Does experience matter?

[Gus]

Prompted by the mutual b1tch-slapping that Rocky/DS/Andy have been enjoying elsewhere .....

Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc" :devil: . A common area of comment is aerials. Statements were made with absolute authority by people who have just joined the dance scene ... at complete variance to the 'known' experts such as DavidB, Dave F etc.

There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?

[Lee Bartholomew]

No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.


Someone might come on to the dance scean and give really good valid advice on aerials that might contradict something someone more experianced says. It wont make them wrong, It could just be the advice that works for them.

Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from. :grin:

[Gus]

No experiance doesn't matter but skill does. Could I counter by saying that maybe its knowledge that matters. I've seen some great dancers but they don't know 'how' they do what they do and/or are unable to articulate to other how to improve.


Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from. :grin:But isn't the fundamental point that as a newbie you may not be able to discerne the valid form the invalid comments? Case in point, when I started volleyball one of our main exercises was to do deep bunny hops round the gym. Later I was told how dangerous this was for the knees :(

"Oh dear Lord, spare us from those that speak yet do not know."

[Lee Bartholomew]

Maybe your right, it prob is knowledge rather than skill.

But then how do you know who has the best knowledge if it's not related to skill or experiance?

[Gus]

But then how do you know who has the best knowledge if it's not related to skill or experiance?:yeah: Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.

[TheTramp]

No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.

Someone might come on to the dance scean and give really good valid advice on aerials that might contradict something someone more experianced says. It wont make them wrong, It could just be the advice that works for them.

Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from. :grin:

Oh god. Here we go again! Of course, I know that you're saying it just to wind people up, but unfortunately, it happens, and it's not good to be suggesting it.

This is SO not true. At least, it has the potential to be not true. And has the potential to be very dangerous.

Just because something works for one couple does NOT make it "really good valid" advice. Many people I've seen doing aerials substitute sheer brute strength for good technique. And while that may serve them, it's not good advice for other people.

Aerials are inherently dangerous. That's why most people who learn to do them well, learn from other, more experienced people. There are only a few people on the MJ scene who I would recommend to anyone wanting to learn aerials - Andy & Rena, David & Lily, and Dave F & Bryony, if they ever started teaching them, maybe a couple of others.

Any "advice" that contradicts anything any of these people say, is just stupid. And may well be dangerous.

Feel free to tell me now how wrong I am, Woodface.

[TheTramp]

:yeah: Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.

I think that it would depend on who the 'new kids on the block' were. Where they'd learnt. Whether or not the 'old kids on the block' thought that they were capable.

It would also probably depend on their circumstances. If they turned up after dancing for a limited time, and proceeded to tell everyone how wonderful they were, and give blatantly bad advice, then no, experienced dancers wouldn't listen to them, and would probably criticise them.... :rolleyes:

[Lee Bartholomew]

I think that it would depend on who the 'new kids on the block' were. Where they'd learnt. Whether or not the 'old kids on the block' thought that they were capable.

It would also probably depend on their circumstances. If they turned up after dancing for a limited time, and proceeded to tell everyone how wonderful they were, and give blatantly bad advice, then no, experienced dancers wouldn't listen to them, and would probably criticise them.... :rolleyes:

But then again some people hate 'new kids' don't they trampy.

Basicly what your saying is people should only take advice from people who you belive know best.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Ok my Fish eating friend....

DF gave me some great advice about my hand grip when doing a swan. When I can move again, Im going to give things ago with the way DF said (locking arms rather than hands). It might not work for me (though it prob will). I would have taken his advice and tried.

Another forumite who has only been dancing a few months pm'd me and said that the swan looks nice if you hold the girl by the shoulders. Again, im happy to give it ago this way (the way it was taught to me once) and it might or might not work.

Both are valid bits of advice from two diffrent people at different experiance levels. Neither of them are wrong but both contradict what the other is saying.

I will try both ways and see what works for me.

If either of them had said "Just let go of the lady and let her bounce up off her head", then that advice would be dangerous and bad no matter who it came from and I would use my judgment in recognising that.



Would you take Double Trouble advice from me or consider my advice valid on the subject?

[bigdjiver]

I went into an apprenticeship when I left school. It consisted of 5 years of 6 month stints in various departments. My first inkling that my masters might not be perfect was two almost identical office blocks were slightly different sizes because the conversion from metric to imperial had been done differently for each block.
Engineering Dept. - A diagram of a footstool could not possibly be right, it did not match Pythagorus's theorem. I was told to make it to prove it. The computer memory dept - a PhD was writing a scientific paper on electronic temperature control down to 1/100 of a degree. His test equipment was a cardboard box with an ordinary mercury thermometer sticking out of it. He did his wiring according to the resistor colour code. Black (0) 0 volts, Green (conventionally earth) =500 volts. . Trigger tube dept. I asked if I could play with a non-working testing machine. I got it working. My boss was ecstatic, and wanted to use it. I told him it was no use, because it relied on the properties of the failing tubes. I said harsh words about the inventor. I looked at my boss's face ....:eek:
We had a two high power research teams in. One to find out why some tubes tested good later failed when retested. The other was trying to determine if gas contamination was causing failure, which would be shown by an exponential failure rate. I took the data from the testing N times team and analysed it to find an exponential failure rate of 10% every 100 hours.My boss scoffed at my work, saying the average life of 1000 hours. I was moved on before I could get back to him with the news that 10% per 100 hours is an average life of 1000 hours.
The valve pass rate had just dropped to 80% when I joined that dept.. My next boss twiddled knobs and lowered it to 75%.. then 70%. He called in a superior. Through the apprentice grapevine I found out that the original drop was due to cathode contamination, and told him. He ignored me. The pass rate dropped to 50%. They called in heavier and heavier guns. The last run before I quit had a pass rate of 10%

I have acquired a sceptical view of the unquestioned value of "experience", paradoxically, based upon my experience.:confused:

[nebula]

:yeah: Dunno. Thats the problem. If you only accept the word of the accepted greats ... then any 'new kids on the block' would find it hard to get listened to.
yeah, but those of us, who have only joined fairly recently, don't know who the greats are!!!
And does it really matter? Yes, it was said already, that it is a nature of advice - you either take it, or spit at it. Don't we all? :wink:
Sometimes you are taught a move and don't feel right however much the teacher (a "great" :whistle: even, perhaps?) is trying to explain and show it to you. And then another partner comes along for a dance and gives a bit of advice - and despite the "great"'s insistence that it should have been done "this" way, you find it much easier to do it slightly differently - sometimes the beginners find the shortcuts that make more experienced dancers look unnecessarily :( fanciful and complicated. We can all, I presume, realise, when the advice is dangerous. But otherwise, try it, see if it works for you -and then either use it or ditch it!

[Rocky]

Prompted by the mutual b1tch-slapping that Rocky/DS/Andy have been enjoying elsewhere .....

Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc" :devil: .

The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.

So in your example, I would consider an explanation about Blues musicality and technique from Nigel to have more value than an explanation from someone who has never taught a Blues dance class in their life.

I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.

[Lee Bartholomew]

The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.

So in your example, I would consider an explanation about Blues musicality and technique from Nigel to have more value than an explanation from someone who has never taught a Blues dance class in their life.

I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.


It also comes down to how much you like that persons style etc.

I would rather take advice about a move from Jamie, Central Alex or the Troubles than I would Nigel purley because I don't have much admaration for him or the way he dances and his style.

For example, if he said "kick your legs out in a 1940's swing fashion on everysong you hear" then I wouldn't listen to that advice.

But if he came up to me and said "Thats good but try it this way" it might be helpful or I might like that new way of doing it.


I guess advice is only usefull if you use it, no matter who it comes from.

We all advise each other whether we know it or not. We all say to people "I like the way you done that" or "That was a brilliant dance" which in itself is a form of advice.

[Trouble]

Experience does matter to a certain extent because you need to experience something to really understand how it works IMO.

I may watch soembody do aerials and think to myself, well that didn't look good but i would not try and advise them how to make it look better because i wouldn't know how too. I might be dancing with somebody who was yanking me about too much, i would advise that person of a better way to do it and try to show them its not needed as i lead and would know how they could do this and improve it.

Experience does matter in most things in life. Take the first time you have sex. I bet not one single person on this forum could remember it as a fantastic time. :what: infact quite the opposite but thats another story. :flower:

[Lee Bartholomew]

Take the first time you have sex. I bet not one singe person on this forum could remember it as a fantastic time. :what: infact quite the opposite but thats another story. :flower:

I could't remember it as a fantastic time, but I bet she could :waycool: :rofl:

[Paulthetrainer]

In 1981, a 61 year old potato farmer called Cliff Young entered the Sydney to Melbourne ultra distance race - a race where performances are measured in days rather than hours and minutes.

Conventional wisdom suggested that participants ran like marathon runners, for 18 hours, then slept for 6 hours. Cliff Young showed up wearing overalls and gumboots, and he didn't even know that you were allowed to sleep! He denied himself sleep and shuffled very very slowly along the whole course without stopping. He beat some of the worlds greatest ultra distance runners by days! Cliff Young's way of running is now the accepted method for running ultra distance races....

The point is, Young did not have conventional beliefs, so he was not restricted by them. This allowed him to set a new bar.

In 1968 American Dick Fosbury astonished the athletics world with his new 'back float' technique in winning the Mexico City Olympic High Jump competition. This is now the accepted technique for 99% of the Worlds top high jumpers.

Where there is a mismatch between our beliefs and our results, our thinking and behaviour often changes so as to make our results consistant with our beliefs.

[StokeBloke]

Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post? Take an example of ... 'What is Blues about'. Would all comments be welcome or should people look for comments from the likes of Nigel, Rocky etc ... or can anyone make comments like, "its just slow Ceroc" :devil:
Ummm I'm not sure that you have really grasped the fundamental concept of a public forum Gus. Anyone can say anything they like (within the bounds of the forum's rules).

