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View Full Version : Moves, which no matter how much you practice them, don't feel right?



Terpsichorea
8th-May-2007, 08:44 AM
I've noticed that there are certain moves which even though I have taken pains to learn them, never really become part of my repertoire. I make the effort to learn them, but they never really take root. My two non-favourites are pretzelly moves and neckbreaks - they just don't feel right or comfortable to lead, even though I can do them competently.

Anyone else got any non-favourites?

Caro
8th-May-2007, 09:41 AM
The straightjacket (one where the lady ends up facing the man, both arm in a half nelson behind her back, guy holds both her hands behind her back).

Thanks god very few people lead it (even less lead it well!), but even with a flawless lead it feels so horrible. Complety trapped. :tears:

Double Trouble
8th-May-2007, 09:42 AM
Anyone else got any non-favourites?

I'm with you. I HATE anything Pretzel related. YAWN....!

Terpsichorea
8th-May-2007, 10:02 AM
I'm with you. I HATE anything Pretzel related. YAWN....!

Just out of curiosity, what are your favourite moves for a guy to lead you into? It's weird, a lot of blokes seem to enjoy pretzels, or cross body twisty style moves, but they never seem popular with followers.

Double Trouble
8th-May-2007, 10:11 AM
Just out of curiosity, what are your favourite moves for a guy to lead you into? It's weird, a lot of blokes seem to enjoy pretzels, or cross body twisty style moves, but they never seem popular with followers.

Completely off thread, but seeing as you asked.

The answer is easy. Anything simple, that I and the leader can add style and finesse to. I can't stand complicated moves where you get your arms in to all sorts of stupid positions. Its like Krypton Factor dancing.

Always remember....K.I.S.S.:wink:


















keep it simple, stupid

Terpsichorea
8th-May-2007, 10:16 AM
Completely off thread, but seeing as you asked.

The answer is easy. Anything simple, that I and the leader can add style and finesse to. I can't stand complicated moves where you get your arms in to all sorts of stupid positions. Its like Krypton Factor dancing.

Always remember....K.I.S.S.:wink:

















keep it simple, stupid

Its like Krypton Factor dancing :rofl:

Very true, though, that's often how it seems at an 'Advanced' Class. I wonder why they don't try to teach musicality rather than needlessly complex moves?

Double Trouble
8th-May-2007, 10:19 AM
Its like Krypton Factor dancing :rofl:

Very true, though, that's often how it seems at an 'Advanced' Class. I wonder why they don't try to teach musicality rather than needlessly complex moves?

If you look at my sister Troubles recent thread 'teach me something new', they are discussing that very subject there.

We are off topic. Careful....Franzxqk will smack your bottom.:wink:

Terpsichorea
8th-May-2007, 10:21 AM
If you look at my sister Troubles recent thread 'teach me something new', they are discussing that very subject there.

We are off topic. Careful....Franzxqk will smack your bottom.:wink:

Humph! He'll have to catch me first!

Gav
8th-May-2007, 10:24 AM
Strange. I've heard a few ladies moan that no-one ever leads pretzels and they love them, I also know a few ladies that love 'almost neck-breaks' (I think :confused:), but I know someone that absolutely HATES them :sick:.

With regards to getting the hang of certain moves, sometimes it just clicks. I tried pivot turns and penguin walks in lessons for a year, but could never get it. Nothing seemed right about it. The a very kind bloke and his partner showed me and within about 2 minutes I had it! Suddenly the move I hated the most was one I quite like now.

Terpsichorea
8th-May-2007, 10:28 AM
Strange. I've heard a few ladies moan that no-one ever leads pretzels and they love them, I also know a few ladies that love 'almost neck-breaks' (I think :confused:), but I know someone that absolutely HATES them :sick:.

With regards to getting the hang of certain moves, sometimes it just clicks. I tried pivot turns and penguin walks in lessons for a year, but could never get it. Nothing seemed right about it. The a very kind bloke and his partner showed me and within about 2 minutes I had it! Suddenly the move I hated the most was one I quite like now.

I find Penguin Walks quite difficult - at least when trying to do them with a partner! The problem - and I don't know if you've found this - is finding someone with whom you can iron out niggly moves. You can't really introduce them into freestyle because you're still not 100% sure of them, but it's equally difficult to find a willing partner to just go over them with you. Perhaps I need some private lessons....

Gav
8th-May-2007, 10:33 AM
I find Penguin Walks quite difficult - at least when trying to do them with a partner! The problem - and I don't know if you've found this - is finding someone with whom you can iron out niggly moves. You can't really introduce them into freestyle because you're still not 100% sure of them, but it's equally difficult to find a willing partner to just go over them with you. Perhaps I need some private lessons....

Haha! It's not just me! :worthy::clap::rofl:

Sorry:blush:, I do understand how you feel.

Depends on your 'comfort zone'. I can 1/2 learn moves when I'm on my travels and happily make an arse of myself at my local venue getting them wrong, because I'm with friends. Similarly, DT & her sister put up with me fluffing moves too, but I wouldn't even bother trying with strangers.

