A Beginners Guide to Understanding Music

[Beowulf]

inspired by the Phrasing the Music thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/12215-phrasing-music.html) I was wondering if some more enlightened kind souls would care to shed some light on musical phrases / general music theory?

I understand some moves like the basic accordion take 8 beats to complete properly. But when I'm dancing I don't / can't hear the music in quanta of 8 beats. For example , one of my favourite tracks is "I like the way you move" by the Bodyrockers. now just after the lead vocalist yells "I like the way you move" it goes into that "da-da-dada-da .. da-da-dada-da" bit. I can't hear where the 8th beat comes in.. or is it just arbitrary?

From what I've read on the forum I've come to the conclusion (probably incorrectly) that one the 1 there should be something in the music that signals the phrase change. To me when I listen to music I can hear the basic beat that resolves in my head to a plain "one-two one-two one-two" (or "one-two-three if I'm listening to The Blue Danube :D )

It doesn't matter how much I listen to music (and I do.. A LOT!) I cannot train my ears to distinguish anything but the most obvious music changes. this means that sometimes I'll be half way though a move and the music will change tempo or go into a break or something (I vaguely understand the concept of breaks) and I'll have to sort of stand there, like a prize turnip halfway though my signature-yoyo :rolleyes: right hand up by left shoulder, until the music kicks off again. Now is this happening because I'm not listening/hearing the phrases in the music? if the music say had three phrases of 8 beats before a break, and I say dance 2 6 beat moves and then an 8 beat move, I'm going to be out of sync by 4 beats aren't I? so when I'm 4 beats into my 4th move I'm only going to infuriate my partner by my inability to read the music.

Also , on a side issue but still on topic (hey I started the thread, I'll decide what's on topic or not ;) ) Sometimes even finding the beat is hard in music. On Tuesday I commented to a fellow dancer that one of the tracks was very slow, but everybody was dancing faster than I expected. The problem was the underlying rhythm was quite fast but the vocals will slower and more sultry. I take it's best to dance to the underlying rhythm rather than any other overlying melodies?

My perpetual noobishness pains me so. But at least I'm trying to understand. :D

[Caro]

I was wondering if some more enlightened kind souls would care to shed some light on musical phrases / general music theory?


I'll let some more enlightened souls than me explains in details, but the most important bit you need to know is that most of the music we dance to in MJ is structured in phrases (some call them major phrases) of either 32 (4 x 8) or 48 (6 x 8) beats.

It's a usually good idea to try and phrase the music by starting a new move on the big '1' of those major phrases.


But when I'm dancing I don't / can't hear the music in quanta of 8 beats.
...
I can't hear where the 8th beat comes in.. or is it just arbitrary?
...
From what I've read on the forum I've come to the conclusion (probably incorrectly) that one the 1 there should be something in the music that signals the phrase change. To me when I listen to music I can hear the basic beat that resolves in my head to a plain "one-two one-two one-two"


It doesn't matter how much I listen to music (and I do.. A LOT!) I cannot train my ears to distinguish anything but the most obvious music changes.

Don't worry. I was exactly, exactly like you. Until I went to one of Amir's musicality class (can't recommend it too much) where I learnt to count the music in 8 beats. It takes somebody showing to you when the '1' are and then a lot of practice (used to practice everytime I was listening to (pop - cause it's easy) music on the radio in my car going to work for a good few months).
There are clues in the music that will tell you when the 1 are. Of course, sometimes you'll get it wrong (sometimes you might confuse a 5 for a 1, for example), but essentially this is due to practice and more often that not you'll find out after a while in the tune that you're offset.

Happy to sit down with you at the next class and count the music with you. Can point out some clues that will show you the end of phrases or when a break is coming. Usually it is fairly easy to hear the big '1' of the beginning of a major phrase. Breaks tend to always happen on the same beat(s) of the major phrase (beat 25 for example, or the 1st beat of the 3rd set of 8). I'm clearly not an expert, but I can tell you what I know. :flower:


Also , on a side issue but still on topic (hey I started the thread, I'll decide what's on topic or not ;) ) Sometimes even finding the beat is hard in music. On Tuesday I commented to a fellow dancer that one of the tracks was very slow, but everybody was dancing faster than I expected. The problem was the underlying rhythm was quite fast but the vocals will slower and more sultry. I take it's best to dance to the underlying rhythm rather than any other overlying melodies?


It was Temptation, wasn't it? :wink:
The easiest thing to do is usually to dance to the beat and that's what most people will do. But if you do hear another instrument or the vocals that go slower or to a different beat, of course you can dance to that. Actually, it feels amazing :D . Suddendly your dancing navigate in different layers of the music and it's up to you to chose which one you want to dance to. You can keep changing between 2 or more layers all along the tune... in fact, it's like becoming another instrument yourself. Takes a whole new dimension to your dancing... and that's why it's so addictive.

