Weekender workshop levels

[Lory]

Reading Jivecat's rant and FH's comments on the workshop levels, I wondered what the solution to this problem is?

What level should the teachers teach to?



Rant Mode On:I was delighted to see clear labelling on classes : Beginners/Intermediates/Advanced. Looks promising, I thought. Why then, was this not adhered to? The advanced Jango was peopled with a number of people for whom "advanced" means they did the taster class the day before - maybe. Sorry, pals & palesses, but it was made clear that a basic amount of knowledge was needed as a basis for that class. Amir stated the basic requirements at the beginning of the lesson and gave some alternatives for the people who did not have the requisite experience - they could sit and watch or pair up and work with some one at a similar level. WHY, THEN, did no-one leave the floor at that point?? Because the class had many beginners it meant Amir could not easily carry out the more challenging tasks he had planned and people with a background of learning tango/jango did not get much out of the class because they were struggling with beginner leaders/followers. Now, I'm very happy to do that in most other classes but I'd rather not in a class labelled "advanced".

Sorry to be blunt about this, and I certainly am not getting at individuals, but there were plenty of classes at the weekender that were perfect (indeed, should be compulsory material, IMVHO:rolleyes: ) for beginners and improvers so why did they feel the need to attend the advanced classes? Do they not realise that effectively, they are preventing other people from getting the full benefit from classes? People need to be realistic about their own capabilities to give everyone a fair chance.





Workshops - I confess, i only did one.. Amir's advanced Jango, (beautifully demo'd by MsFab) I definitely wouldn't say it was 'advanced' :confused:



These classes were clearly marked as advanced (which made me wonder if I was going to be up to it). I think anyone who considers they should be in an advanced class should be able to do two walks and a triple step (Jivecat, your rant is reasonable :respect: ) I ended up leaving a class after it couldn't move at a reasonable pace to keep my interest.

I honestly don't know the answer to this but it seems to me, that bringing in teachers like Ben and Carla, J&T and Amir, is a bit like using a 14lb hammer to squash a grape at most of the weekenders.... their fountain of knowledge seems somewhat wasted, by using them to simply teach the basics to complete beginners...

I watched the WCS lesson and about half the people weren't even stepping forward on the correct foot (let alone ready to learn anything more advanced)

So, looking at the class, how could they be expected to teach anything passed the basics :confused:

They were advertised as the major attraction and one would assume, this was a selling point to attract the more advanced dancer but understandably, as they are the star act, everyone wants to be taught by them but IMO most of what they're capable of teaching, is wasted, as it has to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, which is fairly frustrating when you've managed to get passed the 'basics' stage yourself

If I was an organiser, I honestly wouldn't know how i'd address this problem.. people have such fragile egos and telling someone they're not ready yet, runs the risk of offending them or make them loose their confidence, which in the end, would be counter productive.:(

Maybe the only way to get the message across, is if a class is advertised as advanced, is to pitch the level 'high' and if people can't do it, they'll hopefully realise this themselves? Otherwise its a never ending cycle, they go to an advanced class, don't realise its being dumbed down, so therefore believe they 'are' advanced, as they coped with it...:rolleyes:

did any of that make sense?:blush:

[Twirly]

Isn't this related to one of the core issues with Ceroc - it teaches people moves, but not to dance? Therefore someone who has been going for a few years might think they are advanced when they aren't really - maybe advanced in Ceroc, but not in dancing skills (which presumably is what you need if you are to do one of these more advanced workshops/do a workshop in something that isn't Ceroc).

I'm not advanced, and I've only been to one weekender. But if I saw an advanced class, despite having been doing Ceroc for nearly 2 years now (I can't believe it's been that long :eek: ) I'd assume that it wasn't the class for me.

I'd say, get the teachers to teach to the level advertised - what's the point otherwise? And more importantly, get them to outline the level of the class before they've even started! If it's an advanced or intermediate tango or WCS class, get them to say "We expect you to have been doing regular classes in this for x months or years - if you haven't, whilst you are welcome to stay, you are unlikely to learn much". And make it clear in the brochure as well, what level you are expected to have. Some people think that if you've done the beginners you can do the intermediate, and if you've done the intermediate that you can do the advanced - all at the same weekender (and I can see the logic there, even if it might not be the case).

Weekenders need to attract and satisfy a range of dance levels. And catering to the lowest common denominator in every workshop isn't going to do that.

[Tessalicious]

It's such a shame when these advanced workshops can't be what they say on the tin, even when they are taught as such, because of the people in the line that make it impossible for others to learn. I have a theory on how it could be solved, but it's a bit elitist - what do you think?

Basically, since many of these classes are taught progressively (I remember Robert and Deborah teaching 4 WCS classes at MJC: beginners, improvers, intermediate, advanced), it should be possible to set the classes up so that you have one line of people who just did the previous workshop(s) and one of people who are there because they've learnt the dance style before. That way you can choose whether you're there as someone who is already advanced or someone who wants to be.

