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Swinging bee
21st-May-2007, 02:18 PM
I was wondering if the world of Ballroom have accepted modern jive?, something I heard at the weekend would suggest that they have not.
Apparently It's all about structure, set footwork ,teach-ability, exams and all that goes on within the whole ethos. I dunno really much about it . does anyone?. Has anyone had any experiences?

Sparkles
21st-May-2007, 02:20 PM
Maybe you could explain a bit more about what you're tryng to find out, please? :flower:

Lee Bartholomew
21st-May-2007, 02:23 PM
Thing is with Ballroom, everyone sets out to get an Ideal and therefore they all dance the same.

With modern Jive, most people set out to be different and have their own style.

Don't know if this helps with what you are after but thought I would put it anyway.

robd
21st-May-2007, 02:34 PM
I was wondering if the world of Ballroom have accepted modern jive?

Accepted in what way?

I'd guess MJ is no more or less accepted in the ballroom world (whatever that might be :confused: ) than WCS or Lindy Hop.

Spiky Steve
21st-May-2007, 02:45 PM
I think there would be a difference between organisers and the dancers.

Friends of mine have done a cabaret at a ballroom event.

Steve

Paul F
21st-May-2007, 03:15 PM
Ah! Interesting thread.

This is a topic that I have been investigating myself.

During the last couple of years I have been asking people on the ballroom circuit what they think about MJ. I have probably asked about a dozen people, both dancers and coaches alike. I too was interested what people thought of MJ.
More or less the response has been - "Whats that" :rolleyes:

Those that have heard of it know it as "Ceroc" (whether thats good or bad i dont know).
I cant exactly remember what people said word for word but I do remember that most of the comments were similar in that they were happy it got people interested in dance.

The thing is, this was the dancers and coaches I was asking. There may well be a change of heart when asking studio owners and operators or event organisers. Im guessing here but, from the feedback I have had, it seems that the coaches dont feel threatened by MJ as they are now busier than they have ever been - well a lot of them anyway.

If there is no perceived threat then I cant see why they would take offence to it.

As for a unified ballroom approach, such as from the ISTD etc, I cant really comment. You would have to contact them directly.

Paul F
21st-May-2007, 03:16 PM
I think there would be a difference between organisers and the dancers.


You read my mind :D

Swinging bee
21st-May-2007, 03:31 PM
Maybe you could explain a bit more about what you're tryng to find out, please? :flower:

We offered to advertise a ballroom event on our website and the gentleman concerned said he did not wish for a ballroom event to be mentioned on a "non recognised dance".. website ( whatever that is ) ...perhaps this is an example of dance snobbery:angry: I am still gobsmacked..can you understand it?

Spiky Steve
21st-May-2007, 03:54 PM
We offered to advertise a ballroom event on our website and the gentleman concerned said he did not wish for a ballroom event to be mentioned on a "non recognised dance".. website ( whatever that is ) ...perhaps this is an example of dance snobbery:angry: I am still gobsmacked..can you understand it?

It's what I expected of the dance world ordganisers and why I love MJ. It's like the football of the danceworld.

On the Sunday after the Blackpool competition we went to the famous ballroom for the sunday T-dance. It turned out to be ballroom dancing to the famous Wulrlitzer organ:eek: . With no flight home until later we had our tea and although worried at the reponse, we danced double trouble and played steal and swap partners. Some ballroom dancers said it all looked great fun. So I still feel the dancers are fine although the organist stuck to his playlist. I don't think he would have known Justin Timberlake anyhow:wink:

Steve

Sparkles
21st-May-2007, 04:01 PM
We offered to advertise a ballroom event on our website and the gentleman concerned said he did not wish for a ballroom event to be mentioned on a "non recognised dance".. website ( whatever that is ) ...perhaps this is an example of dance snobbery:angry: I am still gobsmacked..can you understand it?

No, I can't understand it.
I would have thought any chance for advertising and getting more people dancing (no matter what sort of dancing) would be a good thing.
Seems a very strange attitude to me.

MartinHarper
22nd-May-2007, 12:58 AM
Thing is with Ballroom, everyone sets out to get an Ideal and therefore they all dance the same.

With modern Jive, most people set out to be different and have their own style.

I understand there's also a problem with the surfeit of moves in Modern Jive. Ballroom judges want to be able to look at a couple and say "nice American Spin", from a list of twelve moves in the bronze curriculum, rather than merely noting that they look generically awesome. That doesn't fit with the Modern Jive philosophy on collecting dozens of moves and improvising more.

Before wishing too hard for ballroom to include Modern Jive, look at how they incorporated Tango, or Jive. I doubt many of us would be too happy with the results.

Thetruth
22nd-May-2007, 07:34 AM
To the untrained dancer they may all look the same. But believe me, most are world apart. Modern Jive is very young in the dance world and its time may come in the future. For now though, it best to accept were it stands in the dance world and just enjoy it as best you can.:respect:

Thetruth
22nd-May-2007, 07:37 AM
No, I can't understand it.
I would have thought any chance for advertising and getting more people dancing (no matter what sort of dancing) would be a good thing.
Seems a very strange attitude to me.

People go to learn Ballroom and Latin American dance, other people find out about modern jive. Basically people line up for ballroom and most people have never heard of ceroc or modern jive.

Sparkles
22nd-May-2007, 10:40 AM
People go to learn Ballroom and Latin American dance, other people find out about modern jive. Basically people line up for ballroom and most people have never heard of ceroc or modern jive.

I'm not sure I agree with this.
I never see ballroom classes being advertised - and until the whole SCD phenomenon I thought the uptake of ballroom dancing classes was fairly low (apart from kids and OAPs) especially in comparrison to things like football.
Ceroc/MJ on the other hand actively seeks and encourages people to dance - they don't have to go find classes, the classes go and find them.

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-May-2007, 10:50 AM
I'm not sure I agree with this.
I never see ballroom classes being advertised - and until the whole SCD phenomenon I thought the uptake of ballroom dancing classes was fairly low (apart from kids and OAPs) especially in comparrison to things like football.
Ceroc/MJ on the other hand actively seeks and encourages people to dance - they don't have to go find classes, the classes go and find them.

I agree with Sparkles.

I wanted to learn Ballroom when I was in Hastings. There was 4 MJ classes a week but no ballroom.

Non dancers are more likley to have heard of ballroom. Infact when I have to describe MJ to people, I tell them to think of a very modern ballroom crossed with 50's jive to hip hop music. Norm gives them some idea.

Spiky Steve
22nd-May-2007, 11:11 AM
I agree with Sparkles.

Infact when I have to describe MJ to people, I tell them to think of a very modern ballroom crossed with 50's jive to hip hop music. Norm gives them some idea.

I still think Modern Jive is not the best description of what we dance. People say it looks nothing like jive. The title is not worthy of the variety of what we do in my opinion.

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-May-2007, 11:15 AM
I still think Modern Jive is not the best description of what we dance. People say it looks nothing like jive. The title is not worthy of the variety of what we do in my opinion.

It looks nothing like jive. Think Modern Jive or French jive, infact the whole 'jive' thing to be really dated.

Sure some people dance in that way but quite a few don't. All depends on styles. Then again with WCS you don't really see much 'swing'

Thetruth
23rd-May-2007, 03:07 AM
I'm not sure I agree with this.
I never see ballroom classes being advertised - and until the whole SCD phenomenon I thought the uptake of ballroom dancing classes was fairly low (apart from kids and OAPs) especially in comparrison to things like football.
Ceroc/MJ on the other hand actively seeks and encourages people to dance - they don't have to go find classes, the classes go and find them.

Kids are the future, and whether it be football or dancing if kids are doing it then the future looks good for both. However, you mentioned that ceroc actively seek and encourage people. Ballroom does not actually need to do this as much. Like when the movie "Shall We Dance" was playing in the theatre's. How many people started ceroc compared to how many started ballroom/latin? I see ballroom classes advertised often, but rarely do I see ceroc advertised. And being a dancer I look for these things everyday.

ducasi
23rd-May-2007, 08:47 AM
I never see ballroom classes being advertised ...
There's usually 2 or 3 adverts in the weekly free newspaper here for ballroom/latin lessons...

I've never seen an advert for a MJ class in any newspaper or magazine.

ducasi
23rd-May-2007, 08:49 AM
I still think Modern Jive is not the best description of what we dance. People say it looks nothing like jive. The title is not worthy of the variety of what we do in my opinion.
:yeah:

Yep, it's a meaningless combination of two words that sit in embarrassment next to each other.

Spiky Steve
23rd-May-2007, 02:06 PM
There's usually 2 or 3 adverts in the weekly free newspaper here for ballroom/latin lessons...

I've never seen an advert for a MJ class in any newspaper or magazine.

Maybe a ballroom advert works for someone who thinks they are able to dance but wouldn't work for MJ?

For me the joy of what we do is the fact that lots of people who do MJ never thought they could dance.

Busking seems to be an advertising method for a new venue and then maybe word of mouth?

Does anyone know of any advertising used?

Steve

Whitebeard
23rd-May-2007, 03:42 PM
:yeah:

Yep, it's a meaningless combination of two words that sit in embarrassment next to each other.

Personally I think it's a pity they didn't settle on French Jive; a term which was, and still is, in limited alternative use. A hint, by association, of the sexy and sallacious; who can help entertaining subliminal thoughts of knickers and letters ?

Whitebeard
23rd-May-2007, 04:54 PM
There's usually 2 or 3 adverts in the weekly free newspaper here for ballroom/latin lessons...

I've never seen an advert for a MJ class in any newspaper or magazine.

Our local newspaper has a weekly 'What's On' compilation on Friday of the forthcoming week's events and attractions as line ads. Both Ceroc's two venues and the two local Lindy outfits advertise their classes; so MJ has a stronger presence than any other dance form; even Salsa. Ballroom does feature, but not very strongly, and it would seem that it's taught mainly in dance schools and the occasional community hall. A more fragmented and smaller scale scene than MJ. However they do put on seasonal Ballroom Balls at the Town Hall, which is hideously expensive to hire, so they must attract the numbers to make this feasable.

DJ Andy
23rd-May-2007, 11:03 PM
...Modern Jive...

:yeah:

Yep, it's a meaningless combination of two words that sit in embarrassment next to each other.

Sorry but I can't see a problem with the term.
To non-dancers, 'jiving' means a certain style of partnered dance( but not Ballroom) and Modern denotes either it's up to date musically or that it's similar but different to the 50's style jive.
I know it doesn't communicate all the nuances that enthusiasts would like to
convey to the general public but it seems broadly adequate.

Spiky Steve
24th-May-2007, 01:57 PM
...Modern Jive...


Sorry but I can't see a problem with the term.
To non-dancers, 'jiving' means a certain style of partnered dance( but not Ballroom) and Modern denotes either it's up to date musically or that it's similar but different to the 50's style jive.
I know it doesn't communicate all the nuances that enthusiasts would like to
convey to the general public but it seems broadly adequate.

But that's the point it's not a certain style of partnered dance and the jive means people expect us to be dancing to jive music and when they see our dance it's not what they expect at all. A good example of this was when the resident band at swish played a set of music suitable for us "Jivers". It was unsuitable.

Music has evolved just as dance has but we dont call it modern jive music or modern swing or modern rock. Music has a new name for it's evolvement, hip hop, rap or R 'n' B or simply dance etc etc etc.

MartinHarper
24th-May-2007, 02:16 PM
A good example of this was when the resident band at swish played a set of music suitable for us "Jivers". It was unsuitable.

Music too fast for you? One of the things that distinguishes Modern Jive from older folk jives is that it is typically danced to slower music. Hence the word "Modern", I guess?

straycat
24th-May-2007, 02:24 PM
But that's the point it's not a certain style of partnered dance and the jive means people expect us to be dancing to jive music and when they see our dance it's not what they expect at all. A good example of this was when the resident band at swish played a set of music suitable for us "Jivers". It was unsuitable.


Out of interest, what do you see as 'jive' music? (as opposed to 'modern jive' music?)
And what kind of stuff was this band playing?

Live music can be a problem with bands who are inexperienced at playing for dancers - the long-term ones who are good at this are, alas, rare - although they're definitely out there (eg: Jive Aces, King Pleasure, Blue Harlem)



Music has evolved just as dance has but we dont call it modern jive music or modern swing or modern rock. Music has a new name for it's evolvement, hip hop, rap or R 'n' B or simply dance etc etc etc.
In my (fevered) opinion, there's a far too much modern 'music', which has, alas, devolved, rather than evolved ... but that's a whole other debate...

Spiky Steve
24th-May-2007, 02:57 PM
Out of interest, what do you see as 'jive' music? (as opposed to 'modern jive' music?)
And what kind of stuff was this band playing?



With jive music I meant music to the original jive. they played rock 'n' roll stuff. There is no modern jive music. We dance to all types of music that are suitable for our dancing as you well know.

Dance is many things to many people I guess we all want different things from it.

Martin
25th-May-2007, 01:01 PM
Personally I think it's a pity they didn't settle on French Jive; a term which was, and still is, in limited alternative use. A hint, by association, of the sexy and sallacious; who can help entertaining subliminal thoughts of knickers and letters ?


Thing is, it is not "French Jive". French Jive is done in a slot, as I discovered when dancing in Paris in the clubs.
We had to adapt to a slot or get bumped into a lot.
It is also less "flashy"
In fairness to the froggies, a lot of the dancers asked me and my dance partner for a dance... It was a lot of fun. :respect:

Spiky Steve
25th-May-2007, 01:05 PM
Thing is, it is not "French Jive". French Jive is done in a slot, as I discovered when dancing in Paris in the clubs.
We had to adapt to a slot or get bumped into a lot.
It is also less "flashy"
In fairness to the froggies, a lot of the dancers asked me and my dance partner for a dance... It was a lot of fun. :respect:

Hmmm, I fancy getting out more :wink: Any tips on some good Parisian Clubs.

DJ Andy
26th-May-2007, 02:07 AM
Thing is, it is not "French Jive". French Jive is done in a slot, as I discovered when dancing in Paris in the clubs.
We had to adapt to a slot or get bumped into a lot.


Ceroc, LeRoc, and most other brands of Modern Jive class are taught in a slot ...only for that discipline to fly out of the window as soon as freestyle dancing starts.
...Funny that...!

Martin
26th-May-2007, 04:27 PM
Ceroc, LeRoc, and most other brands of Modern Jive class are taught in a slot ...only for that discipline to fly out of the window as soon as freestyle dancing starts.
...Funny that...!

I cannot agree here, MJ is certainly mostly taught in "rows" but many of the moves are circular in nature or wider than a "slot" as in the way the French dance and WCS.