Another good exercise to practice understanding music / musicality is to pick a track and listen only to one instrument and try and move (even if sitting down and just moving your hand) only when that instrument is playing. Then listen to the same track and pick a different instrument... and so on.


My perpetual noobishness pains me so. But at least I'm trying to understand. :D

:clap:

[timbp]

But if you do hear another instrument or the vocals that go slower or to a different beat, of course you can dance to that. Actually, it feels amazing :D . Suddendly your dancing navigate in different layers of the music and it's up to you to chose which one you want to dance to.
Yeah, but...!
It's a partner dance! I have had fantastic dances where I have heard something beyond the beat, and the girl has followed me there. I have also have fantastic dances where my follower has heard something beyond the beat and I have allowed her to lead me there.
On the other hand, I have had many disastrous dances simply because my partner and I heard the music differently.

It is not "up to you" to choose what you dance to; it is up to you and your partner to decide what elements to dance to.

[Caro]

Breaks tend to always happen on the same beat(s) of the major phrase (beat 25 for example, or the 1st beat of the 3rd set of 8).


and by 3rd, I meant 4th of course ;)


Yeah, but...!
On the other hand, I have had many disastrous dances simply because my partner and I heard the music differently.

It is not "up to you" to choose what you dance to; it is up to you and your partner to decide what elements to dance to.

of course and it does happen a lot. But I'd argue that if you have a very good connection, you should be able to take your partner anywhere in the music... especially as a lead.

[Ghost]

It is not "up to you" to choose what you dance to; it is up to you and your partner to decide what elements to dance to.
You can however "cheat" and ask :devil: I forget the exact song, but it had a very fast drumbeat and it was after a lot of other fast songs and I'm getting old so about 3/4s of the way through I went into a comb and asked
"Do you mind if we blues for the rest of this?" which we did (to the music rather than the beat). The fastest thing I think I've bluesed to was Rockin Robin (!72 BMP apparently).

[Husky_Cat]

Dont know if this is relevant to the topic but hey here go.

As i am profoundly deaf, i used to rely on vibration on the floors to tell me the beats ... sneaky way.. but since i got my hearing aid , I am finding it hard to hear where the beats are cos i am SO used to feeling it through the vibrations so i am like trying to hear but the vibration just takes over.

But when i am dancing, i can hear the music clearly just not the beats .. argh... i can see this will take some training to hear the beats .. :rolleyes:
Sometimes i can tell if music is fast or slow and i sometimes can tell that the lead is dancing fast to a slow music, but i just let lead have the control as i am just a follower..

I remember when i first started dancing, Trampy kindly chose quite few songs with big bass in them i think .. but at that time i had no hearing aid so couldnt feel it when was dancing but could when sit down. Is this at all relevant??:confused:

Shona

[pmjd]

It doesn't matter how much I listen to music (and I do.. A LOT!) I cannot train my ears to distinguish anything but the most obvious music changes. this means that sometimes I'll be half way though a move and the music will change tempo or go into a break or something.....I'm only going to infuriate my partner by my inability to read the music.
~
My perpetual noobishness pains me so. But at least I'm trying to understand. :D

Your not alone, I still have a lot of problems just hearing and following the base beat:( all the fancier bits and tempo changes I can hear but it's a nightmare trying to find the base beat and keep it. I end up speeding up alot, which is a bit of a problem when your meant to be the foundation in keeping the beat to lead your partner and let you both have more fun with the music. Another thing I cannot hear is "cha cha" bits in music, just pass me by totally.

Sometimes I can get breaks but it's usually more from memory of the song than being able to predict them in the music, though I have been lucky a couple of times:waycool: and somehow felt a break was due, if that makes sense:confused:


But I'd argue that if you have a very good connection, you should be able to take your partner anywhere in the music... especially as a lead.
Another thing I have to work on:whistle:

I have been to a couple of musicality classes too but I'm never sure when the "1" starts either. I think the main problems is that I'm not very musical in the first place, so it will take a while for all the musicality stuff to sink in.

Just have to keep trying:nice:

[Blind_Dynamo]

Dont know if this is relevant to the topic but hey here go.

As i am profoundly deaf, i used to rely on vibration on the floors to tell me the beats ... sneaky way.. but since i got my hearing aid , I am finding it hard to hear where the beats are cos i am SO used to feeling it through the vibrations so i am like trying to hear but the vibration just takes over.

But when i am dancing, i can hear the music clearly just not the beats .. argh... i can see this will take some training to hear the beats .. :rolleyes:
Sometimes i can tell if music is fast or slow and i sometimes can tell that the lead is dancing fast to a slow music, but i just let lead have the control as i am just a follower..

I remember when i first started dancing, Trampy kindly chose quite few songs with big bass in them i think .. but at that time i had no hearing aid so couldnt feel it when was dancing but could when sit down. Is this at all relevant??:confused:

Shona
I don't know about relevant but it's good that other people who have a disablity dancing and enjoying it.

I use floor vibrations in a different to tell me how close the next couple are dancing to me, on some floors it doesn't work.

But I find it humbling that alot of the really talented dancers some of whom are on this forum will dance with someone at my lowly level even competition dancers one or two have even put right on a few mistakes I've made.

[Miguel]

I was wondering if some more enlightened kind souls would care to shed some light on musical phrases / general music theory?
Musicality & Style for Modern Jive - DVD
Ceroc and Modern Jive Dance Videos - Tapes and DVDs (http://www.modernjive.com/videos-nicky.html)

[Husky_Cat]

I don't know about relevant but it's good that other people who have a disablity dancing and enjoying it.

I use floor vibrations in a different to tell me how close the next couple are dancing to me, on some floors it doesn't work.

But I find it humbling that alot of the really talented dancers some of whom are on this forum will dance with someone at my lowly level even competition dancers one or two have even put right on a few mistakes I've made.


this might sounds silly but i am always aware if a couple is nearby me , my body seem to pick up on it somehow and i move away if they getting too close, Floor vibrations can be useful in this way but not if the music is blaring.
I think it varies in each person's case on whether they use floor vibrations in a way to count beats or to pick up on if a couple is dancing close by.
I think it would be interesting to see if dancers can use the floor vibrations to pick up a beat and dance to it rather than listen to the music.

Shona

[Caro]

Btw here's a link to an old thread of mine: Musicality, how do you learn (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/dj-booth/8071-musicality-how-do-you-learn.html)?
a few good pieces of advice on here.

[Beowulf]

Btw here's a link to an old thread of mine: Musicality, how do you learn (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/dj-booth/8071-musicality-how-do-you-learn.html)?
a few good pieces of advice on here.

Thanks Caro.

I'm "fairly" ok with the beat.. it's finding this elusive 1 that people talk about. "Listen for the 1"

I hear a thump - thump - thump. But never a 1 :confused: :rolleyes:

Poor Caro , often she'd despair while i was dancing my speed to the music in my head.. which unfortunately bore no resemblance to the music that everyone else in the room was dancing to. However, Caro was very good at forcing a speed change, like turning one my suggested turns over 4 or more beats :)

Miguel.. I'll have to check that DVD out. Thanks :respect:

[straycat]

I hear a thump - thump - thump. But never a 1 :confused: :rolleyes:


A non-musician's view. Musicians feel free to correct me (or tear what I'm saying apart if need be)
It probably adds to the confusion that different musical styles can often indicate the 1 in different ways. I'm listening to a blues track at the moment (the rather wonderful 'When the Lights Go Out by' the Black Keys) where the percussion does nothing to show the bar structure - the guitar gives the clearest indication of this (take away the melody, and you have the same emphasised note played on every first beat (assuming a 'dancers' eight-beat-bar), and a different one played for each fifth beat.

The first beat is generally given more emphasis, and this is done in a variety of ways, eg:
An emphasised note being consistently played as that first note of the bar.
Changes to the melody / rhythm kicking in on the one.
Repeated 'build-up' to that 'one'
Indicated by the singer (this can be by starting phrases on the 1, or by ending phrases on the 1, or by emphasising the word sung on the 1...

There's no cut & dried way of identifying it, to be honest - the best thing one can do is to just listen to a bunch of tracks where it's made reasonably obvious, in the company of someone who's able to point out all the things you can use to cue you in. It's worth doing for a huge number of reasons, not least being the fact that when you start listening to music in this way, it can vastly increase your enjoyment of it. IMOFO.

[Gadget]

What I found helped me when I was starting was counting in the tracks with the teacher; when you can predict the "5..6..7..8..", then you know that the next count is "1" :D

[Mezzosoprano]

I just dance... sometimes the 1 is on the 5.... what kind of maths is that... and I have a qualification in music, play the violin and sing.... I still just dance.. it's the man's job to count... I'm just following where I'm told to go!!!:wink:

[FirstMove]

... sometimes the 1 is on the 5.... what kind of maths is that...

That's modular arithmetic.

One might also like to note that Z4 is a sub-group of Z8 :na:

[frodo]

I'll let some more enlightened souls than me explains in details, but the most important bit you need to know is that most of the music we dance to in MJ is structured in phrases (some call them major phrases) of either 32 (4 x 8) ...
...
... Usually it is fairly easy to hear the big '1' of the beginning of a major phrase.
:yeah:.
That small bit of info was worth far more than the cost of Amir's workshop for me.

I think Amir talked about it primarily so breaks could be predicted, but absolutely the key and important thing was that I could now know when I was counting correctly the 1 (and the 5 if I wanted to distinguish them).

[Mezzosoprano]

That's modular arithmetic.

One might also like to note that Z4 is a sub-group of Z8 :na:

That's exactly why my math's teach in school told me not to bother after "o" grades.... I did statistics instead... where one could definately "be" 5 - 'cos it's all lies, darned lies and statistics! Note the little alteration to the quote!:wink: