Caro with this extra insight from Skippy how you would think to apply this to MJ? Just emphasing beats 1, 5 or the upbeats 2, 4, 6, and 8.

To give you an honest answer, I would need to try and apply pulsing in my MJ... which I haven't danced yet since I came back. I will try and let you know... But my gutt feel is that most of the pulsing in MJ will happen on the downbeats (that's when there is most movement (step) in MJ, whereas we tend to have little or no movement on the upbeats). So if the dance suggests pulsing the downbeats when the music would suggest pulsing the upbeats (they tend to be stronger), that could be weird.
Any dance gods care to comment on that ?

Dave Hancock
20th-October-2007, 07:32 PM
If only dancing on every second beat then pulsing becomes redundant in my opinion and thus it would look a little peculiar if you tried to pulse in modern jive.

Generally most dances are enhanced when you pulse the upbeat with only a few really pulsing the downbeat such as cha cha and rhumba.

Caro
20th-October-2007, 11:02 PM
If only dancing on every second beat then pulsing becomes redundant in my opinion and thus it would look a little peculiar if you tried to pulse in modern jive.


what if you pulsed every other beat you dance, i.e. in an MJ context the 1s and the 5s ? They are accented in the music most of the time...

Dave Hancock
21st-October-2007, 01:20 PM
Try it sometime, given the lack of body movement on the upbeats though I reckon you would end up looking somewhat stacato and that it'd look kinda weird!

Can try next weekend if you want.