Phrasing the music

[MartinHarper]

So I was thinking about "phrasing the music", and the sage advice of "start your moves on the 1". So, if you have a new verse make sure that you start a new move on the first beat of that verse.

Then I was thinking, what is the first element of an MJ move? Is it the step back? Or is it the thing that immediately follows the step back? Is the step back is the thing that completes and rounds off the previous move, with whatever comes next being the start of the next move? Or is it the start of the next move, with a return being the thing that rounds off the previous move?

Then I decided I didn't know and I needed advice from you folks.

[Jamie]

Well, I'd say it's the step back. :D

[spindr]

Perhaps you need to turn the question on its head:


The music starts on beat one -- how can I fit the start of the move to fit it?

Actually the music starts when it breaks, which is normally either beat one, *or* beat two, so the question then becomes:


The music starts when it breaks -- how can I fit the start of the move to fit it?

SpinDr

[Ghost]

Well, I'd say it's the step back. :D



In MJ, the last step of a pattern is the first step of the next

Me too :wink:

[DavidY]

I think the step back is like a musical Upbeat (see wikipedia definition (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upbeat)). That is, there's still music happening, but it's only in anticipation of the stronger music that happens at the start of the next bar (or "measure" for those in the US :wink: ).

So in freestyle, I'd say you'd ideally time your moves so you step back on the upbeat and the main move starts on the beat at the start of the next bar.

[ducasi]

As not all MJ moves are multiples of 4 beats long, how can you start a new move always on 1?

In MJ, some moves tend to flow together so there is no reason to pick an arbitrary point in the flow of moves and say it needs to happen on the 1.

That said, if you can fit your flow of moves so it fits with the music, and allows you to emphasis all the nice aspects of the music you want to emphasis, then that's good too.

So, yes the step back is both the beginning and end of each traditional move, but as far as hitting the 1 goes, the (e.g.) turn out part of the first move is just as valid.

(All IMHO. :))

[Gadget]

Then I was thinking, what is the first element of an MJ move?
:D
The "step back" is simply a preperation for the next element, which if you're just on the dance floor is the first element of your move.

The "Return" can be at the other end, but it also ends with a "step back" which is preperation for the next move. Each move's first element is what you do after that step back - your position, your partner's position and how you get into it.

{* all IMHO of course ;)}

[MartinHarper]

As not all MJ moves are multiples of 4 beats long, how can you start a new move always on 1?

I was thinking of the first beat in what I've heard called a "major phrase" - that is, a set of (typically) 32 beats.

[MartinHarper]

I remember the discussion of "Amir's First Move" in 2005, when folks said how great it was that it "fit the music". ChrisA started us off:


A Ceroc first move, a return, and the last step back (ie the beginning of the next move) adds up to eight counts in all - and stepping back on 8 does not feel anywhere near as natural as stepping back on the 1 of the next 8.

Sadly, nobody explained in that thread why it should feel more natural, and I didn't think to ask at the time. In beg/int WCS, it's really clear that the anchor step is the end of a move, and the step in is the start of a move. In MJ, it's less clear to me.

Maybe I should leave phrasing to other dances and keep it out of my MJ altogether. No sense stressing to start a move in the right place if I don't know where the move starts.

[Jamie]

Maybe I should leave phrasing to other dances and keep it out of my MJ altogether. No sense stressing to start a move in the right place if I don't know where the move starts.

I would, after all MJ isn't meant to be technically correct... it's simply an easy dance to learn so we can all have fun and socialise with eachother..

I'd save any phrasing for more technical dances such as WCS etc...

[Amir]

So I was thinking about "phrasing the music", and the sage advice of "start your moves on the 1".

I would modify that advice for modern jive. What I aim for is to achieve the stretch away on the 1. This is what looks and feels phrased to me. This is my 'default' way of dancing, although I'll vary it depending on many factors.



Then I was thinking, what is the first element of an MJ move? Is it the step back?

The first (and last) element of each move in MJ in my opinion is the stretch away. Different people arrange their footwork in different ways, so I can't tell you exactly which foot you should step with on '1' without seeing what footwork you use.

In the footwork I teach, the stretch happens during the rock step, as in the step back (on the left for the man and the right for the lady.) For example, I would aim for the rock step of the first move (when you are side by side) to happen on one, and then the rock step after stepping her under and out to happen on the next 'one'.

In australian step ceroc the stretch actually only reaches is full potential as they step their feet together. (On the left for the man and the right for the lady.) Which is why Robert I think was saying you should step back on 8 (so that the 'stretch' will occur on the one.)

My point is the footwork doesn't matter, it is there to allow a stretch that should occur on "one" if you want to dance phrased.

This stuff isn't important to everyone. I love dancing because of the music and the rhythms. If I don't like the music I won't enjoy dancing. Other people just enjoy moving, and the music is there to create atmosphere. For me the music is the reason and goal of the dance. (Okay I admit. When I started the goal was probably to get laid, but I've matured since then.) I'm not saying this way is better, it just happens to be the only way I personally enjoy it.

Some dances are inherently unphrased. In hustle, because the footwork takes 3 counts, but they still dance to 4/4 music, sometimes you stretch on the one, sometimes on the two, sometimes on the three etc. But although I think the style is beautiful, I find it hard to enjoy watching since they look so disconnected from the music.

A lot of modern jivers also are very disconnected from the music since so many moves are taught unphrased. Which is why I modify the first move for example to take 8 counts. I didn't invent this stuff by the way, lots of people danced modern jive like this before I ever started, and those were the people who's dancing I liked and emulated. It is not 'Amir's first move' but I'm happy to accept royalties anytime someone uses it.

WCS is inherently unphrased unless you stick rigidly to 8 count patterns. This I think is one of the reasons the dance has developed so many stretches, syncopations and accelerations, in the attempt to get an inherently unphrased dance to fit back into the music.

I don't think this would be possible in modern jive because we don't use the triple steps which allow many of these variations. You could incorporate triple steps back into modern jive, but then you would basically be doing swing, so then why not learn the existing techniques instead of inventing a new one. Easier, in my opinion, to modify the length of modern jive moves to match the music. Which is what many of the best dancers do anyway, and I don't take any credit for this innovation either. Although I do take credit cards, cash and cheque.

So Why Bother?

You will be more pleasant to follow and to watch. Even people who don’t know about phrasing will be aware that you dance better, that it somehow feels better, in the same way people who don’t know about music theory will enjoy better musicians.

I also think phrasing changes the dance from feeling like plodding to flying. Since I rarely plod and can not yet fly, I can’t be sure, but that is my conjecture.

[Robert Winter]

Which is why Robert I think was saying you should step back on 8 (so that the 'stretch' will occur on the one.):yeah: Just so. :nice:

[CJ]

Some good stuff from Amir...
:yeah:

My answer would depend on my partner and the tune.

Even in a 12 bar, there are so many "ones" that U could aim for: some would be a stretch, some would be a simple step back, some would be a step back with emphases, some would be a dip/emphasis move, some would even be half way through (e.g. the joint step back whilst side by side in the first move).

Songs with other structures would push me to do different things with the "one". Some finish something, some begin something, some pause for effect.

I hope this has helped...:sick:

[Amir]

Even in a 12 bar, there are so many "ones" that U could aim for: some would be a stretch, some would be a simple step back, some would be a step back with emphases, some would be a dip/emphasis move, some would even be half way through (e.g. the joint step back whilst side by side in the first move).


Yes agree with that - so in a first move the stretch away will be on the first 1, the rock back side by side on the 2nd 1, and the stretch away after 'under and out' on the 3rd 1.

What I mean by 'stretch' is not a pull away necessarily. I'm just referring to that moment when you are furthest away from your partner before starting to step together again. There is a visual stretch, but for me at least, a minimal physical one.

So I don't mean you should stretch on every 1 (ie every four counts) - that would be silly. Just that when you are stretching, you should aim for this to be on a '1'. Your drops, freezes, poses etc will normally be on 1 too, at least to start with. (I say 'should' in the context of people who want to learn to phrase. If you don't care about it you 'should' do what ever you want!)

If you rock step away from your partner and take one step per count, as long as you start on time you won't have to think about it very much. As it starts to feel more natural you can start to vary your footwork and the timing of moves, and still find it easy to get back into the phrasing. When I see people who come in and out of the music I think it is because they have not got a consistent foundation in footwork. Or at least I believe this is what will 'fix' this challenge.

Maybe people worry this fixed footwork will take away the freedom of their dancing. Its just a stage you go through to develop an instinct you may not already have, after which you forget about it and let it flow, playing with your footwork however you like.

As discussed elsewhere, some teachers don't want to mention footwork as they believe this will lower class numbers. I respect that point of view and know what it feels like to teach something that your class wants as opposed to what you think they need! But if any of you are interested in phrasing I defently think the 'step per count' method will make your life easier in the long run.

Anyway, I think I've been posting way too much and too long. I'm off to commercially operate elsewhere!

Chau!
x
A

ps actually I could be commercially operating at a dance event near you! If people coming to Blaze want all this covered in a class then let me or Franck know. If it is not already being covered by someone else I would be happy to take it on.

[Astro]

I remember reading on a different thread, some bloke saying he was beginning to get bored at ceroc, then he discovered musicality, and I think it happened in one of Amir's classes.

My question is, as a female follower, if the lead is not phrasing and I start to phase, would it be labelled as negative backleading or as positive contribution to the dance?

(Obviously I'm not talking about phrasing with beginners).

[MartinHarper]

As a female follower, if the lead is not phrasing and I start to phase, would it be labelled as negative backleading or as positive contribution to the dance?

In WCS, Tatiana distinguished between two things:
1) The follower does what she is lead to do, but takes longer to do it. Perhaps making a turn take longer.
2) The follower refuses to do what she is lead to do. Perhaps refusing to step in when lead to step in.

She said that the first one was good, and taught the followers some possibilities for doing so. She also said that the second one was evil and wrong. Bearing in mind that WCS is a follower-centric dance, my feeling is that in Modern Jive the second option would be even more wrong and evil, and shall result in an absence of cookies. I'm less sure about the first option.

[straycat]

Anyway, I think I've been posting way too much and too long. I'm off to commercially operate elsewhere!


Not possible, I'm afraid. Now that you've commercially operated here to this extent, you are contractually obliged to limit your commercial operations to this one forum for the rest of your born days. This is not negotiable. :na:

[Beowulf]

I read this thread before and it meant nothing to me.. but thanks to Caro and her teachings last night I kind of understand it now.

:cool: :clap:

weither or not I manage to put it into practice though is another thing altogether !

[Caro]

I read this thread before and it meant nothing to me.. but thanks to Caro and her teachings last night I kind of understand it now.


I must be a good teacher then :waycool:

cause it can't be that I'm just good at repeating what others have told me :whistle:


weither or not I manage to put it into practice though is another thing altogether !

just keep practicing :)

[Astro]

In WCS, Titania distinguished between two things:
1) The follower does what she is lead to do, but takes longer to do it. Perhaps making a turn take longer. Yes, this is what I meant! I am timing the moves for the lead, but I am following all his moves, I am not leading any moves.


She said that the first one was good, and taught the followers some possibilities for doing so.

I think it would be the same for MJ. When followers dance with experienced leads, they learn about timing. But, how can unexperienced leads learn about timing or even that it exists? It is not taught at a regular Ceroc class.

[MartinHarper]

Yes, this is what I meant! I am timing the moves for the lead, but I am following all his moves, I am not leading any moves.

Actually, that wasn't the distinction I was trying to draw, though I agree that leading your own moves would be non-ideal. Instead, I was trying to distinguish between changing the timing of the end of a led movement, versus changing the timing of the beginning of a led movement.


I think it would be the same for MJ. When followers dance with experienced leads, they learn about timing.

We do? Darn: I should pay more attention.

[Chef]

I think it would be the same for MJ. When followers dance with experienced leads, they learn about timing. But, how can unexperienced leads learn about timing or even that it exists? It is not taught at a regular Ceroc class.

Sad to say but a lot of really insightful stuff I have come across has not been learnt at regular Ceroc classes. There are many opinions about why this might be so but a regular ceroc class has to cover a fairly wide range of people in terms of their motivation and capacity to absorb the more technical stuff. If they tried to go too in depth in a regular Ceroc class a lot of people would just decamp to the bar and then go to another venue if it was a regular feature of the venue.

This sort of stuff is mostly taught at specialist workshops (some Ceroc and some not) and at weekenders. Most peoples path seems to be to follow that of filling themselves up with loads of moves to do and then reach a point when they ask "is that all there is" and start seeking out classes that are more technical rather than a movefest. They then find that they can do do their moves better by understanding more of the technical stuff and so come to value those lessons more than any others.

People tend to seek out the teachers they need when they realise that they need them.

[Astro]

In WCS, Tatiana distinguished between two things:
1) The follower does what she is lead to do, but takes longer to do it. Perhaps making a turn take longer.



Actually, that wasn't the distinction I was trying to draw, though I agree that leading your own moves would be non-ideal. Instead, I was trying to distinguish between changing the timing of the end of a led movement, versus changing the timing of the beginning of a led movement.
But surely the timing of the move could be slowed down or speeded up at the beginning too?



This sort of stuff is mostly taught at specialist workshops (some Ceroc and some not) and at weekenders. Most peoples path seems to be to follow that of filling themselves up with loads of moves to do and then reach a point when they ask "is that all there is" and start seeking out classes that are more technical rather than a movefest. They then find that they can do do their moves better by understanding more of the technical stuff and so come to value those lessons more than any others.
Are you saying that dancer's need to get all technical to be able to phrase/use musicality in their dancing? Because even beginner's moves need musicality as in the Ceroc X Catogary at The Champs, which I watched last year. In fact judges give marks for it. Someone said it is the main thing you need to win. Yet as you say it is not taught. Possibly it may be taught at the ceroc workshops which take place on Sundays. Anyone know?

People tend to seek out the teachers they need when they realise that they need them.
When the pupil is ready, the Master appears. (or somesuch)

So surely there must be leads who learned/discovered phrasing from followers?

[Chef]

Are you saying that dancer's need to get all technical to be able to phrase/use musicality in their dancing? Because even beginner's moves need musicality as in the Ceroc X Catogary at The Champs, which I watched last year. In fact judges give marks for it. Someone said it is the main thing you need to win. Yet as you say it is not taught. Possibly it may be taught at the ceroc workshops which take place on Sundays. Anyone know?


What I am saying is that GENERAL classes only go into a certain amount of depth and if you want to go deeper into some aspects then you have to make a choice to go along to SPECIALIST workshops. Ceroc also do these, I mostly only know about Francks focus workshops (home area Edinburgh/Glasgow but also teaches at weekenders and will be doing a weekend in London at Utopia in July I think) and the classes taught by Amir and Nigel anderson.

If you let us know which area of the country you are living in then perhaps some forumites can point you to events or workshops within reach of you.

I am also saying that MOST people who go along to MJ nights are quite happy to know enough to do moves relatively in time with the music and they have a great deal of fun doing just that. Some people do want to take things further, without always knowing what it is they want/need to learn or where/who they should look for teachers.


So surely there must be leads who learned/discovered phrasing from followers?

Not usually learnt from followers (unless it is during a long and detailed chat in the bar). If a follower starts hitting breaks or doing musical interpretation on a unknowing novice leader it usually results in the leader just being confused at first and then that gives way into "I know I should be doing something here but I just don't know what it is". It also needs the leader and the follower to be sufficiently proficient in the moves so that they can put that aspect almost on autopilot and have spare mental capacity to be able to listen to the music (rather than just the beat) to hear the musicality that is attached to the beat structure. At the moment I am having severe difficulties in WCS of being able to marry up moves to music because of my lack of proficiency in the moves. I often only notice an opportunity for musical expression in WCS as it politely glides past me waving goodbye leaving me with the thought of "darn, I should have done something with that peice of music".


IMHO it is much better to have it all explained to you in a classroom style envioroment, with demonstrations before you try and put it into practice. The teachers that I mentioned above give excellant lessons on this.

[bigdjiver]

...When the pupil is ready, the Master appears. (or somesuch)...The teachers I know use the phrases "scaffolding of learning" and "zone of proximal development". which I translate as "You gotta learn some stuff before you can learn some stuff."

[MartinHarper]

But surely the timing of the move could be slowed down or speeded up at the beginning too?

Of course that is possible. However, Tatiana was saying, quite strongly, that a WCS follower should not alter the timing of the beginning of a movement from what is led, in order to phrase. That's what I wanted to pass on.

[Astro]

I mostly only know about Francks focus workshops (home area Edinburgh/Glasgow but also teaches at weekenders and will be doing a weekend in London at Utopia in July I think) and the classes taught by Amir and Nigel anderson.

If you let us know which area of the country you are living in then perhaps some forumites can point you to events or workshops within reach of you.
I live in London and have been to some of Amir's and Nigel's classes, but not their workshops. I think I may have seen you at Ealing, do you wear Chef's trousers? I also plan on going to Jango.


Not usually learnt from followers (unless it is during a long and detailed chat in the bar). If a follower starts hitting breaks or doing musical interpretation on a unknowing novice leader it usually results in the leader just being confused at first and then that gives way into "I know I should be doing something here but I just don't know what it is". It also needs the leader and the follower to be sufficiently proficient in the moves so that they can put that aspect almost on autopilot and have spare mental capacity to be able to listen to the music (rather than just the beat) to hear the musicality that is attached to the beat structure. :respect:



[quote=MartinHarper;365332]Of course that is possible. However, Tatiana was saying, quite strongly, that a WCS follower should not alter the timing of the beginning of a movement from what is led, in order to phrase. That's what I wanted to pass on.
Got you now.:flower:

[Chef]

Astro just sent me a message asking me if, since she is a female follow, she would need to go along to speciality workshops on musicality.

I thought I would reply in public because I would like to express my view to all the other followers who may be asking this question and also to see if other leaders and followers had the same or different views.

I think it is good for both leaders and followers to go to these lessons/workshops for the following reasons.

LEADERS

They need to understand the music and how to fit moves to the phrasing of the music so that the dance and the music can merge together. They need to understand how to read the musical clues in music that can tell them when accent points and breaks are coming or going to be. They also need a vocabulary of moves to do that will fit in with these points in the music ( at least as a starting point so they can develop their own style later on)

FOLLOWERS

To start with the leaders need someone to dance with when they are learning this stuff (dull I know but true). They also need to know what the leaders know so they have an expectation of the sort of things a leader might do to deliver them to the accent point or break in the music, and armed with the expection that they will be delivered to the music they will know when they may have the opportunity to do movement (or lack of it) within a break or arm, head or shoulder styling at an accent point.

Perhaps other forumites can add more benefits for followers when attending musicality workshops.

[DavidY]

It's a lot less technical than what Chef has said... but it's so much fun when a follower "hears" the same aspects of the music as me (when I'm leading).

[Geordieed]

Of course that is possible. However, Tatiana was saying, quite strongly, that a WCS follower should not alter the timing of the beginning of a movement from what is led, in order to phrase. That's what I wanted to pass on.



That does not mean that a follower can't alter the timing of a pattern to help it make a phrase. Just when you can't influence the pattern. There are guides to when a follower can influence a pattern. That includes changing the pattern after the post is set.

If a leader begins leading between phrasing and hasn't show that he/she has recognised the phrase change there is unfortunately little that the follower can do. A follower is still a follower...