How can we politely stop a move that we really don't like?

[Choc Chip]

Hi all

Please help me....I'm just wondering if anybody can suggest ways of politely stopping a partner repeatedly leading you into moves that you really don't like? I don't just mean a move I don't like but for example if a move is causing me pain?

For example - I was recently led repeatedly into some kind of blocked spin (sorry have no idea what the move was but it felt like I was going to spin but then being blocked and pulled back, but then sent to spin again but being blocked and pulled back again etc.)

This was really sore on my wrist and I ended up with it all swollen and non-functioning for another three days.

As a sufferer of fibromyalgia this can happen fairly frequently but I don't want to be rude so I just go along with it and then suffer. Please tell me polite tips:nice: if you know of any.

Thanks

Choccy

[jivecat]

Hi all


As a sufferer of fibromyalgia this can happen fairly frequently but I don't want to be rude so I just go along with it and then suffer. Please tell me polite tips:nice: if you know of any.



Well, I would just quickly explain that I had an injury - possibly before the dance even starts -asking to avoid certain types of move or that the leader be particularly gentle. When I had a back injury I did this with leaders who I didn't know and received a helpful response. If you don't receive a helpful response then you don't have to be polite any more. Sadly, rudeness, or plain-speaking, if it helps to think of it that way, may sometimes be necessary. If someone tries to put me in a move that for any reason I don't like I'm quite happy with Just Saying No.

[Double Trouble]

Hi all

Please help me....I'm just wondering if anybody can suggest ways of politely stopping a partner repeatedly leading you into moves that you really don't like? I don't just mean a move I don't like but for example if a move is causing me pain?Choccy

It's not easy.

On Friday I was dancing with the best lead in the room and he did the backward drop thingy on me, the one where he holds you under both arms and you drop backwards.

The thing is I LOVE that move, but it always leaves me with terrible, unsightly bruises on the underside of my arms.

I didn't want to start complaining about the move he did so i totally let it go (have bruises under arms today).

If i had complained he might not have asked me to dance again and I wanted lots od dances with him (which i got). Luckily, he only did the backward drop once. :nice:

[firefly]

Hi all

Please help me....I'm just wondering if anybody can suggest ways of politely stopping a partner repeatedly leading you into moves that you really don't like? I don't just mean a move I don't like but for example if a move is causing me pain?

...I just go along with it and then suffer. Please tell me polite tips:nice: if you know of any.




Well, I would just quickly explain that I had an injury - possibly before the dance even starts -asking to avoid certain types of move or that the leader be particularly gentle. When I had a back injury I did this with leaders who I didn't know and received a helpful response. If you don't receive a helpful response then you don't have to be polite any more. Sadly, rudeness, or plain-speaking, if it helps to think of it that way, may sometimes be necessary. If someone tries to put me in a move that for any reason I don't like I'm quite happy with Just Saying No.

:yeah:
I know what it's like when you don't want to be rude and say anything to your partner, and end up suffering in silence. But why should you(/we) suffer?

Recently I've become more assertive about not doing moves I don't wish to eg last week I was dancing with a lead I had never danced with before. For various reasons I wasn't particularly comfortable with his lead (he was yanking my arms, gripping on tightly with his fingers, and I didn't really trust his floorcraft). He tried to put me into a dip without checking with me first; I simply held my ground and said "sorry, I'd rather not". He was rather taken aback, but I made it quite clear I didn't want to do any dips; he told me "you're quite right for saying something":cool:

I think perhaps we get too hung-up about potentially offending our partners. They're not telepathic, and maybe don't realise when they might be causing pain. If you do say something and they persist in hurting you, is that someone you want to be dancing with anyway?

On a related note, I've also started to become more confident about saying to my partners (in a nice, non-judgemental way :wink: ) when they've led a move on me that I loathe; duck-under or lap-sit moves:what: ; the straitjacket :sick: ; the tunnel=move from hell . But perhaps that's for another thread!

[Trousers]

Aww don't listen to all that bollox Chip Chop

All you need to do to stop a guy from leading sh|t n possibly painful moves is
1) Fake a cough - make it look good though
2) Reach out to the bloke, grab his shoulders whilst still in the throes of coughing.
3) Pull him toward you so he is looking straight at you - mistakes will only make this worse
4) Make pointed and absolutely deliberate eye contact with the bloke - this is the point where this response can go wrong - you need to tell this man with your eyes and pained expression that he is infact the most heinous man you have ever met and that if he were on fire and you were dying for a slash he wouldn't get a look in
5) Swiftly without flinching Knee him in the BALLS
6) While he is crumpling to the floor remove your hands from his shoulders and just say in a clear voice 'That hurt me too'

Sorted
:waycool:

[Nessiemonster]

As a (sometimes) lead, I'd be quite happy to be told if I was hurting someone. I can't guarantee not to be taken aback, but feel sure I would be apologetic and polite. I wouldn't wish to hurt people, so would rather know so I can either stop doing the move, or preferably learn to lead it properly.

As a (mostly) follow, I find the above Really hard to do, even though I should be taking my own advice!!

So, Choc Chip, if you should ever suffer the misfortune of me hurting you in a move, for god's sake tell me! :wink:

[Wuzzle]

Well, I would just quickly explain that I had an injury - possibly before the dance even starts -asking to avoid certain types of move or that the leader be particularly gentle.

:yeah: No point in dancing to get injured. There is plenty of moves out there. Tell the lead about it he'll adjust to your needs. Not much fun if your in pain. So telling the lead that you can't do certain moves would make it alot more enjoyible dance.

If they don't adjust their routine ummm you can always use trousers plan as a backup plan :rofl:

[Choc Chip]

Hi all

Thanks for tips - I like the trousers one best - I learnt that move in self defence - never thought of employing it in dancing though! Seems like I just need to be a bit more assertive and ask them to stop because it hurts? (Politely though of course). I'll practise it!

Or maybe develop that REALLY nasty cough that I caught in the microbiology lab at work? Hee hee hee!

Thanks everyone

choc chip (complete with functioning wrist!)

[JCB]

Hi ChocChip,
If you find it difficult to bring up the subject, you could wear a light wrist support bandage (the kind that looks like a glove with the fingers and thumb cut off). If it doesn't prompt a question, you could point it out, and explain that you tend to keep injuring the wrist, and ask for a gentle lead, without barrier moves.
The wrist support bandage might put people off asking you at all, though.:tears:
...And it is not particularly attractive.:(

Hi all

Thanks for tips - I like the trousers one best -
Maybe the only ones to ask would be insensitive clods who don't notice it, and proceed to fling you around the dance floor. (Then you can switch to a variation of Trousers' solution!):devil:

(have bruises under arms today).
For the next time: Have you tried arnica gel or cream? (not the homeopathic kind, get the highest concentration you can find - independent chemists sometimes stock it, so do some health food shops) as soon as possible after the injury, and ice packs (the gel kind that don't get hard when frozen are best, but a small bag of frozen peas wrapped in a flannel will do in a pinch- I kept some labelled "do not eat!" for the kids' football injuries. You have to be careful not to freeze the skin. They say ten minutes at a time max., then wait a few minutes. Even if it isn't a painful injury, this will help prevent those oh-so-attractive blue/purple patches.

It's the one where he holds you under both arms and you drop backwards.
The thing is I LOVE that move, but it always leaves me with terrible, unsightly bruises on the underside of my arms. .
If it is the move I think - "back drop"? , or "drop kick"? - Kav Kavanagh's DVD shows a version where instead of hands under upper arms, he is holding the girl's hands, and her arms rest on his arms. I found I could support my own weight better this way. Could any more knowledgeable forumites help out here?

[jivecat]

Aww don't listen to all that bollox Chip Chop

All you need to do to stop a guy from leading sh|t n possibly painful moves is
*Snip* Complex instructions *snip*


I didn't quite follow that, may I practise on you next time I get a dance?:innocent:

[Lynn]

I can think of a couple of occasions where I really strongly didn't want to follow a move.

One was where a lead was doing what he clearly thought were sexy, both facing the same way squat type wiggles. Sorry but that really doesn't work for me, it looks and feels very undignified (I've rarely seen anyone look good doing these). So I didn't do the 'squat' part - a clear indication that I would follow the move but my own way. He pushed down on my shoulders to try to force me do the move the way he wanted (possibly more than once). I should simply have said 'I'd rather not' but instead I would just avoid dancing with him again.

The other occasion was more recently when a lead was hurting my shoulders with fast, sharp overhead turns. After one shoulder being wrenched I resisted a similar move with the other arm - he complained that I wasn't following and I simply said 'I'd rather not do that type of move' and he didn't lead any more of those moves. I would dance again with that leader.

This shows that I don't tend to say anything unless the lead actually asks me why I'm reluctant to follow a move, but that when I did, it improved the dance. So my vote would go for a simple 'I'd rather not' with an explanation focused on you or the move (not them as leader) such as 'that move hurts my shoulder etc'.

