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StokeBloke
14th-May-2007, 10:18 PM
It's always good to learn from other people's mistakes - it's far less traumatic! So, let's hear the terrible advice (try to keep it dance related if you can) you have been given. No names, no pack drill please. Just the advice. I will start the ball rolling with:


Stamping your foot gives your dancing added style :eek:

drathzel
14th-May-2007, 10:20 PM
"stop putting your own style into the dance"

Gav
14th-May-2007, 10:21 PM
Stamping your foot gives your dancing added style :eek:

I was told at a fairly early stage:

"you're really getting the hang of it, now you just need to add a bit of bounce to make it really good" :sick:

Double Trouble
14th-May-2007, 10:22 PM
Stamping your foot gives your dancing added style :eek:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Don't you just hate it when the numpty's do that?

Real cool guy's...us girls find it so sexy when you start stamping your feet.:sick:

Double Trouble
14th-May-2007, 10:23 PM
Whatever the man offers you...take it with your right hand.:what:

straycat
14th-May-2007, 10:47 PM
"You're doing too many steps." (when I was starting to try out improvisation)
"You have no sense of rhythm." from a friend who didn't understand about clapping on the off-beat.

LMC
15th-May-2007, 10:13 AM
"This is where you ..."

Lead it then

EDIT: Oh, and "Footwork doesn't matter".

It does.

Anyone want the can-opener?

Trouble
15th-May-2007, 10:23 AM
1. hold on to my hand properly.!! :rolleyes:

2. spin on one foot, its easier. :sick:

3. i do a skip inbetween each move. I will teach you if you would like.


I cringe when i think of some of the things i have been told in the early days.

Double Trouble
15th-May-2007, 10:36 AM
"This is where you ..."

:yeah: If you cant lead a move properly...dont do it...! I do not want verbal instructions.:angry:

Jester
15th-May-2007, 10:57 AM
'Make sure you keep moving by dancing one move after another'.

Advice given to me when I was pausing on breaks in the music. Musicality BAD!

CJ
15th-May-2007, 11:00 AM
Step back on your right.:whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Degodier
15th-May-2007, 11:06 AM
Don't wave your arm around like that, it makes people look at us.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Double Trouble
15th-May-2007, 11:09 AM
"Stop doing your own thing. You are supposed to be following my lead".

Jester
15th-May-2007, 11:34 AM
'You're supposed to bounce on the beat to keep in time. Why are fighting me?' :what:

Mac
15th-May-2007, 11:49 AM
Get your arm up or I will tear it orf an' it ya' round the 'ead wiv the soggy end! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Drill Sergent Circa 1975 OK I know its not strictly relevent but it made me very fond of my limbs!!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Double Trouble
15th-May-2007, 11:53 AM
OK I know its not strictly relevent

If we are getting in to non-dancing terrible advice, how about this one from my sister.

"You might as well marry him, you already have kids together".:tears:

My divorce came through last month.:clap:

Trouble
15th-May-2007, 11:55 AM
If we are getting in to non-dancing terrible advice, how about this one from my sister.

"You might as well marry him, you already have kids together".:tears:

My divorce came through last month.:clap:


good advice, wrong people. :D

TurboTomato
15th-May-2007, 12:44 PM
:yeah: If you cant lead a move properly...dont do it...! I do not want verbal instructions.:angry:

What happens if someone isn't picking up a signal though?

Trouble
15th-May-2007, 12:45 PM
What happens if someone isn't picking up a signal though?

change the signal. A shove normally helps :D :respect:

TurboTomato
15th-May-2007, 12:47 PM
A shove normally helps :D :respect:

I'm worried we're still going with the 'bad advice' theme here :na:

Double Trouble
15th-May-2007, 12:48 PM
What happens if someone isn't picking up a signal though?

Lead stronger, or do something else. It's extremely annoying when leads start telling you what to do next.

Twirly
15th-May-2007, 12:54 PM
Lead stronger, or do something else. It's extremely annoying when leads start telling you what to do next.

I think I'd put the "lead stronger" in the bad advice category! A chap on Saturday I danced with was a strong lead, but I didn't "get" one or two things he tried to lead, so he started leading more and more strongly rather than more clearly... and I got a sore right arm :(

Double Trouble
15th-May-2007, 12:56 PM
I think I'd put the "lead stronger" in the bad advice category! A chap on Saturday I danced with was a strong lead, but I didn't "get" one or two things he tried to lead, so he started leading more and more strongly rather than more clearly... and I got a sore right arm :(

lead clearer then:rolleyes: just don't instruct verbally.

Trouble
15th-May-2007, 01:38 PM
I think I'd put the "lead stronger" in the bad advice category! A chap on Saturday I danced with was a strong lead, but I didn't "get" one or two things he tried to lead, so he started leading more and more strongly rather than more clearly... and I got a sore right arm :(

I WOULD HAVE STOPPED HIM AND SAID...

do you mind very much not pulliing my arm out of its socket or i might be forced to stick my toe up ya ass.

TurboTomato
15th-May-2007, 02:11 PM
Lead stronger, or do something else. It's extremely annoying when leads start telling you what to do next.

How can I lead a signal stronger?

I'm not in the habit of telling someone what to do, if someone misses a signal then I may try again to see if it was a one off and then I'll not try again, it's just a shame as I enjoy that move :flower:

Trouble
15th-May-2007, 02:16 PM
How can I lead a signal stronger?

I'm not in the habit of telling someone what to do, if someone misses a signal then I may try again to see if it was a one off and then I'll not try again, it's just a shame as I enjoy that move :flower:

you dont need to lead it stronger you just need to lead it more defined or accurate. you should be able to lead with just a little finger........ :wink:

LMC
15th-May-2007, 02:24 PM
What happens if someone isn't picking up a signal though?
Good job I've still got the can-opener.

Signals are Evil.

One exception: *agreed* signals between regular dance partners, used only with each other, to indicate an "unleadable" move that both partners know - some drops and aerials do need signals to prepare safely. Since I don't like unleadable moves and won't learn them and don't have a regular dance partner this does not apply to me.

Otherwise, different signals mean different things to different people. I am a follower. I follow. I don't learn moves (and rarely remember names of intermediate moves as so many are like "armjiveswizzlebasketalleluliawithdoublebackhander"- so it's no good shouting move names at me. If someone is struggling, and explains what they are trying to do, and we decide to work on it together, that's *entirely* different - it's dance floor drill (one-word orders) from arrogant move monsters who are just using me as a prop that I'm complaining about here. One well-known face on the scene won't dance with me any more since I stopped the dance and said to him "Please just lead me - I don't remember move names" (the track was Fire, *** - talk about ruining the mood). No great loss, frankly (on either side :rofl: )

Unless you are working on something by agreement, if something isn't working, then lead something different/turn it into something else.

I hate it when a guy taps his thumb on my hand "significantly". I follow whatever he's leading. Repeated thumb taps are likely to make me stop the dance and ask him what they mean. Then ask if the move has in fact gone right. If so, then I explain he doesn't actually need that thumb tap, because I followed it, didn't I? If another follower is not following it, then the lead should be adapting to them - not expecting them to learn the move for the lead's own gratification. If the move hasn't gone right, then it's either not leadable or he can't lead it so that I understand it (might be my faulty connection or his lead). Depending on the move/partner/track/mood, we'll either work on it, or "forget it". (NB that conversation does take place politely, I've typed the brutal version for speed).

Signals can be dangerous. A well-known signal is lead tapping their shoulder to indicate a First Move Jump. I danced with someone who used a shoulder tap as arm styling :sick: (I know that's what he was doing, I asked eventually) - he confirmed that he was NOT leading a First Move Jump. Just as well I was following and ignoring the mixed message of the signal - otherwise one of us could have ended up with a serious injury.


I'm not in the habit of telling someone what to do, if someone misses a signal then I may try again to see if it was a one off and then I'll not try again, it's just a shame as I enjoy that move
Definition of what you mean by a signal please? If a thumb tap/similar gesture which is nothing to do with the connection - big big big bad.

Remember - there are 600+ MJ "moves". You lead what you know. I bet it's not as many as 600. However, dancing with different leads all night, followers could *well* be following hundreds of different moves in one freestyle. We cannot *possibly* be expected to learn or remember them all. This is a) why the lead needs to lead and b) why the lead should always adapt to the follower's ability and not the other way around.

TurboTomato
15th-May-2007, 02:25 PM
you dont need to lead it stronger you just need to lead it more defined or accurate. you should be able to lead with just a little finger........ :wink:

Ah yes I can do that - by signal I mean say for instance when you put your right arm up (your right arm down, up, down..... no that's something else) when you're not holding on with your right to signal a neck-break (or whatever it's called) or the right arm behind the back to signal a pretzel etc. The particular one I'm thinking of starts off like a yoyo and is called the secret move where you signal with your left arm across your body.

That was my point - how can you lead a signal more strongly if you're not actually in contact with that hand?

Trouble
15th-May-2007, 02:38 PM
Ah yes I can do that - by signal I mean say for instance when you put your right arm up (your right arm down, up, down..... no that's something else) when you're not holding on with your right to signal a neck-break (or whatever it's called) or the right arm behind the back to signal a pretzel etc. The particular one I'm thinking of starts off like a yoyo and is called the secret move where you signal with your left arm across your body.

That was my point - how can you lead a signal more strongly if you're not actually in contact with that hand?

mind reading maybe!!! I dont think you can babe :what:

Twirly
15th-May-2007, 02:49 PM
Remember - there are 600+ MJ "moves". You lead what you know. I bet it's not as many as 600. However, dancing with different leads all night, followers could *well* be following hundreds of different moves in one freestyle. We cannot *possibly* be expected to learn or remember them all. This is a) why the lead needs to lead and b) why the lead should always adapt to the follower's ability and not the other way around.

:yeah:

I tried to rep you for all of the above but it wouldn't let me :(

I've highlighted the most important bit to me. The exception being, or course, when the follower is dancing with a newbie lead.

Dreadful Scathe
15th-May-2007, 02:52 PM
How can I lead a signal stronger?

If you lead more carefully, its always a stronger signal to the follower. "Stronger" here refers to the strength of signal, not the strength of the leader :)

SeriouslyAddicted
15th-May-2007, 03:42 PM
Ah yes I can do that - by signal I mean say for instance when you put your right arm up (your right arm down, up, down..... no that's something else) when you're not holding on with your right to signal a neck-break (or whatever it's called) or the right arm behind the back to signal a pretzel etc. The particular one I'm thinking of starts off like a yoyo and is called the secret move where you signal with your left arm across your body.

That was my point - how can you lead a signal more strongly if you're not actually in contact with that hand?

Erm - grow longer arms so we can actually see the secret move or pretzel signal! :love:

Astro
15th-May-2007, 03:51 PM
Erm - grow longer arms so we can actually see the secret move or pretzel signal! :love:

Yeah, it's quite dark most places. I find it helpful if the lead flaps his hand about when it's behind his back, makes it easier to spot.

StokeBloke
15th-May-2007, 04:12 PM
Yeah, it's quite dark most places. I find it helpful if the lead flaps his hand about when it's behind his back, makes it easier to spot.
Unfortuanately this also looks (IMO) nasty. If I signal a move and it isn't spotted, we don't do that move - no biggy, there's 599 other ones to work through in those three minutes :wink:

If someone misses (or ignores :whistle: ) a pretzel signal, does that make it an almost-almost-pretzel :D

Yliander
15th-May-2007, 04:44 PM
What happens if someone isn't picking up a signal though?then generally it means you ain't leading it right

Trouble
15th-May-2007, 04:46 PM
then generally it means you ain't leading it right

Blimey Yli, you beginning to sounds like a right londoner.

Mac
15th-May-2007, 04:58 PM
Yeah, it's quite dark most places. I find it helpful if the lead flaps his hand about when it's behind his back, makes it easier to spot.


:clap: :clap: :clap: Yeah I do that!!:waycool: Mind you I did it once and had my girlie in fits. She thought I had grown tail feathers :rofl: :rofl: so I guess you can over do it! :really:

CJ
15th-May-2007, 04:59 PM
then generally it means you ain't leading it right


Blimey Yli, you beginning to sounds like a right Aussie.

:whistle: :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

TurboTomato
15th-May-2007, 05:07 PM
Ah yes I can do that - by signal I mean say for instance when you put your right arm up (your right arm down, up, down..... no that's something else) when you're not holding on with your right to signal a neck-break (or whatever it's called) or the right arm behind the back to signal a pretzel etc. The particular one I'm thinking of starts off like a yoyo and is called the secret move where you signal with your left arm across your body.

That was my point - how can you lead a signal more strongly if you're not actually in contact with that hand?


then generally it means you ain't leading it right

Erm...

You mean I'm not doing the correct signal? As I said my point was about signals that do not involve contact.

philsmove
15th-May-2007, 05:34 PM
It is customary to shake hands with every occupant of a tube train when entering the carriage.
Have you tried the echo in the reading room of the British Museum?

killingtime
15th-May-2007, 05:39 PM
You mean I'm not doing the correct signal? As I said my point was about signals that do not involve contact.

Signals don't always involve contact. Often you'll find signals like the Neck Break is where you want your hand to be anyway (so the signal is also part of the move). However something I do worry about when I do a couple of moves is if I've stopped leading and I rely on the signal instead (this is bad). For example, on the Neck Break if all I'm doing is raising my hand and waiting for the follower to move to that I'm not leading any more. If I move the woman into my right hand side and raise my hand for the break then I am leading again. Indeed someone commented on me doing the hand "signal" at all since a few places in Scotland apparently don't teach it like that and move the follow and on the turn out raise the arm to neck level.

I'm a fan of almost pretzels ( or false pretzels or whatever you like to call them) and recently I started dropping the signal of your right hand at behind your back. If your body position is correct and you are leading the woman behind you that hand signal is pointless (though it can be fun snatching it away at the last second), it only servers a purpose in real pretzels and I don't like them so why indicate that I wanted to lead one?

Ghost
15th-May-2007, 05:47 PM
Erm...

You mean I'm not doing the correct signal? As I said my point was about signals that do not involve contact.
Try leading a false preztel and a neckbreak without using any signals. I know it sounds weird and you may need someone experienced to show you. But once you realise it can be done, signals pretty much go out the window. Concentrate on just moving the follow where you want them. Put you hand near their's and they'll pretty much take it 9 times out of 10 eg if you get them into the neckbreak position and rest you right hand on their shoulder, they'll probably take it with their right. You can lead them into the neckbreak position pretty much the way you lead a first move.

Edit - and what Killing time just said

MartinHarper
15th-May-2007, 06:25 PM
Try leading a false preztel and a neckbreak without using any signals.

False Pretzel and Neckbreak, sure. Turbo Tomato was referring to the regular Pretzel (right hand behind back) and the Secret move (left hand across stomach). Nigel's move (left hand behind back) is also worth discussing. I think it would be good to answer TT's question in that context.
(Though I guess answering the wrong question is on-topic for the thread title...)

Anyways, there are three options I'm aware of for leaders:
1. Become such an awesome leader that you can maneuver any girl's hand into yours even when her eyes are closed.
2. Don't lead moves that are hard to lead without the standard signals.
3. Wiggle your fingers, look at your offered hand, or otherwise attract your partner's attention to your offered hand.

And for followers:
1. Become such an awesome follower that any guy can maneuver your hand into theirs even when your eyes are closed.
2. Learn the handful of standard signals in Modern Jive.
3. Pay more attention to your leader.

Gav
15th-May-2007, 07:08 PM
Get your arm up or I will tear it orf an' it ya' round the 'ead wiv the soggy end! :mad: :mad: :mad:

Drill Sergent Circa 1975 OK I know its not strictly relevent but it made me very fond of my limbs!!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Funnily enough I heard that once or twice in the nineties! They never change do they? :rolleyes:

Ghost
15th-May-2007, 07:47 PM
False Pretzel and Neckbreak, sure. Turbo Tomato was referring to the regular Pretzel (right hand behind back) and the Secret move (left hand across stomach). Nigel's move (left hand behind back) is also worth discussing. I think it would be good to answer TT's question in that context.
(Though I guess answering the wrong question is on-topic for the thread title...)
:na:
Happy to elaborate further. With the Pretzel, Nigel's move and secret moves you can lead the follow to move herself so that her hand would naturally be near the one you want her to take. In my experience, if you offer it she'll take it. I'm drawing the distinction between using the signal to also mean "Please step over here and take this hand"; there's a distinct lead for "please step over here" that doesn't need a signal. I used the false pretzel and neckbreak simply because they're an easier starting place to try the concept in the real world.

LMC
16th-May-2007, 09:38 AM
Anyways, there are three options I'm aware of for leaders:
1. Become such an awesome leader that you can maneuver any girl's hand into yours even when her eyes are closed.
:yeah:


2. Don't lead moves that are hard to lead without the standard signals.
In terms of neckbreak/any kind of pretzel - the arm/hand movements described aren't signals IMO. They are visual leads: a hand is offered - the follower should take the hand. If s/he he doesn't then s/he is not following correctly. However, please bear in mind that the follower's reaction time for a visual lead is slower than for a connected one (especially if dark/flashing/dazzling lights - or baggy shirts can hide hands quite effectively too :rolleyes: ). As has already been said, you need to lead the follower in the direction with your connected hand, while offering the spare hand. Some leads expect you to take an offered hand immediately. IMO, "reaching" like this is wrong, and looks ugly. It also runs the risk that the lead will "rush" the move - e.g. by starting to lead the rest of the pretzel before you have stepped forward to be in the right position to follow the bit where you're walking behind his back. I follow the lead - I step in the direction led, then I take the spare hand when I'm in the right place to do so. Leads, be patient with your followers.


3. Wiggle your fingers, look at your offered hand, or otherwise attract your partner's attention to your offered hand.
Meh. If you must ...


1. Become such an awesome follower that any guy can maneuver your hand into theirs even when your eyes are closed.
:yeah: Lifetime's work, Xeno's paradox applies.


2. Learn the handful of standard signals in Modern Jive.
Meh, again - better described as if the lead offers his hand (whichever hand) take it with your free hand, or if both hands free, nearest hand*.

*Having said this, in MJ, if both your hands are free, then yes, a follower should generally offer right hand first. Having done other dance styles, I've got to the point now where I offer the nearest hand, which some leads find very disconcerting :blush: - but the better leads don't ...


3. Pay more attention to your leader.
BIG :yeah:

It's often said that if a move goes wrong, it's the lead's fault. This is true - but only if the follower is following.

Spiky Steve
16th-May-2007, 11:32 AM
My best example of bad advice when I started dancing.... from a non dancing friend.

"You don't want to go dancing"
:what:

Also "Southport or North Wales (Chill) is too far to go for a weekend away"
:what:

Steve
:waycool:

Jhutch
16th-May-2007, 12:45 PM
Give up ceroc!!!

(from a non-dancing friend - not something that was said to me on the dance floor!)

Lee Bartholomew
17th-May-2007, 08:50 AM
"your footwork is over complicated"

"you should do more obvious signals"

"when you go forward point your toes to the cealing and tap with your heel" -This is actually the way it is taught in Hastings!!!!!