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TA Guy
2nd-May-2007, 01:43 PM
One of the things that I am lousy at is musicality.

I recently brought Robert Winter and Nikki Halsam's DVD on musicality in a bid to self-improve. Great DVD, really good music theory section, really good section on ladies musicality, but as far as the mens musicality goes, there was a good bit on breaks, and sliding was shown, but other than that, not really a lot. I was a bit disappointed in that section.

To kick it off, I personally do the breaks thing if I read the music correctly, the odd, admittedly half hearted ronde or two, but that's about it. I can't get my head around Jordan type poses or striking attitude, So, guys, throw me a bone here :) What musicality do you do ?

Double Trouble
2nd-May-2007, 01:47 PM
So, guys, throw me a bone here :) What musicality do you do ?

My advice would be this;

Dance like there is no one else in the room (apart from your parter, obviously). Let yourself go, feel the music & be confident.


Oh...and do a musicality workshop, that might help.:flower:

Jamie
2nd-May-2007, 01:50 PM
I tend to get most of my musicality style from whatever's happening in the song, if it's a simple break with no musical background at all, then it's a simple stop and pause. However, if theres some kind of music still going off in the background, then I do whatever is needed for that piece of music.

Lets forget about "men" and "ladies" for a sec, one of my favourite dancers who incorporates musicality into her dancing is Tatiana (of Jordan and Tatiana) I've adapted some of her styling into my own dancing, and her breaks and pauses are never the same. take a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-hhppMF_vg) video to see what I mean.

Jamie

TA Guy
2nd-May-2007, 01:59 PM
My advice would be this;

Dance like there is no one else in the room (apart from your parter, obviously). Let yourself go, feel the music & be confident.



Yah, of course, easier said than done. I am comfortable with how I dance, but I will never be that guy. At least, I've never made it in a decade and a half :)

Looking for more precise ideas.
Like... Flourishes, easy to do, hard to do well like so any things, but something that I feel is more suited to the feminine side of the partnership (just my opinion about me when I do them, not a comment on any other blokes that do them).
Speed changes, slow stuff to fast music for a short period is another musicality style that blokes can do and it don't look 'wrong'.

Gav
2nd-May-2007, 02:03 PM
Yah, of course, easier said than done. I am comfortable with how I dance, but I will never be that guy. At least, I've never made it in a decade and a half :)

Me either, some of the stuff Jamie looks for and does, looks amazing, but there are some of us that just couldn't carry it off and some of us that can't quite "let go" enough to even try!


Looking for more precise ideas.
Like... Flourishes, easy to do, hard to do well like so any things, but something that I feel is more suited to the feminine side of the partnership (just my opinion about me when I do them, not a comment on any other blokes that do them).
Speed changes, slow stuff to fast music for a short period is another musicality style that blokes can do and it don't look 'wrong'.

Speed changes sometimes happen when the music demands it, eg when you hear a crescendo coming. Sometimes, you can drop to half speed on a whim and look perfectly good.

I'm still struggling with it all BTW. :blush:

TA Guy
2nd-May-2007, 02:04 PM
Lets forget about "men" and "ladies" for a sec, one of my favourite dancers who incorporates musicality into her dancing is Tatiana (of Jordan and Tatiana) I've adapted some of her styling into my own dancing, and her breaks and pauses are never the same. take a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-hhppMF_vg) video to see what I mean.

Jamie

Oh God Yes! She is my goddess :)
Great funky track on that clip. Wish they played more music with that kind of variation, even a wooden top like me can get into it then :)

Double Trouble
2nd-May-2007, 02:05 PM
Yah, of course, easier said than done.

Sorry. Just trying to help. I did also say do a class. Some would argue that you either have musicality or you dont, but I think it can be taught to a degree. If you really feel you can't master it by watching other people, do a class...it might help a bit.

Gav
2nd-May-2007, 02:09 PM
Sorry. Just trying to help. I did also say do a class. Some would argue that you either have musicality or you dont, but I think it can be taught to a degree. If you really feel you can't master it by watching other people, do a class...it might help a bit.

:yeah::yeah::yeah:

CJ introduced me to musicality as an alternative to learning more moves. (that's how I saw it anyway :blush:)
It all seemed way over my head at the time as I couldn't listen to the music and dance at the same time.
Less than a week later I had my "moment" when I started hearing the music and everything CJ had said suddenly made sense.

I'm thinking about looking for another workshop now 'cos I feel a bit stuck at the mo. It could just be that I need more practise. :blush:

Sheepman
2nd-May-2007, 02:13 PM
There are a few tips here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/105788-post46.html), and even a bit of sensible discussion in the thread :really:

Greg

Sheepman
2nd-May-2007, 02:17 PM
Wish they played more music with that kind of variation, Little known fact no. 1 - there is much more music in a track after you have seen Tatiana dance to it. (Or even better, danced with her to it :drool: )

Greg

David Franklin
2nd-May-2007, 02:17 PM
Sorry. Just trying to help. And I actually think it's very good advice. I know the biggest problem I had/have with musicality is being afraid to try things. So unless I'd set up the break perfectly and knew exactly when it was coming, I wouldn't try to hit the break. Best piece of advice I was given: no matter what, try do something on the break, even if you just stop. And yeah, the first 50 times or so, that "something" was pretty pants. But you never improve if you are too scared to try.

Not that it's easy; I still fall into "comfort zone" way way too often.

It's interesting that the biggest transformation I think I've ever seen was the one Matt Dawson had in SCD this year. He went from looking embarrassed to be there to a real performer in a single week. And who was responsible? An acting coach.

Jamie
2nd-May-2007, 02:23 PM
Little known fact no. 1 - there is much more music in a track after you have seen Tatiana dance to it. (Or even better, danced with her to it :drool: )

Greg

Roll on Southport... :D

TheTramp
2nd-May-2007, 02:26 PM
Lets forget about "men" and "ladies" for a sec, one of my favourite dancers who incorporates musicality into her dancing is Tatiana (of Jordan and Tatiana) I've adapted some of her styling into my own dancing, and her breaks and pauses are never the same. take a look at this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-hhppMF_vg) video to see what I mean.

The guy wasn't too bad either! :respect:

David Franklin
2nd-May-2007, 02:29 PM
The guy wasn't too bad either! :respect:What are you talking about? He wasn't so good. Way way less than 18 spins...

TA Guy
2nd-May-2007, 02:32 PM
Sorry. Just trying to help. I did also say do a class. Some would argue that you either have musicality or you dont, but I think it can be taught to a degree. If you really feel you can't master it by watching other people, do a class...it might help a bit.

:flower: :flower: :flower:
You can learn musicality. I can do some just picked up from other dancers really. It's quite possible to learn it, I know this because for a long time I thought musicality was the ability to read sheet music or something and while I maybe a musicality Skoda, I am at least on the road... :)

I would love to do more classes, unfortunately, living where I do, opportunities are few and far between. Weekenders would be my best bet, but I can't do classes and extra long freestyle nights/mornings, so I tend to miss those. Nonetheless, have attended two non-weekender workshops. One was musical theory, useful and great fun. Other was supposed to be Blues Expression, turned out to be just Blues moves, I was a bit disappointed even tho the class was good in it's own right.
Your right tho, I am prolly gonna have to interrupt my afternoon siesta and commit to a weekender musicality class or two.

Jamie
2nd-May-2007, 02:32 PM
The guy wasn't too bad either! :respect:

Very true, but I'm sure you'll agree Tatiana out shines him for originality!

He actually reminds me of Noel. Both of which are fabulous dancers! :respect:


What are you talking about? He wasn't so good. Way way less than 18 spins...<joke><joke>

Yeah, wasn't impressed with his pirouette! That said, Tatiana's travelled! :eek:

</joke>
[/joke]</joke>

TheTramp
2nd-May-2007, 02:33 PM
What are you talking about? He wasn't so good. Way way less than 18 spins...

And they were on the spot too. Apart from that last one. What an amateur! :na:

Rocky
2nd-May-2007, 02:48 PM
Unless you're really confident in your ability to interpret a break in the music best thing is to keep a stable frame and let the lady do the work. As long as she's got something to push and pull against she'll generally make you look good and will also enjoy the space you have given her - win, win.

Geordieed
2nd-May-2007, 02:55 PM
The guy's name is Pete Green. He is a very popular (well deserved)social/strictly dancer on the Swing circuit in America.