Alternatively, where there is a big gap (such as the Introduction to Jango and what everyone would have liked the Advanced Jango to be) you should run the advanced class first, so that the people can't do the Intro and then decide that they're good enough to do the Advanced...

[Paul F]

their fountain of knowledge seems somewhat wasted, by using them to simply teach the basics to complete beginners...


:yeah:
I was discussing this with someone after the last Southport - cant remember who off hand.

IMO its a VERY valid point.

John+Wes, Franck etc. should be applauded for paying to bring over these stars but I completely agree, their vast knowledge is, not wasted, but is less effective.

I guess its the opportunity to dance/watch these guys that is also a benefit.

[Lory]

I guess its the opportunity to dance/watch these guys that is also a benefit.

:yeah: I definitely learnt (even if I can't apply what I learnt:( ) from watching Carla freestyling and also from Dancing with Ben!:waycool:

As you say, the organisers should be applauded for giving us the opportunity to see them :cheers: :clap:

It would be a good idea to let them teach a class to each level, so no one misses out but also make a clear distinction between the levels and stick to it! :flower:

[DS87]

Basically, since many of these classes are taught progressively (I remember Robert and Deborah teaching 4 WCS classes at MJC: beginners, improvers, intermediate, advanced), it should be possible to set the classes up so that you have one line of people who just did the previous workshop(s) and one of people who are there because they've learnt the dance style before. That way you can choose whether you're there as someone who is already advanced or someone who wants to be.



:yeah: I have to agree with you that this would be a good solution but sadly it would be as difficult to police as the current situation. This is especially highlighted in WCS classes that are aimed for the intermediate dancer. I have been doing WCS for over a year now and I would rate myself as a novice and yet you get people turning up for an intermediate class who aren't even sure of the basic 6 count moves. I am all for people trying to learn and push themselves, however it is a bit selfish to do it at the expense of other people. Although I realise that it must be difficult for the teachers they are really the only people who can keep the class on track and not pander to the lower level. Sadly as has been mentioned as soon as this sort of attitude is adopted then one gets accused of being elitist rather than someone who just wants to learn something new. I never expect a beginners class to be more advanced but I am perfectly happy to participate (and normally learn something) so people should be able to attend an intermediate class and be given what they expect as well. :nice:

[Twirlie Bird]

In the weekly Ceroc classes the classes are always dumbed down to the lowest level. I do feel this is wrong. :mad: It is a very difficult balance. The newer people to the classes need to have something that they can begin to manage and not be scared away. The intermediate dancers need something to make them think though, something to help them progress. It's tricky as the make up of the classes are always changing and as such those dancers needs are changing too. :what:

With a weekender it must be even harder. :sick: I do feel that if a class is advertised as advanced then that is exactly what it should be. Some of the better dancers don't get a chance to get their levels pushed and get something they can get their teeth into. It's equally as important that the advanced dancers get classes and workshops that they can benefit from as it is for the beginners. :rolleyes:

The difficult question is how to you actually put this into practice. :confused: Yes you could have the teachers teaching what it was they had planned. This would work if the majority of people in the class were at an advanced level. If this wasn't the case though it really wouldn't work and also wouldn't be fair. You would have novice leads trying to lead advanced follows through the moves and vice versa. This would just lead to a lot of frustration. :angry:

Good question. I don't envy the teachers and organisers here.:flower:

[ducasi]

Rant Mode On:I was delighted to see clear labelling on classes : Beginners/Intermediates/Advanced. Looks promising, I thought. [...]



Workshops - I confess, i only did one.. Amir's advanced Jango, (beautifully demo'd by MsFab) I definitely wouldn't say it was 'advanced' :confused:



These classes were clearly marked as advanced (which made me wonder if I was going to be up to it). [...]

Is it worth pointing out that these classes were not marked as "advanced", they were marked as "Experienced dancers only!"? And as we all know, you can have years of experience without being an advanced dancer. ;)

Anyway, to answer the question, I don't think it is possible to either explicitly exclude people from the class by telling them they are not good enough, or (if it's a big problem) teach beyond people's abilities and hope they drop out.

In a class that rotates, each partner you are with will be at their own standard. It's not fair if the teaching is pitched to deliberately leave the stragglers behind, as then everyone suffers.

Perhaps a solution would be for teachers at the start of the class to give a "self-test" to those attending to help them decide whether they are going to gain from being at the class or not.

