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Gus
1st-May-2007, 08:30 PM
Although Ceroc has made some brave changes in the class format, I’m not sure that it works well. There seem to be a lot of ‘intermediate’ dancers who seem to get the very basics wrong, e.g. stepping back too far, off balance, pulling the lady round, no concept of the beat. I’m wondering whether its something to do with the focus on moves. I know we teach ‘key points’ … but are these the right key points.

Do we need to relook at what makes a dancer a better dancer and find a simple way to feed it to beginners..(or should we start having exams to move up to intermediate classes :devil: )

dave the scaffolder
1st-May-2007, 08:36 PM
Good post my man I personally think that everything is far too focused on the moves.

After a year or two of dancing the moves become secondary to dancing to the music.

This is obviously a personal opinion but i think musicality should be taught at intermediate level so we can all dance with more expression.

CJ, Dave Plummer and a few others have hammered this into me and it is beginning to sink in.

The less is more principal is one that i try to adhere to.


XXX XXX

StokeBloke
2nd-May-2007, 03:02 AM
Ceroc do teach Ceroc Basics. But I have only seen Maya and Jayne teach it in the Midlands :worthy:, and a fantastic version of it taught by Carol McFadden in Wilton (Wiltshire):worthy:. If you want to see a highly skilled teacher instilling proper dance values and great method into a class with fun and humour go to watch Carol teach. I kid you not - she is on a completely different frikkin level (first Thursday of the month Richard Oliver is there too) :D

Maya told me quite early in my dancing (listen to me talking like an old-timer; I'm still just a baby now) that "moves are just a way to get around the floor. Dancing is not about moves but about connection". It's a shame then that Ceroc insist on cramming move after move after move down your throat. What is the point of teaching a follow an intermediate variation of the catapult if instead of spinning they bounce around in a small circle with her thumb leaving a bellybutton sized dent in the back of your hand?!? Or teaching a lead ANYTHING intermedate if they aren't moving in and out at all when they dance?!?

I stopped doing lessons a few weeks back. Not because I am some know all hot shot. But because I have enough to be going along with and I need to concentrate on musicality and lead and other things. But this means that if I go to a Ceroc night, I pay £7:00 on the door and get just an hour and forty-five minutes of dancing. :( Or spend 30 minutes learning pretzel variations with one arm up in the air, and eight ladies on please... eight ladies on - pass me a gun so I can shoot myself now! Structure is good, but there needs to be some flexibility somewhere.

If you want to learn musicality, you can. If you want to learn style, you can. If you want to learn about connection and many other important things to make you a real dancer, you can. You just have to dig deep and pay up for extra workshops :sick: It's like teaching kids maths at school, but making them pay if they want to learn multiplication!

Gadget
2nd-May-2007, 01:19 PM
Although Ceroc has made some brave changes in the class format, I’m not sure that it works well. There seem to be a lot of ‘intermediate’ dancers who seem to get the very basics wrong, e.g. stepping back too far, off balance, pulling the lady round, no concept of the beat. I’m wondering whether its something to do with the focus on moves. I know we teach ‘key points’ … but are these the right key points.
Are you looking at the existing "intermediate" dancers, or those who were beginners when the 'essentials' ("key points") came into place and are now "intermediate"?

Those who are a bit longer in the tooth at this dancing lark tend to take the attitude of not bothering to actually listen to anything said from the stage and just going through the movements to get through the moves. And since they are the peer group that the newer dancers look to, I would think that it will take quite a while before any distinct benifit is seen. (Especially when you take into account the retention rate)


Do we need to relook at what makes a dancer a better dancer and find a simple way to feed it to beginners..(or should we start having exams to move up to intermediate classes :devil: )The simplest way is through the moves - a Ceroc(MJ?) class is not there to teach people how to dance; it's to get people on the floor and having fun while they take it uppon themselves to learn how to dance. What it should do is have information that will make people better dancers hidden/embeded within it - like hideing veg on a kids plate so they wil eat it.
The intermediate classes should have the same food, just with the veg on the side for those 'adult' enough to eat it. :wink:

{IMHO of course}

Double Trouble
2nd-May-2007, 01:38 PM
After a year or two of dancing the moves become secondary to dancing to the music.

:yeah:


i think musicality should be taught at intermediate level so we can all dance with more expression.

:yeah:


The less is more principal is one that i try to adhere to.

:yeah:

tsh
2nd-May-2007, 01:49 PM
This is obviously a personal opinion but i think musicality should be taught at intermediate level so we can all dance with more expression.


Not a bad idea. It gives a clear distinction between the two classes, and provides a hook in to teach all manner of bits of detail through the appropriate moves. It shouldn't impact the beginner retention, might force out a few intermediates who can't get it (but this might improve retention of others).

Musicality seems to be the in thing now that Ceroc have noticed there is a demand for music that isn't just thump-thump.

The biggest drawback to this is that I know there are MJ teachers who can't even count on the beat, let alone interpret the music...

Sean

Double Trouble
2nd-May-2007, 01:51 PM
The biggest drawback to this is that I know there are MJ teachers who can't even count on the beat, let alone interpret the music...

Ain't that the truth.:rofl:

Gav
2nd-May-2007, 01:59 PM
Adding all the extras needed to be able to dance rather than just learn moves won't work in Ceroc's current class nights.

1. There just isn't enough time
2. I suspect there's only a minority of us that actually care enough to want to do it. The rest just want to go through their new moves and get on with it.

I really think it's best left in workshops and specialist lessons, where you can have more individual attention and more time to work on it in a dedicated lesson. And it won't be imposed upon people who aren't interested.

Yes, there are plenty of Ceroc Teachers who are great Ceroc moves dancers, but haven't even heard of musicality or improvisation.

TheTramp
2nd-May-2007, 02:19 PM
Adding all the extras needed to be able to dance rather than just learn moves won't work in Ceroc's current class nights.

1. There just isn't enough time
2. I suspect there's only a minority of us that actually care enough to want to do it. The rest just want to go through their new moves and get on with it.

I really think it's best left in workshops and specialist lessons, where you can have more individual attention and more time to work on it in a dedicated lesson. And it won't be imposed upon people who aren't interested.

Yes, there are plenty of Ceroc Teachers who are great Ceroc moves dancers, but haven't even heard of musicality or improvisation.

What he said. I was going to write a similar post, but I got sidetracked.

Especially point 2. Most people aren't interested, and I think that you would soon see class numbers drop. However, I think that it's great that workshops are being taught on this sort of thing. I believe that there's 2 of them at Blaze next weekend! :cheers:

tsh
2nd-May-2007, 04:00 PM
Especially point 2. Most people aren't interested, and I think that you would soon see class numbers drop. However, I think that it's great that workshops are being taught on this sort of thing. I believe that there's 2 of them at Blaze next weekend! :cheers:

I think this depends on what the class expects. Yes, if you try and change an existing class there will be people who say it's not what they want, and if you over-do the technical stuff people will say it's boring, but if you can get to the point where the class expects to be taught moves that flow, they can feel the music, and they know that almost every dance of the night will be good, then you will be confident that they will prefer your nights to anyone else's.

Ceroc's dancers are conditioned by the class structure to not need to listen (to the class or the music), to expect complicated moves, to dance to tracks that they are familiar with. Taking them out of their comfort zone en masse would be a risky move, not only because as soon as you do that, they will become much more demanding about where they dance!

Sean

Mezzosoprano
2nd-May-2007, 04:34 PM
I agree that not everyone who goes to a class wants to go as deeply into intricacies as some others might but I do think the classes should cater for all and that if you want to learn "more" then workshops surely are the way to go.

I'm in the intermediate class and I want to be a "better"dancer. The workshop at the weekend on Connection was great because that's something I struggle with sometimes (Franck would say "most of the time"!) Workshops give you the chance to really work on it... a chance you don't get in class and that is something that others might not want to do. Some folk just want to learn the moves so that they can impress folk at a wedding.. and that's perfectly okay too!

make sense? Or am I havering?

ps - no exams please.. exam stress would have me struggling to follow a yo-yo!!

pps - plus I don't see any reason why you can't just go along to the class and have a good time! Exams would change that. Enjoy yourself - that's what it's about... isn't it?!

Gav
2nd-May-2007, 04:36 PM
make sense? Or am I havering?

Made perfect sense until you said that! :na: :D :confused:

Mezzosoprano
2nd-May-2007, 04:41 PM
Made perfect sense until you said that! :na: :D :confused:

Collins English Dictionary:

haver (Scots) to talk nonsense.....

hence "havering" is talking nonsense............

helpful?

:flower:

Gav
2nd-May-2007, 04:44 PM
Collins English Dictionary:

haver (Scots) to talk nonsense.....

hence "havering" is talking nonsense............

helpful?

:flower:

That's better, now if only you lot would just speak English in the first bloody place! Sheesh, anyone would think this was a Scottish forum or something :rolleyes:

Raul
2nd-May-2007, 05:59 PM
Although Ceroc has made some brave changes in the class format, I’m not sure that it works well. There seem to be a lot of ‘intermediate’ dancers who seem to get the very basics wrong, e.g. stepping back too far, off balance, pulling the lady round, no concept of the beat. I’m wondering whether its something to do with the focus on moves. I know we teach ‘key points’ … but are these the right key points.



The Ceroc boast is that by the end of the first night you will be dancing. This is similar to fast food, very quick and superficial but with no real substance.

Apart from the workshops which are by the way essential for newbies, the main way that a beginner can really learn to fundamentals of dance is through the skills of the taxi dancer in the followup class. Only there have i heard the words, "tension in the arms", "connection with the partner", "no stirring", "the <woman> follows whatever the <man> leads" etc.

In any other form of dance, you have the warm up which consists of mostly technique and dancing to the beat.

Where are the concepts of maintaining the frame, keeping the partner on her axis, interpreting the musical phrasing in Ceroc? Should women not learn how to follow?

Keeping it simple can mean keeping it dumb. Frank is one the the rare voices advocating leading and following skills, and musicality courses are very few and far between. Shouldn't all teachers at the very least pay lip service to importance of these skills to become a good dancer? Isn't it part of their responsibility?

That could be the reason why too many dancers reach a plateau too soon. If that is the case it is a shame as most of them have the ability to go beyond that and have more enjoyment out of their dancing.


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