Dancing is not an exact science, so there will usually be more ways of doing and viewing things. Sometimes a new person will bring fresh ideas and new ways of looking at old problems/methods. If it were not for new ideas pushing things forward we would still be listening to Rave... no I mean Punk.... no I mean Disco.... no I mean Rock 'n Roll... no I mean Charleston.... no I mean Mozart.... no I mean.... It's called evolution Gus. That evolution doesn't have to invalidate the huge amount of already accepted expertise from knowledgeable sources. However, I think it is dangerous to imbue messianic status to any dancer - especially one's self :whistle:

There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?
Just being around something for a long time does not always make someone an expert either. A dancer may have been on the scene for many years and still not have the first clue about musicality for example Gus. Things are not always as straight forward as they seem either. Take the word 'teacher' for example. Is the advice of an out of practice ex-teacher more or less valid that the advice of current teacher who has their finger on the pulse of current teaching methods and ideas? Even though they may both be bandying the word about to claim their own oracle status.

In life you tend to get what you pay for; that includes free advice on the Internet. Buyer beware :wink:

[Gus]

Ummm I'm not sure that you have really grasped the fundamental concept of a public forum Gus. Anyone can say anything they like (within the bounds of the forum's rules).
Just being around something for a long time does not always make someone an expert either. A dancer may have been on the scene for many years and still not have the first clue about musicality for example Gus. Things are not always as straight forward as they seem either. Take the word 'teacher' for example. Is the advice of an out of practice ex-teacher more or less valid that the advice of current teacher who has their finger on the pulse of current teaching methods and ideas? Even though they may both be bandying the word about to claim their own oracle status. I was wondering how long before some thing like this would happen.:rolleyes:

OK ... lets get a few things right first of all. There will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ... but for gods sake lets droip all these wild cases of 'evolution'. We can alwys come up with some far more pertinent examples. Look at Nigel introducing Blues, Dan bringing in hip-hop fucion, Amir & Kate with Jamgo. Yes, these were all revolutionary changes in MJ ... BUT, thats not what we are talikng about.

I base my assertion on my day job, change management. For the last 20 yaers I've had to deal with numpties who know jack-sh1t 'changing' things: running projects; bringing in new technology; changing working practices WITHOUT having the real knowledge/expertise to make it work. This is also evident, in a slightly different wasy, on the dnace scene. I've lost track of the number of 'copy cat' instriuctors who have got on the aerials, Blues, tango-fusion band wagons and tried to make out that they are competent to teach ... when experienced dancers can quite clearly see that they are not. If I had a pound for everytime I've had to stop some ego-monster trying to teach beginners a drop or lift I'd have at least £37!

Even in MJ, there is rarely a right way. The way thet David B, Amir, Mike Ellard etc would teach you to dnace will all be different. The trick is to take what works for you. BUT, at least they all jave dance/muisc knowledge and at least what they would try to show you had a firm basis. Sure, there are alwys peolle coming up who from natural ability or experience elsewhere in the dnace world, can contribute ... but these numbers are dwarfed by the 'I've done 6 months of Ceroc and so now I can teach' bridage.:angry: :angry: :angry:

Ex-teacher I may be .... but my day job is based around understanding what needs to be taught, then conveying that to people at the appropriate level by the appropraite method. Even teachers have to learn to teach. Take AMoir as an example. HJe will openly amdit that when he started, there were 'areas for improvement'. His teaching approach now is significantly better than what it was ... and he continues to improve :worthy: .

I'm not attacking 'unknown' dancers by any means. What I am VERY cautious of is taking an idea that some new dancers are gifted and have revolutionary ideas ... and then extrapolating that idea so that EVERYONE is talking sense ... even when it counters the accepted logic of MJ.

[MartinHarper]

For all the nice things we can say about the hidden wisdom in dancing advice given by non-expert dancers (like me!) it must be admitted that they are mostly just reformulations, and sometimes chinese-whisper reformulations, of things said by experts.

[TheTramp]

But then again some people hate 'new kids' don't they trampy.

Basicly what your saying is people should only take advice from people who you belive know best.

Not at all. For 2 obvious examples, I think that Tom and Vicky are amazing dancers, and nice, unassuming people, who I could definitely learn stuff from.

I think that Jamie is a fantastic talent. He picks things up amazingly quickly, and I'm sure that given another few months, will be outstripping a lot of the areas that I'd consider myself to be good in (though, I wouldn't tell him that, his head is already big enough! :wink: ).

On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of 'new kids', whose talent doesn't come anywhere near the level that they think that it does, and who I wouldn't want to listen to in the main... :flower:

[Twirlie Bird]

There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of their dance experience. Purely saying that a newbies opinion carries no weight is insulting. :mad: Sure the more experience you have the more advise you may be able to give. The longer you have had to try out your beliefs, to back up your opinion. There is no argument here. The argument I have is as a newbie my opinion is not invalid. It may not be as weighted as many but this does not make it invalid. :mad: It is only an opinion after all. I'm not making anything I think a rule or saying it is the one and only way to do things.


No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.

Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from. :grin:

:yeah: Nobody is being forced to listen to anybody's advice and take it on board. Couldn't have said this better myself.



Would you take Double Trouble advice from me or consider my advice valid on the subject?

Yes I would. You obviously know what you are talking about and have the (huge) trophy to back this up. :respect: However this wouldn't mean that I would accept everything that you said on the subject. I would also listen to the advice of somebody who didn't have your merit. All areas of advice would be considered.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Not at all. For 2 obvious examples, I think that Tom and Vicky are amazing dancers, and nice, unassuming people, who I could definitely learn stuff from.

Them and 10,000 other dancers :na:



I think that Jamie is a fantastic talent. He picks things up amazingly quickly, and I'm sure that given another few months, will be outstripping a lot of the areas that I'd consider myself to be good in.



That happened ages ago. Jamie was prob still in the beginners classes when he passed you.



On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of 'new kids', whose talent doesn't come anywhere near the level that they think that it does, and who I wouldn't want to listen to in the main... :flower:

Maybe you should stop being so anti them and view them for what and who they are not how you think they are in your head. Watching your flash moves class from Storm. Can give you a few more for next time if you want to get people imagination going :wink:

[Trouble]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of their dance experience. Purely saying that a newbies opinion carries no weight is insulting. :mad: Sure the more experience you have the more advise you may be able to give. The longer you have had to try out your beliefs, to back up your opinion. There is no argument here. The argument I have is as a newbie my opinion is not invalid. It may not be as weighted as many but this does not make it invalid. :mad: It is only an opinion after all. I'm not making anything I think a rule or saying it is the one and only way to do things.

:.

You are absolutely right TB but you do have to experience it to understand what they are going through and how it is feeling or what you could do to make it better.

I can vouch that as newbies, you and stokie are one of the nicest dancers on the circuit and i would very much value your opinion on anything i did should you decide to give me one. :whistle: (no pun intended) You have however, experienced it and are entitled to that opinion and as i have experienced you (well DTS has and he says your absolutely fantastic) i would respect it. :hug: :flower:

[Gus]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion regardless of their dance experience. Purely saying that a newbies opinion carries no weight is insulting. :mad: Sure the more experience you have the more advise you may be able to give. The longer you have had to try out your beliefs, to back up your opinion. There is no argument here. The argument I have is as a newbie my opinion is not invalid. It may not be as weighted as many but this does not make it invalid. :mad: It is only an opinion after all. I'm not making anything I think a rule or saying it is the one and only way to do things.Urrrrr I never said that someone new should have their view point ignored ... quite the opposite (if you read what I said:whistle: ). When I was referring to newbies, I was saying that for them it is harder to assess whom they should listen to ... as they are less likely to know whether the person giving the advice knows what they are talking about or not. As adequately illustrated by some of the flame wars going on elsewhere in the Forum between our more 'senior members' ... length of service does not always equal 'grasp of the facts' :wink:

[Gus]

Maybe you should stop being so anti them and view them for what and who they are not how you think they are in your head. Watching your flash moves class from Storm. Can give you a few more for next time if you want to get people imagination going :wink:Hold on there duck. Trampy may not always be in everyones dancecard but its a brave man who disses his record and ability. We may not see eye to eye but Steve has a whole string of competition succeses over the yaers (in meaningfull competitions in meaningfull events:waycool:), has become a regular teacher for Ceroc (without being CTA trained?) and is an established DJ on the upper circuit. Doesn't that count for something?

[Lee Bartholomew]

Hold on there duck. Trampy may not always be in everyones dancecard but its a brave man who disses his record and ability. We may not see eye to eye but Steve has a whole string of competition succeses over the yaers (in meaningfull competitions in meaningfull events:waycool:), has become a regular teacher for Ceroc (without being CTA trained?) and is an established DJ on the upper circuit. Doesn't that count for something?

Nigel A has alot of credentials too, but me and I know a fair amount of other people don't rate his dancing. Each to their own.

Im sure Trampy on Form is a great dancer. Infact the first thing I done when I joint the forum was send him a PM saying that I thought so after seeing him at Camber.

But since then, I have become a better dancer, evolved my dance style and seen bateer and better dancers on my travels.

I have attchieved a hell of alot in the 14 odd months I have been dancing.

Unfortunatly, in Trampys case the lack of respect is mutual. He thinks nothing of my dance ability and that I have an over inflated ego, I think the same of him. Just one of those things.

I wouldn't say hand on heart, that im a better dancer than Trampy, though I would say it in jest like I do to Rocky and Andy McGreggor (though we all know it to actually be true :na:).

I would love to hear from Trampy as to what he considers himself to be better than Jamie at because quite frankly I can't see anything other than bigging himself up.

At least Jamie is polite, friendly and a laugh. Never been able to hold a conv with Steve.

"Hi, im Woodface" - Holds Hand out for a shake

"I know who you are" looks at hand, then walks off

[Gus]

Nigel A has alot of credentials too, but me and I know a fair amount of other people don't rate his dancing. Each to their own.

Im sure Trampy on Form is a great dancer. Infact the first thing I done when I joint the forum was send him a PM saying that I thought so after seeing him at Camber.

But since then, I have become a better dancer, evolved my dance style and seen bateer and better dancers on my travels.I think there is a huge difference between being a visually good dancer and being able to help others. I know a number of good dancers who will never win a competition but have real insight into how to teach and help develop dancers. Unfortutaley the converse is true and there are a plethora of good/great dancers who are teaching ... and really shouldn't. The thing is that Nigel, and to a lesser extent Trampy, have an experience and understanding that they can pass on ... and thats a very valuable thing. Like you I did well early on, placed 4th in the UK in my first Nationals (Blackpool) ... and beat Trampy in the process:devil: . Looked good on paper. What did I really know about dancing ... naff all. Five years on, I'd be embarressed to even try to compete at Intermediate level, but my knowledge and reaching have developed massively (though still not started to scratch the surface).