[Lory]

Is it worth pointing out that these classes were not marked as "advanced", they were marked as "Experienced dancers only!"? And as we all know, you can have years of experience without being an advanced dancer. ;)

I see what you mean but when somethings called ADVANCED JANGO and it was highlighted in red, which was coded as 'experienced dancers only' I kind of assumed it was aimed at people who'd had some previous Tango or Jango training :confused:

[Twirly]

The difficult question is how to you actually put this into practice. :confused: Yes you could have the teachers teaching what it was they had planned. This would work if the majority of people in the class were at an advanced level. If this wasn't the case though it really wouldn't work and also wouldn't be fair. You would have novice leads trying to lead advanced follows through the moves and vice versa. This would just lead to a lot of frustration. :angry:

Good question. I don't envy the teachers and organisers here.:flower:

Why wouldn't it be fair? Is it fair to the people who go to the advanced/experienced dancers workshop that the class gets dumbed down because there are beginners there?

And although the punters are probably more important - what about the teachers? Will they get bored/annoyed with teaching these "advanced" classes to beginners and get so frustrated that they give up and don't do weekenders anymore? In which case everyone loses out.

Can someone who goes to weekenders for other dance forms do a comparison please - do you have the same sorts of problems? Or is this a Ceroc speciality (because of what I said earlier about Ceroc teaching moves).

[Msfab]

I see what you mean but when somethings called ADVANCED JANGO and it was highlighted in red, which was coded as 'experienced dancers only' I kind of assumed it was aimed at people who'd had some previous Tango or Jango training :confused:


Depends on your definition of experienced. Some people may think having a few classes at weekenders would count as enough experience:sick: It may be the case with some dance styles but with WCS and Tango/Jango (one I have experience in) a few classes here and there just isnt enough.

What can you do? Start throwing people out:confused: thats not very inclusive

[MartinHarper]

"Advanced Jango"?
I'm curious. How many genuinely advanced Jango dancers are there, who were at this weekender, who do not go to regular Jango classes already? I'm kinda guessing the answer is kinda low. After all, the commonest way to become an advanced Jango dancer is to go to regular Jango classes. I'm thinking the numbers involved are probably low enough that the folks involved would do better off booking a private mini-workshop, rather than a scheduled class.

I have doubts about the validity of an "intermediate Jango" or "intermediate WCS" class on a weekender. An "advanced Jango" class just sounds crazy.


Amir stated the basic requirements at the beginning of the lesson ... WHY, THEN, did no-one leave the floor at that point?"

Hint for teachers. Get everyone off the dance floor. Everyone. Then explain the requirements. Then, and only then, allow folks to come onto the dance floor. Preferably get them to come onto the floor as singles, not couples, for example by saying "men on my right, women on my left".
Otherwise, your attempts to get folks who can't cope to leave will be fighting against people's instinctive desire not to abandon their current partner in the middle of the dance floor, and lose face by admitting they aren't capable of taking the class, and that's a losing battle.


... many of these classes are taught progressively (I remember Robert and Deborah teaching 4 WCS classes at MJC: beginners, improvers, intermediate, advanced ...

Taking that at face value, does that mean that after just four classes in WCS I'm ready to call myself an advanced WCS dancer?

[Ghost]

Assuming there's a dvd it'd be interesting to see if Amir puts on it what he wanted to teach, or what he ended up teaching.

Couldn't the Jango card system have been used in this case, especially if it was "advanced"? I'd have thought the number of advanced Jango dancers without yellow / green / blue cards is small enough that Amir probably knows them.

[Lory]

Couldn't the Jango card system have been used in this case, especially if it was "advanced"? I'd have thought the number of advanced Jango dancers without yellow / green / blue cards is small enough that Amir probably knows them.

Now 'that' really would be being elitist :what: :cool:

The only regular Jango classes I know about, are in London and this event was in Scotland, I doubt there were more than half a dozen people who'd ever been to jango...

... but, there were some very experienced MJ dancers, who were also very profficient at Argentine Tango :worthy:

I think the card system should be kept to Amir's regular classes ;)

[Paulthetrainer]

The standard of the average individuals dancing is subjective because there are not really any performance measures to go by.

Some people will always feel that they are better than they really are, whilst others are more modest and will put themselves down. What does one actually have to be able to do in order to be considered advanced or intermediate?

In regular Ceroc classes we are told that we can do the intermediate class if we've been to at least 6(?) beginners classes. We all know that there are some people who still aren't ready after 6 beginners classes, whereas others pick it up almost instantly. 'Experience' as a performance measure is not really the answer. I've often felt that instead of saying '6 or more classes', the Taxi Dancers should be given the responsibilty at the end of each beginners lesson of advising people if they are ready to progress.

For workshops, I think we should be told in the literature prior to the workshop exactly what we already ought to be able to do, in order that we are neither bored, nor out of our depth. I don't think that it's appropriate to do this only at the start of the workshop because at this point people have already committed their time to being there, so they are probably more likely to muddle through anyway.

Also, at weekenders there are always going to be lots and lots of people showing up. The more people, the wider differences in standard. As for teachers, they surely would prefer to cater for the majority, because that ultimately is how they make their money and advance their reputations, so is it in their best interests to be 'over selective' with their class outline, and risk having only a handful of folks showing up?


Paul

[MartinHarper]

Can someone who goes to weekenders for other dance forms do a comparison please - do you have the same sorts of problems?

I go to Lindy weekenders.

In my experience, classes in other dances (Boogie Woogie, Balboa, Blues, etc) are all taught as "no experience necessary" and "suitable for all levels". Occasionally a class will require either prior experience, or going to a previous class on the same weekender. Eg, "Solo Jazz Steps 2" requires "Solo Jazz Steps 1", or else a dancer who is already proficient at Jazz Steps.

For the Lindy classes, there are typically a number of levels, with a reasonably detailed description at each level. The description is based on a number of months or years experience in regular Lindy dancing, and also on what a Lindy dancer at each level should be capable of doing. There is also be an exhortation for dancers not to dance above their level of comfort. It is normal to end up with about 1-5% of the people in a class who are noticeably out of their comfort zone. This is small enough that I've never found it hindering my learning. It's just a source of mild irritation and occasional gossip.

[MartinHarper]

I doubt there were more than half a dozen people who'd ever been to jango...

So why teach an "Advanced Jango" class? Let those six people go get a private lesson.


There were some very experienced MJ dancers, who were also very proficient at Argentine Tango

In my opinion, those people would be best off going to a beginner Jango class to learn the basics of Jango, rather than assuming that their experience in other dances allows them to skip the basics of a new dance.

[Ghost]

Now 'that' really would be being elitist :what: :cool:

Yeah, but it would have worked :wink:

Bearing in mind I wasn't there.....:flower:


The only regular Jango classes I know about, are in London and this event was in Scotland, I doubt there were more than half a dozen people who'd ever been to jango...

... but, there were some very experienced MJ dancers, who were also very profficient at Argentine Tango :worthy:
Well this raises the tricky question of defining "advanced". I was advised by Amir when starting AT to treat it as something entirely different from Jango. I could see the case for someone experienced in MJ and Tango doing an intermediate Jango class - I'm just not sure about advanced?

As a point of reference, the current advanced Jango classes in London are for green cards + ie someone who's done at least 30 hours of Jango. Some of the people in the class eg ChrisA have been doing Jango literally for years


I think the card system should be kept to Amir's regular classes ;)
Ah well he gets the casting vote :wink: I do like the idea of holding the advanced class before the beginners class though :respect:

Edit - Ok so I'm obviously on the same wavelength as Martin today.....

[Lory]

reasonably detailed description at each level. The description is based on a number of months or years experience in regular Lindy dancing, and also on what a Lindy dancer at each level should be capable of doing.

Can you give an example of how this might translate into MJ or WCS? :flower:

[Twirlie Bird]

Why wouldn't it be fair? Is it fair to the people who go to the advanced/experienced dancers workshop that the class gets dumbed down because there are beginners there?).

Sorry I don't think I worded that very well. :what: I meant it wouldn't be fair to the experienced dancers. They would end up either being led by somebody who wasn't really able to lead those moves or they would be leading somebody who really wasn't able to follow the moves. Either way the advanced dancer who had attended that class due to it's description would end up very frustrated. :angry:


And although the punters are probably more important - what about the teachers? Will they get bored/annoyed with teaching these "advanced" classes to beginners and get so frustrated that they give up and don't do weekenders anymore? In which case everyone loses out.).
Agreed. However all punters are important. That means punters of all levels and all levels should be catered for. :flower:

[Lory]

In my opinion, those people would be best off going to a beginner Jango class to learn the basics of Jango, rather than assuming that their experience in other dances allows them to skip the basics of a new dance.

I'm very guilty of this myself :blush: that's why I chose to 'fix'... I wouldn't of wanted to hinder anyone else, if I was lost on something I should have already known..

But I did also (correctly) assume that there wouldn't be that many profficient pure Jangoister's in Scotland either! And so I deduced that it would make sense that Amir would use a combination of AT and MJ for the event!

[Ghost]

Sorry I don't think I worded that very well. :what: I meant it wouldn't be fair to the experienced dancers. They would end up either being led by somebody who wasn't really able to lead those moves or they would be leading somebody who really wasn't able to follow the moves. Either way the advanced dancer who had attended that class due to it's description would end up very frustrated. :angry:


Agreed. However all punters are important. That means punters of all levels and all levels should be catered for. :flower:
Interestingly this is what Amir now does with his own workshops. There's two different foundation courses for beginners to chose from; the Monthly workshop for people who can do the foundation moves and the Advanced workshop for people who can do the intermediate moves. This means that beginners can take it at their own pace in the foundation. In the monthly workshop, people stand a chance of being able to pick up the moves because they're practicing on someone who's familiar with them rather than a beginner who's struggling with the basics. And the advanced can work on weird and wonderful moves because again everyone involved is at that level.

[MartinHarper]

Can you give an example of how this might translate into MJ or WCS? :flower:

Sure. I'll do MJ, since this is an MJ forum. The times given are rough guidelines of regular experience dancing.

Beginner: Less than six months. You are just starting off your journey with Modern Jive, and want to do it right. You find you learn a lot from beginner classes. Dancing in freestyle might feel daunting.
You will learn the basic moves of Modern Jive and how to perform them with confidence in freestyle. You will learn important aspects of dance etiquette.

Intermediate 1: 6-18 months. You know a variety of simple left-handed, right-handed, and two-handed moves. You are happy dancing freestyle, but can already tell how much better other dancers are. You are very comfortable in regular beginner classes, and are starting to take intermediate classes. You can spin well both on your own and with a partner. You can lead or follow with both hands, but one hand may feel better than the other. You have danced with your local teacher and may have picked up some valuable feedback that way. You don't yank your partners, or make them feel uncomfortable, and rarely fall over. In freestyle you are aware of other dancers and considerate towards them.
You will add more variety to your dancing, and learn to lead or follow all kinds of movements, from double spins to precise footwork.

Intermediate 2: 1-3 years. You have a solid repertoire of moves, including a few "trademark" moves that are more complex or surprising. You also know some close moves, some spinny moves, some travelling moves, some footwork, and some dips. You are still learning from regular intermediate classes, but are now feeling comfortable with that level. You have been to a few weekenders. You recognise the differences between different types of music, but don't know what do with them.
You will learn to dance with more style and better technique. You will also learn the basics of musicality, fitting your dancing to the music.

Post-Intermediate: 2-6 years. You have stopped collecting moves, and have started collecting new ways to move. You can dance to a wide variety of music, and your dancing reflects that music. You have been to many weekenders. You are one of the best dancers in your local scene. You can have great dances with international teachers and with complete beginners. You may have started teaching, or competing. Your dancing looks great and feels great. You have learnt the basics of some other dances, but are focused on Modern Jive.
You will learn to perfect your dance technique, hitting great lines and elegant sweeps that match every nuance of the music. Depending on the teachers, you may learn aerials, or drops, or other challenging moves.

Advanced: 4+ years. When you dance, you draw a crowd, without meaning to. You are a weekender regular, and one of the best dancers here. You can dance to any music at any speed, but you know which music you like best. All the other Advanced dancers know who you are, probably by name. You no longer have a repertoire of moves: you just dance. If you teach, you have taught at several weekenders. If you compete, you compete at Advanced or Open level. You search out the best national and international teachers for private tuition. You are so connected to your dance partners that it is as if they are an extension of your own body.
You will be taken to the very limit of your abilities. You will be asked to do things that defy the laws of physics. Your teachers will work you hard and give no mercy.

(I'd take Intermediate 2, given those descriptions)

[Lynn]

Hint for teachers. Get everyone off the dance floor. Everyone. Then explain the requirements. Then, and only then, allow folks to come onto the dance floor. Preferably get them to come onto the floor as singles, not couples, for example by saying "men on my right, women on my left".
Otherwise, your attempts to get folks who can't cope to leave will be fighting against people's instinctive desire not to abandon their current partner in the middle of the dance floor, and lose face by admitting they aren't capable of taking the class, and that's a losing battle.I think that's an important point. In Amir's musicality class, near the end he offered the option to take things to a further level - those who felt they had taken in enough information were able to leave and those who wanted to learn a bit more could stay on - everyone was sitting around so it was easy for people to slip off at that point if they wanted to.

So I'd agree with getting everyone off the floor, sitting/standing around, not in pairs first - then explain the level and suggest that some might just want to watch. To illustrate this, maybe demo what people should be able to do in order to do the class, and then maybe demo some of what was going to be taught in that class.

Hopefully that would make a few folk be a bit more realistic - but some will still go ahead and do the class. The drawback to that is that those who are at the right level for the class, end up not learning much if they are rotating with people who haven't grasped the basics required to deal with what is being taught at that level.

Its not ideal, and it sounds selfish, but I'm starting to prefer to do such classes fixed - when I rotate I end up dropping out midway through the class out of sheer frustration and the feeling that I'm actually learning bad habits.

[jivecat]

Can someone who goes to weekenders for other dance forms do a comparison please - do you have the same sorts of problems? Or is this a Ceroc speciality (because of what I said earlier about Ceroc teaching moves).

In my very limited experience of tango events - The Tango Mango- there is a strict hierarchy of achievement/ability. Some classes were for everyone but other classes were labelled intermediate or advanced. The criteria seemed to be, if you have to ask, you definitely haven't made it yet. Teachers were not afraid of telling people they thought they were in the wrong class for their ability. Non-advanced people were firmly discouraged from attending advanced lessons which took place in an inner sanctum far from the gaze of the common herd. Yes, it did feel elitist. No, it was not always easy to live with. But I still fail to see the point of attending a technical lesson if I was struggling so much I would be unlikely to learn much myself and would also impede the progress of other paying customers.

The poll question looks at it from the teacher's point of view, which poses a difficulty for me. As a teacher of Infants it's my duty to meet the needs of the class rather than to impose an artificial standard on them. (Well that's not quite true, actually but I won't go ito it here.) So I think Amir did the right thing - he politely invited people to think about the previous knowledge, gave some alternative ways to participate, then cheerfully did the best he could to meet the needs of the class. My argument is really with the punters who were asked to make the decision as to whether they could cope with the class, and made the wrong one. IMO. MartinHarper's alternative of getting everyone off the floor first and then puting the suitably qualified people back on, is a good one but perhaps not that easy to carry out in a MJ context where nobody is prepared for that kind of sifting.


Admittedly the culture in MJ is for everyone to muck in together without worrying too much about whether they're getting a quality learning experience. It is one of the strengths of MJ.
But I don't think it would hurt for that to change, just a bit. Is it really outrageous to expect that someone should check if they've got the necessary foundation for a course before they start out? No, it's absolutely commonplace in most other areas of learning.

I love MartinHarper's
rough guidelines of regular experience dancing.
though it can't take account of people who get to be advanced after 6 months or people who will still be intermediate after 10 years. As a "post-intermediate" I'm looking forward to the crowd gathering. :rofl: Will it be OK to put down an old shoebag for people to chuck their loose change into?

It's all relative anyway. There's no point in making a fuss about being excluded from an "advanced" class at a weekender considering we're all on a continuum somewhere between total beginner and professional dance deity and almost all of us are a lot nearer the former than the latter. (Like if that continuum was a timeline we'd be somewhere between the death of the last dinosaur and the invention of the wheel.) For example, "advanced" modern jivers would hardly moan about being chucked out of a Royal Ballet school class or a rehearsal for Burn the Floor, would they?

It should be a reasonably simple matter to get some teaching at a roughly appropriate level without anyone feeling they've been excluded - the important thing is that the freestyle would still be a mixed event.

[Andy McGregor]

IMHO the level of a class or workshop should be the level advertised. If people are not the right level they will get little or nothing out of it and might be slightly demoralised. However, if people are the right level and they will get nothing out of it if the lesson is adjusted downwards to the level of the people who aren't ready: those people will be annoyed and would be justified in asking for their money back as the product did not match the description :mad:

So, you have to make a decision as the person running the workshop: who gets something out of the workshop? Is it the people who are the right level for the workshop or is it the people who aren't ready for the workshop? It seems like a no-brainer to me :confused:

I have this dilemma on a regular basis at our classes. Often there is somebody who isn't getting the lesson. Usually it's just one guy - often the same guy, week after week after week after week :tears: I have 2 strategy's for handling this situation. The first one is to move on more frequently so that nobody is stuck with the dodgy guy for too long. The other strategy is to wait until a crew member gets this guy, often by choosing the correct number to move on, then I say something like "Sue (insert name of crew member), please stick with and help your current partner, do not join in with the rotation". If it is the same guy, week after week, I usually have a chat with them, give them individual coaching and suggest that they join in with the beginners consolidation until they're a bit more confident.

However, this doesn't work so well when there's more than one person who is not getting the lesson. In those circumstances I just teach at the level I intended. I don't ignore the class and teach each section until most people have got it. Sometimes that means the lesson over-runs by 10 minutes and sometimes I shorten the routine.

BTW, I don't teach "advanced" lessons. I don't think advanced dancing is about moves. IMHO it's about the music and what you do to the music. Of course, you'd need to be a very experienced dancer if the teacher goes through the moves quickly. But, IMHO, you could teach most "advanced" moves to complete beginners if you went really slowly and had the time, stamina and patience to do it.

I have offered "advanced workshops". I got Nigel & Nina to teach them :worthy:

[ducasi]

However, this doesn't work so well when there's more than one person who is not getting the lesson. In those circumstances I just teach at the level I intended. I don't ignore the class and teach each section until most people have got it. Sometimes that means the lesson over-runs by 10 minutes and sometimes I shorten the routine. In a weekender, you're likely to get many people who aren't getting the lesson – that's the point. You can't overrun, so you have to slow-down and reduce the material you intended to teach.

This means that those who were capable of doing what you were going to teach either get bored or feel cheated as they didn't get everything they could from the class.

Thus this discussion.



BTW, I don't teach "advanced" lessons. I don't think advanced dancing is about moves. IMHO it's about the music and what you do to the music. "Advanced" is not just about music, etc. You can have advanced lots of things, including technique, connection, lead/follow, footwork, posture/balance, spinning, and even, incredibly, advanced moves!

Drops, lifts, and slides, for example, can be advanced. Moves involving unusual connection such as thigh or foot leads are usually best reserved for experienced dancers too.

[Andy McGregor]

"Advanced" is not just about music, etc. You can have advanced lots of things, including technique, connection, lead/follow, footwork, posture/balance, spinning, and even, incredibly, advanced moves!

Drops, lifts, and slides, for example, can be advanced. Moves involving unusual connection such as thigh or foot leads are usually best reserved for experienced dancers too.IMHO you can have all of the things listed and still not be an advanced dancer. There are some tricky moves and there are some tricky techniques. Some people use them all of the time and make them look ordinary by not fitting them to the music. Those dancers are not, IMHO, advanced dancers. I think it's all about fitting them to the music. IMHO, the road where you just think of moves and unusual connections is not the road to advanced dancing, it's the road to difficult dancing.

[Lynn]

Moves involving unusual connection such as thigh or foot leads are usually best reserved for experienced dancers too.Why? 'Moves' like that are taught at basic level in AT - they're simply about technique that can be taught to less experienced dancers. IMO the reason why this level of technique is not taught to beginners in MJ is partly about accessiblity - not scaring away new dancers and probably a large part about profitablity too.

[ducasi]

Why? 'Moves' like that are taught at basic level in AT - they're simply about technique that can be taught to less experienced dancers. IMO the reason why this level of technique is not taught to beginners in MJ is partly about accessiblity - not scaring away new dancers and probably a large part about profitablity too.
Why? Because they are unusual. Accessibility isn't a factor here. If we expected beginner dancers in MJ to be able to do these things, we'd teach beginners how to do them. Same goes for intermediate.

In different dances you teach different things to beginners based on what the dance is about.

[ducasi]

IMHO you can have all of the things listed and still not be an advanced dancer. There are some tricky moves and there are some tricky techniques. Some people use them all of the time and make them look ordinary by not fitting them to the music. Those dancers are not, IMHO, advanced dancers. I think it's all about fitting them to the music. IMHO, the road where you just think of moves and unusual connections is not the road to advanced dancing, it's the road to difficult dancing.
Can someone be an advanced dancer with brilliant musicality, and only the "in and out", "side to side" and "arm-jive" in their repertoire of moves?

[Lynn]

Why? Because they are unusual. Accessibility isn't a factor here. If we expected beginner dancers in MJ to be able to do these things, we'd teach beginners how to do them. Same goes for intermediate. And have much smaller classes - and a lot less profit.:rolleyes:


In different dances you teach different things to beginners based on what the dance is about.So that means MJ is just about moves? Not technique, lead and follow and musicality? Drat, I'd better give up then and go and learn something else.

[Andy McGregor]

Can someone be an advanced dancer with brilliant musicality, and only the "in and out", "side to side" and "arm-jive" in their repertoire of moves?This is, of course, a ridiculous question which does not merit a considered answer.

[ducasi]

And have much smaller classes - and a lot less profit.:rolleyes: The class would also no-longer be teaching beginner MJ. No wonder it's small.



So that means MJ is just about moves? Not technique, lead and follow and musicality? Drat, I'd better give up then and go and learn something else. Is MJ about leg displacements? It is about tricky or dangerous moves?

No. So we don't teach them to beginners.

Technique, lead and follow and musicality are taught along-side moves in the best MJ classes.

[straycat]

Can someone be an advanced dancer with brilliant musicality, and only the "in and out", "side to side" and "arm-jive" in their repertoire of moves?

I know this was supposed to be a rhetorical question, but in my own view.... yes. Although it's somewhat unlikely to happen.

[ducasi]

I've just thought of a nice analogy...

If you can think of the "bag of knowledge" (a bit like a rucksack, perhaps) you need to be a MJ dancer, then what we teach beginners can be regarded as plain, big blocks of knowledge. If fills the bag quite well, but there's plenty of gaps.

So, then we go on to the intermediate class, and there you are taught more rounded knowledge which helps fill the spaces between the rough knowledge of the beginner and the edges of the bag of knowledge. Think of these as ball-bearings of varying sizes, filling in the gaps.

Advanced teaching is about finding and filling pockets on the outside of the bag which can make your dancing that bit special. All the same types of things you want inside the bag (technique, moves, musicality, etc) can also be found outside the bag, it's just that the stuff you have in these outside pockets isn't essential to make you a good MJ dancer.

It makes no sense to fill in the intermediate knowledge until you've got the basics done.

Filling the outside pockets can be done at any stage, but it makes sense to only start filling the outside pockets once the main bag is mostly full.