[Gadget]

Please help me....I'm just wondering if anybody can suggest ways of politely stopping a partner repeatedly leading you into moves that you really don't like? I don't just mean a move I don't like but for example if a move is causing me pain?
Most dancing relies on the follower having a "frame", that the lead can use to move them. Collapse the frame (go all wobbly and bendy) and there is nothing for them to lead.
Down side is that they may think you are a poor dancer. But if they are observant in the slightest then they should realise that it's only certain moves they can't lead: if they try to explain the move, you can then explain why.


For example - I was recently led repeatedly into some kind of blocked spin (sorry have no idea what the move was but it felt like I was going to spin but then being blocked and pulled back, but then sent to spin again but being blocked and pulled back again etc.) in this case, a simple "Ouch!" the first time would/should work ;)

There are lots of threads on this, try the following:
strategy for handling wild women (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/11998-strategy-handling-wild-women.html)
Ouch - That's my hand (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/beginners-corner/9743-ouch-thats-my-hand.html)
That ole devill called pain again (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/5752-ole-devil-called-pain-again.html)
Avoiding Pain (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/4793-avoiding-pain.html)



On Friday I was dancing with the best lead in the room and he did the backward drop thingy on me, the one where he holds you under both arms and you drop backwards.

The thing is I LOVE that move, but it always leaves me with terrible, unsightly bruises on the underside of my arms.
Have a look at this thread: Chinese burns (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/8263-chinese-burns.html)... I think that it's the same move.

[Beowulf]

My tuppence worth (1.7p + vat at least) would be to clearly state before the dance that you do not want particular moves/types of moves performed.

Any conscientious lead will take this into account. If he doesn't then don't dance with him again.

I certainly wouldn't lead any move that my partner had requested I not do (does that make sense? the double negative confused me ;) )

[Shodan]

I'm a leader (a guy) and sometimes find ladies leading moves, but badly. I find that if something is going to go wrong or cause pain, its best to just abort the move even if it makes the dance go wrong.
In these rare instances I normally just let go or intercept the lady with one hand or the other and slow her down to a stop and explain why I did that.

The move you described in your post sounds familiar to me and if its the move I'm thinking of, the guy shouldn't be leading it from your hands or wrist - the blocks should be caught and performed on your lower arm. i.e. between elbow and your wrist. If you find someone is leading you painfully I find its often best to just stop and explain in a nice way.
I as a leader would appreciate this input as I don't know what causes the lady pain whilst dancing. To this end I have tried to better myself by dancing as a lady/follower more to better understand my leading. I recently did a Windmill as a follower just to fully understand why its evil and shouldn't be done very often.

[killingtime]

Please help me....I'm just wondering if anybody can suggest ways of politely stopping a partner repeatedly leading you into moves that you really don't like? I don't just mean a move I don't like but for example if a move is causing me pain?

You know if someone said "please don't do a yo-yo on me as I think they are pants" I might be a little taken a-back that they are dictating such preferences in following (even if, as a lead, I drop moves because I find them pants)*. If someone wanted me to stop a move because it was hurting them then I might be embarrassed to find out I was doing a move that was hurting someone but I would much rather prefer to be know and be embarrassed than for my partner to put up with it and then be injured for the rest of the night.

Sometimes people tell me before a dance they have a particular injury. Someone at WCS had injured her wrist so I told her just to not offer her other hand for things like the sugar push; after all it isn't required and insures that no one is tempted to put pressure on it.

*Also I don't think this applies to UCP moves, I think these should be move invitation and/or have an "escape" method. It's why I object to teaching a comb with the spare hand behind the follow (hence so she can't just back out).

[Choc Chip]

HI again all

Thanks for taking the time to answer this - lots of helpful tips which could all work at some point dependant on the type of lead. i'll definitely try some of them out!

Anne

ps. Tahnks also for other threads to look at!

[Astro]

The move you described in your post sounds familiar to me and if its the move I'm thinking of, the guy shouldn't be leading it from your hands or wrist - the blocks should be caught and performed on your lower arm. i.e. between elbow and your wrist. If you find someone is leading you painfully I find its often best to just stop and explain in a nice way.
I as a leader would appreciate this input as I don't know what causes the lady pain whilst dancing. To this end I have tried to better myself by dancing as a lady/follower more to better understand my leading. I recently did a Windmill as a follower just to fully understand why its evil and shouldn't be done very often.

There is a step move where many leads put their hand on the follower's hip and push it back and forth to get the hips moving. Some of the leads really give it some elbow grease! Anyone know the name of the move? It is a travelling move, about 3 steps. I hate it as it can twang the spine.

Nigel teaches it differently. The lead put's his hand on the follower's back and the other hand leads her hand. This is a much, much better technique. Why do Ceroc teach it the painful way?

[killingtime]

There is a step move where many leads put their hand on the follower's hip and push it back and forth to get the hips moving. Some of the leads really give it some elbow grease! Anyone know the name of the move? It is a travelling move, about 3 steps. I hate it as it can twang the spine.

Nigel teaches it differently. The lead put's his hand on the follower's back and the other hand leads her hand. This is a much, much better technique. Why do Ceroc teach it the painful way?

I know the move, starts with a first move.The man's left hand, the one in front, should still do a lot of the work; that's to say it shouldn't be lead just from the hip. Unless he is expecting you to cross-step the planet then he probably shouldn't be giving you the sort of forceful lead he is giving.

In Nigel's version the hand on the back is giving a clear lead forward and possibly providing the slight cross step too (I never learnt it with Nigel but I do a move that might be the same where I use the back, the current strongest connection, as part of the cross-step lead). The arm in front also can provide this lead provided the lady's frame is giving lateral tension.

I guess the framework of the second is more complex and therefore more difficult to teach to a class that you don't teach a frame to.

[Shodan]

There is a step move where many leads put their hand on the follower's hip and push it back and forth to get the hips moving. Some of the leads really give it some elbow grease! Anyone know the name of the move? It is a travelling move, about 3 steps. I hate it as it can twang the spine.

Nigel teaches it differently. The lead put's his hand on the follower's back and the other hand leads her hand. This is a much, much better technique. Why do Ceroc teach it the painful way?
I recognise the move you talk of too. I think I normally lead it using the way Nigel does it (from your description). Mainly because it feels more "ballroomy" which is where I started my "dance career" and thus feel more comfortable leading like that with a positive frame. :nice:

[MartinHarper]

"Ouch" works. Longer term, you should probably mention that you have fibromyalgia, and thus bruise easily. This will allow the leader to adapt appropriately. If the problem persists, you may need to consider if non-contact dancing would be the healthier option. Ask your doctor, I guess.
(I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV)

[Astro]

I know the move, starts with a first move.The man's left hand, the one in front, should still do a lot of the work; that's to say it shouldn't be lead just from the hip. Unless he is expecting you to cross-step the planet then he probably shouldn't be giving you the sort of forceful lead he is giving. Yes, it is a case of them being too rough, and not just beginner's either. They seem to think they have carte blanche to manhandle me, especially if I'm a bit slow on the uptake due to an unclear lead.


In Nigel's version the hand on the back is giving a clear lead forward and possibly providing the slight cross step too (I never learnt it with Nigel but I do a move that might be the same where I use the back, the current strongest connection, as part of the cross-step lead). The arm in front also can provide this lead provided the lady's frame is giving lateral tension. Yes Nigel taught it as a proper ballroom hold and follow, with the lead using both arms to lead. Also he had to admonish from the stage, some leads who were elbow greasing on the woman's back.(hip or back, they still can hurt, but back is more sabotageable I reckon.


I guess the framework of the second is more complex and therefore more difficult to teach to a class that you don't teach a frame to.
Yeah, but there are other ceroc moves taught using an open frame.

I recognise the move you talk of too. I think I normally lead it using the way Nigel does it (from your description). Mainly because it feels more "ballroomy" which is where I started my "dance career" and thus feel more comfortable leading like that with a positive frame. :nice:I much prefer it too. Especially when a man is struggling to find my hip bone.:o I love the move,though, when it is executed well.:nice:

[purplehyacinth]

Re the sore wrist - I do not think there is anything wrong with saying to a lead something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I'm recovering from a sore wrist: I thought it would be ok, but that move just pushed it a bit too far, and it's hurting/it isn't liking that move/{or some other variation on this theme}"

I think that a leader would be entirely sympathetic in such a situation.

Or, if you know in advance of the dance that certain moves are going to aggravate your wrist, simply say, "My wrist is a bit fragile tonight, could you be gentle/avoid such-and-such a move, because I've found that it jars it."

Again, I would expect a leader to be sympathetic to that.

[Freudian Hips]

I once said "Ow, that hurts" to a lead who is well known for being very bouncy and has a particular hip movement that some of the younger followers were finding very painful. Within the same track he did it again. I said "Ow, I said that hurts". Well, he hasn't asked me to dance for the last 6 months which is a pity because with a little adjustment he'd be great fun. :tears: :grin:

[Choc Chip]

Thanks everybody again - I think I just need to be bolder. My boss is trying to make me bolder too - all good practise!

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply!

Amc

[JiveLad]

(Slightly off-thread)....

One discussion at Chill last weekend was about 'Cerocus Interruptus' - - under what circumstances you might stop mid-dance and withdraw.

The consensus we had was "hey - it's only 3 minutes of your life.......so just enjoy it" - and never withdraw.

The following day Cerocus Interruptus happened for my first time when (during workshop, not freestyle) a woman started using her mobile during a move. Eeeek! Then she did it a second time - so we could not do the move again: I made my excuses and withdrew to get some water.

[TheTramp]

One discussion at Chill last weekend was about 'Cerocus Interruptus' - - under what circumstances you might stop mid-dance and withdraw.

The consensus we had was "hey - it's only 3 minutes of your life.......so just enjoy it" - and never withdraw.

I completely and totally disagree.

Any woman (or indeed man) who feels perved on, is being hurt by the way the other person is dancing, or who feels that inappropriate moves (dips & aerials especially) are being done, especially after they've asked for them not to be done, is totally within her rights to stop dancing and leave the dance floor.

And, to be honest, I wish more women would, because it would be a damn clear signal to the guys who are doing these things that they are unacceptable.

The one that really gets me is when women moan about a guy who is doing any of the above, and then, when he asks them to dance, say "Yes". :confused:

[Astro]

I completely and totally disagree.

Any woman (or indeed man) who feels perved on, is being hurt by the way the other person is dancing, or who feels that inappropriate moves (dips & aerials especially) are being done, especially after they've asked for them not to be done, is totally within her rights to stop dancing and leave the dance floor.

And, to be honest, I wish more women would, because it would be a damn clear signal to the guys who are doing these things that they are unacceptable. I think a lot of these guys are either "could not care less" or truly unaware, insensitive clods. Because guys are in the minority, girls tend to put up and shut up. It is only the advanced women dancers who don't have to scrape the barrel.

Obviously these guys prey on newbie's and the ceroc line that folks should never refuse a dance only aids these guys. I think the venue manager should offer these women protection via boycotting these guys. I'm sure there are many women lost cash wise, so it will be economical too.


The one that really gets me is when women moan about a guy who is doing any of the above, and then, when he asks them to dance, say "Yes". :confused:
I think it is the culture, they are afraid of seeming to be hoity toity/hotshots. They like to have a good moan about it though.

[JiveLad]

I think a lot of these guys are either "could not care less" or truly unaware, insensitive clods. Because guys are in the minority, girls tend to put up and shut up. It is only the advanced women dancers who don't have to scrape the barrel.

Obviously these guys prey on newbie's and the ceroc line that folks should never refuse a dance only aids these guys. I think the venue manager should offer these women protection via boycotting these guys. I'm sure there are many women lost cash wise, so it will be economical too.
I think it is the culture, they are afraid of seeming to be hoity toity/hotshots. They like to have a good moan about it though.

I think you're right. Having spoken to some of my women friends about this (and Mrs. Jive Lad as well of course) - I was like Tramp - and encouraged them to notify the venue manager about it: they would not go that far - or even complain to the person in question. I think they try 'avoidance' tactics which seem to work most times.

[killingtime]

The following day Cerocus Interruptus happened for my first time when (during workshop, not freestyle) a woman started using her mobile during a move.

So she was carrying her mobile phone on her? You know; I get it if someone was on call or maybe kept if for the babysitter to call but otherwise I'd find this really rude.

[Shodan]

Any woman (or indeed man) who feels perved on, is being hurt by the way the other person is dancing, or who feels that inappropriate moves (dips & aerials especially) are being done, especially after they've asked for them not to be done, is totally within her rights to stop dancing and leave the dance floor.

I'm a guy and I also get perved on by some, mainly older, women. On the rare occasion I've actually stopped dancing with some ladies as I can't stand it anymore.


And, to be honest, I wish more women would, because it would be a damn clear signal to the guys who are doing these things that they are unacceptable.

The one that really gets me is when women moan about a guy who is doing any of the above, and then, when he asks them to dance, say "Yes". :confused:
Agreed. I feel sorry more for the ladies as they seem to get more aggro than the guys. I know a friend of mine is always really glad when I ask her to dance as she keeps saying I'm nice to dance with and I don't perv on her and do "close" and inappropriate moves which is what a lot of other guys do.
The other problem is that, especially with beginners, they are constantly being told "you can't refuse a dance unless you have a very good reason", so they don't feel confident enough to refuse the pervs a dance. Its a shame really.