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View Full Version : What Weekender Workshop Level are You?



MartinHarper
20th-May-2007, 11:21 AM
Would detailed descriptions of workshop levels do a better job of separating the wheat from the chaff than the one-word descriptions we are currently subjected to?


Beginner: You are just starting off your journey with Modern Jive, and want to do it right. You find you learn a lot from beginner classes. Dancing in freestyle might feel daunting.
You will learn the basic moves of Modern Jive and how to perform them with confidence in freestyle. You will learn important aspects of dance etiquette.

Intermediate 1: You know a variety of simple left-handed, right-handed, and two-handed moves. You are happy dancing freestyle, but can already tell how much better other dancers are. You are very comfortable in regular beginner classes, and are starting to take intermediate classes. You can spin well both on your own and with a partner. You can lead or follow with both hands, but one hand may feel better than the other. You have danced with your local teacher and may have picked up some valuable feedback that way. You don't yank your partners, or make them feel uncomfortable, and rarely fall over. In freestyle you are aware of other dancers and considerate towards them.
You will add more variety to your dancing, and learn to lead or follow all kinds of movements, from double spins to precise footwork.

Intermediate 2: You have a solid repertoire of moves, including a few "trademark" moves that are more complex or surprising. You also know some close moves, some spinny moves, some travelling moves, some footwork, and some dips. You are still learning from regular intermediate classes, but are now feeling comfortable with that level. You have been to a few weekenders. You recognise the differences between different types of music, but don't know what do with them.
You will learn to dance with more style and better technique. You will also learn the basics of musicality, fitting your dancing to the music.

Post-Intermediate: You have stopped collecting moves, and have started collecting new ways to move. You can dance to a wide variety of music, and your dancing reflects that music. You have been to many weekenders. You are one of the best dancers in your local scene. You can have great dances with international teachers and with complete beginners. You may have started teaching, or competing. Your dancing looks great and feels great. You have learnt the basics of some other dances, but are focused on Modern Jive.
You will learn to perfect your dance technique, hitting great lines and elegant sweeps that match every nuance of the music. Depending on the teachers, you may learn aerials, or drops, or other challenging moves.

Advanced: When you dance, you frequently draw a crowd of onlookers. You are a weekender regular, and one of the best dancers here. You can dance to any music at any speed, but you know which music you like best. All the other Advanced dancers know who you are, probably by name. You no longer have a repertoire of moves: you just dance. If you teach, you have taught at several weekenders. If you compete, you compete at Advanced or Open level. You search out the best national and international teachers for private tuition. You are so connected to your dance partners that it is as if they are an extension of your own body.
You will be taken to the very limit of your abilities. You will be asked to do things that defy the laws of physics. Your teachers will work you hard and give no mercy.

Given the descriptions above, which level of workshop would you take?

David Franklin
20th-May-2007, 11:32 AM
Would detailed descriptions of workshop levels do a better job of separating the wheat from the chaff than the one-word descriptions we are currently subjected to?Yes. But the emphasis is on detailed. Not just the "level", but the content of the course, etc.

If the course was on, say, "hip-hop movement", I'd probably put myself as beginner. While if it was aerials, I'd go for advanced.

Mythical
20th-May-2007, 11:57 AM
I think it'd depend what workshop I was looking at, and wether I wanted to lead or follow (and what time in the morning it was and how hungover I was). Some stuff from all of the first four levels applies, so I'd probably work to the lowest common denominator.

DavidY
20th-May-2007, 12:07 PM
Do you think that organisers would run an "advanced" (according to your description) workshop at a weekender?

It certainly seems unlikely at the likes of Southport/ Ceroc Escape weekends - although I don't have knowledge of other weekends in other dance styles where maybe it's appropriate?

It feels to me that there'd be very few people at that level and they'd be (as it says in the description) looking for private lessons.

So while it's certainly a way to categorise dancers, I wonder if that is a realistic categorisation of a top level weekender workshop?

Lory
20th-May-2007, 12:13 PM
I'm a beginner, I can't 'lead' anything :blush:

Andy McGregor
20th-May-2007, 12:22 PM
Would detailed descriptions of workshop levels do a better job of separating the wheat from the chaff than the one-word descriptions we are currently subjected to?I think this question is indicative of Martin Harper's view of the world. Wheat vs Chaff. In this comparison it's all about good and bad, maybe even useless waste products :mad:

Dancers are neither good or bad. IMHO they are more or less experienced, skilled, etc. We are all on a journey. Some people have progressed further than others on that journey. And some people have a different destination.

Maybe the derogatory comment is the reason that nobody has voted. Nobody wants to place themselves in the "chaff" category - I'm not even sure I want to be "wheat".

Come on Mr Harper, your posts are usually better worded. They are usually wrong in their premise, but this isn't due to lack of intelligence, it's usually due to warped thinking and too often relating MJ to Lindy Hop :wink:

Andy McGregor
20th-May-2007, 12:23 PM
I'm a beginner, I can't 'lead' anything :blush:Apart from leading me into some ebarrassing situations :sick:

Lory
20th-May-2007, 12:48 PM
Apart from leading me into some ebarrassing situations :sick:

:rofl: YOU lead yourself into that one, I clearly remember you rummaging though our underware, trying everything on with great excitement, I was just waiting for an opportune moment to happen and BOY did it happen :eek:

Captured on film and embedded in my memory for ever :sick: :tears:

MartinHarper
20th-May-2007, 01:10 PM
Come on Mr Harper, your posts are usually better worded.

My apologies. In my defence, it's 7am here, and I've not gone to bed yet.
Also, sorry for the occasional lead-centric description. Follows please feel free to "translate".


Do you think that organisers would run an "advanced" (according to your description) workshop at a weekender?

I'm thinking that there are probably around 50 people at JiveAddiction's Southport who could reasonably place themselves in the "advanced" section (please don't ask me to name them). To my mind that's enough to justify a few classes for those people, assuming that they'd find some value in spending time dancing in a study setting with the best partners in the game. A few might need to be gently pushed in the right direction, I guess. And sure, the description is gratuitously intimidating.

Frankie_4711
21st-May-2007, 08:02 AM
I have chosen the post-intermediate category, but as has been said before, it would depend on the workshop content - although most of the workshops that I would want to attend would probably be aimed at dancers of that sort of level anyway eg aerials, drops etc.

MartinHarper
21st-May-2007, 06:21 PM
I picked Intermediate II, but I might try out Post-Intermediate if I felt I could handle it. I also might try an Intermediate I class if I found the subject matter interesting.

Mezzosoprano
21st-May-2007, 06:26 PM
Somewhere in between Intermediate 1 and 2 - I think....but I can't lead so maybe not?

ducasi
21st-May-2007, 08:57 PM
I picked Intermediate II, but I might try out Post-Intermediate if I felt I could handle it. I also might try an Intermediate I class if I found the subject matter interesting.
I'm sort-of the reverse – based on the description of the dancer, I'd call myself "post intermediate" (though if there was a category between Intermediate 2 and it, I'd probably put myself there), but I might still choose to go to a "intermediate 2" class, depending on the content and teacher.

MartinHarper
21st-May-2007, 10:37 PM
Sorry, Mezzosoprano, I just realised I've been unclear in my description.


You can lead or follow with both hands

This meant that you can either lead with both hands (if you're a leader) or follow with both hands (if you're a follower), not that you can do both! I guess this could have been worded better.

Ghost
22nd-May-2007, 01:10 AM
Ok I selected "beginner"

I wouldn't say I can spin well (I don't spin when leading, though that is from choice) and I haven't been to any weekenders :blush:

Trouble
22nd-May-2007, 09:47 AM
it depends on many things as to what level i am.....

1. Time of the month
2. Men around me
3. Teacher
4. Atmosphere
5. If im feeling sexy or not
6. The man im dancing with is attractive or Andy Mcgregor :D
7. Ive had a drink or two :what:
8. My week has been a good one.

These all effect, quite drastically, the level at which i dance.

:flower:

tsh
22nd-May-2007, 10:03 AM
There seems to be a huge gap between intermediate II and post intermediate - maybe it's intentional. Although I'm not sure that my dancing is in the post intermediate category, that is probably the type of class (in MJ) where I'd want to be learning things. I wouldn't necessarily expect the level of the class to be difficult but I would expect to learn and practice concepts that would improve my dancing. That being said, if there was a beginners class by a teacher I respect, I'd be likely to chose that instead.

I don't believe that aerials and drops fit into this grading scheme at all. It's not necessary to be able to dance to do a lift or a drop. I've seen acrobatics taught successfully to complete beginners.

I wouldn't expect classes at these levels on a MJ weekender (although Southport certainly has enough people in the advanced group - but they seem to have an informal semi-class in the blues room to trade ideas) - certainly other styles would use them, but there there is more need for the intermediates to have a chance to focus on moves at about the equivalent of 'jango fundamentals' level (anyone can do them in a class, not so easy to lead with a beginner).

Sean

Sean

straycat
22nd-May-2007, 10:12 AM
It would depend on the workshop. Move-based ones, put me into Inter II. In entirely connection-based or musicality-based workshops I'd put myself into advanced (who - me? Modest?). I'd happily do an Inter I or even beginners' spinning workshop. In the unlikely event of me trying an aerials workshop, I'd seek out the remedial category :really:

It's true that I don't really have a repertoire of moves, but 'just dance' - but then... I never had much of a repertoire of moves, and anyway - I'm a long way from having followed the progression described here.

Anyway - to summarise, if I could, I'd check all the categories. I love to be difficult. :rolleyes:

Dreadful Scathe
22nd-May-2007, 10:20 AM
I would check all the catagories too, depends on a lot of things, style and teacher being the main ones. Also, previous experience with "advanced" classes tell me they're not all that advanced in the MJ world at least :)

Wuzzle
22nd-May-2007, 11:04 AM
I would say am somewhere between R in BeginneR and one of the vowels in intermediate 1 :whistle:

Quite content with learning new gorram shiny stuff :D

Gadget
22nd-May-2007, 01:04 PM
From these descriptions, I don't make it into Intermediate 1 - in this scale I'm a beginner. :D

A lot of emphasis seems to be on external apperance of the dance to others and what your own opinion of your dancing is - In my opinion "ability" is measured by your partners enjoyment :flower:

ducasi
22nd-May-2007, 04:50 PM
From these descriptions, I don't make it into Intermediate 1 - in this scale I'm a beginner. :D

A lot of emphasis seems to be on external apperance of the dance to others and what your own opinion of your dancing is - In my opinion "ability" is measured by your partners enjoyment :flower:
False modesty...

The point of the exercise requires you to form your own opinion of your dancing – when you decide if you are capable of doing a workshop you have to do this, you don't have time to form a focus group with a sample selection of your recent partners.

Also, I don't think the "external appearance" criteria comes in until the last two categories.

Jamie
22nd-May-2007, 05:41 PM
While I match most if not all criteria in MH's Post-Intermediate category, I do match some critera in Advanced. I'd put myself somewhere in the middle. :sick:

Gadget
22nd-May-2007, 05:56 PM
False modesty...
not at all:
Intermediate 1:
You know a variety of simple left-handed, right-handed, and two-handed moves. - I tend not to stick to "moves" and kinna make it up, so I suppose that's a tic.
You are happy dancing freestyle, - tic
but can already tell how much better other dancers are. - I find it hard to tell if dancers are better or worse than I am: I'm normally dancing, so don't get to watch them. But I suppose I know who I would like to steal stuff from... tic
You are very comfortable in regular beginner classes, and are starting to take intermediate classes. - tic
You can spin well both on your own and with a partner. - no tic. I can spin, but I wouldn't say "well". Loose balance easily and can't get the orientation coming out just right.
You can lead or follow with both hands, but one hand may feel better than the other. - no tic. I follow poorly with either hand. And there is no real differential in which hand I lead with - whichever is closest and will do what I want.
You have danced with your local teacher and may have picked up some valuable feedback that way. - tic
You don't yank your partners,[i] - tic
[i] or make them feel uncomfortable, - don't know. I have made a few uncomfortable.
and rarely fall over. - tic
In freestyle you are aware of other dancers - tic
and considerate towards them. - debatable. I keep stealing their space, but I do give it back :wink:
You will add more variety to your dancing, - I don't think I can add any more varity to my dancing.
and learn to lead or follow all kinds of movements, from double spins - tic, but can't follow them very well
... to precise footwork. - big no tic. I dislike precise footwork. With venom.

Don't tic all the boxes - must be beginner.


The point of the exercise requires you to form your own opinion of your dancing – when you decide if you are capable of doing a workshop you have to do this, you don't have time to form a focus group with a sample selection of your recent partners.
I would look at what was being taught (& perhaps who) rather than any 'level' indicator.

I think that the only usefull information on a workshop would be a list of prerequisites - match these, then you can do the workshop. Not a list of prerequisites for a generic level that the workshop then tries to match: you don't need that middle man.

MartinHarper
22nd-May-2007, 06:23 PM
Jamie, Wuzzle, et al, feel free to select whichever category feels closest to your skill level. That's what you'd do in the real world, right?


no tic. I follow poorly with either hand.

Yeah, this was unclear. To repeat myself:


This meant that you can either lead with both hands (if you're a leader) or follow with both hands (if you're a follower), not that you can do both!

Shows how much well thought out wording matters. I deliberately didn't include knowledge of the opposite role in the descriptions; I know plenty of Advanced dancers who can only dance one role, and plenty of Beginner dancers who can dance both.


... to precise footwork. - big no tic. I dislike precise footwork. With venom. .... Don't tic all the boxes - must be beginner.

Well, if that's how you feel, and you'd choose to take Beginner-level workshops for those reasons, please do tick "beginner" in the poll. After all, that's the point of the exercise. We're all different.

Ghost
22nd-May-2007, 09:27 PM
Jamie, Wuzzle, et al, feel free to select whichever category feels closest to your skill level. That's what you'd do in the real world, right?
Ok assuming this sytem was incorporated coherently eg Teacher A's Int1 class isn't harder than Teacher B's Int 2 class :rolleyes:

I'd get a weekended dvd and look at what was taught in the different levels. I'd then try out some of the concepts / moves with friends and then freestyle. I'd ask people who know me and who have been how they found the various levels and where they thought I'd fit.

At the weekender I'd sit in and watch a few workshops to check I'd gauged the level correctly. I'd then do a workshop one level below where I thought I was. Provided that went fine, then I'd do workshops at the level that I was at.

(This is pretty much what I did with Jango)

Jamie
23rd-May-2007, 12:37 AM
I just dive right in and have a go at anything, unless of course it's a different dance style I've never done, but MJ, I just have a go at anything, even if it says "only for people with 15+ years of experience" or whatever. :D

Freudian Hips
23rd-May-2007, 02:29 PM
I just dive right in and have a go at anything, unless of course it's a different dance style I've never done, but MJ, I just have a go at anything, even if it says "only for people with 15+ years of experience" or whatever. :D


:yeah:

I try to come from the "have no fear" school of dance.
In terms of personal damage, the floor can only be about 6 foot away and if I look like an idiot - so???

I don't think I have ever held anybody else's learning back. If I ever have, please PM me and I shall apologise profusely :flower:

I hopefully still have many years of dance left in me but my fitness (strength and flexibility) is already decreasing :tears: and my ability to take on new forms and step structures will, no doubt, reduce :tears: :tears: If I really want to do something, this is not the time to hold back! :clap: :clap: :clap:

Rachel
29th-May-2007, 12:12 AM
I would check all the catagories too, depends on a lot of things, style and teacher being the main ones. Also, previous experience with "advanced" classes tell me they're not all that advanced in the MJ world at least :)I completely agree with this. Based on the dancer descriptions, I'd put myself at Intermediate 2. But have you ever seen a modern jive workshop aimed specifically at dancers who fit these descriptions of post-intermediate and advanced level?

(This is not a rhetorical question, I'm genuinely curious. For example, anyone who matches either post-intermediate or advanced - what would you actually want to learn? Are there workshops available for you in mj??)

Most 'advanced' mj workshops seem to be about moves/drops, etc, and, if I'd wished to do those, I wouldn't hesitate to try them. But I'd think I'd learn a hell of a lot more from early intermediate connection/musicality/style workshops. Again, depends on the teacher...

Rachel

NZ Monkey
29th-May-2007, 01:09 AM
Most 'advanced' mj workshops seem to be about moves/drops, etc, and, if I'd wished to do those, I wouldn't hesitate to try them. But I'd think I'd learn a hell of a lot more from early intermediate connection/musicality/style workshops. Again, depends on the teacher...

Rachel:yeah:

I won't hesitate to put myself in an advanced class for MJ at a weekender as my experience is that they are not that difficult if you have solid basic technique (not necessarily great, just solid...). I don't match the description posted of an advanced dancer by any stretch of the imagination though. :(

Musicallity classes are usually worth doing regardless of your ability, and because they tend to use only very simple moves for illustration it's very unlikely you'd be holding anyone else back by attending even if you are quite new.

I wouldn't try anything more than an intermediate WCS or Jango workshop. Anything else would find me in the beginner classes (unless it's Lindy, in which case I'll be at the bar :na: ).

I think there's a bit of a stigma associated with considering yourself an ''advanced'' dancer. I've heard so many people say that they're always still learning and only consider themselves beginners, including a couple of highly rated profesionals I can think of.

I don't doubt that they're telling the truth when they say this. We're all always still learning if we keep an open mind. If you're placing in professional divisions of large internertional competitions though, chances are you're not a beginner. I'd go as far to say that if anyone could be considered advanced (or super/uber/ultra advanced).....it'd *have* to be them.

At the end of the day the label *advanced* is just an arbitrary statement of ability relative to others around you. Nobody has any problems with the definitions of beginner and intermediate, but we need some label for those clearly more able than the typical intermediate dancer if we're going to talk about them in the same vein. Calling them endless derivates of intermediate 2, 3, post intermediate etc seems a little like false modesty to me in many ways.

MartinHarper
29th-May-2007, 02:13 PM
Have you ever seen a modern jive workshop aimed specifically at dancers who fit these descriptions of post-intermediate and advanced level?

Not me. I have seen post-intermediate and advanced MJ dancers (IMO) in workshops. I agree it seems like an open question as to whether there's even any demand for that level of workshop in MJ.

Ghost
29th-May-2007, 05:39 PM
I think there's a bit of a stigma associated with considering yourself an ''advanced'' dancer. I've heard so many people say that they're always still learning and only consider themselves beginners, including a couple of highly rated profesionals I can think of.

I don't doubt that they're telling the truth when they say this. We're all always still learning if we keep an open mind. If you're placing in professional divisions of large internertional competitions though, chances are you're not a beginner. I'd go as far to say that if anyone could be considered advanced (or super/uber/ultra advanced).....it'd *have* to be them.

At the end of the day the label *advanced* is just an arbitrary statement of ability relative to others around you. Nobody has any problems with the definitions of beginner and intermediate, but we need some label for those clearly more able than the typical intermediate dancer if we're going to talk about them in the same vein. Calling them endless derivates of intermediate 2, 3, post intermediate etc seems a little like false modesty to me in many ways.

Good points

"So when do I get a belt?
Already got belt Julie-san.
No, no - y'know, brown belt, black belt?
*sigh* Why need belt Julie-san?
So everyone will know how good I am
You know how good you are - nothing else matters"
Mr Miyagi and Julie, Karate Kid 4

If you're really good enough to be doing classes at Martin's "advanced level", you don't need a label telling you they're "advanced classes". Likewise if you really are that good, you don't need to call yourself "advanced". The stigma, such as it is, seems to be in calling yourself advanced. There's no real issue with calling others advanced that I can see.

Ghost
29th-May-2007, 07:49 PM
If a worshop was set at "Advanced" and only beginners turned up, would it be cancelled or taught as a begginners class?

If a workshop was set as "Beginner" and only Advanced turned up would it be taught at a higher level (I'm guessing lack of prepared material would be a bigger barrier here) or still at Beginner?

If a workshop was set as "Beginner" and mainly Advanced turned up with some Beginners would it be taught at a slightly higher level assuming the Advanced could carry the Beginners or would it remain a Beginners Class?

I'm wondering if the categories for workshops are more related to the highest potential the teacher is prepared to teach (maybe one level lower?) and in reality are then adjusted on the day depending on who actually turns up. The categories themselves attempt to stop people from below that level turning up, but don't enforce it and indeed are ignored by some.

MartinHarper
7th-June-2007, 11:59 PM
If a worshop was set at "Advanced" and only beginners turned up, would it be cancelled or taught as a beginners class?

I'm confident that with detailed descriptions like this, you would not find large numbers of beginners turning up to an advanced class. That's been my experience with Lindy.


The categories themselves attempt to stop people from below that level turning up, but don't enforce it and indeed are ignored by some.

The categories are really an attempt to help people pick the groups where they'll learn stuff that they'll benefit the most from. Carrot, not stick. Obviously good teachers will adapt based on how their students are doing, for all kinds of reasons (tiredness, previous classes, luck, teacher misjudged the material, etc). However, they shouldn't have to adapt quite as much as they do now.

Enforcement is possible too (and much easier than with vague descriptions like "experienced dancers only"), but I think that's a separate discussion.