[Lynn]

Is MJ about leg displacements? It is about tricky or dangerous moves?

No. So we don't teach them to beginners. Who said anything about teaching leg displacements or tricky or dangerous moves to beginners? You said moves led with leg or thigh were too complex for inexperienced dancers, I simply pointed out that new AT dancers seem to cope. I didn't suggest we should teach them in MJ - but made the point that technique seems to be considered something for 'experienced dancers' and 'moves' for beginners. I think if technique is taught well it can be taught to all levels - with a layering approach as people move up.

Unfortunately it seems that MJ is often about teaching moves and for the 'other stuff' you need to go to specialist classes/weekenders/Scotland...


Technique, lead and follow and musicality are taught along-side moves in the best MJ classes.Good. I've not come across musicality taught outside a weekender, but good to know its taught in regular classes somewhere.

As to the weekender issue - thinking about it, I think the teacher should adapt to the class. If the level is way too high for most of the class then everyone suffers - those who can't cope and those who are trying to learn with them. If set at a lower level than advertised then hopefully the teacher can throw in a few more advanced concepts along the way that will add to the 'layers' for the more experienced dancers, without leaving the less experienced out of their depth.

I'm more likely to bail on a weekender class where the leads simply aren't getting it and I'm being trailed around while they try, than one where I'm already familiar with most of the material, but can work on connection, balance etc, while still getting some useful more detailed tips along the way.

[Rhythm King]

I currently pick my weekenders based on the teachers going. I want to do the more advanced classes they can offer. There are plenty of taster and generalist classes for people to go to, but I have paid my money as well and want a class at the level advertised, and not have it dumbed down for people who have decided on the spur of the moment to have a go.

The teachers do beginners classes during the weekends, the beginners can go to those. Incidentally I go to the beginners classes too, because there is always something of value to be learned, or re-learned, no matter how good one is (or thinks one is).

Incidentally, I went to a weekender earlier this year, where everyone present was auditioned!

[Lucy Locket]

I stopped doing the classes because there were always so many beginners or people who hadn't a clue what the class was about & it was so frustrating as I learnt nothing & couldn't enjoy it. Worse was these people doing intermediate classes because they'd missed the beginners one.:angry:

If anyone is looking for a fixed dance partner at Southport in June pm me please.:flower:

[Andy McGregor]

I've just thought of a nice analogy...Really?:innocent:

[Gus]

In the weekly Ceroc classes the classes are always dumbed down to the lowest level. I do feel this is wrong. :mad: I think I can understand where you are coming from, but not sure that I’d totally agree. Before we start complaining about whether some is advanced or not ... aren't we back to the old debate about what 'advanced' actually is?

Bringing it back to a specific example. I've now seen Marc teach standard ceroc lessons about 3 times over the last 4 weeks. At a Notts class he had dancers ranging from 6 weeks to 10 years experience. However, because of how he structured and layered his moves there was something there for everyone. For the newbies there was 'just' the moves. For more experienced dancers like myself there were tips on timing, little tricks and style tip about body movement. What really hacked me off though were the number of dancers who have hit the 12 month mark who obviously thought they 'knew it all'. If teachers are doing the class and learning I think that the problem is more in those doing the class than the teacher . . sometimes.

I mention Marc because I highly rate him but there are hordes of other instructors, Russell, Paul Harris, Bill etc who give lots more than 'just moves' but sometimes it must feel like pearls before swine. I bet you could take 20 'good dancers' and about half of them still don't do the first move right ... sorry ... there would be "room for improvement" :rolleyes:

Moving this on to 'Advanced Classes' ... well many of them are based on fundamentals being right, like connection, timing, balance etc. If these aren't right ... well the best you could hope to do is get a pale imitation of the taught move, but real understanding of what was behind it. Example in point, Carla and Ben's cool tricks workshop at Blaze. This really was advanced. I had sort of hoped just to breeze in and pick up a whole host of new moves ... not the case. The moves they did were based on Swing so you had to have the feel of lindy style to be able to execute properly. I did some lindy seven years ago and it was really hard work to get anywhere near the basics to let the moves work. this was NO reflection on the teaching (which I thought was superb :worthy: ) but a reflection on me NOT being 'advanced' when it came to that particular dance form.

So ... after all that rambling I'm not really sure what my point was:blush: Maybe its about identifying what area of dance is the workshop 'advanced' in, e.g. Blues experience, footwork or timing capability, Lindy experience etc. Its also about (somehow) allowing people to realistically assess whether they will benefit form the class, but not at the detriment of the teachers and other students.

HEY ... how about this for an idea. Adopt the Haraang approach. If you want to do the top level advanced workshops there you have to be 'assessed' to see if you are good enough. some on .. for the sake of a few bruised egos, wouldn't that make the advanced workshop better?