Terpsichorea
8th-May-2007, 10:39 AM
Haha! It's not just me! :worthy::clap::rofl:

Sorry:blush:, I do understand how you feel.

Depends on your 'comfort zone'. I can 1/2 learn moves when I'm on my travels and happily make an arse of myself at my local venue getting them wrong, because I'm with friends. Similarly, DT & her sister put up with me fluffing moves too, but I wouldn't even bother trying with strangers.

I like dancing with people I know, definitely, when trying out new moves. Then it doesn't matter if you make a complete c*ck-up of it, you can have a laugh and say in passing "Well that was a complete success!"

robd
8th-May-2007, 01:01 PM
Similarly, DT & her sister put up with me fluffing ... strangers.

:what:

GFP?

Double Trouble
8th-May-2007, 01:11 PM
:what:

GFP?

Don't knock it Rob. Where there is 'ahem' muck....there is brass.:rofl:

robd
8th-May-2007, 01:12 PM
I quite like doing pretzels and pretzel variations if the music is that bit faster than I normally like it but have to say I have never really enquired as to if my partner likes them :blush: However I have had positive unsolicited feedback on my leading of them quite often and I guess that's key - most moves are fine if lead well and smoothly and pants if not.

However, answering the original question I have been experimenting with a move I think of as the impossible move. It's from a Mick Wenger routine at MJC in 2004 and is v convoluted - Alice is the person with whom I have had most success leading it but then again it's probably an Aussie beginner's move :wink:

Mangles, in their various forms, also never feel right.

Chef
8th-May-2007, 01:30 PM
I've noticed that there are certain moves which even though I have taken pains to learn them, never really become part of my repertoire. I make the effort to learn them, but they never really take root. My two non-favourites are pretzelly moves and neckbreaks - they just don't feel right or comfortable to lead, even though I can do them competently.

Anyone else got any non-favourites?

ALMOST always if a move doesn't feel comfortable to lead (or follow) then something somwhere is going wrong. Often the place where things are going wrong is in that tiny little detail that the teacher told you but you didn't really appreciate because you were lost in a knot of arms at the time. Once you get the hang of where hands and feet should go then there still seems to be that one thing that is missing that means that the whole thing refuses to flow. If only you could remember what it was that the teacher said.

The best thing to do is to ask the teacher. After that the next best thing is to find a leader and a follower that can do the move with flow and ask both of them to help you.

The next best thing is to find a follower that is willing to help you work things out together. If it feels uncomfortable to you think how it might feel to a follower. Work through every little detail in slow motion and do not gloss over any details. Getting the preceeding part right often makes what is to follow possible and comfortable. Lastly, movements should flow without jolts (even blocking moves) so if it feels like body popping then something should change.

Your follower is extremely valauble in this process. You always end up doing what you do because that is what you know. Your follower has the opportunity to go away and experience the move with someone that can do it well and, if they are observant enough, come back to you and indicate the point where how you are doing it is going wrong. Good followers are very valuable and well worth listening to. They have a vested interest in generating good leaders.

Having said all this there are moves that I really don't like and that is mostly because they are too involved and I find that I can't fit them to music or are just too cheesy. My partner hates any move that is led badly or that messes up her hair (a huge no no) like something called the Barecelona stranglehold.

Raul
8th-May-2007, 03:47 PM
For guys like me with misspent youth, the names of these moves evoke memories of WWF/WWE (world wrestling federation/entertainment)

Half Nelson
Mangle
Neckbreak
now the Barcelona Stranglehold

the wrestlers had signature "finishing" or killer moves which they invariably tried to do, like the Figure 4 or the Backbreaker.

emm... come to think of it, we do have the Figure 8 and the Backbreaker in MJ

some of the dancers even try the Overhead Throw :what:

Who said dancing is not a Sport? :whistle:

.

MartinHarper
8th-May-2007, 10:36 PM
As it happens, I recently had some instruction in a "non-favourite move" that fixed it for me. The move was a swingout (aka whip) with an inside turn. Since learning the move, I'd always found it cramped and awkward. It "worked", in so far as everyone ended up in the right place with all limbs intact, but it wasn't graceful and didn't feel right.
Anyway, the teacher explained a couple of things I was doing wrong and demonstrated what would be better. One was to slightly alter the timing of the move, so that the inside turn came a little later. The other was a detail of positioning that allowed more space. The move feels better now. Once I've practiced this new way of leading it a little more, it should be great.

In other words, Chef's post is bang on the mark, regards uncomfortable moves often being a symptom of something going wrong. I suspect that many of the moves I'm currently less keen on I'd find great if I could get my technique for them fixed. Off the top of my head, that includes drops, lady duck moves, and that man spin with an extra spin. Also, I expect that a fair few moves that I currently dismiss as unleadable choreographed things are actually leadable moves taught badly.

Chef
9th-May-2007, 01:22 PM
Anyway, the teacher explained a couple of things I was doing wrong and demonstrated what would be better. One was to slightly alter the timing of the move, so that the inside turn came a little later. The other was a detail of positioning that allowed more space. The move feels better now.


Most people get the overall basics of a move at the first lesson. Everyone turns up at their first beginners lessons and gets the basics of the 4 moves and they are recognisable as those 4 moves. It is the small DETAILS that stop it from being cramped, awkward, jarring and lacking flow. The frustration comes because, as you say, no matter how much you practice it it never seems to work right. If you fail to find those small details (or have them explained to you) then you are going to be practicing doing it WRONG for a long time. Some people practice doing a move and make small changes and sometimes stumble across the details that "unlock" the move for them.

The best way is to find someone with a good understanding and an eye for detail to look at what you (and your partner) are doing and explain what to change and why. The explanation as to WHY is most important because it will help your own understanding of what things to look for in the future to avoid problems like these arising again. Some people feel that my approach is far too technical and detracts from the fun element. That may be.

I have a very simplistic view of things. If someone else can do something well then a solution to the problem exists. Through a mixture of observing and asking I can find that solution.

Yogi_Bear
9th-May-2007, 11:03 PM
For guys like me with misspent youth, the names of these moves evoke memories of WWF/WWE (world wrestling federation/entertainment)

Half Nelson
Mangle
Neckbreak
now the Barcelona Stranglehold



.

Is the last one a close relative of the Granada mangle? And why are Spanish cities being drawn on for the names of new MJ moves??

SeriouslyAddicted
10th-May-2007, 12:49 PM
The straightjacket (one where the lady ends up facing the man, both arm in a half nelson behind her back, guy holds both her hands behind her back).

Thanks god very few people lead it (even less lead it well!), but even with a flawless lead it feels so horrible. Complety trapped. :tears:

I was lead into this one by Ephraim last night and in his defence IMHO he has a flawless lead into it. I would not feel comfortable doing this move with someone I didn't know but with friends it can be quite a giggle.

robd
10th-May-2007, 01:02 PM
The straightjacket (one where the lady ends up facing the man, both arm in a half nelson behind her back, guy holds both her hands behind her back).


Comfort factor aside (which of course is a huge concern for the follower) I also think this move looks pretty awful even when lead well especially when the leader makes the follower walk towards him still in straightjacket position.

Raul
10th-May-2007, 02:41 PM
Comfort factor aside (which of course is a huge concern for the follower) I also think this move looks pretty awful even when lead well especially when the leader makes the follower walk towards him still in straightjacket position.

I don't do this move, but it does not have to feel or look awful if done properly.

Robert and Nicki use it well in one of their close moves classes. Accomplished dancers can take almost any move and make them look spectacular. With a lot of practice and some coaching any dancer can do these moves decently (in every sense of the word).


.

Terpsichorea
16th-May-2007, 08:12 AM
Just to add a bit more to this thread, there's a move I learned recently which has met with universal condemnation whenever I've tried to lead it. Whether this is down to my lead or the move just isn't a good one, I'll allow others to decide.

It's a Hatchback Lady's Nelson Cleaver, and the awkward bit comes when trying to make the transition from nelson to cleaver. As usual, a picture is worth a thousand words in this situation, but I'll try to explain: you're facing the lady, your right hand placed around her neck and holding her right hand over right shoulder. Her left hand is nelsoned behind her back, and you're holding it with your left.

What's supposed to happen is that you then take a step forward to her right, turning as you do to face her side on, and as you do so you straighten her left arm out and turn her into a cleaver. The problem arises with your right arm which is wrapped around her neck - as you move forward and round, you're effectively tightening your grip around her neck, which (so I've been told) feels like the move has 'gone wrong' and give the impression that you're trying to choke her.

I've seen it done, but only when the woman is small and her partner has big long arms, and she knows exactly what's happening. Otherwise, it's a tough move to lead correctly, IMHO.

Gadget
16th-May-2007, 01:38 PM
Two things that will make it easier:
1) don't get too fixated on having to hold your partner's right hand on their shoulder: your hand can be on their shoulder or back of the neck with equal effect. You should also be touching distance from your partner with your chest: the more room in the crook of your elbow, the better.

2) existing from the half-nelson make sure that you take the follower's hand down below their bum before raising it again to straighten it. Any other method involves either the follower bending at the waist or taking the arm away from the body (and both move them further from you.)

(Oh, and try really hard not to stick your bum out when leading it - that goes towards looking as if it's a mistake)

Terpsichorea
16th-May-2007, 01:50 PM
Two things that will make it easier:
1) don't get too fixated on having to hold your partner's right hand on their shoulder: your hand can be on their shoulder or back of the neck with equal effect. You should also be touching distance from your partner with your chest: the more room in the crook of your elbow, the better.

2) existing from the half-nelson make sure that you take the follower's hand down below their bum before raising it again to straighten it. Any other method involves either the follower bending at the waist or taking the arm away from the body (and both move them further from you.)

(Oh, and try really hard not to stick your bum out when leading it - that goes towards looking as if it's a mistake)

Hi Gadget - you're absolutely right about not sticking your arse out while leading this move...guilty as charged! :blush: I think moving closer will definitely help this move as well, I'll give it a shot and let you know how I get on