Does Ceroc (HQ) know how to run its business?

[Gus]

Sparked by some of the rather harsh comments made in a few other threads (e.g. BigBird real?), I was wondering what the view is on Ceroc(tm) as a business.

My personal experience during 1998 - 2002 was not that favourable. I think it was a period of developement following the Great Breakaway when Ceroc realised it needed to be better managed. Unfortunately this meant that despite the mass of paperwork that was pushed out, not of all it was conducive to helping franchiseess or crew. There were some very good things coming out. The franchisee guide was a good piece of work and the early DJ playlists were usefull. However, it was the lack of support for franchisees, restrictions and the lack of marketing out oustide of London that caused a lot of problems.

Now, how have things changed? There seem to be more 'professionaly' trained people involved, and of course Mike is an expereinced and talented business man .... but is Ceroc a better 'buisiness' ... i.e. is it making more money, expanding, better operating processes, developing better brand awareness etc

[Andy McGregor]

.... but is Ceroc a better 'buisiness' ... i.e. is it making more money, expanding, better operating processes, developing better brand awareness etcIMHO, us independent organisers should not be telling Ceroc how to run its business. What would there be in it for us if we gave them the right advice* :whistle:


*Thankfully, there's so much arrogance around in some parts of Ceroc, I don't think they'd listen :wink:

[bigdjiver]

It is evident that H.Q. does know how to run its business, but that does not mean that it could not improve. I believe that there are very few people that could walk into Ceroc, take charge, and instantly run it better. I have no idea who those few would be.

There are many in this world that life to run their own business. There are a few that just want to run a business. The former tend to work from passion, but not to listen, it is their business, run their way.
The latter will learn from anyone and anywhere. The business is its own entity. (This is the way the law views public limited companies.) it is the business view from the Dragons Den. Buy it, build it, sell it, move on.


...*Thankfully, there's so much arrogance around in some parts of Ceroc, I don't think they'd listen :wink:Alas, in my limited experience I have seen some examples of arrogance from all levels of Ceroc. They have my sympathy. The management has to endure a constant barrage of ill-informed criticism, and it is easier just to switch it all off and chase away the critics.

[TA Guy]

I think Ceroc was just ticking over for a long time. The breakaways were not surprizing, the support outside of London was woeful, truly woeful, and the franchise commissions horrendous. Ceroc exploited them and Ceroc got what it deserved.
In fact, I always get the impression that Ceroc can't make up it's mind whether they are a national brand, or really just a large franchise in London.
It will prolly always be that way while the owner of 'Ceroc' also runs the London franchises.

On top of that, my perception is that Mr. Cronin lost his drive and just got a bit bored with it all.

Even with all that, you cannot claim that Ceroc were anything other than excellent at what they did for a long, long time.

Now, I see someone who has brought more drive and more purpose taking over. What the outcome will be, who knows, but so far, what with Utopia (OK, Ceroc are minority 'shareholders'... but even so), the escape weekenders, the rest and the sounds coming out of Ceroc it looks like Ceroc have been rejuvenated. Who knows what ME has in store for the future ?

[Gus]

On top of that, my perception is that Mr. Cronin lost his drive and just got a bit bored with it all.Like anyone else I'd be guessing, but I don't think that James got bored with it. More likely he probabnly found the world he had created a far nastier place than he imagined. He was stabbed in the back by someone he brought in to help develop the franchisee system, then had to contend with the serious real life business issues that arose once people saw 'Ceroc' and wanted a piece of the action but didnt want to be part of Ceroc. Given his deep Christian beliefs I guess he just found it hard to deal with or figure what people would do next. In the long term matbe Mike stepping in will be seen as a 'good' thing, but I don't think James and Janey's contribution should be underestimated.

[Billi Wiz]

My 1st Comment on this Forum ever...

It may be just my own personal experience but I find the ceroc venues I've visited in the North-East could do with some People-skills training... Or just learning to smile perhaps..

At the moment My partner & I are giving the Newcastle venue a miss after being spoken to in a downright agressive fashion by the Bar Manager there... Not what we expect after paying £14 between us to get in plus about another £10 in travel/drinks...

Dancing is about people coming together to share a positive experience...

[fletch]

My 1st Comment on this Forum ever...

It may be just my own personal experience but I find the ceroc venues I've visited in the North-East could do with some People-skills training... Or just learning to smile perhaps..

At the moment My partner & I are giving the Newcastle venue a miss after being spoken to in a downright agressive fashion by the Bar Manager there... Not what we expect after paying £14 between us to get in plus about another £10 in travel/drinks...

Dancing is about people coming together to share a positive experience...

firstly welcome to the forum Billi Wiz :flower:

It was mentioned recenly weather there could/should be a place where punter/taxi's/teachers etc could go to air there concerns within Ceroc, if there were issues that weren't been looked at localy, I still think this is a good idea :flower:

[under par]

firstly welcome to the forum Billi Wiz :flower:
Welcome Billi Wiz hope you hang around and enjoy the forum:cheers:



It was mentioned recenly weather there could/should be a place where punter/taxi's/teachers etc could go to air there concerns within Ceroc, if there were issues that weren't been looked at localy, I still think this is a good idea :flower:


How about a ceroc rant line.... freefone 0800 CEROC .:yeah:

[bigdjiver]

... I was wondering what the view is on Ceroc(tm) as a business. ...
One of my clients was an airline ticket sales franchise. I draw from that, and from reading. I believe that Ceroc has been weak on marketing and on intellectual property rights.

A business format franchise provides an entire system of doing business. It was this model I was working to when I posted that Ceroc should provide instructions on busking and appropriate equipment. The ticket franchise provided business training, and a complete computer system, hardware, software, training and support. Their franchise sold know-how. That know-how was concentrated, immutably, in the computer system.

Expertise being what they were selling, they had to own it.The business manual was mostly the help file and the coding of that system. The intellectual property rights were covered by copyright. The value of the business was mostly in that software.


## "I look upon McDonalds as a model for every small business because it can do in its 14,000 stores what most of us can't do in one!" Remember James Cronin's quote "Ceroc is the McDonalds of dance."?
One of the reasons for Tesco's success is that they collect data on their customers, and "data-mine" it.

## "If you know who your customer is, - demographics - you can find out why he buys - psychographics."
I suggested long ago to M.E. that the membership form should ask some basic questions about previous dance history. We could ask their favourite colour too ...

## "IBM blue ... that shade of blue has an extraordinarily high appeal and preference to IBM's Central Demographic Model." "... orange is at the opposite end ..."

## From "The E-myth revisited" by Michael E. Gerber. This book suggests that owners of small businesses should run their business as though they were going to franchise it. Along the way he has a lot to say about how to make a franchise business work. (Chap 9 onwards)

[straycat]

My 1st Comment on this Forum ever...

It may be just my own personal experience but I find the ceroc venues I've visited in the North-East could do with some People-skills training... Or just learning to smile perhaps..

At the moment My partner & I are giving the Newcastle venue a miss after being spoken to in a downright agressive fashion by the Bar Manager there... Not what we expect after paying £14 between us to get in plus about another £10 in travel/drinks...

Dancing is about people coming together to share a positive experience...

Out of interest, was this Blackfriars, or another venue? I've never had any problem with the Blackfriars bar staff (OK - so they can get a little ... grouchy ... if one doesn't leave promptly enough at the end of an evening)

Presumably it wasn't a member of the Ceroc staff who behaved in this way (not that this fact would make it any less unpleasant for you :() - have you have a word with the venue organiser?

[Lou]

One of the reasons for Tesco's success is that they collect data on their customers, and "data-mine" it.
Now, all we have to do is find some business intelligence specialists with experience of dancing. Hmmm.... shouldn't be too hard.... :whistle:

[Dreadful Scathe]

business intelligence specialist = oxymoron organiser

[Trousers]

It is evident that H.Q. does know how to run its business
Are they the same people that told you you couldn't do air steps anymore, because you seemed fair dinkum upset by that directive about how they wanted their business run.

From the debate that caused I'm surprised you said that.

[bigdjiver]

Are they the same people that told you you couldn't do air steps anymore, because you seemed fair dinkum upset by that directive about how they wanted their business run.

From the debate that caused I'm surprised you said that.They know how to run their business their way, and they have many reasons to congratulate themselves. It would be far easier to change things for the worse than for the better. They appear to be following the marketing dictum to serve their existing customers with their moves into other dance styles and weekenders. To me they are running the risk of doing this at the expense of acquiring new customers. It seems to me the essence of a training business to be constantly acquiring new people to train, and constantly trying to get better at retaining them. I do not think that they are using management information systems adequately.

[StokeBloke]

If you are discussing this in a purely business merits way, then a quick look at the public accounts shows that they have, and maintain, a very nice year on year growth. That, of course, doesn't mean that they couldn't and shouldn't be striving to do better :wink:

[Billi Wiz]

I know several folk who have given up on Blackfriars and now take their Dancing and their wallets to Wallsend & Sunderland... (Non-Ceroc venues both) bacuse of incidents at Blackfriars...

Either we are all over-sensitive (A possibility....) or they have a problem with their Customer Service...

me personally - i vote with my feet (when they are not dancing, that is!!!)

[Reklaw]

...I find the ceroc venues I've visited in the North-East could do with some People-skills training... As there are only two Ceroc venues in the North East (of England that is :nice: ) are you suggesting you've had a bad experience at Middlesbrough too? Whilst we can't comment on Newcastle, we, and all our crew at Middlesbrough, try very hard to make people feel most welcome and strive for good customer service.
If you have had a bad experience at Middlesbrough, we would welcome constructive feedback so that we have an opportunity to address any issues.
If you haven't already been to dance with us at Middlesbrough why not give it a try, we're sure you'll have a very positive experience!

[bigdjiver]

As there are only two Ceroc venues in the North East (of England that is :nice: ) are you suggesting you've had a bad experience at Middlesbrough too? Whilst we can't comment on Newcastle, we, and all our crew at Middlesbrough, try very hard to make people feel most welcome and strive for good customer service.
If you have had a bad experience at Middlesbrough, we would welcome constructive feedback so that we have an opportunity to address any issues.
If you haven't already been to dance with us at Middlesbrough why not give it a try, we're sure you'll have a very positive experience!Not been there, but Mike is a very friendly fellow and a v. good dancer.

[Strider]

I like Middlesbrough Ceroc, myself. Newcastle was on a bit of a lull recently but has improved.

I find it funny how people rate venues, though. I find some venues lack atmosphere and other people say that it's been a great night.

[Strider]

just thinking a bit more about the main subject of this discussion.

Ceroc recently got a mention a techie humour website (the BOFH, in case anyone's interested - BOFH: Geeks on heat | The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04/20/bofh_episode_13/)). I think that this shows that it's entering popular culture. As for whether or not Ceroc is working as a business, I don't know the financial aspects, but I have heard it said from dancers in London that "Ceroc is pulling together and squeezing out the other dance weekends". I haven't been to enough to comment, but that's coming from people who live and breathe dancing.

[bigdjiver]

... I have heard it said from dancers in London that "Ceroc is pulling together and squeezing out the other dance weekends". I haven't been to enough to comment, but that's coming from people who live and breathe dancing.It is a marketing dictum that it is easier to sell more to your existing customers than it is to acquire new ones. They would be fools not to exploit their existing market. The natural tendency is to concentrate on that market with its higher margins and return on capital.
:devil: One strategy might even be to build that business, then split it off and sell it to some unwary entrepreneur who did not appreciate where the customers came from. i.e. show them Modern Jive - Ceroc, LeRoc, etc. - Videos, DVDs, Classes, Events, Workshops, Holidays, Weekends (http://www.modernjive.com) and say, truthfully, we sell to all those ...:devil:
:devil: Then rebuild the weekender business using new sites and dates ...:devil:

[bigdjiver]

... Ceroc is pulling together and squeezing out the other dance weekends...It would be easy to think that at its core Ceroc is a dance business, but its main actual management function is to organise and promote events. i.e. book venues, people, equipment, organise marketing and sales etc. Ceroc could split the dance training and DJ supplying aspects off, and expand event organising into other sectors. There may be eventually be some underused event location that Ceroc could buy and make much more profitable on the basis of using it as a regular venue, midweek exhibitions by day, and weekenders.