Just Wondering. . . .

[Itsybitsy]

I'm fairly new to MJ and here too (sorry if I'm repeating myself - just filling in the background) I started in September and watched in awe at the "good" dancers at my local venue, thinking to myself "I'll never be as good as that" or "wow I wonder if I'll ever be able to do that". Well 7 months down the line, those same dancers are still there looking good, but also still doing the same moves, and as I have progressed somewhat I can see each of the moves they do. Some of them are so far up themselves that you can see their own head coming out of their mouths (sorry) and they never ask me to dance (and I won't them out of principle now) When I go round in the classes I have had comments like "I don't like this move and I'm not doing it like that!". "I'm bored!". "This is the time when I start counting up to see who I'm going to end up with in freestyle!!" (and you wonder why I wont ask!!). Well my question is this:- It seems that most people (there) end up with around a dozen moves that they can do well and that's it, new moves are learnt (after a fashion) and abandoned. Is this what happens everywhere? and if not should I start to look for somewhere else to go instead?

Itsybitsy

[Cruella]

Out of interest which venue in the Midlands do you dance at?

[Double Trouble]

Hi Itsybitsy & welcome to the forum.

I remember when I first started ceroc. I used to be mesmerized by all the fantastic dancers at my local venue...thinking I could never be that good. None of them asked me to dance, but me being me, I asked them. No one ever refused, but you could tell they were giving a charity dance to a newbie.

I occasionally go back to my local venue....just for a laugh...and look at all the ones I used to think were hot shots. They are all crap....!:rofl:

These 'ahem' hotshots usually only dance with the same few people and that makes them terrible leaders.

The best place, I think, to have really great dances are at the weekenders. Don't be afraid to ask. Just get in quick before someone else does. If they refuse, it's likely they only have a few people they like to dance with and would be crap anyway.

I hope this helps.:flower:

[Trouble]

hi Itsy..

well its absolutely true, we all go through what your going through and even now, im going through a smiliar kind of experience. As my sister Double trouble has already stated, get yourself on the weekenders. These are the places that you really do learn how to dance. You will dance with great leaders, you will see great connection and you will find that your dancing improves no end. :grin: :D

xx

[Trousers]

I'm sorry




But i really do need to ask



. .. . . . . . .. I know
. . . . for sure that it's on the
the forefront of everybodies mind!






Do you have



a teeny weenie Yellow Polka dot Bikini or not?



We need to know



Ok I need to know

[Trouble]

I'm sorry




But i really do need to ask



. .. . . . . . .. I know
. . . . for sure that it's on the
the forefront of everybodies mind!






Do you have



a teeny weenie Yellow Polka dot Bikini or not?



We need to know



Ok I need to know

:rofl: - i think you was the only one wondering that .!!!

[Trousers]

:rofl: - i think you was the only one wondering that .!!!

It's a cross I know but I will bear it.

I'm looking forward to the uniforms at Southport too. :innocent:

[toys now with resurrecting the 'going commando' thread]

[Itsybitsy]

I'm sorry




But i really do need to ask



. .. . . . . . .. I know
. . . . for sure that it's on the
the forefront of everybodies mind!






Do you have



a teeny weenie Yellow Polka dot Bikini or not?



We need to know



Ok I need to know

:grin: :grin: :grin:
Sorry to disappoint you . . . .


but I've only got a black patent leather one with fur trim, tassels and matching whip.


Sorry Cruella, having said what I said I don't feel I can divulge my exact whereabouts - but it's not Rugby (I've heard it's quite good there, what night is it on?)

Thanks to everyone for your helpful replies, I think I will try to get out more (it sounds like Trousers needs to as well:grin: )

Itsybitsy

[MartinHarper]

7 months down the line, those same dancers are still there looking good, but also still doing the same moves, and as I have progressed somewhat I can see each of the moves they do. .... It seems that most people (there) end up with around a dozen moves that they can do well and that's it, new moves are learnt (after a fashion) and abandoned. Is this what happens everywhere?

That's quite typical. It's harder for intermediates to improve in a Modern Jive environment, compared to beginners. Most leaders end up with a repertoire of a dozen or so moves they use regularly, though they may improvise outside that working set. This happens in all the dances I've seen - it seems more a function of human limitations than teaching style or student attitude.

I won't comment on the arrogance you perceive in some of your fellow students, except to note that such perceptions can be subjective.

[Double Trouble]

I've only got a black patent leather one with fur trim, tassels and matching whip.

You do realise you have just hospitalised Trousers with that comment.:rofl:

[mikeyr]

I won't comment on the arrogance you perceive in some of your fellow students, except to note that such perceptions can be subjective.

:yeah: It is indeed a dangerous generalisation to make!

[Rocky]

That's quite typical. It's harder for intermediates to improve in a Modern Jive environment, compared to beginners. Most leaders end up with a repertoire of a dozen or so moves they use regularly, though they may improvise outside that working set. This happens in all the dances I've seen - it seems more a function of human limitations than teaching style or student attitude..

Welcome to the Forum ItsyB!

As Martin says, it happens all over and actually it's all to do with muscle memory. You have to do a move around a 100 times for it to come naturally in that tiny moment of thinking space that you have in between moves. That's why a lot of people pick a move up and then forget it fairly rapidly unless they consistently practice it.

Think yourself lucky that you are lady - at least every dance for you is potentially a voyage of discovery where as for us poor men... well, we're stuck with what we know. Not withstanding the wonderful women who can, on occasion, breathe life into our monotony and polish the t*rds of our dancing toilet, think how bored we become of ourselves...:wink:

[Itsybitsy]

I won't comment on the arrogance you perceive in some of your fellow students, except to note that such perceptions can be subjective.

Do you mean that I can be imagining it? . . . Perhaps so, after all you've only got my view. (I'll try to get out more)

That may sound tonugue in cheek - but I take your point.

Itsybitsy

[Rocky]

Do you mean that I can be imagining it? . . . Itsybitsy

:rofl: Best thing is to take up WCS for a while as control group and then let us know what you think...:whistle:

[Raul]

where as for us poor men... well, we're stuck with what we know. Not withstanding the wonderful women who can, on occasion, breathe life into our monotony and polish the t*rds of our dancing toilet, think how bored we become of ourselves...:wink:

What imagery! :what:

I have somehow got to wipe that from my mind now! :eek:

[DavidY]

Well 7 months down the line, those same dancers are still there looking good, but also still doing the same moves, and as I have progressed somewhat I can see each of the moves they do.Maybe they've read the many posts on this very forum from people advising that good leading isn't about learning lots of new moves all the time.:whistle:

[Itsybitsy]

Maybe they've read the many posts on this very forum from people advising that good leading isn't about learning lots of new moves all the time.:whistle:

Perhaps so. . . why have lessons learning new moves every week then? Why not just have the dozen or so moves and work on improving other dancing skills?

And that doesn't explain the bad attitude, the "I don't want to go into freestyle with a beginner"

Itsybitsy

[Lynn]

Perhaps so. . . why have lessons learning new moves every week then? Why not just have the dozen or so moves and work on improving other dancing skills? Because then it wouldn't be Ceroc, it would be Tango. :devil:


On a more serious note - it sounds like it would be a good idea for you to try other venues.

And remember that there are various reasons why 'better' dancers don't ask - it could be they are asked a lot or that they already have a long list of fav partners. Sometimes you have to ask them, and if they aren't actually refusing you, then its going to be good for your own dancing development to dance with them.

If they refuse repeatedly, then they are 'hotshots' and not worth worrying about.

[Tiggerbabe]

Perhaps so. . . why have lessons learning new moves every week then?
Different leads like different moves :)

[bigdjiver]

... When I go round in the classes I have had comments like "I don't like this move and I'm not doing it like that!". ...I sometimes say that. There are moves that I call "tell it to the judge." moves, where a small misjudgement can put the leaders hand where they should not be, others that are un-necessarily clumsy, and some that I regard as potentially dangerous, usually as part of a combination. e.g. a complex move followed by a sudden dip.

[Andy McGregor]

I was wondering about the polka-dot bikini, so it's not just Trousers.

On the subject of those "Hotshot" dancers, they are probably nice people, just misguided. As soon as you have people who you "don't ask to dance" you have taken the first step on the road to town Hotshot. There is only one group of people who I would rather not ask to dance, that is the ones who don't want to dance with me :tears: If a lady turns me down for a dance I try not ask her again because she has said that she doesn't want to dance with me. Having said that, I've been turned down by so many ladies (two last night :tears: ) it's hard to remember who they are. So, nowadays I don't try to remember and just ask everyone, man, woman or beast :wink:

My advice is to ask those poor, misguided, hotshots for a dance. They will dance with you or they will not. But your life will be released from the negative feelings you currently have about them - let those demons GO!

[Rocky]

Perhaps so. . . why have lessons learning new moves every week then? Why not just have the dozen or so moves and work on improving other dancing skills?
Itsybitsy

For someone new to the scene you are very perceptive. This is of course how MJ should be taught. Concentrate on the basics and only then, grasshopper, when you are ready to move on will we show you the mysteries of the cosmic pretzel...

However, human nature doesn't work like this and if Ceroc operated on this basis they wouldn't have anybody left in classes. Men, in particular, judge their progression in dancing based on the number of moves they can execute - this is entirely understandable but entirely wrong. It's far better to dance in time with the music and to execute the moves you do know stylishly and painlessly, rather than to chuck in one ill conceived move after another.

Guys get this so wrong, especially when dancing with teachers. Lady teachers are far more impressed by having a smooth, comfortable dance in time to the music rather that a mish mash of complicated jerks and twists with no sense of rhythm or timing - this is also true of sex and driving...

[Rocky]

Think yourself lucky that you are lady - at least every dance for you is potentially a voyage of discovery where as for us poor men... well, we're stuck with what we know. Not withstanding the wonderful women who can, on occasion, breathe life into our monotony and polish the t*rds of our dancing toilet, think how bored we become of ourselves...:wink:


What imagery! :what:

I have somehow got to wipe that from my mind now! :eek:

Might I be so bold as to suggest Andrex, Raul...? it's puppy soft and not only very kind on your tea towel holder but also very gentle on the Temporal Lobe.

[Dan]

Just wondering .........

So far we have covered - Bikinis, Sex , Driving and Toilets

What will we come up with next ? :rofl:

you do not need to go anywhere else Itsy Bitsy, there is more than just moves to this Forum. :rofl:

[DavidY]

Rugby (I've heard it's quite good there, what night is it on?)Missed this earlier... it's on Thursday nights.

As regards the moves .. as MartinH says, there are human limitations. For a long time I kept trying to learn new moves. Unfortunately I only seem to be able to hold a limited number of moves in my repertoire at once, so learning new moves always seems to involve forgetting old ones. :(

Nowadays I only try to remember a move from the Intermediate class if I particularly like it or (even better) if someone who's following tells me that they like it.

[Itsybitsy]

Just wondering .........

So far we have covered - Bikinis, Sex , Driving and Toilets

What will we come up with next ? :rofl:

you do not need to go anywhere else Itsy Bitsy, there is more than just moves to this Forum. :rofl:

No kidding . . . . . :clap: :clap: :clap:

Itsybitsy

[Raul]

No kidding . . . . . :clap: :clap: :clap:

Itsybitsy

True.

However i won't give the follower any space to do her "thing" for a few days. I will not be able to keep a straight face :rofl: :rofl: after what Rocky said!

[Itsybitsy]

Maybe they've read the many posts on this very forum from people advising that good leading isn't about learning lots of new moves all the time.:whistle:

Sorry, my reply of why not learn the dozen or so moves was in direct response to the above post, I can see that in order to continue forward, lessons and new moves have to be taught every week or else it will end up everyone doing the same thing and people loosing interest and leaving. But it's all straying well away from my original post and question. And for Andy McGregor, I just can't bring myself to ask this man to dance, (call it misguided arrogance if you like, I think it's a lack of confidence on my part) he said the bit about beginners to me (- and really that's all I am), if he asked me to dance I wouldn't refuse. If that makes me a "hotshot" then so be it, but often my partner and I are the only ones who dance with the beginners, and a lot of the better dancers only turn up at intermediate time.

Itsybitsy

[Rocky]

Missed this earlier... it's on Thursday nights.

As regards the moves .. as MartinH says, there are human limitations. For a long time I kept trying to learn new moves. Unfortunately I only seem to be able to hold a limited number of moves in my repertoire at once, so learning new moves always seems to involve forgetting old ones. :(

Nowadays I only try to remember a move from the Intermediate class if I particularly like it or (even better) if someone who's following tells me that they like it.

It's a common problem David. What Val and I try to teach on workshops is actually to consider a series of moves as one move rather than than to look at moves individually. On that basis you look at sequences of 2 or 3 moves as one move so that each triggers the muscle memory for the next. Once you've mastered this you will find that your repertoire increases exponentially.

This will tide the dancer over for a while until the point at which they realize that many moves are similair in lead and style and then they start to substitute one move for another in any given sequence. Then Bob's your aunty and you will be winning competitions and having women (and men, on occasion) asking for your phone number and inquiring as to the size of your lunchbox and the circumference of your spicy bratwurst.

So now we have bikinis, sex, driving, toilets AND food - what more is there to life??? Hmm... money maybe... OK so here's what you do... no, I'm not even going to go there..

[Raul]

Once you've mastered this you will find that your repertoire increases exponentially.

Then Bob's your aunty and you will be winning competitions and having women (and men, on occasion) asking for your phone number and inquiring as to the size of your lunchbox and the circumference of your spicy bratwurst.

So now we have bikinis, sex, driving, toilets AND food


Oh those sequences ! :whistle: If I remember correctly the moves go like this -

Ask her if she does Dips and Drops then quietly assess if the structure has undergone much underpinning, check the size of the balcony and look at the rear of the building.

alternatively

Take the baby out for a spin, see how she handles the turns and returns, listen to the purr of the engine, admire the headlights and bumpers. enjoy the smoothness of the emm.. ride.

Mind you if the lights are on and no one is at home or if the car stops suddenly and one of the doors flies open to hit the driver in the face, it is sure sign that the Leader has made the wrong move.

Here you go, we have now covered bikinis, sex, driving, toilets, food, architecture and test driving.


.

[nebula]

I sometimes say that. There are moves that I call "tell it to the judge." moves, where a small misjudgement can put the leaders hand where they should not be, others that are un-necessarily clumsy, and some that I regard as potentially dangerous, usually as part of a combination. e.g. a complex move followed by a sudden dip.
I have a move I really don't like - don't remember the name of it, but it's when man wraps his hands around your ... er:blush: ... bum, and then turns you around, and then it's usually followed by a 1 1/2 turn. I feel really uncomfortable with it, as, unless my partner has really :grin:, really long arms, they are going :really: where they shouldn't.
I had a dance once, where my partner tried to execute this move about 3 times in the single dance - I know I have a cute :innocent: bum, but come on... I had to eventually stop and tell him that I really don't like that move. However, there was one leader I danced with that had this move perfected, so his hands were kept to himself, I didn't loose my balance trying to avoid a touch, and the return was led fantastically.
Going back to the original discussion, would you rather like the new/untried moves all the time?
I guess, I would still stick with the good dancers/leaders who have a smaller array of moves, but have them top-notch and only add to the variety now and again to get the excitement :yum: levels up!

[Rocky]

I have a move I really don't like - don't remember the name of it, but it's when man wraps his hands around your ... er:blush: ... bum, and then turns you around, and then it's usually followed by a 1 1/2 turn.

Ask SilverFox, I'm sure he'll know what that move is called...

[FoxyFunkster]

I have a move I really don't like - don't remember the name of it, but it's when man wraps his hands around your ... er:blush: ... bum, and then turns you around, and then it's usually followed by a 1 1/2 turn. I feel really uncomfortable with it, as, unless my partner has really :grin:, really long arms, they are going :really: where they shouldn't.
I had a dance once, where my partner tried to execute this move about 3 times in the single dance - I know I have a cute :innocent: bum, but come on... I had to eventually stop and tell him that I really don't like that move. However, there was one leader I danced with that had this move perfected, so his hands were kept to himself, I didn't loose my balance trying to avoid a touch, and the return was led fantastically.
Going back to the original discussion, would you rather like the new/untried moves all the time?
I guess, I would still stick with the good dancers/leaders who have a smaller array of moves, but have them top-notch and only add to the variety now and again to get the excitement :yum: levels up!

i think you`ll find you were the victim of a very poor "long backhander" by the sounds of it.....although there are some women who like them sometimes....:wink:

[Andy McGregor]

i think you`ll find you were the victim of a very poor "long backhander" by the sounds of it.....although there are some women who like them sometimes....:wink:There was a move taught by Mikey. He led a spin by placing his hand in what he called the lady's "butt crack" :sick: Is that the one you mean?

IMHO, MJ needs no moves like this and no teaching like Mikey's :eek:

[nebula]

There was a move taught by Mikey. He led a spin by placing his hand in what he called the lady's "butt crack" :sick: Is that the one you mean?

IMHO, MJ needs no moves like this and no teaching like Mikey's :eek:

Eugh!!! :eek:
But no, it's not finished by the spin, just by the faster/longer turn. And as I said, when it's done properly - although I've encountered only 1 :clap:(!!!) person to lead it properly - it's alright, and even nice.

[Cruella]

Ask SilverFox, I'm sure he'll know what that move is called...

I didn't think he was the type to bother with names. :whistle:

[fletch]

Some of them are so far up themselves that you can see their own head coming out of their mouths (sorry) and they never ask me to dance (and I won't them out of principle now)
Itsybitsy

if you smile at the world it smiles back at you, honey,:flower: you won't ask them out of principle :sick: give them a smile and ask, they might see you as a miserable cow, :rolleyes: prove them wrong :wink:

when people have been coming to a venue for a while, its easy for them to look unfriendly, but you see so many peolpe come and go, I can understand some people just waite to see if newbies are going to stick at it first. :flower:



Out of interest which venue in the Midlands do you dance at?

:yeah:


(I'll try to get out more)



at least if you do, you will be in a position to comment :what:



And that doesn't explain the bad attitude, the "I don't want to go into freestyle with a beginner"



Have they actually said this :confused:

I might have missed it, or is this just the impression you get :confused:




My advice is to ask those poor, misguided, hotshots for a dance. They will dance with you or they will not. But your life will be released from the negative feelings you currently have about them - let those demons GO!


:yeah:



I just can't bring myself to ask this man to dance, (call it misguided arrogance if you like, I think it's a lack of confidence on my part) he said the bit about beginners to me (- and really that's all I am), if he asked me to dance I wouldn't refuse. If that makes me a "hotshot" then so be it, but often my partner and I are the only ones who dance with the beginners, and a lot of the better dancers only turn up at intermediate time.



I neaver do lessons, I hate them ....7 ladyies on does nothing for me, but I dance and ask everyone :clap: 'but two' :what: so I only turn up at intermidiate time, for a chat :wink:

we are all looking for something in dance and its not the same for everyone, a long as your not hurtfull to people, each to there own :hug:



IMHO, MJ needs no moves like this and no teaching like Mikey's :eek:

Andy :rolleyes:

live and let live :hug:

[MartinHarper]

i think you`ll find you were the victim of a very poor "long backhander" by the sounds of it....

Oh, I was assuming a hip spin.

[Andy McGregor]

Andy :rolleyes:

live and let live :hug:Don't worry Fletch, you can spin me via my butt-crack any time you like. Is that enough "live and let live"?

[fletch]

Don't worry Fletch, you can spin me via my butt-crack any time you like. Is that enough "live and let live"?

so were ok to do it but not to teach it :confused:

:whistle:

[stewart38]

I'm fairly new to MJ and here too (sorry if I'm repeating myself - just filling in the background) I started in September and watched in awe at the "good" dancers at my local venue, thinking to myself "I'll never be as good as that" or "wow I wonder if I'll ever be able to do that". Well 7 months down the line, those same dancers are still there looking good, but also still doing the same moves, and as I have progressed somewhat I can see each of the moves they do. Some of them are so far up themselves that you can see their own head coming out of their mouths (sorry) and they never ask me to dance (and I won't them out of principle now) When I go round in the classes I have had comments like "I don't like this move and I'm not doing it like that!". "I'm bored!". "This is the time when I start counting up to see who I'm going to end up with in freestyle!!" (and you wonder why I wont ask!!). Well my question is this:- It seems that most people (there) end up with around a dozen moves that they can do well and that's it, new moves are learnt (after a fashion) and abandoned. Is this what happens everywhere? and if not should I start to look for somewhere else to go instead?

Itsybitsy

Why don’t you ask them to dance ?

Id like to think if you saw me dancing ceroc in 1997 you would see the same moves in 2007 (consistent me)

I did learn a new one Barcelona dance holiday in 2005

I’m not joking here

I don’t have the brain time care or inclination now days to learn 400 intermediate moves or 1000 how ever many there maybe be and lets face it half those would need to be choreographed

Why you moaning im sure 50 different men must do what 100 different moves

I’m stuck with my 12

Maybe a way for men to learn more is to be led more ?

where does your 'attitude' come from ?