So ... by all means tak eissue with Steve's attitude, he can be a complete twonk at times ... but then again so can many of us at times ... and there are usualy reasons as to why people react like that. However, do recognise that once he drops the attitude, he has much to teach ... and isn't that all part of the game .... finding those who can impart knowledge that makes us better then we currently are, be it in dance, work or life itself?

[Dreadful Scathe]

The point I've been trying to make about this is that all opinion is 'valid' but some opinion carries more weight than others.

Strange, thats exactly what I believe too :)




I've always found DS' views, which are the exact opposite of this viewpoint, to be bizarre.

:confused:

[Caro]

While somehow everybody seem to agree to some extent that everybody is entitled to express their opinion, but that the credit given to such opinions tends to depend largely on the knowledge (skills and/or experience) of the poster; and while it would be fairly entertaining to discuss if anybody really wants to take advice from WF or whom, between WF and Trampy, has got the biggest ego (and is there any other worthy contendent for the my-ego-is-bigger-than-yours comp); is there any chance we could discuss, and may be offer solutions (!), to the problem underlying this thread, i.e. how can we make sure that newbies could distinguish between advice that comes from a punter (even an experienced/skilled one) and one that comes from a well-established teacher, recognised by his/her peers as being one of the best in the field ?

(and do I win an award for the longest sentence in history here?)

I guess where I'm coming from is that on the strictly westies forum, there is a whole section called 'ask the pros' where you can, hmm, ask your questions to the pros, and get rapid and comprehensive answers by the best (without having to scroll through numerous posts by other punters).
To get an idea of what a pro might post on a fairly common topic (hand connection), have a look here (http://www.strictlywestie.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2689). :eek:

Is that something that could be implemented on here ? Is it a good idea in the first place ?
The pros are fairly obvious, what about the cons ? Would that reduce interaction between the (non-pros) forumites ? How would we decide who's a pro in what field and how ? (talk about bruised egos...)

Or could we have 'special members' like Amir, David B (please come back), and others with a special tag / profile so that whenever their post on a dance thread, everybody would know who they are and what credit they should give to their answer ?

[spindr]

Experience doesn't matter per se -- being able to explain why a technique works is the key ability.

Experience should make it easier to provide the explanation tho'

SpinDr

[Gus]

Or could we have 'special members' like Amir, David B (please come back), and others with a special tag / profile so that whenever their post on a dance thread, everybody would know who they are and what credit they should give to their answer ?Would be great ... but can you imagine the fight over who gets to sit on the selection board for such posts .... would make the UN look like a Scout group. AND can you imagine the fun if no-one from Ceroc(tm) was deemed good enough to sit on the panel :devil: :devil:


OK ..... suggestions for experts by section

Aerials: David B & Lily; David F; Andy & Rena

Blues: Nigel & Nina; Val & Rocky

Competition Dancing: Simon & Nicole; Phil & Yuko; Dave & Lily

Dance technique: Dave & Lily; Amir; Roger Chin; Simon & Nicole

Any others? :whistle:

[StokeBloke]

OK ..... suggestions for experts by section

Aerials: David B & Lily; David F; Andy & Rena

Blues: Nigel & Nina; Val & Rocky

Competition Dancing: Simon & Nicole; Phil & Yuko; Dave & Lily

Dance technique: Dave & Lily; Amir; Roger Chin; Simon & Nicole

Any others? :whistle:
Well the obvious glaring exception of Woodface, the current UK double trouble champ, that seems like a pretty solid list. Is this a first; something we actually agree on Gus :wink:

[TheTramp]

At least Jamie is polite, friendly and a laugh. Never been able to hold a conv with Steve.

"Hi, im Woodface" - Holds Hand out for a shake

"I know who you are" looks at hand, then walks off

Actually, that WAS the polite and friendly response. :flower:

To those people I like, I can be polite, friendly and a laugh. To those people I don't, why would I pretend? Nothing worse than a hypocrite.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Actually, that WAS the polite and friendly response. :flower:

To those people I like, I can be polite, friendly and a laugh. To those people I don't, why would I pretend? Nothing worse than a hypocrite.


Because as has been said to you (and you said this yourself) im diffrent off the forum. The forum is abit of pantomime. Everyone gets that. Look at how I rip at Rocky and Andy. They know it's all a laugh and the give it back. Seems the only people who don't realise that is you and Caro. Shame.

I only took a dislike of you after we met. No need for rudeness at all but hey, at lest I know I was polite. Even at the champs I made a note of asking how you were doing and things, being polite and freindly as I am to most people.

I even tried chatting to you at Chill but again was just met with sarcasam.

Sad thing is Trampy, you may have been around for x amount of years and may have won x amount of comps in your time and travelled the world dancing but someone in your position who ob gets respect from some of the forumites, should be encoraging us 'new kids' (esp with your teaching creds) and not acting like the big 'I am' and lamblasting them.

Anyway Tramps, thats the last im prob going to say on the subject. Most people know who has the attitude in real life.

on a seperate note Caro, ask Fletch, witty, DT, DTS, Trouble, Jamie, Caz, Minnie, Rocky, Robd, Spikey Steve,Cruella,onker, Stokie,Barmpot, Diana S Andy McGreg etc etc etc if I have an ego. They will all (hopefully tell you) im pretty humble in real life. The forum is just a laugh and all those people know that. Hopefully at Southport I will be able to add you to that list.

[frodo]

No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.
...
Skill matters positively in that a sufficient level of skill is needed.

However, an exceptional level of skill the most talented may have probably still matters, but in a negative way.


The very talented pick up things easily and are able to learn in a way that the majority are less likely to follow.

So what they say should be taken with a pinch of salt.


Sometimes the particular talented do end up as good teachers, but that is probably more to do with experience - because they are experienced they've picked up a lot of teaching work. With lots experience of teaching they may become good.

[NZ Monkey]

On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of 'new kids', whose talent doesn't come anywhere near the level that they think that it does, and who I wouldn't want to listen to in the main... :flower:Yeah, but that won't stop me trying to tell you how to dance anyway Trampy :devil:

I certainly value the words of wisdom from our established gurus here such as DavidB and LilyB, DavidF, Amir, Rocky and a bunch of others I don't know myself. Experience makes a difference, and the phrase ''old age and experience will beat youthful enthusiasm every time'' wasn't invented for nothing.

The flip side is that the word of experience can be taken dogmatically, and anyone who challenges their view (regardless of objective consideration of their claims) can be burned down in the flames of religious fervor and forever labeled a heretic or pariah......

OK, so it isn't *that* bad, but there is a tendency for many to simply reject idea's out of hand without considering them. Often then appealing to the authority that told them what to think in the first place as proof of their position. I think G. Patton said something along the lines ''if everyone is thinking the same thing then nobody's thinking''. Dissent is important for re-evaluation and improvement.

I agree with Gus in that it's very hard for a newbie to determine the difference between sound advice and sketchy advice if you consider every post as being equally valuable. The most powerful tool I have found to date to do this in any forum and on any topic is this:

Correct grammar implies careful and educated thought

It's that simple. Spell checkers can make spelling a poor indicator (and I should know....my spelling is poor on a good day). Think of all the people who you admire and who's opinion you respect on this forum or on any other and I can almost guarantee that you'll find the same. There are the occasional spanner in the works but they are very much the exception.

Perhaps the forum should have a ranking system based on grammar? DavidJames, how are you for policing that? :innocent:

[Andy McGregor]

on a seperate note Caro, ask Fletch, witty, DT, DTS, Trouble, Jamie, Caz, Minnie, Rocky, Robd, Spikey Steve,Cruella,onker, Stokie,Barmpot, Diana S Andy McGreg etc etc etc if I have an ego. They will all (hopefully tell you) im pretty humble in real life. The forum is just a laugh and all those people know that. Hopefully at Southport I will be able to add you to that list.I have met woodface in real life. I can't say that I know him well, but he seems like a pleasant guy. Does woodface in real-life have and ego? Yes he does, but no more than any of us show-off dancers. However, I find his Forum persona irritating for so, so many reasons. My advice to woodface is to stop posting in the way he does on the Forum if he wants the respect of the members of the Forum.

Of course, if woodface want to continue to irritate us on here there's nothing we can do to stop him :tears:

[fletch]

Perhaps the forum should have a ranking system based on grammar? DavidJames, how are you for policing that? :innocent:


well I would be a the bottom of that one,:tears: but then again you carn't be the best at everything can you :whistle:

[Dreadful Scathe]

well I would be a the bottom of that one,:tears: but then again you carn't be the best at everything can you :whistle:
You'll just have to be happy being the best at everything else ;)

[robd]

Experience, by definition, will also include an awareness of things that don't work (and sometimes an insight into why they don't work) and this can be as useful as being able to highlight things that do work.

In general I will give greater weight to the opinion of someone who has achieved (whether through teaching pedigree/competition success/positive feedback from those I trust) in the relevant field (not just dance) than those who have not (or maybe who have yet to do so) but ultimately it's my decision as to what advice to take on board. I do agree that sometimes though the opinions of certain individuals are taken as sacred and any kind of questioning is shot down with 'Don't you know who you are disagreeing with??' accusations rather than reasoned argument. Similarly, when seeking to strengthen the value of their own opinions some forumites will announce that 'famous name X also believes this/teaches this/says this so I must be right'.

[Lee Bartholomew]

I have met woodface in real life. I can't say that I know him well, but he seems like a pleasant guy. Does woodface in real-life have and ego? Yes he does, but no more than any of us show-off dancers. However, I find his Forum persona irritating for so, so many reasons. My advice to woodface is to stop posting in the way he does on the Forum if he wants the respect of the members of the Forum.

Of course, if woodface want to continue to irritate us on here there's nothing we can do to stop him :tears:

Theres not really all that much wrong with what I post. I put my opinion on the forum, people either agree with it or they don't. Sometimes I might say something contraversial but some of the best disscussions going are about contraversy.

Look at post number 2.......


No experiance doesn't matter but skill does.


