Does learning to lead improve your following and vice versa?

[Freudian Hips]

This question came to me on the Why do women still choose non gender balanced weekedners ? thread
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Jamie suggested


Learn reverse roles so you can dance with everyone

And got me thinking ..... :D

I am happy to lead at a beginners' class when we are men/leaders down but find it difficult to switch quickly between roles. I am always a bit relieved when the freestyle starts and I can be a girl again.

I don't really have a desire to lead. "Why not?" I ask myself because usually I do rather like to be in total control :devil: ...... I think not wanting to lead may be because I:

Have enough difficulty following and want very much to improve that :blush:
In my other dance life I have total control, a big focus on technique and on memory - I want something very different from my MJ life
Several experienced dancers have said that learning to lead made them a less good follower



Would be very interested to hear the views and experiences of others on this :respect:

Ta
Ali xx

[firefly]

Good thread FH.

I've only been dancing MJ a little while longer than you, and started leading in the beginner's class a few months back. My main reason was to gain some insight into the other role; to find out how a follower could help or hinder the leader. I was certainly amazed at the number of ladies I came across in the rotation with spaghetti arms! I also gained even more empathy for beginner guys :worthy:

A secondary aim was, as Jamie says, to be able to potentially dance with anyone. However I'm a long way off being reasonably happy with my freestyle leading, and to be honest I'm in no rush; I definitely see following as my main role with leading being something I dip into. I'd like to do a beginner's workshop as a lead at some point, and get to a reasonably competent level though.

I've asked one or two of my regular partners if learning to lead has made my following deteriorate. So far it doesn't seem to have (unless they were just being polite :sick: ), but if I ever thought it did, I'd go back to concentrating on following.

I think it's a very personal thing. I've heard of people who started doing the other role a matter of months after starting MJ, and can be good at both, whilst for others it can be years down the line. And of course there are some who never learn the other role at all. Speaking personally I think they're two different skill sets, and I'm enjoying the challenge of both :waycool:

[Mezzosoprano]

Someone suggested to me that if I learnt to lead I would perhaps improve my connection....which I need to improve. I haven't started yet though and wouldn't mind some tips - Nessiemonster often leads in the beginner class at Inverness and I've had several freestyle dances with her... she's a really nice lead... clear and doesn't pull you all over the place!

[TheTramp]

I'm mainly of the opinion that it's best to learn one skill before you start to learn another. There are a few people that can learn to do both almost simultaneously, but not many. And it's not just a question of deteriorating, it's also a question of not learning one skill as quickly as you might.

It's only the last couple of years that it's become much more popular to do both roles. While some of the better ladies have, in the past, learned to lead, until maybe 2-3 years ago, you'd hardly ever see any guys following. Now it appears to be much more the norm - with people who, to be frank, aren't that good at one role, trying to do both. And, before I get somewhat warmed, in the case of ladies wanting to lead to stop the "15 ladies on" thing, I do understand.

Why doesn't it help? Mainly because they are both quite different skills, and, at the start, it's good to concentrate on one. Jack of all trades, master of none springs to mind. If you want to improve your connection, then practice your connection in the skill you want. Speak to people who know what they are talking about, about why you think your connection isn't great. And don't rely on advice from those that aren't qualified to give it (Mezzo, of course I'm not saying that whoever gave you the advice doesn't know what they're talking about, cos I don't know who it was).

Also, I've heard people say that 'doing the other skill can help improve the skill that you do'. I'm not 100% convinced of this. I'd again suggest that if you're not sure that (for example) the tension in your arms is right, ask someone who can give you good advice on the matter. Being a man, and understanding that some girls have 'spaghetti' arms is well and good, but that doesn't necessarily tell you how much tension you should have in your own arms. Just that the people in question don't have it right.

Of course, as I said at the start, there are those people that can learn to do both roles, and be good in both roles. These people are the better dancers anyhow. Or the people who will be the better dancers. It certainly doesn't apply to everyone, or indeed most people.

[Mezzosoprano]

I'm mainly of the opinion that it's best to learn one skill before you start to learn another. .....with people who, to be frank, aren't that good at one role, trying to do both.

Speak to people who know what they are talking about, about why you think your connection isn't great. And don't rely on advice from those that aren't qualified to give it (Mezzo, of course I'm not saying that whoever gave you the advice doesn't know what they're talking about, cos I don't know who it was).



Oh man! He means me.... EEK! Erm.... Embarassment.....

I feel myself that I need to work on my connection because sometimes I just don't get the lead... I assume, of course, that it's my difficulty to be corrected (doesn't everyone?). Although, it has to be said Trampy... I loved dancing with you - even if I felt like I should apologise afterwards!!:blush:

[Nessiemonster]

Nessiemonster often leads in the beginner class at Inverness and I've had several freestyle dances with her... she's a really nice lead... clear and doesn't pull you all over the place!

:blush: :blush: :D Thank you!!

I started learning to lead due to the "15 ladies round" phenomenon which is quite a regular occurence up here. (In fact, if I remember rightly, it was actually Trampy who 'suggested' I start... :whistle: :flower: ) I had only been dancing MJ for 5 months when I started leading beginners (just over a year ago now). I now lead in beginners, intermediate and freestyle. For me it was a chance to spend more time dancing, and to provide me with a new challenge.

From my perspective, some of the pros and cons...

Pros

Leading has underlined for me just how important it is to have good connection (as both lead and follow) and actually follow what is led, and not anticipate.
Being first a follower means I know what helps me to follow a move (good connection aside. It is possible to follow when connection isn't so great, as long as the moves are clearly led), and I endeavour to lead in that way (though don't always succeed!)
Leading now means I am more versatile and can dance more.Cons

As Trampy said, understanding the importance of connection etc doesn't make it easier to do it - leading and following are such totally different skills.
I find I can't focus on improving one area of my dance. If I'm dancing up here then my focus is on leading, anywhere else and it's on following. This means that neither skill is improving as fast as I would like!
It is difficult to start with to swap between leading and following. It took me a long time before I could lead again after dancing as a follow in the evening. However, now I can happily flit between them, even within the one dance (and that's Fun!! :devil: )For me the pros and cons pretty much even out.

Leading and following really are totally different skills. I started leading slightly out of necessity, and possibly wouldn't have thought about it otherwise. Having said that, I wouldn't change it and I really enjoy leading, though I prefer following. But I do really struggle with not being able to do either as well as I would like, and not being able to readily improve both at the same time.

I don't believe there is a conclusive answer as to whether leading will improve your following - everyone is different. But learning to lead may well highlight things you want to improve in your following. But beware - you might then end up in the boat I'm in, wanting to improve both!! :wink:

[StokeBloke]

Learning to lead may have a detrimental effect on you as a follow. I know it is something Twirlie Bird refused point blank to do when she used to be a Taxi because of advice given to her by follows who said their dancing and following had suffered as a result of leading.

[TheTramp]

Oh man! He means me.... EEK! Erm.... Embarassment.....

I feel myself that I need to work on my connection because sometimes I just don't get the lead... I assume, of course, that it's my difficulty to be corrected (doesn't everyone?). Although, it has to be said Trampy... I loved dancing with you - even if I felt like I should apologise afterwards!!:blush:

Well yes, and no. You're a fairly new dancer, and yes, you need to improve your following skills (although, after 8 years, I'm still working on my leading skills - you think I'd have it by now eh!). But I wasn't meaning you alone. Not by a long way.

And yes, by all means, work on your connection. But do it as a follower. Unless you want to have a good connection as a lead. They are somewhat exclusive, although, not totally so. Do remember though that it may well also be the lead not being clear enough, and not just you not getting it.

And thank you. I enjoyed the dance too. No apology wanted, or necessary.

[Mezzosoprano]

Well yes, and no. You're a fairly new dancer, and yes, you need to improve your following skills (although, after 8 years, I'm still working on my leading skills - you think I'd have it by now eh!). But I wasn't meaning you alone. Not by a long way.

And yes, by all means, work on your connection. But do it as a follower. Unless you want to have a good connection as a lead. They are somewhat exclusive, although, not totally so. Do remember though that it may well also be the lead not being clear enough, and not just you not getting it.

And thank you. I enjoyed the dance too. No apology wanted, or necessary.

Thanks for the advice....I think given the advice, I should stick to learning to follow better! and if that means "15 ladies on" then that's what it means...! Franck says I'd follow better if I stopped thinking... thinking seems to be my downfall!

[ducasi]

Would be very interested to hear the views and experiences of others on this :respect:
This thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/beginners-corner/11585-dancing-man.html) might make useful reading...

[MartinHarper]

People who, to be frank, aren't that good at one role, trying to do both.

I certainly match that description. Especially outside the world of MJ: a couple weeks ago I was trying (and largely failing) to follow some Balboa. That's a dance where I can only lead a single move, and I have to concentrate quite hard just for that.
On the other hand, I'm sure Trampy would agree with me that there's nothing wrong with learning more than one thing at once.

----

Anyways, to answer the question: "Does learning to lead improve your following?".

I think the more interesting questions are "Does learning to lead improve your leading?" and "Does learning to follow improve your following?". The answer to that can sometimes be "no". Regular MJ classes are subject to diminishing returns. Insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.

Learning the complementary role is a form of cross-training. Alternative forms of cross-training include trying out a new dance, taking up a martial art, or learning a musical instrument. Each of these has benefits and drawbacks. Regardless, I'd recommend cross-training in a way you find enjoyable. Fun is a great motivator. Ideally find something that is enjoyable enough that you want to learn it for its own sake.

[Itsybitsy]

Bearing in mind the fact that I don't know what I am talking about . . . . I started learning to lead at Christmas (only been dancing since September - hence the "I don't know what I'm talking about") I was going on holiday in Feb and suggested to a friend that she came along and learnt a few move so we could dance together on holiday - well of course she failed to turn up but I continued to learn to lead, we don't have "15 ladies on" as it's not that big a venue but there are sometimes 6. Learning to lead for me now is because:-
A) I can only do intermediate moves as fast as my regular male partner can learn them and remember them, that's not being insulting to him.
B) When the ladies outnumber the men (as they nearly always do) to stand out, then try to do the move with a man who can't do it so you have no idea when you get to a man who can, is just too frustrating.
C) Standing out too much is just not cricket - or dancing, if there are surplus ladies at class time then they are surplus all evening and there are some who never get asked to dance by the men, I've just got enough confidence in what I am doing now to ask them so we all benefit.
Has it made my following any better or worse? Well it seems to me as an occasional observer that the really good ladies haven't a clue how a move is made up - they just learn the leads (sorry I'm not insulting the good ladies there) I'm not like that . . . but I have learnt to do as I'm told, I can swop roles, the opinion seems to be it can only be done at the expense of being a good follower - perhaps I never will be then, but at least I'll be dancing.

Itsybitsy

p.s. I was at a freestyle venue recently and three youngish folk came in 2 girls and a boy, one of the girls and boy started dancing in swapped roles, they looked fantastic, then the three of them danced with the other girl as lead, it was just awesome to watch. And fun too.

[Raul]

I'm mainly of the opinion that it's best to learn one skill before you start to learn another. There are a few people that can learn to do both almost simultaneously, but not many. And it's not just a question of deteriorating, it's also a question of not learning one skill as quickly as you might. ##

## Of course, as I said at the start, there are those people that can learn to do both roles, and be good in both roles. These people are the better dancers anyhow. Or the people who will be the better dancers. It certainly doesn't apply to everyone, or indeed most people.

Very well put !

Many female taxidancers that i know have deteriorated in their dancing after learning to lead. You can see then reading the moves and they often anticipate instead of just flowing with the music and the lead. I dare say that some female teachers are the same. I would imagine that it takes a very peaceful and relaxed mind and good dance listening skills to follow properly.

Few people become great at leading and few great at following. Sure it may be interesting to know what it feels like from the other's perspective, but only occasionally and only to improve one's primary skills. I reckon you can learn as much by putting your full attention on what you are doing in the first place.However I could be wrong.

.

[TheTramp]

On the other hand, I'm sure Trampy would agree with me that there's nothing wrong with learning more than one thing at once.

Certainly would. Can't deny this at all.

However, as said before, in most cases, this will lead to a detriment in your speed at learning either well. Obviously. The more you practice one, the faster you'll get better at it. So, if you're doing it for fun, then fine, do both.

However, if you are aiming to improve either skill and become a better dancer, then practice the one you want to improve. Don't bother trying to learn one to improve the other. It doesn't.

[Franck]

The question on the thread title is slightly misleading from my perspective.

I believe that learning to lead well for followers can have a hugely beneficial impact on their following skills. Learning about connection from the other side, experiencing the feel of different followers, understanding how to lead a change of speed or lead a break, etc. can add many facets to your following.

However, simply joining a few classes and learning a few moves does not make you a good lead, though it probably takes slightly less time for a reasonably good follower to learn to lead properly. Which would explain why many followers have reported a worsening in their dancing after starting to lead.

One of the classes I'll be teaching at Blaze will be "Hi-jacking the Connection" and will effectively be teaching good leading skills to followers (Whilst the leaders will be taught how to listen more and effectively learn to follow better) so that they can share the connection and control the intensity / level to achieve a more rewarding, musical dance.

So short answer? Leading can harm your following, learning to lead well will improve your following substantially! :nice:

[MartinHarper]

If you are aiming to improve either skill and become a better dancer, then practice the one you want to improve.

I'd mostly agree with that, assuming that the practice is good practice, and not suffering too much from diminishing returns.
However, I feel that if I am aiming to learn and retain a number of skills over the long-term, then it's better to learn and practice them at least a little in parallel.


Don't bother trying to learn one to improve the other. It doesn't.

I'm surprised you would go this far. As a simple example, if a guy spends an hour practicing following, he'll get a fair bit of practice in spinning. It seems obvious to me that this will improve his spinning when he is leading, in those few moves that have the leader spinning. So there is a real cross-training benefit just from that.

[TheTramp]

I'm surprised you would go this far. As a simple example, if a guy spends an hour practicing following, he'll get a fair bit of practice in spinning. It seems obvious to me that this will improve his spinning when he is leading, in those few moves that have the leader spinning. So there is a real cross-training benefit just from that.

And, if he spends an hour just practising spinning, will he be further ahead in his spinning than if he'd spent the time learning to follow, and got a little spinning benefit from that?

[Jamie]

I look at Leading and following as completely seperate dances in themselves. Similar to how WCS is different from MJ. I don't think, being a man, therefore a leader, is affecting my following. I would like to improve both leading and following, the only way I can do that is through practice and on an average night, I normally try and lead and follow around 50-50. Sometimes, especially on weekenders, I follow more than I lead.

I think what also has helped my following, is that I dance with every lead available, so I'm not used to one particular lead. Just as I've learnt to lead by leading everyone available!

So in short, my leading improved 10-fold since I started to learn to follow (2 months after I started learning to lead) and as a result, my following has improved.

[LMC]

I don't think it was learning to lead that disimproved my following. It was taxi-ing that disimproved my following. I'm sorry to say that some of the worst followers I have experienced as a lead are taxis (and in fact, some of the yankiest leads) - and the only reason my following (hopefully) never quite got that bad was because of the variety of venues I dance in - where I wasn't taxi-ing. We have to remember that many dancers only dance once or twice a week, always at the same venues.

Of course we should all help to "bring beginners on" etc blah blah blah. However, for a follower to dance nearly exclusively with beginner leads has a negative effect - you have to dance slightly 'protectively' as beginner leads cannot be expected to be as aware of your balance, which direction it is possible for your shoulders to go in at that particular point in time, do weird stuff that you half "have to" translate so as not to discourage them, etc. Unfortunately, it's not always easy to switch that defensiveness off when you dance with someone more experienced. Leaders dancing nearly exclusively with beginner followers sometimes get 'yanky' as a method of emphasising the lead to those followers.

Learning to lead gave me every sympathy for the difficulties experienced by beginner leads - and helped me adapt my following accordingly (NO backleading. Make weight changes as obvious as possible. Disconnect feet from hand if you want to mess about a bit, so as not to confuse them - etc.)

As my lead has improved, I've started to enjoy leading more - which means that I lead more, my leading improves, etc etc. I also really sympathise with the "must learn more moves" thinking - my lead musicality is not as good as my follow musicality and I get bored with myself sometimes when I'm leading :D Leading has given me a good insight on "what I need to work on" in my following (especially if I recognise that I do things that really annoy me when I'm leading :blush: ). As far as switching between leading/following goes - it's practice is all, as others have said. Steal dancing is perfect for this - and wicked good fun.

I don't think learning or not learning the other role necessarily has any effect on how "good" you are to dance with. Thinking of the followers I most admire/enjoy watching - and I'm going to name names, not out of luvviness, but to prove my point: Lory, Lily, ZW - don't lead, or lead very rarely. Sparkles, Tessalicious and Taz are all superb leads, as well as follows.

What has the greatest effect on your dancing is working on improving your dancing - whichever role/s you are learning. Learning the other role is not a "fix" for whatever is wrong in the first one you learned. Nor is it essential.

[Shodan]

I find it very helpful to do some following every now and then. I find it helps my leading a lot as I can understand better what the follower is doing during their moves and thus I can help lead it better, keep the follow better balanced etc etc.
Everyone should try reversing roles every now and then so you can see what its like from the other side. :nice:

[MartinHarper]

And, if he spends an hour just practising spinning, will he be further ahead in his spinning than if he'd spent the time learning to follow, and got a little spinning benefit from that?

Absolutely. Though possibly a little green around the edges.

[TheTramp]

Absolutely. Though possibly a little green around the edges.

Doesn't have to be a single, non-stop practice!! :yum:

I learnt to spin long before I started learning to follow, by arriving at my venue 15 minutes earlier than normal, when there was no-one there, and practising my spinning before anyone arrived to laugh at me!

[TheTramp]

I find it very helpful to do some following every now and then. I find it helps my leading a lot as I can understand better what the follower is doing during their moves and thus I can help lead it better, keep the follow better balanced etc etc.
Everyone should try reversing roles every now and then so you can see what its like from the other side. :nice:

Do you really believe this? Cos I've heard it before, and mostly I think that it's just one of those things that people say.

When I'm being a follower, I spend most of my time working on not thinking. I certainly don't spend it trying to understand better what other followers are doing!

When I'm working on a new move, or trying to lead an existing one better, I ask followers who know what they are doing how my lead was, and if I can improve it. Most of them can provide me with hints and tips. And are in a far better position than me, dancing with someone else who's lead may be the same as mine (although this is unlikely!). That gives me advice that is specific to my lead, and I suggest more helpful than the other.

That's probably just me though.

[SeriouslyAddicted]

Well I am someone who both follows and leads. I have been following for a year and leading for about 6 months. I mainly started to lead for two reasons, firstly as Trampy has said because of the 15 women on syndrome, and secondly because many of my dance friends at that time were female and it meant that we could dance amongst ourselves if there were no men to dance with. Whether or not it has improved or worsened my following skills, I am not sure I can really say - guess it would need my partners to comment, but all I can say it that learning to lead has imrpoved my enjoyment of the lessons and means I can have a bit of fun in freestyles with trusted partners to hijack the lead etc.

[Shodan]

Do you really believe this? Cos I've heard it before, and mostly I think that it's just one of those things that people say.

Yes. When I'm leading (my normal role as I'm a bloke) I don't know what it feels like for the lady doing the moves I do and how I put them together.

To do my moves back as a follower means I can experience this and thus make my leads better, more comfortable and in some cases completely change it. It also gives me a better understanding of how dizzy the lady might be feeling after X move and probably its not a good idea to do Y move after it.

[MartinHarper]

I've heard it before, and mostly I think that it's just one of those things that people say.

It's certainly a commonly held belief amongst dancers and teachers. For example, it's mentioned in the rec.arts.dance FAQ:

FAQ: Lead and Follow, section 8.6 (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/role_switching.html)

For about a year, I had the experience of leading and following MJ, but only leading Lindy, not following Lindy. During that time, I found that I had a more "holistic" understanding of MJ. Lindy was more of a "black box", where I knew what worked, but often didn't really know why it worked.