Tatiana does have an incredible ear for the music. For anyone going to Southport you'll see how much the camera can't pick up and the difference there is in seeing her and Jordan dance infront of your eyes...

MartinHarper
2nd-May-2007, 11:42 PM
I recently brought Robert Winter and Nikki Halsam's DVD on musicality in a bid to self-improve. Great DVD, really good music theory section, really good section on ladies musicality, but as far as the mens musicality goes, there was a good bit on breaks, and sliding was shown, but other than that, not really a lot. I was a bit disappointed in that section.

Robert Winter shares Rocky's opinion that men should stand still and let the women look good - "less is more" and all that - so I wouldn't buy a DVD from him and expect to improve my solo styling.

There are ways to improve your dance confidence, which will allow you to practice solo styling pieces in public. For example, "performance" classes, "strolls", solo dance, competitions, jam circles, or even taking acting classes. There are options here. You could also try practicing solo styling elements in front of the mirror at home until you feel really comfortable with them. Often competence breeds confidence. Start with making your half-hearted rondes more fully-hearted, and go from there.

Whitebeard
3rd-May-2007, 12:45 AM
Me either ...........

Me neither ;-)

TA Guy
3rd-May-2007, 12:03 PM
Robert Winter shares Rocky's opinion that men should stand still and let the women look good - "less is more" and all that - so I wouldn't buy a DVD from him and expect to improve my solo styling.


So I was in good company when I was using that excuse then ? :devil:

Rocky
3rd-May-2007, 12:12 PM
There are ways to improve your dance confidence, which will allow you to practice solo styling pieces in public. For example, "performance" classes, "strolls", solo dance, competitions, jam circles, or even taking acting classes. There are options here. You could also try practicing solo styling elements in front of the mirror at home until you feel really comfortable with them.....

All good advice.... However, adopting a motionless, but meaningful stance is still the least painful and embarrasing option - unless you've just chuffed of course, in which case you spin for the nearest exit like a Woodface:sick:

Astro
3rd-May-2007, 12:49 PM
Robert Winter shares Rocky's opinion that men should stand still and let the women look good - "less is more" and all that - so I wouldn't buy a DVD from him and expect to improve my solo styling.



adopting a motionless, but meaningful stance is still the least painful and embarrasing option

Yeah, stand still you guys, let us women strut our stuff, don't hog the limelight.

Simon r
3rd-May-2007, 01:42 PM
Roll on Southport... :D

When you watch her in the flesh so to speak she can be very intimidating and it took me nearly the whole weekend to ask for a dance.

But make sure you do she is so friendly and full of compliments to help get over the fear...


Jordan was also very approachable and Nicole fell in love straight away

MartinHarper
3rd-May-2007, 03:55 PM
All good advice.... However, adopting a motionless, but meaningful stance is still the least painful and embarrasing option

My feeling is that following the kinds of suggestions I made (and better suggestions along similar lines other people can give) will help people feel as comfortable with styling elements as they do playing statues. That goes for both men and women.


Yeah, stand still you guys, let us women strut our stuff, don't hog the limelight.

You want the limelight, you gotta work for it. :)

Jamie
3rd-May-2007, 06:03 PM
When you watch her in the flesh so to speak she can be very intimidating and it took me nearly the whole weekend to ask for a dance.

But make sure you do she is so friendly and full of compliments to help get over the fear...


Jordan was also very approachable and Nicole fell in love straight away

I find that feeling to be a complete waste of time, which is why I ditched it long ago! As you say, it took you nearly the whole weekend to ask her, think of all the dances you could have had! I'll grab her friday night and will follow her like a bad smell till she leaves :D

Jamie
3rd-May-2007, 06:05 PM
Yeah, stand still you guys, let us women strut our stuff, don't hog the limelight.

But, if you do, most women look at you gone out like "what you actually want me to do something! :eek:"

Ohh the horror! :rolleyes:

This is why it can be useful for men to do something too, usually if the women have an inkling of what the man wants her to do, she'll try and follow it, so if he leads her into a break, whatever he does, she'll mirror. Almost always happens with me, then I get thanked because otherwise they'd be worried about what they should do on breaks.

dave the scaffolder
3rd-May-2007, 06:36 PM
Aye aye the best piece of advice i was ever given about musicality was by CJ and it was, try one new thing, anything, hit a break, if you miss the first couple pay no heed, when you have mastered that change try another in a couple of months you will be beside yourself. Do not try to do too much too soon. One change at a time.

Just by discussing this you have taken a step up in your dancing with self criticism comes improvement. XXX XXX DTS

Caro
3rd-May-2007, 07:03 PM
What musicality do you do ?

I'm not a guy, but I do think that guys can add musicality in many other ways that just 'freeze and let the lady do her stuff'. :what:

A few ideas:

- lead half speed or double speed when the music suggests it

- phrase the music (ie ensure you start a new move at the beginning of a major phrase, if you can try and make that new move contrasted with the previous one (from close move to bigger move with more distance for example) - see the recent threads on the subject for more info

- if there's something interesting in the music but you don't know what do to, lead an 'invitation pass' (just a change of place where you make it clear that the lady can take as long as she wants and do what she wants), that way the lady can do something if she wants to but is not forced to (way better than just 'freeze and do your stuff girl!' :sick: )

- practice embellishments like rondés, slides, drags, kick-ball-changes, tap, slow turns, multiple spins, and once you can do them very well, do them only when there is something in the music that matches

- use combs to hit accents, or more generally on an accent try to be very sharp in what you lead (you could hit an accent with a turn).

- listen to the lyrics and lead accordingly when appropriate, for example if 'sway with me is played', lead a sway when the lyrics go 'sway with me'.... (not all the time though! once or twice is fine)
there're plenty of words you can play with, like rise (lead something where your arm rises), slow, fast, up, down etc the list is endless

hope it will give you ideas :flower:

Jamie
3rd-May-2007, 07:10 PM
- listen to the lyrics and lead accordingly when appropriate, for example if 'sway with me is played', lead a sway when the lyrics go 'sway with me'.... (not all the time though! once or twice is fine)
there're plenty of words you can play with, like rise (lead something where your arm rises), slow, fast, up, down etc the list is endless

hope it will give you ideas :flower:

Wow, that's one of the first bit of musicality I ever did in a dance, I remember looking at my partner (a good friend of mine) and saying wow did u notice what I did then (all proud like) :D and she was all - no - :what:

Mac
3rd-May-2007, 10:05 PM
I absolutely love it when I know a track so well that i know all thw words and all the breaks so that I can really lead the theme of the track. :nice: I harken back to Susan and Lifes a beach at Chill. Still not had another dance as good. Sigh :worthy: ( But ive come close a few times!):flower: :clap:

Wave Dancer
3rd-May-2007, 11:46 PM
But, if you do, most women look at you gone out like "what you actually want me to do something! :eek:"

Ohh the horror! :rolleyes:

This is why it can be useful for men to do something too, usually if the women have an inkling of what the man wants her to do, she'll try and follow it, so if he leads her into a break, whatever he does, she'll mirror. Almost always happens with me, then I get thanked because otherwise they'd be worried about what they should do on breaks.

I think this is good advice - particularly for women that are still breaking out of their own comfort zones with musicality. This may also include being a bit 'sexier' in their dance style and some women can feel uneasy about doing this as it may be misinterpreted by the guy - thus their fear to break free. So guys, make sure you help her feel 'ok' about this.

Sometimes I get frustrated watching other dancers (to try and get some of my own ideas) as I can see from a spectator's point of view, that they're not confident. I want to go out there and shake them up and tell them to just let go and feel/listen/enjoy the music.

Coming from Australia, I think women are encouraged from the beginning to let go and 'play' more. It doesn't seem to be done too much over here by the guys unless they're advanced dancers, or with comfortable partners. Hijacking the move is also a lot less common.

Perhaps your musicality battle would improve if the ladies also learnt to relax and let go as well.

Ladies - strut your stuff, let go, be sexy and take control - the guys will love it and respond well! This inturn will automatically help both with their confidence towards musicality.

Gadget
4th-May-2007, 05:56 PM
...So, guys, throw me a bone here :) What musicality do you do ?
See the "Style" workshop thingie on my syg...

Robert Winter
31st-May-2007, 02:26 PM
One of the things that I am lousy at is musicality.

I recently brought Robert Winter and Nikki Halsam's DVD on musicality in a bid to self-improve. Great DVD, really good music theory section, really good section on ladies musicality, but as far as the mens musicality goes, there was a good bit on breaks, and sliding was shown, but other than that, not really a lot. I was a bit disappointed in that section.

To kick it off, I personally do the breaks thing if I read the music correctly, the odd, admittedly half hearted ronde or two, but that's about it. I can't get my head around Jordan type poses or striking attitude, So, guys, throw me a bone here :) What musicality do you do ?
Sorry that you felt that the sections on guy styling were not up to snuff. I had long held off on doing a musicality and style DVD as I don't think that anything more than the basics could be covered in such a production as there are just SOOOOOO many variations that one could end up with weeks and weeks of footage to watch and still not cover the topic. As such the DVD was intended to give people something of an intro to the world of musicality and style and for the first time, on DVD, document in a concise format how music theory fits with MJ and give people some isolation options that they can practice so as to learn better body control.

If you want something more in depth then a private lesson is the only way to go as musicality and style isn't like patterns, as it needs to be tailored not just to each song but to each dancer. Something that Amir would do to a particular track would look just silly if I tried it and possibly vice versa. We each need to find our groove and then boogie within and around it.

Look at the top dancers and think, "what is it about them that works so well"? Most of all learn how to control your body actions. Although a lot of the styling on the DVD is for ladies, the body isolation concepts are the same for both guys and girls. ie can you move your hips without having to move your shoulders. etc. etc.

From there focus on the most important aspect of dance, self awareness. So many dancers fall short because they just can't comprehend that the action they are performing is nothing like what their "role model" is doing. As such they get part of the way there and then stop fine tuning. The greats are great because they never stop fine tuning their movements, even their basic action.

The way I move in a man breakthrough (man spin) and traveling return today is a very long way from how I moved through it 1 year ago, let alone 5 years ago. I focus hard on my basics and keep on refining them and this filters through to the rest of my dance.

Robert Winter
31st-May-2007, 02:38 PM
Robert Winter shares Rocky's opinion that men should stand still and let the women look good - "less is more" and all that - so I wouldn't buy a DVD from him and expect to improve my solo styling.I am not totally sure that exactly covers my thoughts on the topic. But I do feel that less is more. Though, I don't think that I am the only male dancer to share this opinion. I remember a dancer, don't know if any of you will have heard of Jordan Frisbee, expressing a similar line of argument. ;)

But, then if you want to decide whether or not to buy a DVD from me or attend a workshop or class watch my dancing. If you truly believe that it does have have any style or quality then I agree with Martin. Don't buy and don't attend. But I like to think that I have one or two valid concepts on styling to offer. :)

However, I have said that if your body control and expression of music resembles a combine harvester in full flight, then it is probably best you stand still and not distract from what your beautiful partner is doing.

Where a lot of guys fall short is they forget the old maxim about partner dancing "the woman is the picture and the man is the frame". The key is that a frame must match the picture. If it is too ornate and over styled then even a Rembrandt will end up looking like it was painted by Liberace., but if the frame has been carefully chosen and balances the picture then it will enhance it.

So, if what you are doing complements your partner then chances are it is good styling, if however you are so focused on your own styling that it is not only distracting from what your partner is doing but is compromising your dance, then it is bad style.

Caro
31st-May-2007, 02:58 PM
...the DVD was intended to give people something of an intro to the world of musicality and style and for the first time, on DVD, document in a concise format how music theory fits with MJ and give people some isolation options that they can practice so as to learn better body control.




So, if what you are doing complements your partner then chances are it is good styling, if however you are so focused on your own styling that it is not only distracting from what your partner is doing but is compromising your dance, then it is bad style.

not withstanding your points on style, I seem to understand that you link a lot 'style for men' and 'musicality' - is that right (I haven't seen your DVD)?

Personally I think it's completely possible for a guy to lead a dance extremely musically without being stylish at all. (obviously it looks better if he is stylish too :rolleyes:, and you could distinguish leading musically vs dancing musically).
Hitting breaks and accents, phrasing the music, changing the tempo of the dance, leading to an instrument rather than the main beat, giving the follow space to play, all that can be done with no style whatsoever. And that's a very good thing, cause a lot of men seem to be worried and not very confident when it comes to 'style', and would rather leave that to their follow...

MartinHarper
31st-May-2007, 08:37 PM
Since we're name-dropping West Coast teachers, I guess I'll quote Parker Dearborn from this Saturday, who said as he was showing the leads how to hit a pose in a whip variation, "there are two types of guys: dancers and posers". His point, I think, wasn't that one type was superior to the other, but that there are these two distinct approaches to partner dance as a guy, and both are valid. There are people who move well and people who stand well. And there are people who are ugly at any speed.

It doesn't make sense to take lessons in posing from dancers, or lessons in dancing from posers.

The poser aesthetic really doesn't speak to me, but that's another thread.

TA Guy
31st-May-2007, 09:06 PM
Sorry that you felt that the sections on guy styling were not up to snuff. I had long held off on doing a musicality and style DVD as I don't think that anything more than the basics could be covered in such a production as there are just SOOOOOO many variations that one could end up with weeks and weeks of footage to watch and still not cover the topic. As such the DVD was intended to give people something of an intro to the world of musicality and style and for the first time, on DVD, document in a concise format how music theory fits with MJ and give people some isolation options that they can practice so as to learn better body control.


I thought Ms Halsam's piece on spinning musicality was excellent, as were your explanations of music theory. In Ms Halsam's piece, there was lots of spinning variations shown, and lots of hints. OK, much of the variations weren't covered in any depth, but it showed you what could be done.

Speaking only for myself, I would have liked that for the men, some full blown teaching obviously, but also more just simple 'showing'. To give us ideas. To play with.

Mind you, plenty of stuff for men that like to spin :)

Robert Winter
31st-May-2007, 11:51 PM
Since we're name-dropping West Coast teachers, I guess I'll quote Parker Dearborn from this Saturday, who said as he was showing the leads how to hit a pose in a whip variation, "there are two types of guys: dancers and posers". His point, I think, wasn't that one type was superior to the other, but that there are these two distinct approaches to partner dance as a guy, and both are valid. There are people who move well and people who stand well. And there are people who are ugly at any speed.

It doesn't make sense to take lessons in posing from dancers, or lessons in dancing from posers.

The poser aesthetic really doesn't speak to me, but that's another thread.It wasn't a case of name dropping. Simply (and this is in no way directed at you Martin) that some people in the UK don't like me as a dancer. I don't take it personally as they are fairly anti-Aussie (and in some cases just anti "big names") as they feel we are really just forklifts with flashy moves and little to no musicality. It is a real shame, but none the less a belief held by some.

As such when an Aussie makes an assertion it can run the risk of being shot down out of hand and I felt that to reference one of the greats who would not be marked with "auto criticism" may help to get an important dance point across.

Though, from your post it would seem were are of accord, so I am not entirely sure why in this case you adopted a negative attitude to my abilities to teach Gents styling.


not withstanding your points on style, I seem to understand that you link a lot 'style for men' and 'musicality' - is that right (I haven't seen your DVD)? In short yes. There is a school of thought that separates them. But I tend to use the word style in sense of "cool". One can have "styling" (ie nice lines etc.) but I don't think one can be stylish without musicality.

Hitting a break, accenting a highlight in a song (with smooth lines) is what makes a dance look "tip top".

Minnie M
1st-June-2007, 12:26 AM
{off topic for one post}
I am sooooooooooooooo jealous of Martin Harper :tears: in the land of WCS and getting paid too :blush:

Wish I had a job that sent me to America for a couple of months or so :sad:

MartinHarper
1st-June-2007, 03:15 PM
I am not entirely sure why in this case you adopted a negative attitude to my abilities to teach Gents styling.

Well it comes back to what I said: "It doesn't make sense to take lessons in posing from dancers, or lessons in dancing from posers". The impression I get from your posts and the few times I've seen you dance is that you take the "poser" route. That's fine. It means that I'd expect your lessons and DVDs to focus on other things: things that are more important to your ideal of good partner dancing.

mick
1st-June-2007, 04:53 PM
One of the things that I am lousy at is musicality.

So, guys, throw me a bone here :) What musicality do you do ?

I can fully recommend


The Whitley Bay Academy of Musicality

straycat
1st-June-2007, 05:08 PM
I can fully recommend


The Whitley Bay Academy of Musicality

How so? What can it do for one?