Someone might come on to the dance scean and give really good valid advice on aerials that might contradict something someone more experianced says. It wont make them wrong, It could just be the advice that works for them.

Advice by it's very nature is something that can either be taken on board or ignored, but it is always something that should be considered, no matter who the advice comes from. :grin:

Whats wrong with that statement? Nothing that I can see having re-read it a few times. It's my opinion and that of a few others having read through this thread.

Now comes a response to that statement.....


Oh god. Here we go again! Of course, I know that you're saying it just to wind people up, but unfortunately, it happens, and it's not good to be suggesting it.

This is SO not true. At least, it has the potential to be not true. And has the potential to be very dangerous.

{snip}

Any "advice" that contradicts anything any of these people say, is just stupid. And may well be dangerous.

Feel free to tell me now how wrong I am, Woodface.

Now which of these posts is more wrong. Mine giving my opinion to something or Trampys automaticaly trying to make it look like im causing trouble?

According to Trampys post, you should not take any advice from anyone who's not on his list because it would be stupid. Hmmm your not on that list Mr McGreggor so I had best not ask you for your opinion on some aerials me and Blueeyes might put in to a showcase routine incase it's not the same advice that would be given by someone on his list, even if that advice is about spare arm style. Would be stupid to take advice on holding an egg with a spare arm if DF or Lilly B might sugest jazz hands eh.

Best not to attend any weekender workshops not run by these people either. Does ceroc know how dangerous it is getting Steve and Lyida teaching baby aerials without ythem first confirming it what those on Trampy's list would say.

Oh and Indy teachers better not teach any either. Maybe they should loose their insurance or we should destroy their reputation if they teach one at a work shop.

Howard and Nicolas workshop recently taught a few lifts. I will write a letter of complaint to Mike Ellard that the proper checks were not made before this class was run.

Lets now take Trampys therory further and any ceroc move has the potential for injury however small the risk may be. Would we all need to do training through one or two people of trampys choice before we teach. Maybe they should be the only ones who teach, or there could be a hotline through to them if a pupil asks a question that has not come up before.

Of course all conversations of "I like that move, how did you do it?" would have to stop.




So to sum up my point..........

Some people might not agree with everything I post however, if it starts a good debate livens the forum up or gives a good laugh, then what is the harm.

It's the people who deliberatly go out of their way to actually cause trouble that are the problem.




:flower:

[David Franklin]

I do agree that sometimes though the opinions of certain individuals are taken as sacred and any kind of questioning is shot down with 'Don't you know who you are disagreeing with??' accusations rather than reasoned argument. This can be a problem, but in the thread I'm thinking of where this happened, it was in response to someone posting "If you think that you obviously don't know much about aerials...", so the response was somewhat justified.

More generally, on an internet forum where anyone can claim anything, there's only so far you can go with reasoned argument if someone is hell bent on insisting "I can so do it like this". The "expert" says "it doesn't work (looks crap/is dangerous etc)" and gets the response "it does work if you do it properly".

At which point you are very much down to deciding which person's credentials are more credible.


Similarly, when seeking to strengthen the value of their own opinions some forumites will announce that 'famous name X also believes this/teaches this/says this so I must be right'.I've certainly used this argument, but generally in response to the credentials deadlock above. Because if, for example, a multiple world champion says "X is dangerous and we don't do it", I would hope people would see that it is a bit ridiculous to say "Well, it's not dangerous if you do it properly". (In practice, however, I was accused of arguing from authority, so ...)

[Lee Bartholomew]

{snip}


There really is a valid argument for both things. I would hope in the case of aerials commons sense would prevail to ensure safty. Quite frankly, if a couple are stupid enough to practise aerials without ensuring safty of them or making sure things are as risk free as possible, then they should expect an injury.

My advice about aerials would be to make sure things are done with safty in mind all the time. Me and Blueyes are just going to start doing a donut drop (then hopefully work out a double trouble donut drop) but not without ensuring we have 2 spotters, pleanty of soft flooring (crash mats etc), have the finest deails of the move worked out, spotting where things have the potential to go wrong, having a safty word and a way of bailing out for both people if things dont feel right and breaking the move down in to stages.

I don't know if that, if this was given to someone as advice, it would be contraditionary to what any of the experts would say, but I feel it would be valid advice anyhow.

If I was to see someone attempting to practise a dangerous aerial without them taking the above steps then I certainly feel I should step in and give them the 'advice' stated above no matter what my credentials.





* on a seperate thought, most of the winning Double Trouble routine was aerials. Does this mean my aerials opining carrys some weight now? :wink: :na:

[bigdjiver]

If I wanted to dance like DanceGodX I might watch DGX and listen to DGX, pr, perhaps more effectively, learn from those that taught DGX. I am sure at the end of the day the best I could hope for would be to look like I was trying to dance like DGX. Whatever, I would not really consider myself an expert in anything if I was not able to listen to any advice and decide for myself whether it was good or bad.

[David Franklin]

Whatever, I would not really consider myself an expert in anything if I was not able to listen to any advice and decide for myself whether it was good or bad.If that's in response to my post, I'm perfectly able to listen to the advice from the Savoys and decide that I agree with it. Because I know darn well from experience that I would find "it" (leading full-on aerials without signals or pre-arrangement) impossibly difficult and dangerous.

But the point is that on here, you will get people saying "you might not be able to do it, but I'm sure I could if I worked at it".

Theoretically they might even have a point, but I think that if arguably the best couple in the world aren't good enough to make it work, perhaps it's time to accept it's just not a viable concept.

[robd]

Howard and Nicolas workshop recently taught a few lifts.

This reminds me of another element of the debate namely, do 'experts' practice what they preach? I have never been to a workshop by H&N and only pick them out as woodface mentions them above and made me remember this but I was watching their recap of a drops and dips class at one of the ceroc weekenders. They gave advice on posture and general do/don'ts prior to demoing the moves. One don't they highlighted was for followers to fling their head back during a dip. The very first dip they then demoed saw N throw her head right back contrary to everything they had just said :rolleyes:

[Lee Bartholomew]

Theoretically they might even have a point, but I think that if arguably the best couple in the world aren't good enough to make it work, perhaps it's time to accept it's just not a viable concept.


I don't think thats true. Someone may be the best couple in the world but it doesn't automaticaly make them the best in all aspects of what they do.

What if a new unheard of couple came on the sceane and won everything that year. Their advice might have been dismissed earlier on as a 'who are you to say'


If a mechanic told me something I would trust his opinion more than that of the man down the pub. The man down the pub might be right though.

[David Franklin]

What if a new unheard of couple came on the sceane and won everything that year. Their advice might have been dismissed earlier on as a 'who are you to say'If they're that good, I would have to wonder why they are wasting their timing posting on a Ceroc forum!

More seriously, if you know what you're talking about, I think people do generally work it out. I think a good example in point would be Andreas; within a few posts my assessment of him was "I dunno who you are, but you seem to really know your stuff".


If a mechanic told me something I would trust his opinion more than that of the man down the pub. The man down the pub might be right though.Suppose you were a mechanic and the man down the pub posted on a forum "you know a really good tip? Pour a pound of sugar into the petrol tank, it doubles the fuel economy".

Would you post that he's wrong, or would you say "well, I wouldn't do it myself, but you never know, he might be right?".

[bigdjiver]

If that's in response to my post... It was not. It was something I had been planning to post for over two hours.


.... Because I know darn well from experience that I would find "it" (leading full-on aerials without signals or pre-arrangement) impossibly difficult and dangerous...I know that from just thinking about it.


But the point is that on here, you will get people saying "you might not be able to do it, but I'm sure I could if I worked at it". They said that about flying for centuries, and the words are buried in countless graves. Eventually the Wright men appeared...


Theoretically they might even have a point, but I think that if arguably the best couple in the world aren't good enough to make it work, perhaps it's time to accept it's just not a viable concept.... but "impossible" was the way to bet.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Suppose you were a mechanic and the man down the pub posted on a forum "you know a really good tip? Pour a pound of sugar into the petrol tank, it doubles the fuel economy".

Would you post that he's wrong, or would you say "well, I wouldn't do it myself, but you never know, he might be right?".


But then that is ob, just like if someone said do a swan dive without holding your partner, it make's it look neater. If your dumb enough not to realise your partner is going to end up flat on her face, then no matter who gives you advice, there's no hope.


I agree with what your saying prob to a greater extent than you realise. My argument is, people shouldn't just dis-regard someones advice because they are not a 'name' in the world of dance. They should dis-regard it if it doesn't work for them or undermimes their own better judgment.

As a I have said before, I know you are well respected on the forum and dance world, but I can't honestly say "Yes DF is a God of aerials and dance" as I have never seen you dancing. Doesn't mean I won't listen to your advice but it does mean that your advice would prob be of greater weight to me if I saw and liked what you did, rather than what others say they like.

Hope this makes sence without causing offence.

Really looking forward to seeing a showcase or something from you to see what all the fuss is about. Any clips on youtube or anything :nice:

:cheers:

Anyway....

I think the idea of having an advice panel is not a good one because....


a) people prob wont listen anyway
b) Who chooses the panel?
c) what if someone on the panel was to give bad / dangerous advice who would be in a position to say they are wring?
d) how many topics would be covered? Spinning, shoes etc etc all have questions
e) Would create an elitist feeling.

[David Franklin]

But then that is ob, just like if someone said do a swan dive without holding your partner, it make's it look neater. If your dumb enough not to realise your partner is going to end up flat on her face, then no matter who gives you advice, there's no hope.What is obvious to one person is not to another.

For instance I'm pretty sure it is possible to do a swan dive without holding your partner (I don't know how difficult it would be, but at worst case you could start with a 7 foot base and a 4 foot 6 top, and even at full extension she's not going to hit the floor). But it would be pretty stupid to give it out as general advice just because it might be possible for some couple somewhere.


I agree with what your saying prob to a greater extent than you realise. My argument is, people shouldn't just dis-regard someones advice because they are not a 'name' in the world of dance. They should dis-regard it if it doesn't work for them or undermimes their own better judgment.To a large extent this is true, because generally the best way to learn is through experience and experiment. The problem is when safety is involved, because lying in an ambulance is a very poor way of finding out the advice someone you gave you really wasn't very good. (This is one of the reasons discussions about aerials on here tend to get heated).

The other difficulty is people's "better" judgement is always coloured by their own experience or lack of it. People often don't know what they're really doing when they are dancing, and this is particularly true with aerials. (I frequently have no idea what's gone wrong during a move - it all happens so fast, and the priority is saving your partner, not making notes).

Now I have seen literally hundreds of aerials go wrong to some extent or other without injury. And the thing is, very few people see those near-misses as anything serious, they end up sprawling on the floor laughing (and why not, I don't expect them to cry!). But in many of the actual accidents I've seen, you can trace it back to the near misses. Basically, they were doing the move badly, and I'm sure would have insisted "no, it's perfectly safe like this, we've done it like this a hundred times". Then came the hundred-and-first.

[The one really scary fall Bryony's had was learning the Dulaine, and in hindsight it was exactly the scenario above. Occasionally it would go wrong, I'd grab her leg to save her - no problem. Until the time I didn't catch the leg :blush:].


As a I have said before, I know you are well respected on the forum and dance world, but I can't honestly say "Yes DF is a God of aerials and dance" as I have never seen you dancing.Heck, I can't honestly say that. I'm a pretty average dancer. I am pretty good at lifts, but even there I wouldn't even be a contender outside of the small world of MJ, to be honest.

The funny thing is that because they've either been taught by or at least know how good David/Lily really are, the main competing couples are actually pretty humble. Because we all know that David and Lily could turn up on the day of the comp, practice for an hour or so, then when it comes to the actual comp do one aerial (lasting over a minute or so with transitions between 1 handed lifts), and blow everyone else off the floor.


Really looking forward to seeing a showcase or something from you to see what all the fuss is about. Any clips on youtube or anything :nice:Avatar is the best you're gonna get, I'm afraid. (Yes, I'm chicken).

[Lee Bartholomew]

For instance I'm pretty sure it is possible to do a swan dive without holding your partner (I don't know how difficult it would be, but at worst case you could start with a 7 foot base and a 4 foot 6 top, and even at full extension she's not going to hit the floor). But it would be pretty stupid to give it out as general advice just because it might be possible for some couple somewhere.

{and some other stuff}



Will have a look in to that and let you know my findings :wink: :na: .


I agree that with aerials things can go wrong and is a darker subject matter for advice etc than standard MJ moves.

I would never want to give advice on knife throwing as I have never done it. If however I have thrown a few knives, I would feel comfortable in telling people and advising them in where it went wrong for me so they could learn from my mistakes.

Same with aerials, only less police involvment and funerals. :blush:

[David Franklin]

* on a seperate thought, most of the winning Double Trouble routine was aerials. Does this mean my aerials opining carrys some weight now? :wink: :na:I know this was tongue in cheek, but your own argument applies: I'd have to see the video. (To be honest, the photos I've seen of your routine don't impress me. But photos can be very unflattering, and it's really hard to take good photos of freestyle aerials).

But I'm really only replying because I wanted to post this link to some really cool double trouble aerials...

YouTube - sports acrobatics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q082F_GdpA)

[Rocky]

I'm sorry Gus, but this has got to be the 'funniest' thing you have written - all these spelling mistakes in just one post...:rofl:




There will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ...

Amir & Kate with Jamgo...

BUT, thats not what we are talikng about.

In a slightly different wasy, on the dnace scene. I've lost track of the number of 'copy cat' instriuctors...

At least they all jave dance/muisc knowledge and at least what they would try to show you had a firm basis.

Sure, there are alwys peolle coming up who from natural ability or experience elsewhere in the dnace world, can contribute ...

Take AMoir as an example. HJe will openly amdit that when he started, there were 'areas for improvement'.


Amoir and Kate dnacing a jave fusion called Jamgo. The peolle amdit they are the best instriuctors because of their muisc knowledge but there will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ...

Have you got a faulty keyboard or some kind of special numpty glasses goin on or what??

[Lee Bartholomew]

I'm sorry Gus, but this has got to be the 'funniest' thing you have written - the spelling mistakes are just classic.:rofl:



Amoir and Kate dnacing a jave fusion called Jamgo. The peolle amdit they are the best instriuctors because of their muisc knowledge but there will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ...

Have you got a faulty keyboard or some kind of special numpty glasses goin on or what??

I've bhen givenn im tyyping lessonns.

[robd]

I've bhen givenn im tyyping lessonns.

:rofl:

It's like a west country accent in print.

[Lee Bartholomew]

:rofl:

It's like a west country accent in print.


Don't, everyone up here looks at me as if I have the strange voice.

[Caro]

My advice to woodface is to stop posting in the way he does on the Forum if he wants the respect of the members of the Forum.


Although WF knows I am ignoring him, I find through the quote by Andy that he is actually addressing posts to me.

What I'm gonna say is pretty simple: when people first post on this forum, as far as I am concerned they have some basic level of respect, i.e. fellow dance addict and potential forum friend. From then on, if they consistently demonstrate insensible posting behaviour, they go into the 'consistent insensible' box, aka the moron's box.
WF has been remarkably consistent in being insensible, therefore is deeply buried in the aforementioned box. Now it'd take some pretty serious and sustained sensible behaviour for me to consider un-buring him and putting him in a more 'friendly' box, shall we say.
He might be a nice chap in real life, I don't know the only thing I can base my opinion on are his posts on the forum. And those lead me to believe that he and I wouldn't have a great load of shared interests.

Because you ask for it WF, I'll un-ignore you for a while. You want respect, earn it.

If that's important to you, then I suggest you stop trolling, and post sensibly.
If not, then keep going: you post in your infamous provocative moronic style, and I reply accordingly. You enjoy creating trouble, and I am playing your game (well, when I'm not ignoring you). So what exactly are you complaining about?

I think you are the only person on this forum with whom I am not looking forward to dancing. It has to be said, it's a first. :what:
I trust that answers your PM as well.

[Lee Bartholomew]

{some stuff}
I think you are the only person on this forum with whom I am not looking forward to dancing. It has to be said, it's a first. :what:
I trust that answers your PM as well.


Part of the problem Caro, is the way you read my posts. Read them twice if it helps. I admit sometimes things don't come out quite how I expected them too when I re-read back a day or so after posting but that is the nature of written comunication.

You have got to stop listining to those who delib try to put me in a bad light too. Re read some of the posts that you have taken ommerage to and work out why you dont like them. Put them in a list as a pm if you want and we can take it from there. :flower:

I don't ask that you un-ignore me. Feel free to do what you want. ASFIAK im only on your ingore list. Not going to cry over it.

Assume it means I will get a few dances from you at Southport?

I actually have a high expectancy for the standard of your dancing based on what I have heard from other forumites. Just hope you don't expect too much back.
:grin:

[Caro]

Part of the problem Caro, is the way you read my posts. Read them twice if it helps. I admit sometimes things don't come out quite how I expected them too when I re-read back a day or so after posting but that is the nature of written comunication.


I admit English is not my native language, but I think my understanding of it is fairly ok. As somebody else suggested, if a lot of people don't seem to understand the content/tone of your posts, may be YOU want to rethink about the way you communicate.


Re read some of the posts that you have taken ommerage to and work out why you dont like them. Put them in a list as a pm if you want and we can take it from there. :flower:


euh, no thanks. Why would I want to put myself through posts, that I thought were idiotic, twice?


I don't ask that you un-ignore me. Feel free to do what you want. ASFIAK im only on your ingore list. Not going to cry over it.


You're addressing some posts to me, and sending me (a) PM, none of which I can see if I have you on ignore. So what does it call for?



Assume it means I will get a few dances from you at Southport?


Which part of 'I am not looking forward to dancing with you do you not understand exactly?' :confused:



I actually have a high expectancy for the standard of your dancing based on what I have heard from other forumites. Just hope you don't expect too much back.


I suspect you and I don't enjoy the same things from our dancing, therefore I'd be surprised you'd enjoy dancing with me.

[Dreadful Scathe]

I admit English is not my native language,

I don't think it's woodfaces either :)

[JiveLad]

Although WF knows I am ignoring him, I find through the quote by Andy that he is actually addressing posts to me.

What I'm gonna say is pretty simple: when people first post on this forum, as far as I am concerned they have some basic level of respect, i.e. fellow dance addict and potential forum friend. From then on, if they consistently demonstrate insensible posting behaviour, they go into the 'consistent insensible' box, aka the moron's box.
WF has been remarkably consistent in being insensible, therefore is deeply buried in the aforementioned box. Now it'd take some pretty serious and sustained sensible behaviour for me to consider un-buring him and putting him in a more 'friendly' box, shall we say.
He might be a nice chap in real life, I don't know the only thing I can base my opinion on are his posts on the forum. And those lead me to believe that he and I wouldn't have a great load of shared interests.

Because you ask for it WF, I'll un-ignore you for a while. You want respect, earn it.

If that's important to you, then I suggest you stop trolling, and post sensibly.
If not, then keep going: you post in your infamous provocative moronic style, and I reply accordingly. You enjoy creating trouble, and I am playing your game (well, when I'm not ignoring you). So what exactly are you complaining about?

I think you are the only person on this forum with whom I am not looking forward to dancing. It has to be said, it's a first. :what:
I trust that answers your PM as well.

:rofl: :rofl: Well, personally, I look for the moronic postings and there I identify a person I can identify with (being myself a some time moronic poster). Someone who can take a Camusian perspective on things and reflect the absurdity (that is Camusian absurdity) of dancing wins hands down.

[Caro]

Camusian absurdity

and that'd be a pleonasm. ;)

PS: feel free to forward this to the pedant's corner :D

[Rocky]

Now it'd take some pretty serious and sustained sensible behaviour for me to consider un-buring him and putting him in a more 'friendly' box, shall we say.

Dear God WoodFace... just think, some serious posts and you could be introduced to Caro's 'friendly box'..:wink:

[Gus]

I'm sorry Gus, but this has got to be the 'funniest' thing you have written - all these spelling mistakes in just one post...:rofl:

Amoir and Kate dnacing a jave fusion called Jamgo. The peolle amdit they are the best instriuctors because of their muisc knowledge but there will alwys be excpstions to teh rules ...

Have you got a faulty keyboard or some kind of special numpty glasses goin on or what??

All the above ... its called too much baracrdi and coke, trying to focus on doing my accounts on the other PC, half asleep but mostly being a cr@p typist and not having the good manners to spell check before I post .... sorry :blush:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Think I might just invent my own language
good idea, you're half way there already :)

[Gus]

Well the obvious glaring exception of Woodface, the current UK double trouble champ, that seems like a pretty solid list. Is this a first; something we actually agree on Gus :wink:Urrrr maybe not. The point I made earlier is that winning a competition does NOT mean that someone is competent to teach or spot what someone is doing wrong.

Not picking on WF in particular, but the non-core events (doube trouble, aerials etc) at the MJ competitions have had variable quality over the years ... but more particularly, there have been winners of the main freestyle competitions have admitted that they couldn't tell someone else to dance as they do. Old story/fable is that a previous (succesfull) coach of the British swimming team couldn't actualy swim. :what:

[StokeBloke]

Urrrr maybe not. The point I made earlier is that winning a competition does NOT mean that someone is competent to teach or spot what someone is doing wrong.

Not picking on WF in particular, but the non-core events (doube trouble, aerials etc) at the MJ competitions have had variable quality over the years ... but more particularly, there have been winners of the main freestyle competitions have admitted that they couldn't tell someone else to dance as they do. Old story/fable is that a previous (succesfull) coach of the British swimming team couldn't actualy swim. :what:
Of course Gus, how very silly of me to even consider that you may agree with something I said. I'm sure there may come a day when you are able to get over yourself and actually discuss things reasonably without being so deliberately obtuse; although I won't hold my breath ;)

[Gus]

Of course Gus, how very silly of me to even consider that you may agree with something I said. I'm sure there may come a day when you are able to get over yourself and actually discuss things reasonably without being so deliberately obtuse; although I won't hold my breath ;)Sorry to dissapoint ... but I don't see what is obtuse. I'm proffering my opinion:flower: :flower:

My view is FWIW that just being able to do something does not neccesarily mean you can teach something. A point that had been mooted elsewhere. Is this something you disagree with ... or just disagree with me expressing a view?

Now remembering why I escaped from Stoke :rolleyes:

[StokeBloke]

Is it important to know the experience / expertise of the person making the post?
{snip}
There has always got to be room for all to voice their opinion, but if someone is new to the game are they likely to not recognise the wise words of the Oracle and instead be persuaded by comments by any miscellaneous numpty?


Sorry to dissapoint ... but I don't see what is obtuse. I'm proffering my opinion:flower: :flower:

My view is FWIW that just being able to do something does not neccesarily mean you can teach something. A point that had been mooted elsewhere. Is this something you disagree with ... or just disagree with me expressing a view?
When you started this thread there was no mention in your post of some one's credentials relying solely on their ability to teach. When drawing up a list of people with expertise, I would have thought that winning a championship at national level would at least qualify that person to discuss the matter with a modicum of authority; rather than marking them out as a miscellaneous numpty.

It would seem by your earlier derogatory comments about 'quality' of entrants in competitions that this is not the case. Some may even say it was a rather cheap shot at a worthy winner. I was at the championships and saw WF win - remind me, we're you there? Only I don't recall seeing you watching or indeed competing in any of the finals. Woodface is many things, but he is certainly not a miscellaneous numpty when it comes to dancing double trouble. But as that doesn't fit your argument there is a need to realign the goalposts a little :rolleyes:

So I stand by what I said, in my opinion you are just being obtuse. Grind whatever little axe you have with me by all means, but try to keep your contrary stance at least consistent, even if you can't manage plausible. Maybe I'm reading this all wrong, maybe it is this just another half baked, Bacardi fuelled rant? If so I'm sure Woodface will forgive you; he's a pretty decent fella in real life you know.

I have no problem with you having and expressing your views Gus - however off the wall and crass they may be.

Now remembering why I escaped from Stoke :rolleyes:
Such a shame Gus, because we all miss you so very very much :hug:

[Gus]

Some may even say it was a rather cheap shot at a worthy winner. I was at the championships and saw WF win - remind me, we're you there? Only I don't recall seeing you watching or indeed competing in any of the finals. Woodface is many things, but he is certainly not a miscellaneous numpty when it comes to dancing double trouble. But as that doesn't fit your argument there is a need to realign the goalposts a little :rolleyes: Sorry ... I thought I specifically said I wasn't having a go at WF (ok, not as well phrased as I intended ... but I've got no axe to grind with the chap) ... in fact the whole of the posting was about the possibility that some competition winners may not be able to teach. Hmmm ... logic not your strong point ... not a St Jospeh's student were we? little stokie joke


Actually ... good point raised about the original supposition .... i.e. is it experience that matters when instructing other. Thinking back to those that I've learnt most from, only about half of them have competed ... but the unifying thing was that they either taught me something new or could identify where I was going wrong.

Some have many years of expereince, e.g. Amir, Roger C ... whereas some where dancers very new to the scene .. Pistol Pete, Jive Brummie and Nadine all had far less MJ experience than me but were able to teach/show me things that really helped me to improve. So .. maybe its not about experience per se but about being able to understand the pupil and teach. Now ... how the heck do you identify and authenticate that? :confused:

[NZ Monkey]

Actually ... good point raised about the original supposition .... i.e. is it experience that matters when instructing other. Thinking back to those that I've learnt most from, only about half of them have competed ... but the unifying thing was that they either taught me something new or could identify where I was going wrong.

Some have many years of expereince, e.g. Amir, Roger C ... whereas some where dancers very new to the scene .. Pistol Pete, Jive Brummie and Nadine all had far less MJ experience than me but were able to teach/show me things that really helped me to improve. So .. maybe its not about experience per se but about being able to understand the pupil and teach. Now ... how the heck do you identify and authenticate that? :confused::yeah: I'm a teacher in other aspects of my life and I can vouch that teaching and doing are different skills.

I saw an episode of Extreme House Makeover (not sure if you get that in the UK - it's feel good American television charity program) last night where the subject was an ex-professional ballet dancer who had contracted cerebral palsy and could now only walk with difficulty. She was still able to teach ballet.

Teaching requires understanding of the subject and empathy with the students. Usually the understanding comes with the ability to do it anyway but not always so. Empathy has nothing to do with either understanding or ability.

[Caro]

Back to the subject of this thread...


The point I made earlier is that winning a competition does NOT mean that someone is competent to teach or spot what someone is doing wrong.


That is sadly all so true. Technique is only one aspect of judging in a competition, and other criterias such as showmanship can make a technically weak couple win over a much sharper couple, who just aren't great performers.

Then to be a good teacher, you need not only to understand and articulate technique, but more importantly to pass it on to people who might not have the same abilities as yourself (therefore I'd argue it's more difficult for somebody who has 'talent' and picks up dancing technique very easily to be a good teacher, than somebody who has never been particularly fast at learning dancing - there are exceptions of course).

[Caro]

Can see where your comming from but there are alot of cases where this isn't true. Cetral Alex and Jamie are two examples from a fairly long list. Im sure Jordan, Tatiana and the WCS lot pick things up really quick. Just makes them naturally talented were as some of us have to work harder for the same things.

{snip bits about WF and DT}


In the case of Jamie and CentraAlex, I can't comment, as I have never been taught by them.
However I know for sure that J&T went through some pretty extensive training both in judging and teaching... So if even the best get trained to teach... :whistle:

And please WF we all know by now that you won the DT, can we not make this thread about you - you've explained what your stance is based on your experience many times already. My post, although inspired from a real case of comp winner starting teaching without the basic technique right, wasn't refering to you. At all. :rolleyes:

[straycat]

Teaching requires understanding of the subject and empathy with the students. Usually the understanding comes with the ability to do it anyway but not always so. Empathy has nothing to do with either understanding or ability.
:yeah:
It helps a great deal to have an understanding of the processes one went through to learn something.

I'm pretty good at teaching people to juggle, because I understand how I learned it, and I can break it down very well for people.

I cannot teach people about computers, even though I've been using 'em intensively for over 24 years. I learned a great deal of it by total immersion in the subject, and I now assume far too much background knowledge that many people do not have - I struggle to explain things to people who don't have that knowledge, and I often struggle to break things down to a level which people will find useful.

On the juggling front again - I once met a man named Kit Summers - who had been a top professional performer. Then he had a bad accident, which left him brain-damaged - what he lost was all his motor skills, and it was as if he'd 'forgotten' every single movement skill he'd ever learned. So he had to learn again how to walk, talk, feed himself etc... and juggle. Again. His claim is that someone who has had to learn to juggle, from scratch, to a high standard, twice, he is uniquely qualified to teach others.

I don't know what he'd have been like without the accident, and it was a very hard price to pay, but he's certainly an outstanding teacher now. :respect:

[David Franklin]

But...... having said all of that, I don't feel I would be missplaced to tell someone what I thought looked good or help them investigate what was going wrong with a DT dance. Would prob be comfortable teaching a small double trouble routine to a class as well.No I think that's fair enough. But I bet you'd get far better with experience.

I've told this story before, but Andy and Rena (JumpNJive) have won several airsteps competitions, and taught aerials for many years. Every year they would teach a "set" of seven workshops comprising about 50 aerials in total. And my experience of their teaching was that it was excellent. They had a lot of understanding of how to get different couples to do the moves properly, and how different moves would work differently for different people. (Some moves are much easier if the man isn't much bigger than the girl, for some it's the complete opposite, etc.)

Then they added an eighth workshop of "new" moves. And (IMHO), their teaching of it was much worse than the seven they'd been doing for years. Not because they couldn't do the moves themselves. But because they hadn't yet gained the experience of finding out how different, less technically proficient couples would manage. So even with couples who've already been teaching for years and year, experience matters.

One caveat about your teaching double trouble: so far, your explanations about what you did don't exactly give me confidence that you would be good at explaining double trouble to other people. There's a certain amount of truth in what someone else said: if you really didn't have to work in order to win the competition, chances are you can't explain how you did it.

[robd]

Only reason we done DT champs is that the girls thought it would be a laugh and I wanted to make Robd eat his words.


I wish you'd show me these words that I am supposed to eat. I know we had some sparring going on but am sure it wasn't me that suggested you needed to enter the champs to 'prove' yourself.

[ducasi]

But I'm really only replying because I wanted to post this link to some really cool double trouble aerials...

YouTube - sports acrobatics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q082F_GdpA) Cool video, though it looks like they only have three or four tricks which they repeat a few times with slight variations...

[Gadget]

...The forum is abit of pantomime...That's unfortunate.

You may have some insightfull information to pass on. You may have some genius teaching that will help every reader of the forum. You may say something on musicality that everyone sighs and 'clicks' with. You may have ideas and views on Double Trouble dancing that make everyone sit up and listen.... you may...

...but no-one will listen to you or take it seriously because it's all a bit of a pantomime to you. Who wants to learn from the experiance of a comic dame?
{cue andy}

"It's behind you!"


Re: Does expereince matter?
In my opinion, experiance dosn't matter as much as the information given (and the way it's portrayed).

I have learned from people who have just stepped through the door - fresh eyes and beginner questions often lead to some searching for the correct answer and the best way to give it.

I have learned from people who have been dancing all their lives and MJ for most of that - they know what they are teaching and how to teach it.

I have learned more from people who were "better teachers than dancers" than from people who were "better dancers than teachers". I think that experinace only gives you a bredth of knowledge in what to put forward, not in the depth required or how to put it forward.

[straycat]

The forum is abit of pantomime. Everyone gets that. Look at how I rip at Rocky and Andy. They know it's all a laugh and the give it back. Seems the only people who don't realise that is you and Caro. Shame.

And me. I don't seem to 'realise' it either.

[Lee Bartholomew]

That's unfortunate.

You may have some insightfull information to pass on. You may have some genius teaching that will help every reader of the forum. You may say something on musicality that everyone sighs and 'clicks' with. You may have ideas and views on Double Trouble dancing that make everyone sit up and listen.... you may...

...but no-one will listen to you or take it seriously because it's all a bit of a pantomime to you. Who wants to learn from the experiance of a comic dame?
{cue andy}

"It's behind you!"




So you are saying you will only get taken seriously if you are bland, boring, never have a joke, Conform to the same thing as everyone else and say what the majority want to hear?

[Caro]

So you are saying you will only get taken seriously if you are bland, boring, never have a joke, Conform to the same thing as everyone else and say what the majority want to hear?

funnily enough, I wouldn't think of Amir as being "bland, boring, never have a joke, Conform to the same thing as everyone else and say what the majority want to hear". Yet he doesn't seem to get the same kind of reactions that you get... :whistle:

[Lee Bartholomew]

funnily enough, I wouldn't think of Amir as being "bland, boring, never have a joke, Conform to the same thing as everyone else and say what the majority want to hear". Yet he doesn't seem to get the same kind of reactions that you get... :whistle:

Because I post more and a few don't get my sense of humor. :whistle:

Also Amir has been dancing along time and is a well known teacher. If his posts said exactly the same as mine, he wouldn't get grief would he.

[straycat]

Because I post more and a few don't get my sense of humor. :whistle:


Oh - I 'get' your sense of humour - it's not what I'd call subtle. I just see it as (for the most part) somewhat puerile.



Also Amir has been dancing along time and is a well known teacher. If his posts said exactly the same as mine, he wouldn't get grief would he.
Just this once, I'll give in to the pantomime thang.

Just this once.

Oh, Yes He Would....

[Caro]

If his posts said exactly the same as mine

but that's about as relevant as talking about the time when chicken will get teeth ;)

[Lee Bartholomew]

but that's about as relevant as talking about the time when chicken will get teeth ;)

But it's true.

[straycat]

But it's true.

Oh no it....

Ahem.

I think you'll find it isn't. Actually, you won't find that because it's hard to enviasge him doing anything of the kind - but in general, if a respected figure started coming out with that kind of rubbish on such a regular basis, I think you'd be stunned at how fast people lost respect for them. People's respect is very hard to earn, and very easy to lose.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Also Amir has been dancing along time and is a well known teacher. If his posts said exactly the same as mine, he wouldn't get grief would he.

Yes, he'd get grief for posting like Woodface :)

[Lee Bartholomew]

Give me one example of one of these posts.

[Caro]

Give me one example of one of these posts.

WAKE UP WF, that's exactly what this is about... But since you don't get it, I'll type it all clear for you: you won't find any idiotic post from Amir!

Now if you want to see a post full of wit, childish humour(TM) and knowledge, I suggest to look at ANY of his posts!!!

[nebula]

Sorry to get in on your very meaningful conversation, WoodFace, StrayCat and Caro, but as a newer member, I really would like to see some dance-related post exchanges on the forum dedicated to ... erm... dance?... Would you mind taking your remarks out of this thread, and maybe outside?...

[Caro]

Would you mind taking your remarks out of this thread, and maybe outside?...

that's the most valid point in the past few pages of this thread Nebula, and FYI I have already asked for it. :flower:

[straycat]

Sorry to get in on your very meaningful conversation, WoodFace, StrayCat and Caro, but as a newer member, I really would like to see some dance-related post exchanges on the forum dedicated to ... erm... dance?... Would you mind taking your remarks out of this thread, and maybe outside?...

Fair point. I stand admonished. :blush:

[David Franklin]

I think you'll find it isn't. Actually, you won't find that because it's hard to enviasge him doing anything of the kind - but in general, if a respected figure started coming out with that kind of rubbish on such a regular basis, I think you'd be stunned at how fast people lost respect for them. People's respect is very hard to earn, and very easy to lose.To prove the point, I can think of one fairly obvious forumite (not Amir!) who (in the real world) is a well respected teacher and has won competitions, but whose posts here have caused responses along the lines of "Does Mike Ellard know what you're posting? Because you're an embarrassment to Ceroc." (not an exact quote).

[nebula]

To prove the point, I can think of one fairly obvious forumite (not Amir!) who (in the real world) is a well respected teacher and has won competitions, but whose posts here have caused responses along the lines of "Does Mike Ellard know what you're posting? Because you're an embarrassment to Ceroc." (not an exact quote).

Are we talking about his experience - as per this thread's OK, long forgotten title, or about the tone of his posts?

[David Franklin]

Are we talking about his experience - as per this thread's OK, long forgotten title, or about the tone of his posts?Both.

To relate it back to the start of the thread: if two people are debating a point coherently, with neither giving ground, then you should probably listen to the person with greater experience.

But if one person's posts are nonsensical, abusive or causing trouble for the sake of it, they don't get a pass on that behaviour because of their real-world experience.

[straycat]

Are we talking about his experience - as per this thread's OK, long forgotten title, or about the tone of his posts?

Ooooh. Careful. It all starts like this - with a sensible question that's a veering maybe a tiny bit off-topic, and then suddenly.... you're in the middle of a front-line skirmish in Forum War XXIXV, wondering how on earth you got there, and trying to prise a winning retort out of the cold dead fingers of a fallen comrade-in-arms...

ahem.

Back vaguely on topic. With a completely reliable, barely-remembered story I heard from someone-or-other.**
At one of the big swing-dance camps, a few years back, they got in an superb (and award-winning) performance team to demonstrate & teach - only to find that while their performance skills were top-notch, as teachers they were pretty dire. Cue quite a few complaints.

Several years on, I know of one member of said group who is now a superb teacher. Just goes to show what others have been saying on the thread - teaching is a very distinct skill, and doesn't automatically come with dance ability.

**Actually, I think it might have been Nina.

[Lee Bartholomew]

If I was to give the following advice on Aerials -

1) ensure you are warmed up

2) Remember your back is very easy to damage

3) Ensure saftey at all times

4) do not push past what feels comfortable

5) only do them with a dance partner you have practised them with.


Would you or do you think, any aerial expert would disagree with this advice.

Do you think it would be invalid advice because it has come from me?

[straycat]

If I was to give the following advice on Aerials -

[advice]

Would you or do you think, any aerial expert would disagree with this advice.
Do you think it would be invalid advice because it has come from me?

I was about to say that I would ignore the source**, and treat the advice on its own merits, but that's not entirely true.

To be completely honest, turning this around, if someone I considered to be a god-like aerial expert gave me this advice, I'd lose a lot of respect for them.

With a less experienced person giving the advice, I'd take that into account and cut them some slack.

**I mean, of course, ignore who the source is***

***unless the source was ignoring me :whistle:

[nebula]

Several years on, I know of one member of said group who is now a superb teacher. Just goes to show what others have been saying on the thread - teaching is a very distinct skill, and doesn't automatically come with dance ability.

**Actually, I think it might have been Nina.
I thought we were talking about giving advice? As a trainer myself (nothing to do with dance, I am afraid, I am too impatient, probably, to ever be a dance teacher!!!), I know it's a hell of a lot of difference to go and do it, and to stand in front of the group for x amount of time and try to explain what you are doing. But ... and I think it's a big but... say, I am in the training done by somebody else - and I am not an expert, by any means, but do know something - or other, about the subject. And I see that somebody is struggling with a concept, or whatever. Should I be ignored if I offer advice on how to do it because I AM NOT A TEACHER? :mad: Maybe. :blush: Or maybe I can see it from another point of view - not from the lofty heights of esteemed tutor, who's done it the same way for donkey's years.
When advice is offered, it is up to recepient to decide whether to take it up or not. And I wouldn't come to the same person and say - don't listen to his advice, as he's rubbish, listen to mine, as I am better/more experienced/teacher, etc, etc, etc... Would you? :really:

[Dreadful Scathe]

When advice is offered, it is up to recepient to decide whether to take it up or not. And I wouldn't come to the same person and say - don't listen to his advice, as he's rubbish, listen to mine, as I am better/more experienced/teacher, etc, etc, etc... Would you? :really:

Rocky would. Dunno about everyone else :)

[straycat]

When advice is offered, it is up to recepient to decide whether to take it up or not. And I wouldn't come to the same person and say - don't listen to his advice, as he's rubbish, listen to mine, as I am better/more experienced/teacher, etc, etc, etc... Would you? :really:

Would I? If I'm completely honest, I can see situations where I'd do this, yes. Maybe with more diplomacy, and I'd make every effort not to criticise the other advice-giving party, but if, within my own sphere of expertise, I saw advice being given which I considered to be dangerous, or that could result in serious problems for the recipient, or would leave them gravely misinformed, then yes. I can see myself trying to rectify that.

[nebula]

Would I? If I'm completely honest, I can see situations where I'd do this, yes. Maybe with more diplomacy, and I'd make every effort not to criticise the other advice-giving party, but if, within my own sphere of expertise, I saw advice being given which I considered to be dangerous, or that could result in serious problems for the recipient, or would leave them gravely misinformed, then yes. I can see myself trying to rectify that.
As we are talking about the matter of experience here, would you honestly come up to the person and say that JUST because YOU are more experienced, they should listen to your advice instead? If you would do it diplomatically, and NOT criticising another party, then you are just giving ANOTHER advice. Which the recepient, in full possession of his/her wits, is free to accept or ignore just like the first one.

[Lee Bartholomew]

As we are talking about the matter of experience here, would you honestly come up to the person and say that JUST because YOU are more experienced, they should listen to your advice instead? If you would do it diplomatically, and NOT criticising another party, then you are just giving ANOTHER advice. Which the recepient, in full possession of his/her wits, is free to accept or ignore just like the first one.


Thing is about advice on the forum is there are too many people willing to just shoot down that advice for the hell of it.

Some of it's very valid advice.

I once advised people that spotting doesn't work for everyone. I get grief all the time from that post no matter how true it was.

[straycat]

As we are talking about the matter of experience here, would you honestly come up to the person and say that JUST because YOU are more experienced, they should listen to your advice instead?

Probably not - for a start - how would most people know whether I was the more experienced party? The advice would have to speak for itself - and being the more experienced party, I would hope that my advice would do just that. Bearing in mind that the other party would have to have come up with something I considered pretty dire for me to be doing this.



If you would do it diplomatically, and NOT criticising another party, then you are just giving ANOTHER advice. Which the recepient, in full possession of his/her wits, is free to accept or ignore just like the first one.

Indeed they are. My pride is not at stake in terms of influencing their actions. It would simply be at stake if I did nothing and left them ignorant of what I consider to be the facts.

[nebula]

Thing is about advice on the forum is there are too many people willing to just shoot down that advice for the hell of it.

Some of it's very valid advice.

I once advised people that spotting doesn't work for everyone. I get grief all the time from that post no matter how true it was.
Spotting? Sorry, I am not sure in what context you are employing it here? Is it relevant to the discussion?

[straycat]

Spotting? Sorry, I am not sure in what context you are employing it here? Is it relevant to the discussion?

No :whistle:

[nebula]

Probably not - for a start - how would most people know whether I was the more experienced party? The advice would have to speak for itself - and being the more experienced party, I would hope that my advice would do just that. Bearing in mind that the other party would have to have come up with something I considered pretty dire for me to be doing this.



Indeed they are. My pride is not at stake in terms of influencing their actions. It would simply be at stake if I did nothing and left them ignorant of what I consider to be the facts.

Agreed to both, with the exception that the "facts" might be not be, in fact, facts!!!:flower:

[straycat]

Agreed to both, with the exception that the "facts" might be not be, in fact, facts!!!:flower:

Which is why I qualified it as 'what I consider to be the facts' - there's always the possibility that I'm wrong. :flower:

[nebula]

Which is why I qualified it as 'what I consider to be the facts' - there's always the possibility that I'm wrong. :flower:
Hence the """""""....

[Lee Bartholomew]

Spotting? Sorry, I am not sure in what context you are employing it here? Is it relevant to the discussion?

yes it is


No :whistle:

yes...


Basicly I got told that because Nina had told people to spot and that I told people that spotting doesn't work for some people, I got told I was wrong and the idiot. How could I contradict something someone with tonnes of experiance says. Even got called dangerous for it!!!

It's true though, not everyone does spot when they spin. so no experiance doesn't matter that much because you can still be wrong about something.

[nebula]

yes it is



yes...


Basicly I got told that because Nina had told people to spot and that I told people that spotting doesn't work for some people, I got told I was wrong and the idiot. How could I contradict something someone with tonnes of experiance says. Even got called dangerous for it!!!

It's true though, not everyone does spot when they spin. so no experiance doesn't matter that much because you can still be wrong about something.

It also depended on how you and Nina have phrased your advices.
Did they really call you an idiot to your face? If yes, then your anger is understandable. If not, then you are being rude.

[Lee Bartholomew]

It also depended on how you and Nina have phrased your advices.
Did they really call you an idiot to your face? If yes, then your anger is understandable. If not, then you are being rude.


The thread can be found here.

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/10528-men-multiple-spinning-spotting.html

Resulted in quite a few neg reps too for me.

[straycat]

It also depended on how you and Nina have phrased your advices.
Did they really call you an idiot to your face? If yes, then your anger is understandable. If not, then you are being rude.

Here's the thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/10528-men-multiple-spinning-spotting.html). I'm afraid I'm not going to try and summarise it (partly because I don't have the energy, and partly to avoid any kind of biased account from myself)

[EDIT] Beaten to the punch, I see :D

[David Franklin]

I once advised people that spotting doesn't work for everyone. I get grief all the time from that post no matter how true it was.In fact, your exact words were:


Don't try and spot. Works for some, not for most.

Subtleties of language often seem to escape you, but there is a distinct difference between advising "You don't have to do X" and "Don't do X".

(Incidentally, I thought your "once you throw yourself in to it with force, there is no stopping" advice was far worse, but I don't pretend to be an expert on spinning, so...)

[Lee Bartholomew]

In fact, your exact words were:



Subtleties of language often seem to escape you, but there is a distinct difference between advising "You don't have to do X" and "Don't do X".

(Incidentally, I thought your "once you throw yourself in to it with force, there is no stopping" advice was far worse, but I don't pretend to be an expert on spinning, so...)

Later on in the thread I clarified that point. And so did you (just reading through it again now.

It's true. If you throw yourself in to it with force, it's alot harder to sudenly stop. Laws of physics.

[nebula]

The thread can be found here.

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/10528-men-multiple-spinning-spotting.html

Resulted in quite a few neg reps too for me.
Just looked at the couple of the posts - I think it was the tone of your advice - quite categorical, really - yes, subtlety might be a good thing to learn....:flower:
Having said that Andy shouldn't have jumped on you with such an excruciating response either, so...
... on the other thought ... no more comments from me outside of topic...

[Caro]

At the risk of being told off by Nebula again (:blush: ), once again WF is making this thread about himself, and his past infamous advice.

Surely Woodie (now that I'm not ignoring you anymore, why not getting all familiar while we're at it...), you realise the forum doesn't revolve around you ?

I don't think DJ would be kind enough to put all WF's advice into one, big thread, for us punters to have a fountain of knowledge readily available, by any chance ? :whistle:

PS: giving up on this thread now, I think... yeah it took a while, I know.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Just looked at the couple of the posts - I think it was the tone of your advice - quite categorical, really - yes, subtlety might be a good thing to learn....:flower:
Having said that Andy shouldn't have jumped on you with such an excruciating response either, so...
... on the other thought ... no more comments from me outside of topic...

It is on topic though. Look at the last page and Alex Faulkner agrees with the stuff I put on the first page.

Thats the bloke who teaches the ceroc teachers agrreing with what I said.

Now if Alex had posted that, would he have come in for the same amount of stick or did I get it because I had less experiance than him?

[nebula]

At the risk of being told off by Nebula again (:blush: )

PS: giving up on this thread now, I think... yeah it took a while, I know.

I am not going to tell you off, I am just giving up, too. I think this thread has exhausted the dance experience discussion points.

[nebula]

It is on topic though. Look at the last page and Alex Faulkner agrees with the stuff I put on the first page.

Thats the bloke who teaches the ceroc teachers agrreing with what I said.

Now if Alex had posted that, would he have come in for the same amount of stick or did I get it because I had less experiance than him?


I agree with the tips posted on the first page and with spotting...if you can crack it, it really does help to stop you from getting dizzy and also can help with your balance (because you're not dizzy-talk about state the obv alex!!)
Excuse me - he agreed with what you said?!!! :confused: He surely does :what: approve of spotting as far as I can see - but maybe my grasp of English is not as good as yours...:whistle:
I better stop now, or I'll join Caro and StrayCat and tell myself off for getting involved.

[Lee Bartholomew]

Excuse me - he agreed with what you said?!!! :confused: He surely does :what: approve of spotting as far as I can see - but maybe my grasp of English is not as good as yours...:whistle:
I better stop now, or I'll join Caro and StrayCat and tell myself off for getting involved.


eh???

[straycat]

Now if Alex had posted that, would he have come in for the same amount of stick or did I get it because I had less experiance than him?

If he'd posted exactly what you posted, I personally believe he'd have gotten very similar responses.

Certainly, I personally would have responded in exactly the same way that I responded to you.

And with that, I think I'll join the mass exodus from this thread.

[straycat]

eh???

Missed this one. A quick pre-exodus clarification. Nebula was (I think) pointing out that Alex appeared to be disagreeing with you - not agreeing with you - on the spotting front, and the quote illustrated that point.

This quote.


I agree with the tips posted on the first page and with spotting...if you can crack it, it really does help to stop you from getting dizzy and also can help with your balance

[nebula]

Nebula was (I think) pointing out that Alex appeared to be disagreeing with you - not agreeing with you - on the spotting front, and the quote illustrated that point.

Absolutely correct.

[Gus]

Sorry to get in newer member, I really would like to see some dance-related post exchanges on the forum dedicated to ... erm... dance?... Would you mind taking your remarks out of this thread, and maybe outside?...Therein lies the sadness ... several dancers of great note and wisdom have ceased to post because they felt any true dance related discussion was being buried under purile threads or self-important dweebs who thought their view was the only view. Can't see what they meant. :whistle:

[Gus]

OK ... lets return to the thread ...

MY experience is that the more years I accumulate as a dnacer and a teacher the more I can recognise my limitations and recognise the excellence in others. So .. for those who may not be familiar with the scene can I pass on some of the people who's expertise I hold in high regard:

Amir
Kate
Roger Chin
Chris Taylor
Sue Freeman
Simon Selmon
Nigle & Nina
Paul Warden
Michela
Andy and Rena
Cat
Dave and Lilly
Nelson Rose
Viktor
Marc F


They bring with them a vast range or styles/techniques covering the likes of Tango fusion, aerials, movement, style, balance, swing etc etc. The one thing is common is that they have all demonstrated the ability to educate others and educate well. What more could you ask for? :worthy: