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Twirlie Bird
16th-April-2007, 12:37 AM
DISCLAIMER

Ok I am not looking to spark a huge debate here. :eek: I know that it was very recently somebody (no names mentioned) :whistle: sparked a huge discussion about aerials. The rights and wrongs (and everything in between). Busy floors, empty floors etc....... :rolleyes:

All I am looking for is some clarification on something I heard at the weekend. Have Ceroc changed their rules on aerials at a dance venue? :confused:

Apparently my local venues have just put up posters saying 'no aerials'. This, they said is down to new national Ceroc rules. However speaking to somebody over the weekend it appears this isn't true. :confused: It may well be down to the local franchisee but nothing to do with a national rule. As I am new to all of this I am just asking for somebody to explain the guidelines. Do Ceroc allow aerials where appropriate? Is it down to the franchisee or even the venue managers to impose their own regulations and rules? If indeed there is a no aerials rule then how is an aerial defined? Is it simply both feet leaving the floor?:confused:

Please lets for the sake of me getting an answer to this question just assume that we all understand the safety aspect of aerials on a dance floor regardless of how busy it is :whistle: :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
16th-April-2007, 07:37 AM
DISCLAIMER

Ok I am not looking to spark a huge debate here. :eek: I know that it was very recently somebody (no names mentioned) :whistle: sparked a huge discussion about aerials. The rights and wrongs (and everything in between). Busy floors, empty floors etc....... :rolleyes:




It was Me. :D :rofl:

ducasi
16th-April-2007, 08:21 AM
All I am looking for is some clarification on something I heard at the weekend. Have Ceroc changed their rules on aerials at a dance venue? :confused:

Apparently my local venues have just put up posters saying 'no aerials'. This, they said is down to new national Ceroc rules. However speaking to somebody over the weekend it appears this isn't true. :confused: It may well be down to the local franchisee but nothing to do with a national rule. Well on Saturday I watched one employee of Ceroc Scotland doing a couple of aerials with another employee of Ceroc Scotland, so I'd guess there isn't a nation-wide ban, unless the "nation" is just England... :whistle:

(For avoidance of doubt, the aerials were done on a mostly empty dance floor with lots of space around the dancers. :))

JiveLad
16th-April-2007, 09:07 AM
Yes - this (no aerials) was announced and made clear at Ceroc Metro in the last week.

Someone told me (and I cannot vouch for the veracity) that there had been an incident and somebody got a head injury - and that may have been a contributory factor to the policy.

Twirlie Bird
16th-April-2007, 09:44 AM
Well on Saturday I watched one employee of Ceroc Scotland doing a couple of aerials with another employee of Ceroc Scotland, so I'd guess there isn't a nation-wide ban, unless the "nation" is just England... :whistle:




Yes - this (no aerials) was announced and made clear at Ceroc Metro in the last week.

Someone told me (and I cannot vouch for the veracity) that there had been an incident and somebody got a head injury - and that may have been a contributory factor to the policy.

So is it just an English ban :confused: You can see there is much confusion here :what: It seems strange to me as I have not seen many people doing aerials on the dance floor. However some of the people I have seen doing them are the very people who are now saying 'no' :whistle:

Also with this new ban/policy what is classed as an aerial?

fletch
16th-April-2007, 10:01 AM
Also with this new ban/policy what is classed as an aerial?
well what you were doing with Stokie at The Monster Jive on Saturday was differently an aerial :rofl:


:worthy:

Twirlie Bird
16th-April-2007, 10:09 AM
Also with this new ban/policy what is classed as an aerial?
well what you were doing with Stokie at The Monster Jive on Saturday was differently an aerial :rofl:

:worthy:

Thanks Fletch for clearing that up :rofl:

Seriously I know that sort of thing is an obvious aerial but what about the smaller jumps? Are they classed as aerials as both feet do leave the floor? :confused: However such jumps are nowhere near as dangerous as some drops I've seen. :sick:

I'm wondering where this will stop. Are drops the next thing to be banned? I do appreciate there is a responsibilty on Ceroc but surely this must also be wieghed up with dancers common sense and freedom of expression :confused:

John S
16th-April-2007, 10:13 AM
This is a hardy annual on the forum, and it's going to be difficult to say anything new, so I won't try.

Anyone doing anything on the dance floor (or anywhere else for that matter) has a duty of care to others, and anyone who suffers loss or injury if that duty is not exercised properly or reasonably may succeed in a claim for damages. That could apply on a very simple Ceroc move if (for example) one dancer whacked another with his/her foot or elbow by carelessness or inebriation.

However, aerial moves are inherently more dangerous, both to the people performing them and to others on the dance floor (one person is completely off the ground, assorted limbs are flailing around at head height, etc) therefore the risks of injury are greater and the injury is likely to be more serious - therefore the consequences of a successful claim would be greater.

I have no idea what (if any) the "official" Ceroc policy is, but my advice to any commercial operator would be to openly and specifically state that aerial moves are prohibited during public dancing sessions, and for that rule to be enforced by the teacher or venue manager - that way the operator can demonstrate that he/she has properly exercised a duty of care.

Simon r
16th-April-2007, 10:14 AM
Thanks Fletch for clearing that up :rofl:

Seriously I know that sort of thing is an obvious aerial but what about the smaller jumps? Are they classed as aerials as both feet do leave the floor? :confused: However such jumps are nowhere near as dangerous as some drops I've seen. :sick:

I'm wondering where this will stop. Are drops the next thing to be banned? I do appreciate there is a responsibilty on Ceroc but surely this must also be wieghed up with dancers common sense and freedom of expression :confused:

I believe this is for insurance purposes and yes this includes all mini airials as well.
The ban is for all Ceroc venues, surrounding rooms and car parks. If you need to practice your airials then you need to hire a studio to practice.

the ban does not include the Ceroc champs.

This is based on the information i was given to announce.

Dan Hudson
16th-April-2007, 10:28 AM
I believe this is for insurance purposes and yes this includes all mini airials as well.
The ban is for all Ceroc venues, surrounding rooms and car parks. If you need to practice your airials then you need to hire a studio to practice.

the ban does not include the Ceroc champs.

This is based on the information i was given to announce.

:yeah:

It is an insurance thing:flower:

Trouble
16th-April-2007, 10:34 AM
This is a good move as far as im concerned.:respect: Aerials have no place on a dance floor unless its a completition and you are on your own and looking to impress or advance your marks. Or of course if your doing a show.

Lets face it, Aerials are about showing off nothing else.:na:

Simon r
16th-April-2007, 10:51 AM
This is a good move as far as im concerned.:respect: Aerials have no place on a dance floor unless its a completition and you are on your own and looking to impress or advance your marks. Or of course if your doing a show.

Lets face it, Aerials are about showing off nothing else.:na:

Well there is quite a bit of technical work and practice that goes in to making an airial work and a hell of a lot of practice which does in my opinion make them much harder to master than general freestyle dancing.

We have always worked in private studios when perfecting a lift, obviously with no insurance and at our own risk. When we have been very confident we would then sometimes practice at a venue at the end of the night but normaly with spotters.

I actually think this is quite fair by Ceroc, and will hopefully stop the very dangerous art of airials on the dance floor

Twirlie Bird
16th-April-2007, 12:19 PM
Well there is quite a bit of technical work and practice that goes in to making an airial work and a hell of a lot of practice which does in my opinion make them much harder to master than general freestyle dancing.


:yeah: :yeah:

I agree it looks very showy but it's not all about showing off. They are incredibly difficult to master but when you do they feel absolutly fanatastic :awe: . They also look awesome. There's a reason they are down in these celebrity dancing/skating shows, you know. :rolleyes: They are another dimension to dance. Dips and seducers could be classed as showing off. :what: Multiple spins could be classed as showing off. :what: They are an expression. A part of dancing. Each to their own :whistle:

bigdjiver
16th-April-2007, 12:23 PM
I love "arials", and I know many ladies that love them too. I know many people that love watching them. Providing the couple dancing them know the risks to themselves, and accept them, and provided that they are no danger to anybody else, I think that the dangers should be specified on a disclaimer form that every member should sign. Unless the couple is a danger to others arials should be allowed. Members who ignore warnings should be banned.

I believe that dancing to fast tracks is dangerous too, as are laybacks and dips, drops and seducers, and dancing without enough space, and dancing with long sharp nails, and with clothing that can tangle, and drinking alcohol and getting to venues by motor-bike and dancing with untrained dancers and jewellry and pulling partner through the legs, and slides, and expansive arm gestures and long hair and chewing gum and ...

My dance experience has just devalued 60% if this is enforced. My enthusiasm for Ceroc is down to the extension into the performance field, and find a steady partner and rent your own studio is no reasonable alternative.

Trouble
16th-April-2007, 12:26 PM
Aerials look lovely and are very difficult to achieve but there are places and times for them. I have had many a near miss from aerials being performed inappropriately.

You are right, some drops, dips and such are just as dangerous and it would be horrible if they were to be banned as well.

Simon r
16th-April-2007, 12:40 PM
I love "arials", and I know many ladies that love them too. I know many people that love watching them. Providing the couple dancing them know the risks to themselves, and accept them, and provided that they are no danger to anybody else, I think that the dangers should be specified on a disclaimer form that every member should sign. Unless the couple is a danger to others arials should be allowed. Members who ignore warnings should be banned.

I believe that dancing to fast tracks is dangerous too, as are laybacks and dips, drops and seducers, and dancing without enough space, and dancing with long sharp nails, and with clothing that can tangle, and drinking alcohol and getting to venues by motor-bike and dancing with untrained dancers and jewellry and pulling partner through the legs, and slides, and expansive arm gestures and long hair and chewing gum and ...

My dance experience has just devalued 60% if this is enforced. My enthusiasm for Ceroc is down to the extension into the performance field, and find a steady partner and rent your own studio is no reasonable alternative.

Sorry not if.....

Went in to force last week at Ceroc as i understand.

So from now on there are no air steps at Ceroc clubs

StokeBloke
16th-April-2007, 12:52 PM
First Move Hop Across - Banned
Nosebleed Drop - Fine

Confused

Twirlie Bird
16th-April-2007, 12:55 PM
I love "arials", and I know many ladies that love them too.

:yeah: :yeah:


I believe that dancing to fast tracks is dangerous too, as are laybacks and dips, drops and seducers, and dancing without enough space, and dancing with long sharp nails, and with clothing that can tangle, and drinking alcohol and getting to venues by motor-bike and dancing with untrained dancers and jewellry and pulling partner through the legs, and slides, and expansive arm gestures and long hair and chewing gum and ...

Ohh we are sailing very close to that last thread now :rolleyes:

It comes down to the fact that everything has some aspect of danger to it and the people doing it should be the ones responsible. If I was performing an aerial and somebody got hurt as a result then that is my fault, well mine and my partners fault. We are responsibile. The sad fact is too many people can't or won't or are simply not responsible. They do dangersous moves when it is inappropiate and therefore the powers that be feel they need to step in. I do undestand. It just seems a shame that we all have to pay the price for some peoples stupidity and lack of judgement. :tears:



My dance experience has just devalued 60% if this is enforced. My enthusiasm for Ceroc is down to the extension into the performance field, and find a steady partner and rent your own studio is no reasonable alternative.

:yeah: I am so with you here. I love the whole freedom of dance. I am sensible and responsible and I will take responsibility for my own actions. I feel I am being penalised here and you are right. Hiring a studio isn't quite the same :sick:

Twirlie Bird
16th-April-2007, 12:59 PM
Aerials look lovely and are very difficult to achieve but there are places and times for them. I have had many a near miss from aerials being performed inappropriately.

You are right, some drops, dips and such are just as dangerous and it would be horrible if they were to be banned as well.

This is the sad fact. It's inappropriate. :mad: There is a time and a place for everything. Some of the venues I dance in are big places but with very few people all night. Performing an aerial at anytime at this venue would be appropriate and safe to other dancers. That would be appropriate. However now I will be unable to do this as it's banned :what:

2Tone
16th-April-2007, 01:03 PM
I'm With Twirlie Bird On This One:nice:

There is nothing More Amazing than Performing Aerials wether it be a Small Jump or a Dramatic Swan Dive, It realy gets the adrenaline flowing!!!!. Its not about showing off ( well not all the time! ) They take alot of time and hard effort to practice and its not the sort of thing you can dance with anyone. :sad:


So When you find somebody who is capable / Confident of doing big lifts you make the most of it as there are so few out there who do.

I Personaly Love Them and if a guy offers to try big lift I'm usually happy to try. You usualy find a quiet corner somewhere to practice a bit first and have a friend to help spot should something go wrong.

As there are so few Classes available those of us daring / stupid enough to try these things will.:D

If more classes were to be held teaching mini aerials maybe it would be a lot safer for all of us.

I can honestly say I have had more bruises from being trodden on by heeled shoes - OUCH!!! hit by Flailing Arms OUCH!!! and the most common injury - Having your arms pulled out of there sockets by Over Enthustaic Male Dancers - DOUBLE OUCH!!!!!!

Gadget
16th-April-2007, 01:16 PM
Air steps are easy to define (in comparison to other "dangerous" moves). They are specifically mentioned in competition rules: I don't see where the confusion is in banning them and not anything else.

Any "dangerous" dancing (no matter what name you give it) is not advisable on the social dance floor. The Ceroc dance floor is a social dance floor. I think that teachers and organisers/venue managers should always be trying to maintain this 'social' dance floor and should activly discourage any form of dangerous dancing on it. Making it 'company policy' helps and backs up the people who try to keep it safe for everyone else.

Achaeco
16th-April-2007, 03:25 PM
Nothing has been said from Ceroc Central

Keefy
16th-April-2007, 04:04 PM
It is an insurance thing:flower:Is it? Or is it yet another of those "my mate down the pub heard...." type of insurance scares? If it's an insurance thing then sight of the exact policy wording that is actually in force would be useful, how in insurance and legal terms does one define an Aerial?

I saw and heard this ban at a Ceroc Metro venue last week, I must admit that it sounded rather hypocritical to me banning any and all aerial work anywhere near a Ceroc venue but allowing it at the Ceroc champs! The wording used implied that it was a national ban. Mind you, it was also accompanied by one of those "we will not be responsible for anything whatsoever" disclaimer notices that are not worth the paper they are written on under English law.

bigdjiver
16th-April-2007, 04:32 PM
... I must admit that it sounded rather hypocritical to me banning any and all aerial work anywhere near a Ceroc venue but allowing it at the Ceroc champs! ...It seems to me that if Ceroc is just teaching social dance then arials should not be part of the Ceroc Champs.

Personally I just regarded MJ as a social pastime until I attended the Le Jive Championships. When I discovered the additional dimensions that the dance could have I became almost a missionary for my new wider vision of MJ, and have given my time and efforts, such as were available, to spread the word and develop the dance according to my vision of it.

The venues that I usually attend have space enough for arials in a quiet corner by the end of the evening. Personally I will not attend events that are so crowded that almost any move carries danger. The Casbah and Hammersmith were in that category last time I visited them, quite some time ago, and I avoided them for that reason. I have been to one Ceroc venue where there was enough room to play tennis down one end. I do not think a blanket ban is right.

Frankie_4711
16th-April-2007, 06:37 PM
I love "arials", and I know many ladies that love them too. I know many people that love watching them. Providing the couple dancing them know the risks to themselves, and accept them, and provided that they are no danger to anybody else, I think that the dangers should be specified on a disclaimer form that every member should sign. Unless the couple is a danger to others arials should be allowed. Members who ignore warnings should be banned.

I believe that dancing to fast tracks is dangerous too, as are laybacks and dips, drops and seducers, and dancing without enough space, and dancing with long sharp nails, and with clothing that can tangle, and drinking alcohol and getting to venues by motor-bike and dancing with untrained dancers and jewellry and pulling partner through the legs, and slides, and expansive arm gestures and long hair and chewing gum and ...

My dance experience has just devalued 60% if this is enforced. My enthusiasm for Ceroc is down to the extension into the performance field, and find a steady partner and rent your own studio is no reasonable alternative.

:yeah: to all of the above. I would happily sign a disclaimer if it meant I could carry on doing arials - I love 'em! And anyway, what's the use in practicing them in a private studio if you're never going to dance them (unless you enter a competition, which I doubt I will)? I like to do them because they're fun (as well as because I'm a show-off ... yeah, I'll admit it!). Of course, I love all the other stuff, but to know I'll never be able to do an arial again ... :tears:

I wait with baited breath to see if anything is announced at tonight's class ...

And I take it there will be some last minute changes to the Chill schedule too ... there's generally an arials class in there somewhere (usually the highlight of my weekend!)

StokeBloke
16th-April-2007, 06:55 PM
The independent operators must be rubbing their hands together with glee at Ceroc's decision on dumbing down dancing at their venues. It will in effect mean that the creative dancers who enjoy expressing themselves safely with these moves will have no option but to attend their dances (unless the independents follow Ceroc's suit - not something they seem to make a habit of though).

I agree with the sentiment but not the execution. It's like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut - unsafe dancers should be warned by venue managers and then repeat offenders asked to leave (and/or receive a ban).

It will be interesting to see if their is an ariel workshop at Chill in light of this ill conceived idea.


Yet More Nanny State Madness

Double Trouble
16th-April-2007, 07:05 PM
unsafe dancers should be warned by venue managers and then repeat offenders asked to leave (and/or receive a ban).


Thing is Stokie, it would cause arguments if you pick and choose who is safe and who isn't. No one is likely to agree thay are being unsafe.

I think its best to rule aerials out all together at freestyles, then there are no arguments or grey areas.

Remember the golden rule - K.I.S.S.:wink:

Mezzosoprano
16th-April-2007, 07:11 PM
:rofl: Aerials would be really unsafe for anyone dancing with me.... picture the scene... RAigmore Hospital Accident and Emergency - "So Sir, what exactly happened?"..."Well, see that heftly short person over there..." "yes sir.." "I tried to lift her!" " Oh, I see... that explains the hernia then!" :sick: :rofl:

the whale
16th-April-2007, 07:19 PM
"I tried to lift her!"

Where's Dave the scafolder or JCB when you need them :devil: :wink: ?

Trousers
16th-April-2007, 07:22 PM
I don't lead air steps.
I rarely lead dips or drops.

Does that make me a worse dancer than the numpty (imo) that starts throwing a woman around. I won't even start on the can he do the move, can she do the move, is there space, did he warn the follow before hand questions.

This is like someone said an Annual and it comes up over and over and basically to those newbies that raise the issues I think we forumites always leave no doubt that yes they are moves but the rules for doing them are strict and should always be adhered to. Unfortunately these appear to be OUR rules because Mr and Ms franchisee NEVER NEVER say the important stuff like look out for other dancers, dance with care, ask before doing out of the ordinary moves, use deodorant, etc.

Without a nightly reminder of dance safety, Numpty's think they can do their own thing whenever and with whomever they wish.

Rather than a franchise ban on the moves would a nightly reminder be more use. The point surely has to be dance safety - As Stokie pointed out a nosebleeder dip could really mess up someones evening, face, neck and possibly the floor too. But done confidently and with care looks and probably feels great for the girl.

Has the plot been missed yet again

Even if the ban stands I'd still appreciate the franchises verbalising the general safety message from the stage from the Teacher who (in most cases) is someone that the punters tend to respect.

Unsafe dancers naff me off
and they don't need to do air steps to do it.

grrrrr

Sheepman
16th-April-2007, 08:02 PM
So aerials go the same way as smoking - restricted to something to be done in private.
That suits me fine, the abscence of both makes dancing safer and more pleasant for me. And yes, I have enjoyed doing aerials in the past, (and having them done to me.) Even occasionally on the dance floor. :blush:

But this isn't a first amongst MJ, some independent venues have long had a ban on aerials, I don't see their business affected much.

So all we need to do now is ban those pesky drops, all predictably dance in a slot, and to the music. Sounds familiar? ...:whistle:

Weren't there "No Jiving" signs put up in dance halls in the 1940s, maybe someone is planning to dig those out soon.

Greg

Lorna
16th-April-2007, 09:35 PM
I've not heard anything at all from Ceroc or Franck on this matter.

So, as far as I know it hasn't reached us yet.

Lxx

TheTramp
16th-April-2007, 11:03 PM
This is like someone said an Annual and it comes up over and over and basically to those newbies that raise the issues I think we forumites always leave no doubt that yes they are moves but the rules for doing them are strict and should always be adhered to. Unfortunately these appear to be OUR rules because Mr and Ms franchisee NEVER NEVER say the important stuff like look out for other dancers, dance with care, ask before doing out of the ordinary moves, use deodorant, etc.

You obviously go to the wrong franchisees (well, obviously it'd be the teachers saying it, but same sort of thing).

Mac
16th-April-2007, 11:24 PM
I've not heard anything at all from Ceroc or Franck on this matter.

So, as far as I know it hasn't reached us yet.

Lxx




I know the victim and perpertrator of the particuler incident that has led to this issue being raised. I can tell you as I was there as was many other forum members.

The move executed was done so without any notice or signal, verbal or otherwise. The Victim was given no choice and when the move was executed the first she knew of it was that it was going terribly wrong. Im not going into further detail because the people concerned are both private people.

The man I can tell you feels dreadful. He cannot forgive himself for what has happend. He has executed the move many times with another partner and has seen the victim execute the same move many times also with a reguler arials partner.

It went wrong because he assumed that as both dancers were practiced in the move, that it would have been easily achievable.:(

The result of this is that the victim has suffered delayed concusion. She has suffered for over two months and her dancing for a long time was reduced to zero. Anyone knowing the victim well will know how difficult this would have been for her.:sad: :sad:

The lesson is surely never do an arial move without the expressed consent from the other party and with plenty of warning:really:

I was informed by a senior member of the Ceroc H Q team that Arials have always been disallowed across the Ceroc spectrum on class nights . I was advised that this extends to all venues. Apparently If Venues allow arials they are doing so at thier own risk.:(

The big issue for me here is that almost exclusively if an arial goes wrong its likely to be the follower that suffers the injury, :(

personally I would hate to be in that mans position. It could happen as I do arial moves.:sick:

Any follower would hate to be in the victims position thats for sure.:sick: :sick:

Scan results are still outstanding. Lets hope and pray theres no long term damage:what:


and people......Anyone listening to Radio Two the other morning will have heard a story about a woman sueing a man for Negligent dancing
The venue organisor is also being sued for not making it explicit that dancing is a contact sport undertaken at your own risk.

You have been warned.:devil:

CJ
17th-April-2007, 12:05 AM
Aerials are dangerous.

Aren't they?!?:confused:

Guns are dangerous.

Or is it the people who shoot guns??:confused:

Numpties are dangerous. Not aerials. Maybe if Ceroc banned all numpties, instead....:D :rolleyes:

I'm interested that Ceroc (Scotland) has no insurance issues yet other Ceroc franchisees do.:eek:

Frankie_4711
17th-April-2007, 07:11 AM
Time for a new logo methinks ... ?

No announcement at my class last night, so I asked the teacher about it. He said it was still in the pipeline, but not yet in force.

bigdjiver
17th-April-2007, 07:22 AM
I don't lead air steps.
I rarely lead dips or drops.

Does that make me a worse dancer ...For me dancing is about enjoying movement to music. If everybody is is doing that then I am content. The quality and the content of the dance as perceived by me is of little consequence to me as long as everybody is enjoying the experience.


So aerials go the same way as smoking - restricted to something to be done in private.
That suits me fine, the abscence of both makes dancing safer and more pleasant for me. And yes, I have enjoyed doing aerials in the past, (and having them done to me.) Even occasionally on the dance floor. :blush:

But this isn't a first amongst MJ, some independent venues have long had a ban on aerials, I don't see their business affected much.

So all we need to do now is ban those pesky drops, all predictably dance in a slot, and to the music. Sounds familiar? ...:whistle:

Weren't there "No Jiving" signs put up in dance halls in the 1940s, maybe someone is planning to dig those out soon.

GregFor me Jive As a social dance does not match the waltz, foxtrot or even quickstep. I abandoned those as soon as I discovered the heart-pumping joy of jive, first muggle Rock'n'roll, and then muggle Trad Jive. I came to dance halls when they were in decline. When jive itself was too dangerous for the crowded dancefloor.

I am sure that there is an element of adrenalin junkie in my jive addicition. Never having experienced it, I assume that there is a similar adrenalin rush for a follower in being swept off ones feet or finding onseself upside down. There are at least four regular ladies at my local venue that like doing the half-moon with me, and I get requests for that "whirl-around thing" at freestyles from ladies that I have danced with only once or twice, sometimes years before. The only other arial I use often is a lift from a lean. I will do the hip-hop if my partner dates back to when it was taught at Ceroc. I also remember the first move jump being taught, but I used that very rarely.

It is my guess that there is a significant percentage of Ceroc addicts that came for that adrenalin rush associated with the more vigorous activity and that hint of danger. I suspect that percentage are more commited to MJ than the average member. It does seem to me that Ceroc is aging along with its members, management and crew. It is becoming slower and safer. My guess is that that change in ethos is taking it further away from the younger generation that we might hope to attract. I cannot remember when I last heard "I am getting too old for this".

Cruella
17th-April-2007, 08:24 AM
Have Ceroc changed their rules on aerials at a dance venue? :confused:
:


I believe this is for insurance purposes and yes this includes all mini airials as well.


Air steps are easy to define .


The venues that I usually attend have space enough for arials in a quiet corner by the end of the evening.


I have just one question.

How the hell do you spell aer..air...eir :rolleyes:

bigdjiver
17th-April-2007, 08:32 AM
... The move executed was done so without any notice or signal, verbal or otherwise. The Victim was given no choice and when the move was executed the first she knew of it was that it was going terribly wrong. Im not going into further detail because the people concerned are both private people.I would like to know which move was involved.



The man I can tell you feels dreadful. He cannot forgive himself for what has happend. He has executed the move many times with another partner and has seen the victim execute the same move many times also with a reguler arials partner.

It went wrong because he assumed that as both dancers were practiced in the move, that it would have been easily achievable.:(
I have been guilty of making that assumption myself, most often when doing a move from the class with a newcomer. She starts to turn the wrong way, I instinctively strengthen the lead, but she reacts by using more force.... fortunately I have learned enough to be aware, and have, so far, always relaxed in time to avoid injury.


The result of this is that the victim has suffered delayed concusion. She has suffered for over two months and her dancing for a long time was reduced to zero. Anyone knowing the victim well will know how difficult this would have been for her.:sad: :sad: I am sorry to hear this, and hope that she makes a full recovery. Obviously she should have been consulted. OTOH sometime in the learning process such an accident could have happened with her regular partner, and I have seen 3 heavy falls from ladies trying double spins.


The lesson is surely never do an arial move without the expressed consent from the other party and with plenty of warning:really: :yeah:


I was informed by a senior member of the Ceroc H Q team that Arials have always been disallowed across the Ceroc spectrum on class nights . Not "always". I was taught way-back the Hip-Hop at three different franchises, the first move jump at two, and two or so years ago saw another arial negligently taught at another franchise, leading to a fall and concussion. The teacher seemed surprised when I remonstrated with her afterwards.



I was advised that this extends to all venues. Apparently If Venues allow arials they are doing so at thier own risk.:(

The big issue for me here is that almost exclusively if an arial goes wrong its likely to be the follower that suffers the injury,.. :(
The risk to the follower concerns me too. However I have seen how much joy and sense of achievement that my partners get from doing those moves, and I intend to continue, whilst doing everything I can to keep them safe.

Keefy
17th-April-2007, 09:44 AM
...and people......Anyone listening to Radio Two the other morning will have heard a story about a woman suing a man for Negligent dancing
The venue organisor is also being sued for not making it explicit that dancing is a contact sport undertaken at your own risk.

You have been warned.:devil:But what is never reported is that speculative shotgun-up-a-tree actions from the no win no fee parasites hardly ever actually result in anything. As for "being sued" I very much doubt it, that will be the usual misreporting. What has probably happened is that the speculative letter inviting an out-of-court settlement has gone out from the parasites, any resistance and the case will be dropped.

But the "ooohhh - somebody is being sued for...." passes into folk lore.

I strongly suspect that what we have here with Ceroc is the fear of being sued, knee jerk reaction to that fear can result in dumbing down and ridiculous restrictions that simply aren't needed. If Ceroc want support and acceptance for this ban then let's hear about some ACTUAL court cases and case law that has resulted in the insurers themselves imposing a restriction.

tsh
17th-April-2007, 12:58 PM
And I take it there will be some last minute changes to the Chill schedule too ... there's generally an arials class in there somewhere (usually the highlight of my weekend!)

How on earth can a mass aerials class be the highlight of your weekend? It might be a bit of fun, and leave you feeling that you've had a bit of a work-out, but surely if you want to learn aerials you'd be going to a smaller and more intensive class where it's possible to learn more dangerous moves with a degree of safety. Doing this might give you a better appreciation of how things can go wrong as well, something which doesn't come across well in a large class.

Sean

onkar
17th-April-2007, 01:15 PM
I would like to know which move was involved.


I believe the move was the backflip.

Onkar

bigdjiver
17th-April-2007, 01:47 PM
I believe the move was the backflip.

OnkarThanks.

That is not one of the moves that I have ever wanted to do, on the grounds that it is too much acrobatics and too little dance.

One of my unachieved ambitions is to do the (lady facing man, bends down and puts her arms through her legs and does a backwards somersault in the air.) move. Whenever I have seen this done I have thought it too artificial, lacking flow. My idea was to do the (locked back-to-back, going down) move twice, the second time releasing the lady at the bottom.She stays low and the man jumps back over her legs astride. As she rises she has her arms through her legs and we do the somersaulty thing. I think that that would add flow and extra WOW! to the move.

Another arial ambition of mine that will probably now never be realised with all of my partners that I believe deserve it is my "salute to a real dancer" move.

This is a lean, except that the lady is upside down, and I kiss her once on each foot. I have only managed the opportunity to do this with three partners, and have the ambition to add several others to the list.

StokeBloke
17th-April-2007, 02:25 PM
Any official word from Ceroc HQ yet?

There was a prominent sign stating that lifts were no longer permitted at the venue last night. I must admit that a big bold notice saying you can't dance certain moves hit me a little harder than I had anticipated. Seeing that notice glaring down accusingly at me in big ugly black and white text like a sentinel of oppression sinking its twin fangs of autocracy and suppression into my creativity and sucking the freedom and living joy out of it, left me feeling sick to the pit of my stomach :tears:

killingtime
17th-April-2007, 03:47 PM
Never having experienced it, I assume that there is a similar adrenalin rush for a follower in being swept off ones feet or finding onseself upside down.

I've never lead an aerial but I have followed one and I enjoyed it. I got that adrenalin rush. I have no experience of doing aerials but I trusted the lead and know that he is able to assess his own strength and ability to execute the move. He also informed me so I could decline if I wanted to.

I didn't see any issues with doing the move but then I felt we had the space plus control. If people are just doing drops or aerials because they saw someone else do it (or they are just testing their new aerial on some follower they haven't even said anything but "would you like a dance" to) then I feel that needs to be addressed. Maybe a blanket ban is the way to go but I think if aerials are people's bag and they can execute them in a "safe" fashion (as safely as unsafe things can be done) then I'd be happy too.

I don't see a huge amount of aerials at Edinburgh so I haven't really thought it a problem.

bigdjiver
17th-April-2007, 03:58 PM
Any official word from Ceroc HQ yet?


There was a prominent sign stating that lifts were no longer permitted at the venue last night. I must admit that a big bold notice saying you can't dance certain moves hit me a little harder than I had anticipated. Seeing that notice glaring down accusingly at me in big ugly black and white text like a sentinel of oppression sinking its twin fangs of autocracy and suppression into my creativity and sucking the freedom and living joy out of it, left me feeling sick to the pit of my stomach :tears:That is a complete over-reaction, which, alas, I share.:tears:

Twirlie Bird
17th-April-2007, 05:44 PM
It went wrong because he assumed that as both dancers were practiced in the move, that it would have been easily achievable.:(

Ooopps. Mistake number one. :sick: Is this something that is thought by many people I wonder? :confused: Just like some dancers deeply connect and others find the connection hard this would be even more so where more dangerous moves were involved.


The lesson is surely never do an aerial move without the expressed consent from the other party and with plenty of warning:really:

Yes I agree with this. I have done aerials with three people. One is my regular dance partner and even he warns me when an aerial is coming. The other two dancers are competent dancers who I trust completely. :respect: They both have my permission to do these moves. They know how much I love them but both of them ALWAYS warn me beforehand. I need to be warned anyway as I can then prepare for it and hopefully this helps the move to work well.


I was informed by a senior member of the Ceroc H Q team that Arials have always been disallowed across the Ceroc spectrum on class nights . I was advised that this extends to all venues. Apparently If Venues allow arials they are doing so at thier own risk.:(

So is this still the case or is it now a total ban? :confused:


The big issue for me here is that almost exclusively if an arial goes wrong its likely to be the follower that suffers the injury, :(

True again. This is why aerials should only be done with competent people. There is one particular dancer who is seriously dangerous on the dance floor. He is a big bloke and he takes all the smaller ladies on the floor and literally throws them around without any warning. :angry: My husband has actually banned me from dancing with him. People like him should be banned from the venues. However I shouldn't be banned from doing aerials safely.


personally I would hate to be in that mans position. It could happen as I do arial moves.:sick:

You do them safely though. Big difference. :worthy:


Any follower would hate to be in the victims position thats for sure.:sick: :sick:

Absolutely. Please don't think I am taking anything away from this horrific incident, I am not. However if I choose to do something dangerous then I am aware of the consequences. If I allow myself to be thrown into the air or tipped upside down I know the dangers. That is an informed decision that I am making. I don't appreciate somebody telling me that I can't do it because I may get hurt.:mad:


You have been warned.:devil:

Yes I have and I still want to do it. It thrills me. It excites me and I LOVE it.:blush:

Twirlie Bird
17th-April-2007, 05:47 PM
Numpties are dangerous. Not aerials. Maybe if Ceroc banned all numpties, instead....:D :rolleyes:

What a great idea :whistle:


I'm interested that Ceroc (Scotland) has no insurance issues yet other Ceroc franchisees do.:eek:

Why is this? Is Ceroc Scotland separate and not under the same guidelines? :confused:

Twirlie Bird
17th-April-2007, 05:52 PM
Time for a new logo methinks ... ?

No announcement at my class last night, so I asked the teacher about it. He said it was still in the pipeline, but not yet in force.

This is really confusing. :confused: At my venue there was a big sign up stating NO AERIALS. Surely this either is or isn't the new rule? Not sure why some venues are saying no, others yes and others are not sure. Is it just poor communication?:confused:

DavidY
17th-April-2007, 06:03 PM
Time for a new logo methinks ... ?:worthy: :rofl:

2Tone
17th-April-2007, 06:19 PM
There was no mention of an Aerials ban where I was dancing last Night:confused:

So I made The Most of The Evening :D :D :D and got in as much practice as I could.

Speaking to other dancers from the surronding Area none of them had heard of Any Ban :confused: :confused: some reackon its just Hearsay

And as far as I'm aware My Local Venues are not banning the moves.
As I crew for a Ceroc Franchisee I thought I might of Heard Something More Offical by Now?!?!?!

So I will continue with my Dangerous ways Untill told otherwise:devil:

Keefy
17th-April-2007, 06:49 PM
There was no mention of an Aerials ban where I was dancing last Night:confused: Has anybody seen this at any venue other than a Ceroc Metro venue? It is clearly documented and was announced at the venue last Thursday, although there is nothing on their web site. There is also nothing on the Ceroc UK web site that I can find.

Is this a case of just one operator taking unilateral action?

Cruella
17th-April-2007, 06:56 PM
Has anybody seen this at any venue other than a Ceroc Metro venue? It is clearly documented and was announced at the venue last Thursday, although there is nothing on their web site. There is also nothing on the Ceroc UK web site that I can find.

Is this a case of just one operator taking unilateral action?

Twirlie Bird has said that she has seen it at her local venue. As she's from Stoke on Trent, i'm presuming it's not a Ceroc Metro venue. :rolleyes:

StokeBloke
17th-April-2007, 11:40 PM
Twirlie Bird has said that she has seen it at her local venue. As she's from Stoke on Trent, i'm presuming it's not a Ceroc Metro venue. :rolleyes:
Last night and tonight the ban was in place in Ceroc Midlands venues :(

Twirlie Bird
17th-April-2007, 11:44 PM
Has anybody seen this at any venue other than a Ceroc Metro venue?



I have now seen it at 2 venues.Both of these were Ceroc Midlands :confused:

Frankie_4711
18th-April-2007, 06:52 AM
Will be interesting to see what happens tonight - our teacher is on long-term loan from Ceroc Metro, so we may get a different story from Monday ...

Y o Y o Y
18th-April-2007, 07:02 AM
Very worrying, and more than slightly saddening.

In NZ we don't have (yet) the public/private liablity situation that the UK "enjoys". But trends always start somewhere..

We can still enjoy aerials (sp) here, although we do so with the knowledge that we (leaders) are responsible for not only our follower but also everyone in the area around us who could possibly be affected by "Fallout".

It would be a pity if the expression that is contained in aerials was denied us, as part of our vocabulary of dance. There is a need for the moment when my partner is one with the air, and I can give her my strength to let her know that to me she is always as light as the music.

Nuff mystical stuff. Thanks for all your thoughts and perspective.

ducasi
18th-April-2007, 08:06 AM
I've had it confirmed to me that this is a UK-wide ban, and that it will be coming to Scottish Ceroc venues soon.

I'm in general agreement with most people here, that it's a shame for the sensible dancers who are careful when they are doing these moves, but at the same time I'm glad that the ban will stop reckless folks doing ill-advised moves on inexperienced dancers.


Time for a new logo methinks ... ?
:yeah:

CJ
18th-April-2007, 08:22 AM
I'm glad that the ban will stop reckless folks doing ill-advised moves on inexperienced dancers.

This was never good to see, Ducasi. It just seems a real hammer to crack a nut approach.
(again?!?)
Could teachers/VMs not do that??

Spin dryer
18th-April-2007, 08:29 AM
So how is aerial defined then? It's not good enough to say that you can't do any move where both feet leave the floor. On that basis, you wouldn't be able to do, for example, a basic charleston move or a fast pivot spin, where I'll sometimes lift the woman a little. Even more absurdly, you wouldn't even be able to do a triple step!

ducasi
18th-April-2007, 08:43 AM
This was never good to see, Ducasi. It just seems a real hammer to crack a nut approach.
(again?!?)
Could teachers/VMs not do that??
I agree, but the teacher's opinion on what constitutes reckless may be out of tune with some dancers. It then becomes rather subjective.

Easier to ban them all... ;)

killingtime
18th-April-2007, 12:44 PM
Time for a new logo methinks ... ?

Ah you thinking something like a badly lead drop?

StokeBloke
18th-April-2007, 02:27 PM
Fed up with rumour, speculation and second-hand information, I just phoned Ceroc (020 8969 4401) and spoke with a very polite guy. He told me that there has been no recent change of policy with regard to aerials, and whilst Ceroc doesn't encourage them, such bans are solely at the discretion of the franchisee or venue managers.

So, it would seem that there is nothing to worry about, and if you find yourself in a venue that bans aerials you can look around for another Ceroc venue that doesn't. Maybe we could start a list here of venues displaying ban notices so dancers can make an informed choice about their nights out.

firefly
18th-April-2007, 02:35 PM
Fed up with rumour, speculation and second-hand information, I just phoned Ceroc (020 8969 4401) and spoke with a very polite guy. He told me that there has been no recent change of policy with regard to aerials, and whilst Ceroc doesn't encourage them, such bans are solely at the discretion of the franchisee or venue managers.



Need to spread some rep around first, but I'm impressed at someone actually taking the initative as opposed to continuing to perpetuate rumour and speculation.

*Although that is of course what the Forum does best* :wink: {ducks and runs for cover}

Mac
18th-April-2007, 02:38 PM
So, it would seem that there is nothing to worry about, and if you find yourself in a venue that bans aerials you can look around for another Ceroc venue that doesn't. Maybe we could start a list here of venues displaying ban notices so dancers can make an informed choice about their nights out.[/quote]

Good Idea !!:respect: I'll kick off
Ceroc Metro @ Stevenage, St Albans, Cheshunt, Finchley. (May be more)

CJ
18th-April-2007, 02:39 PM
I've had it confirmed to me that this is a UK-wide ban, and that it will be coming to Scottish Ceroc venues soon.


Fed up with rumour, speculation and second-hand information, I just phoned Ceroc (020 8969 4401) and spoke with a very polite guy. He told me that there has been no recent change of policy with regard to aerials, and whilst Ceroc doesn't encourage them, such bans are solely at the discretion of the franchisee or venue managers.

So, it would seem that there is nothing to worry about, and if you find yourself in a venue that bans aerials you can look around for another Ceroc venue that doesn't. Maybe we could start a list here of venues displaying ban notices so dancers can make an informed choice about their nights out.

:confused: :confused:

killingtime
18th-April-2007, 03:10 PM
:confused: :confused:

Humm... I wasn't at Ceroc last night (in Edinburgh) but I was informed by someone who taxies there that aerials will be banned. Sounds like it is certainly going to be an imposed thing for Scotland.

Just thought I'd add to the confusion :D.

Franck
18th-April-2007, 03:19 PM
Humm... I wasn't at Ceroc last night (in Edinburgh) but I was informed by someone who taxies there that aerials will be banned. Sounds like it is certainly going to be an imposed thing for Scotland.Hi,

I can confirm that all Ceroc venues in the UK will shortly be enforcing a ban on aerials.
The reason some of you are getting conflicting information is that the changes are not yet fully implemented. I still haven't communicated with all my teachers and crew yet as I'm working on a suitable procedure for enforcement of the new rule.

CJ
18th-April-2007, 03:25 PM
Thanks, Franck.

Are you able to tell us what an aerial is?

Am not being facetious, am sure it's a question on many lips...

Franck
18th-April-2007, 03:31 PM
Are you able to tell us what an aerial is?The reason I haven't implemented the new rule is that I want to give clear guidelines to all Ceroc Crew members (Venue Managers, Teachers, Taxi-dancers, etc.) so I'm working (in consultation with HQ, other franchisees, teachers, etc.) on workable definitions and a simple procedure to follow to make the managers / teachers' jobs easier.

Will
18th-April-2007, 03:43 PM
Thanks, Franck.

Are you able to tell us what an aerial is?

Am not being facetious, am sure it's a question on many lips...

http://www.mrmdvd.com/catalog/images/wbaerial.jpg

And before you start accusing Ceroc for going over the top with this policy, just remember what happened to Rod Hull.....

robd
18th-April-2007, 03:57 PM
I knew there was a strong link between aerials and signals but thanks to Will for pointing me in the right direction.

StokeBloke
18th-April-2007, 04:41 PM
Ah you thinking something like a badly lead drop?
Inspired! Although maybe with the correct equipment the logo could stay; what do you think?

killingtime
18th-April-2007, 04:48 PM
Inspired! Although maybe with the correct equipment the logo could stay; what do you think?

:rofl:

I'm tempted to try and template that for a T-shirt.

pmjd
18th-April-2007, 05:24 PM
Time for a new logo methinks ... ?
:yeah: What will Ceroc's new logo be???


...so I'm working (in consultation with HQ, other franchisees, teachers, etc.) on workable definitions and a simple procedure to follow to make the managers / teachers' jobs easier.
Good luck:flower: as I get the feeling that will be quite a task.


....at the same time I'm glad that the ban will stop reckless folks doing ill-advised moves on inexperienced dancers.
You'll NEVER stop that, idiots will be idiots. Like the dancer in Glasgow whose only warning was telling my sister (who'd only been dancing a few weeks) not to scream, than proceeded to grab her by the waist and flip her round 360 degrees. No warning of what he was intending to do or due consideration to ASK in the first place.

LMC
18th-April-2007, 05:28 PM
On a social dance floor, it is my opinion that:

a) the follower's feet should never be above the level of the leader's knees (and if one is, then the other foot should be on the floor) For those who claim to be competent. Maybe you are. I would still be fairly pissed off if my incompetent partner ran me into the heels of the couple next to us where a competent and willing follower who had, of course, signed a disclaimer was being lifted by their competent partner. It's bad enough having your feet trodden on, a heel in the stomach or head would really ruin your evening.

b) the follower's head should never be below the level of the leader's knees. I was most annoyed to be deep-dropped at Storm on a busy dance floor - without my consent. I "had" my own weight as far as possible with that particular move. My partner at the time was evidently capable, but I was not very happy at the number of feet flying round inches from my head.

Just like driving: you have to watch out for the other idiots out there.

If not doing aerials ruins your enjoyment of dancing then take up sky-diving.

StokeBloke
18th-April-2007, 05:58 PM
On a social dance floor, it is my opinion that:

a) the follower's feet should never be above the level of the leader's knees (and if one is, then the other foot should be on the floor) For those who claim to be competent. Maybe you are. I would still be fairly pissed off if my incompetent partner ran me into the heels of the couple next to us where a competent and willing follower who had, of course, signed a disclaimer was being lifted by their competent partner. It's bad enough having your feet trodden on, a heel in the stomach or head would really ruin your evening.

b) the follower's head should never be below the level of the leader's knees. I was most annoyed to be deep-dropped at Storm on a busy dance floor - without my consent. I "had" my own weight as far as possible with that particular move. My partner at the time was evidently capable, but I was not very happy at the number of feet flying round inches from my head.

Just like driving: you have to watch out for the other idiots out there.

If not doing aerials ruins your enjoyment of dancing then take up sky-diving.
Again we are into isolated incidents caused by inconsiderate and/or dangerous dancers. THIS is what needs to be addressed IMHO, and the way to do this is not by imposing sweeping bans that will punish considerate dancers for the actions of 1% of those involved. It's a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

I have no problem whatsoever with imposing sanctions on the type of dancers you have outlined. But I feel it is grossly unfair if those sanctions diminish the enjoyment of the considerate and respectful dancers in the scene.

A while ago I was elbowed in the eye by a lady doing a spin in the intermediate class. Boy that hurt! Maybe we should ban spins. I was also trodden on recently, that hurt too. Let's ban shoes too. I was also kicked in the leg last month by a beginner... let's ban beginners as well. My forearm was scratched by a ladies sharp fingernail too not that long ago... let's measure and trim nails at the door - or issue gloves. Let's all dress in those inflatable sumo suits and slowly walk around safely inside a padded room to soft music, in case a loud drum or cymbal scares someone. OK it won't be as much of a rush as say..... skydiving, but at least it will be safe.

Caz
18th-April-2007, 06:06 PM
A while ago I was elbowed in the eye by a lady doing a spin in the intermediate class. Boy that hurt! Maybe we should ban spins. I was also trodden on recently, that hurt too. Let's ban shoes too. I was also kicked in the leg last month by a beginner... let's ban beginners as well. My forearm was scratched by a ladies sharp fingernail too not that long ago... let's measure and trim nails at the door - or issue gloves. Let's all dress in those inflatable sumo suits and slowly walk around safely inside a padded room to soft music, in case a loud drum or cymbal scares someone. OK it won't be as much of a rush as say..... skydiving, but at least it will be safe.

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

2Tone
18th-April-2007, 06:26 PM
:rofl:

I'm tempted to try and template that for a T-shirt.


If you do I'll have One.!!!!!:D

JiveLad
18th-April-2007, 06:27 PM
A while ago I was elbowed in the eye by a lady doing a spin in the intermediate class. Boy that hurt! Maybe we should ban spins. I was also trodden on recently, that hurt too. Let's ban shoes too. I was also kicked in the leg last month by a beginner... let's ban beginners as well. My forearm was scratched by a ladies sharp fingernail too not that long ago... let's measure and trim nails at the door - or issue gloves. Let's all dress in those inflatable sumo suits and slowly walk around safely inside a padded room to soft music, in case a loud drum or cymbal scares someone. OK it won't be as much of a rush as say..... skydiving, but at least it will be safe.

Crikey - you have been in the wars! Not sure I want to go dancing in the Midlands if that's what it's like! :what: Down here I think someone trod on my little toe back in late August last year; apart from that it's been fine - except for being told off for my fingernails on 2 occasions (more for 'hardness' than length though).

Trouble
18th-April-2007, 06:30 PM
Crikey - you have been in the wars! Not sure I want to go dancing in the Midlands if that's what it's like! :what: Down here I think someone trod on my little toe back in late August last year; apart from that it's been fine - except for being told off for my fingernails on 2 occasions (more for 'hardness' than length though).

your nipples nearly had my eye out on one occassion. :D

Gus
18th-April-2007, 09:10 PM
The independent operators must be rubbing their hands together with glee at Ceroc's decision on dumbing down dancing at their venues. Dumbing down?????? Just curious ... how long have you been dancing? I've been running clubs for 8 years ... for Ceroc, Blitz and on my own .... and aerials have ALWAYS been banned!!

I can do aerials myself (trained by Andy & Rena, Paul Tavanasau), have paid attention to the sage words form the likes of Dave and Lilly and I actualy like aerials ... BUT NOT ON A CLUB NIGHT. Sorry ... but see absolutely no correlation between aerials and dancing expertise.

StokeBloke
18th-April-2007, 10:08 PM
Dumbing down?????? Just curious ... how long have you been dancing? I've been running clubs for 8 years ... for Ceroc, Blitz and on my own ....
Well in that case my opinion must be worthless then. Sorry to wake you Gus :rolleyes:


and aerials have ALWAYS been banned!!

Odd that's not what Alex said earlier when I phoned - I wonder how long he's been dancing, as that seems to be your universal yard stick of knowledge. If it was over eight years than maybe he's right. I wonder how I could find that out :D :D :D

Sorry ... but see absolutely no correlation between aerials and dancing expertise.
That comment makes about as much sense as the rest of your post Gus - top job on the consistency front there fella :wink:

JiveLad
18th-April-2007, 10:11 PM
your nipples nearly had my eye out on one occassion. :D

Yes - it must have been the discomposure of being confronted by a pair of Weapons of Mass Destruction

:hug:

What were you doing down there looking at them so closely anyway? :na:

Gus
18th-April-2007, 10:29 PM
Well in that case my opinion must be worthless then. Sorry to wake you Gus :rolleyes: Not what I said. I was questioning the basis of your comments. Poor sarcasm is no replacement for logic


Odd that's not what Alex said earlier when I phoned I was referring to my venues.


That comment makes about as much sense as the rest of your post Gus - top job on the consistency front there fella :wink:Nice to see you're not letting logic affect your commentary.:flower: Your original comments semeed tro be based on the premise that not allowing aerials was compromising dancers abillity to express themselves.

The common logic for many years has been that aerials at club nights is a BAD thing and they have little place in modern jive dancing (as opposed to Lindhop or performance work etc). This view has been expressed by people regarded as experts in the field (Andy & Rena, Dave & Lily, Paul T). Would be interested in how you think your expertise stacks up against theirs?

MartinHarper
18th-April-2007, 10:53 PM
On a social dance floor, it is my opinion that:

a) the follower's feet should never be above the level of the leader's knees
b) the follower's head should never be below the level of the leader's knees.

Sounds good. I'd probably say something like:
a) A dancer's head should always be above their own center of gravity, such that if they end up smacking into the floor, they don't do so head-first.
b) A dancer's head should always be above the level of the highest foot on the surrounding dance floor, such that they don't get kicked in the head.
c) Corollary: a dancer's foot should always be below the level of the lowest head on the surrounding dance floor, such that they don't kick someone in the head.

Frankie_4711
19th-April-2007, 08:40 AM
Crikey - you have been in the wars! Not sure I want to go dancing in the Midlands if that's what it's like! :what: Down here I think someone trod on my little toe back in late August last year; apart from that it's been fine - except for being told off for my fingernails on 2 occasions (more for 'hardness' than length though).

I'm coming to St Albans!

Virtually ever time I go dancing I come away with some bruise or other (usually have no idea how it got there!) or am whacked or damaged in some way.

No notice or announcement about the arials ban last night, so spoke to the teacher ... who knew didn't have a clue what I was talking about!!!!!:confused:

CJ
19th-April-2007, 09:24 AM
... (trained by Andy & Rena, Paul Tavanasau) ... Dave and Lilly.... Sorry ... but see absolutely no correlation between aerials and dancing expertise.

Classic, Gus, classic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl: :rofl:

So, you'll be incorporating them into your next beginners' class then?!?:flower:

There have been many arguments over the piece, and have always strayed away from major aerials on a social floor...
My point still stands. Aerials don't cause injury.
Inappropriate aerials (and numpties) cause injury.
Aerials done badly cause injury.

It just depends on what is defined as an aerial.... Am curious to see, and I think Franck is taking a sensible approach. It needs to be clear, easily understood and easily implemented.

(would be just like me to get banned for life for a trile step!!!!!!!!!!:rofl: )

JiveLad
19th-April-2007, 09:29 AM
I'm coming to St Albans!

Virtually ever time I go dancing I come away with some bruise or other (usually have no idea how it got there!) or am whacked or damaged in some way.



Yes - we are so genteel down here.

---- TOTALLY OFF THREAD:

Based on my experience over the last 12 months, of the venues I go to, my league table of 'Banging and Bruising' goes like this (top means least likely to get banged) ;)

1. St. Albans
=2. Hatfield
=2. Luton
4. Watford
5. Chesham
6. Cheshunt
7. Ashtons
8. Finchley

Double Trouble
19th-April-2007, 09:34 AM
(top means least likely to get banged) ;)

1. St. Albans
=2. Hatfield
=2. Luton
4. Watford
5. Chesham
6. Cheshunt
7. Ashtons
8. Finchley

So much scope for a Carry On Film joke there, but I left my smutty head at home today.

Just all me Wurzle.:rofl:

Gav
19th-April-2007, 09:54 AM
6. Cheshunt
7. Ashtons
8. Finchley

The only reason Cheshunt's not at the top of the list is because the zimmer frames get in the way from time to time and the old folk do bruise very easily. :na:


I left my smutty head at home today.

Yeah right! :rolleyes: :devil:

Double Trouble
19th-April-2007, 10:02 AM
The only reason Cheshunt's not at the top of the list is because the zimmer frames get in the way from time to time and the old folk do bruise very easily. :na:

You can mock, dear, but you are coming to Cheshunt with me on Friday so get your laughing gear around that....!

Think of the positives. The average age at Cheshunt is 164, so you will only fall in to the middle aged catagory.:D

Incidentally, now the aerials have been banned at Cheshunt, does that mean I can make a fuss if the numpties start throwing themselves around again?

LMC
19th-April-2007, 11:20 AM
DT - go for it :thumbs up: (I think I know who you mean and I've complained about them at Cheshunt - quite some time ago)


My point still stands. Aerials don't cause injury.
Inappropriate aerials (and numpties) cause injury.
Aerials done badly cause injury.
:yeah:

And my point still stands that on a social dance floor, it's doesn't matter how competent you are, one or both of one or more of the surrounding couples may not be.

Hell, my back was hurt (no more drops for me that weekender) when an extremely drunk couple fell on me while I was in a comb on a very busy floor. Given sufficient warning, my partner would have led me out of the way - his floorcraft was excellent. Unfortunately, he didn't have time. I dread to think how bad that injury would have been if my back had been under tension :(

It is a shame that a very few idiots have spoiled it for everyone else. Of course, you could have a licence to perform aerials if you are competent, have signed a disclaimer and there is sufficient space. Better make it a permanent tattoo to avoid a black market in licences. Then it would be easy to ban anyone who performs aerials without abiding by the licence terms and conditions or without a licence.

Seriously, sad though it is, the blanket ban is the only viable solution. Otherwise, sooner or later someone will get killed. It has happened (http://golgi.ana.ed.ac.uk/Swing/warning.html). Even one is too many.

Double Trouble
19th-April-2007, 11:25 AM
Otherwise, sooner or later someone will get killed. It has happened (http://golgi.ana.ed.ac.uk/Swing/warning.html). Even one is too many.

Top marks to LMC for finding an actual death related to Aerials.:rofl:

If only we could teach the Cheshunt pair that move...all my troubles would be over.:clap:

ducasi
19th-April-2007, 12:31 PM
My point still stands. Aerials don't cause injury.
Inappropriate aerials (and numpties) cause injury.
Aerials done badly cause injury.
This is the same argument as the gun lobby – but most people (at least in this country) seem to think it's better to ban guns, and then go after people who use them illegally...

Sure it's people who kill or injure people, not the aerials or the guns, but without either it makes the likelihood of death/injury much lower, and the likely injury from numpties hopefully less serious.

Ultimately it's easier to say "no aerials" than "no numpties" – we all have our numpty moments.

Double Trouble
19th-April-2007, 12:36 PM
Ultimately it's easier to say "no aerials" than "no numpties" – we all have our numpty moments.

Exactly....! You wouldn't give a loaded gun to a four year old, so why allow numpties who think they can do great aerials free range in a dance venue?

Mind you...I do like the idea of a 'No more Numpties' campaign.:D

Gav
19th-April-2007, 12:39 PM
we all have our numpty moments.

Speak for yourself :na: :whistle:


Mind you...I do like the idea of a 'No more Numpties' campaign.:D

Ceroc would go bust within hours. :D :devil:

straycat
19th-April-2007, 01:29 PM
But what is never reported is that speculative shotgun-up-a-tree actions from the no win no fee parasites hardly ever actually result in anything. As for "being sued" I very much doubt it, that will be the usual misreporting. What has probably happened is that the speculative letter inviting an out-of-court settlement has gone out from the parasites, any resistance and the case will be dropped.


Wonder if the case in question was this one (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17929155/)? Says nothing about any venue organiser... but then it looks like he was also the culprit.

If it's the same one, assuming it's being fairly reported (haha) it sounds like she's got a good case... but an office party is a far cry from an MJ venue. Allegedly.

Gadget
19th-April-2007, 01:40 PM
Is this ban going to just be in classes, or all Ceroc(tm) organised partys and events?

If so, then where will they be taught? Isn't not teaching them more dangerous?

StokeBloke
19th-April-2007, 03:57 PM
Isn't not teaching them more dangerous?
Yes :confused:

straycat
19th-April-2007, 04:20 PM
If so, then where will they be taught? Isn't not teaching them more dangerous?
Nope.

bigdjiver
19th-April-2007, 05:21 PM
...
And my point still stands that on a social dance floor, it's doesn't matter how competent you are, one or both of one or more of the surrounding couples may not be...To do arials safely there are no surroundingcouples, at least not in the vicinity. I usually go into a quiet corner, (or even off the dance floor at Wellingborough freestyles.) Being in a corner one can see any danger approaching. I check out the dancers in the vicinity for floorcraft before I start. In all my years of dancing I have only had one very minor contact with another couple whilst doing an ariail. That was because of a bit of unforseen physics of rotating bodies, I reported the matter on this forum as a warning to others. (I pulled my partners shoulders away from an approaching couple, and her feet swang out as a result.) I have increased my clearance zone as a result, and more recently, removed that move from my repetoire when a lady said it stressed her back.


... Seriously, sad though it is, the blanket ban is the only viable solution. Otherwise, sooner or later someone will get killed. It has happened (http://golgi.ana.ed.ac.uk/Swing/warning.html) Even one is too many. At least one person has died at Ceroc. It was the husband of one of my arials partners a few years back, and it was whilst doing normal social dancing.

Trousers
19th-April-2007, 07:06 PM
BahHumbug!

Not picking on you inparticular here Big and I will admit you are a big chap probably amply capable of lifting most of the women you dance with off the floor but I cringe when I see you or any other Jiver hoiking the girls about off the floor.

I've seen Numpties who have danced for 6 weeks (there definately not picking on you now BIG) and have seen others who should have known better in my book performing air steps and these said numpties start trying to copy the moves with beginner ladies who have sometimes been less than 6 weekers.
Because they think it's cool!



Any Air Step should be practiced at first with spotters. Performing the air step should only be done once the people can do it like the first move (in their sleep and eyes closed) This sort of removes the possibility of this being a social move - Air Steps should only be performance surely?

As to there is a safe way to do an Air Step
Well this time BIG I really don't think your opinion is right here.

With anyone else on the floor you have the possibility of accidents, Without them the floor surface could be suspect without your knowlege. Possibilities of failure abound. There is NO safe way to do an air step.




Here's a test then. . .

Imagine it's a job.
Write the Risk assessment to do lets say a Washing Machine on a club night.

There must be some HSE people in here that could validate them.
If the Pro Air Step brigade can write a suitable RA then Ceroc ought not ban the moves.

If they can't Ceroc are doing the right thing.

ducasi
19th-April-2007, 09:01 PM
I've added a poll to this thread. Please vote. :)

straycat
20th-April-2007, 12:06 AM
I've added a poll to this thread. Please vote. :)
Should we not have taken a vote on that first?

LittleSal
20th-April-2007, 12:22 AM
Classic, Gus, classic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rofl: :rofl:

So, you'll be incorporating them into your next beginners' class then?!?

There have been many arguments over the piece, and have always strayed away from major aerials on a social floor...
My point still stands. Aerials don't cause injury.
Inappropriate aerials (and numpties) cause injury.
Aerials done badly cause injury.

It just depends on what is defined as an aerial.... Am curious to see, and I think Franck is taking a sensible approach. It needs to be clear, easily understood and easily implemented.

(would be just like me to get banned for life for a trile step!!!!!!!!!!:rofl: )

I have to agree with CJ that Aerials don't cause injury :yeah: if done well and with someone that you trust to do them.,Numpties or whatever are the ones who cause the problems and people not being alert to other dancers on the floor. Good floorcraft in dancing is looking out for others so as not to injure anyone.I have been dancing for many years and have been taught to do and performed aerial moves without injury ,but I have been injured by dancers doing simple moves and not looking where they are going and standing on you ,hitting you, or spearing you with stilleto heels.All of these have happened to me.

I think it is sad that we need to go down the road of all these regulations etc,surely people should be able to take responsibility for their own safety and that of others on the dancefloor!:flower: :flower:

Trousers
20th-April-2007, 12:43 AM
. . . . {YehritereallyibelieveuhonestyguvSnip}
surely people should be able to take responsibility for their own safety and that of others on the dancefloor!:flower: :flower:
{endofsnipcoughingandsputtering}

What


sorry i meant WHAT?



You can't dance with out being stomped on but people can take responsibility for others on the dance floor


Hey look there thats it . . . . it's flying. . . . .and it's a pig!

i can't be arsed to argue tonight it's late but that is like saying it's 'not gun's that kill!'

bigdjiver
20th-April-2007, 12:54 AM
BahHumbug!

Not picking on you inparticular here Big and I will admit you are a big chap probably amply capable of lifting most of the women you dance with off the floor but I cringe when I see you or any other Jiver hoiking the girls about off the floor.

I've seen Numpties who have danced for 6 weeks (there definately not picking on you now BIG) and have seen others who should have known better in my book performing air steps and these said numpties start trying to copy the moves with beginner ladies who have sometimes been less than 6 weekers.
Because they think it's cool!

Any Air Step should be practiced at first with spotters. Performing the air step should only be done once the people can do it like the first move (in their sleep and eyes closed) This sort of removes the possibility of this being a social move - Air Steps should only be performance surely?I have been taught the astride jump, in the intermediate class. (The lady jumps in the air, legs astride, whilst the man supports her from the hips from behind.) This is an air step. When a new partner tells me that she does not do airsteps I have been known to respond "This is jive, there has to be at least one airstep in the dance." While the poor worried thing is trying to work out how she will respond to this, I turn my back to her, put her hands on my hips, and do an astride jump. This is also an airstep. I have never once thought that this move, or my feeble jest was any more dangerous than normal.



As to there is a safe way to do an Air Step
Well this time BIG I really don't think your opinion is right here.

With anyone else on the floor you have the possibility of accidents,
When I last recounted the story of how two parties of geophysicists had managed a collision between their jeeps in the middle of the Saudi desert, the listener responded with a story of how 6 jeeps had managed to collide in the middle of the Salibury Plain. (A lady soldier showing a bit of leg was involved ...) I suggest that one jeep at a time in the Saudi desert or on Salisbury plain may not be an appropriate reaction to these events.


. to Without them the floor surface could be suspect without your knowlege. I was in a class at Bromley Great Hall when the Hip-Hop was taught. A very young thing worried about my age and inexperience at ceroc asked me if I was alright to do the move, I managed to grunt a positive response, only for my foot to catch in the door track that divided the floor, and we both ended on the floor, fortunately in gradual stages, and very gently. :blush: I have one other "meet the floor" incident since, also gradual and gentle, with another arial where I was also under the lady to break her fall.

There is an element of danger, but that is accompanied by a sense of adventure, and achievement. It is why people do sports like snowboarding, water skiing, Ice skating, bungee jumping, skydiving etc.


Possibilities of failure abound. There is NO safe way to do an air step. :yeah:



Here's a test then. . .

Imagine it's a job.
Write the Risk assessment to do lets say a Washing Machine on a club night.

There must be some HSE people in here that could validate them.
If the Pro Air Step brigade can write a suitable RA then Ceroc ought not ban the moves.

If they can't Ceroc are doing the right thing.
What's a washing machine :confused: I have never had the ambition for my partner to be less dirty by the end of the dance.

The airsteps I commonly do are:
Astride jump (leading to a through-the-legs, which I consider far more dangerous)
Basket Lean on left hip, then raising my left foot sideways up to about 18*. (1 fall. I amended my techique so it will not fail that way again.)
What Nikki Haslam calls "The Grapevine", except, being 6'3" I lift the lady off the floor.
What I call the "Whirl-around", where I pick up the lady by her shoulder and under her knees, and spin her around.
With a few select partners:
The "Half Moon" (Similar to Ceroc Logo, except that the ladies legs are together.)
"Pecking" as seen in the Nick Nolte film "Cannery Row".

I did 4 of those tonight, multiple times. The ban, or news of it, has not reached the Addison Centre yet.:clap:

bigdjiver
20th-April-2007, 01:01 AM
Driving to a venue involves risk, even if ones driving is perfect, and ones car is in perfect order.

By giving someone a lift you are putting them in danger. Perhaps one should persuade them to stay at home instead.

Since few people have cars in perfect order, or are perfect drivers, those drivers are putting others at risk. Perhaps all drivers should stay home.

bigdjiver
20th-April-2007, 08:54 AM
Apologies, but it is me again. All in my lay, inexpert opinion.

The Nitty-Gritty.

I was once told, not by a lawyer, that by clearing the snow from outside my house I was putting myself at risk of legal action. Basically If someone slipped and fell in God's snow I was not my fault, but if they slipped and fell in my badly cleared snow I was responsible.

I have seen a teacher putting Talc on a floor, and wondered what would be the legal position if there were an accident afterwards. It seemed to me that the venue could not be continuously examining the floor for loose floor tiles, bits of chewing gum or jewellry being dropped, or drink spillages, or other hazards. It had to be down to the dancers to ensure that the piece of floor that they were dancing on was safe, and that they did not make it unsafe, and that the organiser should make sure that the dancers knew that they do not have the resources to ensure that every bit of floor is safe to dance on all through the evening.

Similarly the venue does not have the resources to ensure that every dancer is physically or mentally competent, and that it was down to every dancer to dance safely, and to be aare of dangerous situations around them.

However well meant any sort of rule designed to increase safety might be, once the venue assumes responsibility for policing it and infraction might put the organisation at greater legal risk.

If the venue fails to look out for people doing arials, or fails to act, are they automatically liable for bad dancing?

A franchise bans a dancer for dangerous arials. They are involved in an accident at another venue later on. Were the organisation negligent because its computer system had not updated that dancers status in time? Or that not all venues use the computer system every time?

What if it is at the franchise next door? Is not having a national computer system their fault?

What if the banned dancer uses another card another night with different crew on duty, and the database has failed to link the two membership cards to the same dancer?

If Ceroc is going to assume responsibility for dancers actions, can my partner that tried a double spin at the teachers behest during a class, and fell heavily sue?

I have seen more accidents from multiple spins than I have from arials. Any faller could knock over others. Any fall could be fatal. Should double spins be banned? With some ladies wearing stilleto heels the risk inreases, should those be banned?

Whilst Ceroc should do everything it can to ensure dancers safety I do not think that it can be expected to cover all risks, and, at the end of the day, everybody on the dance floor has to be responsible for their own actions, and for looking out for their own safety. If the organisation makes rules then it has to be responsible for policing them effectively.

straycat
20th-April-2007, 10:51 AM
I was once told, not by a lawyer, that by clearing the snow from outside my house I was putting myself at risk of legal action. Basically If someone slipped and fell in God's snow I was not my fault, but if they slipped and fell in my badly cleared snow I was responsible.


Interesting viewpoint, and yes, today's increasingly litigation-happy society does result in ridiculous pieces of advice like this, but does that make it right? Or safer for the people walking past your house? Or was he simply making a diplomatic point about your snow-clearing skills? :devil:

An alternative completely inexpert viewpoint:
IMOFO, a venue organiser has a responsibility to take reasonable steps to ensure the safety of his/her customers.

Making, for a moment, the assumption that organiser A has concluded that the use of aerials in his venue constitutes a serious danger to his customers (and leaving aside all arguments as to whether or not this conclusion is correct)

Assuming he then acts to ban aerials, and makes it clear to everyone that they are Not Allowed.

In this case, if I'm not mistaken, you're suggesting that if someone defies this ban, has an accident, and an injury results, then the organiser is more liable than if he'd taken no action whatsoever (despite having identified a hazard to dancers)????

Pull the other one.

LMC
20th-April-2007, 10:53 AM
Blah blah blah "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, I wanna do aerials and I am perfectly safe, help help I'm being oppressed" blah blah excuses blah blah

If David Franklin (aerials champon) plus all the experts that Andy McGregor listed up there say that aerials are inappropriate for a social dance floor, isn't it worth considering that they might know what they are talking about?


Numpty see, numpty do.

It doesn't MATTER how safe YOU are.

Trousers
20th-April-2007, 11:00 AM
If David Franklin (aerials champon) plus all the experts that Andy McGregor listed up there say that aerials are inappropriate for a social dance floor, isn't it worth considering that they might know what they are talking about?



It doesn't MATTER how safe YOU are.

Have you heard the phrase

'Calm down dear, it's only. . . . .' a discussion in this case

Keefy
20th-April-2007, 11:14 AM
Numpty see, numpty do.


Well... if that is the case and we are all going to be restricted in our actions just in case some moron tries something then why are Ceroc having anything to to with aerials at all? As people have pointed out repeatedly Ceroc is about social dancing.

If Ceroc is purely social dancing with no aerials whatsoever at their venues the stop being so bloody hypocritical about it and ban them from Ceroc Championships as well. Anything less will be misrepresentation - the championships are supposed to be showcasing Ceroc social dancing, so why show something that is so dangerous and that Ceroc do not allow? Or can we expect another rule to ensure that numpties are not allowed to see the championships just in case they try to copy some of these banned moves?

Lynn
20th-April-2007, 11:22 AM
Have you heard the phrase

'Calm down dear, it's only. . . . .' a discussion in this case...its only my head that might get kicked when I'm in a drop and the neighbouring pair do an aerial right beside me. Oh, that's alright then.

My viewpoint. I rather like aerials with the right partner and done well and safely. But with someone who doesn't ask me in advance, can't execute them properly etc - I hate them. I have a similar attitude to drops. If aerials are common on the social dance floor then there will be times that I will be led them by the second type of leader - this has happened with drops and I've been injured - or when someone leads one badly near me.

So if it means giving up the enjoyable aerials to ensure I don't get injured by the unsafe ones (either done on me or by others around me) then I guess I'd go with the minimising of risk.

StokeBloke
20th-April-2007, 11:28 AM
My viewpoint. I rather like aerials with the right partner and done well and safely. But with someone who doesn't ask me in advance, can't execute them properly etc - I hate them. I have a similar attitude to drops. If aerials are common on the social dance floor then there will be times that I will be led them by the second type of leader - this has happened with drops and I've been injured - or when someone leads one badly near me.

So if it means giving up the enjoyable aerials to ensure I don't get injured by the unsafe ones (either done on me or by others around me) then I guess I'd go with the minimising of risk.

I have no idea how to back my thoughts up on this point, but I would imagine that far far more follows are hurt by dips, drops and seducers than by aerials. If this is the case, and the push for this ban really is the safety of the dancers, why are Ceroc not addressing the bigger cause of injuries? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

killingtime
20th-April-2007, 11:31 AM
If David Franklin (aerials champon) plus all the experts that Andy McGregor listed up there say that aerials are inappropriate for a social dance floor, isn't it worth considering that they might know what they are talking about?

True enough. I'm pretty undecided on the matter (probably leaning in favour of the ban).

I don't do aerials and don't really plan on doing them; other people on the dance floor doing them sometimes distracts me as I try and insure I give them more room at the expense of me just enjoying the dance. For these reasons I welcome the decision.

However at the same time I do worry that, as was mentioned earlier, this is about:


It does seem to me that Ceroc is aging along with its members, management and crew. It is becoming slower and safer. My guess is that that change in ethos is taking it further away from the younger generation that we might hope to attract. I cannot remember when I last heard "I am getting too old for this".

So yes it is reducing risk but perhaps some of the thrill people are looking for is in that risk. Furthermore I guess the straight up restriction of moves gets to me, maybe not a lot, but just banning things seems like you are just restricting the dance that little bit.

Lynn
20th-April-2007, 11:36 AM
I have no idea how to back my thoughts up on this point, but I would imagine that far far more follows are hurt by dips, drops and seducers than by aerials. If this is the case, and the push for this ban really is the safety of the dancers, why are Ceroc not addressing the bigger cause of injuries? :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:More injury probably because of frequency. But I would guess aerial injuries are more serious. Even if dropped too low and you hit the ground, the follower can usually keep her head up and ensure its not the first thing to hit - when doing an aerial its much harder to have that level of control. You're likely to hit the ground with more force and more awkward angles in an aerial - thus leading to a serious injury.

And a danger is injury from other dancers - eg one follower in a drop gets kicked in the head by another follower being lead even a fairly small airstep.

Hey, I got my worst injury from a basket. Lets ban those too.

Trouble
20th-April-2007, 11:49 AM
I think the difference between aerials and other issues like drops, seducers etc are the element of control. When an aerial is carried out, there is quite a big point of the move that is not controlled. Its down to leverage or balance. This is the area of danger. Not just down to the people doing it but also down to the other dancers who can walk into the people doing the aerials area.

with drops, they are controlled most of the time by one or the other. There is not one point that i can think off when you are relying on leverage or the partners loose connection between them.

To be honest, i do not see many aerials where i go dancing anyway, the only ones that do them that i have seen are dancers who technically are not that good but like to chuck females around as they think its great. I much prefer to watch good moves, interesting musicality and enjoy the connection between partners than watch some woman showing us what she had for breakfast while the man stands there prunning himself thinking arn't i a big strong boy... :respect: :respect:

I have seen on the other hand, in shows and competitions some fantastic, jaw dropping moves that are special and should be kept to those types of events. I have also seen one or two regular dancers who can dance, do the mini aerials very well but they do them rarely and only when very empty on the dance floor.

GOOD CALL GUYS... xx

Simon r
20th-April-2007, 12:03 PM
I think the difference between aerials and other issues like drops, seducers etc are the element of control. When an aerial is carried out, there is quite a big point of the move that is not controlled. Its down to leverage or balance. This is the area of danger. Not just down to the people doing it but also down to the other dancers who can walk into the people doing the aerials area.

with drops, they are controlled most of the time by one or the other. There is not one point that i can think off when you are relying on leverage or the partners loose connection between them.



Sorry but this comment is Twaddle

All major air steps rely on technical controll and the degree of practice required to hold them and to achieve good entrance and exits requires far more controll than any dip or drop.

Several drops allow the partner to freefall which in my opinion is far more likely to cause injuries.

Still agree they should not be done on a social dance floor but would like to keep facts rather than fiction.

Trouble
20th-April-2007, 12:07 PM
Sorry but this comment is Twaddle

All major air steps rely on technical controll and the degree of practice required to hold them and to achieve good entrance and exits requires far more controll than any dip or drop.

Several drops allow the partner to freefall which in my opinion is far more likely to cause injuries.

Still agree they should not be done on a social dance floor but would like to keep facts rather than fiction.

Twaddle, Twaddle, its not Twaddle. Its my opinion which is valid and without prejudice. So Twaddle off. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Simon r
20th-April-2007, 12:14 PM
Twaddle, Twaddle, its not Twaddle. Its my opinion which is valid and without prejudice. So Twaddle off. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

And your experience in completing airials is.....

Trouble
20th-April-2007, 12:16 PM
And your experience in completing airials is.....

limited but enough to know that when you do a swan dive you are completely at the mercy of chance and people around you not getting in the way. I have done a couple of mini aerial classes and they are great fun but not something that can be done willy nilly on a social floor.

StokeBloke
20th-April-2007, 12:16 PM
I think when people think of aerials they instantly assume we are talking about the HUUUUUUGE lift at the end of Dirty Dancing. This is a total blanket ban on aerials we're talking about, (although that has yet to be defined) from a triple-step through to monster lifts like the Dirty Dancing one. The thrust of the ban seems to be (although there is no word from Ceroc on this) safety of the dancers. Yet the moves which cause the most injuries are not being dealt with ..... YET!

How long before your favorite moves are in the cross-hairs? Double spins that can unbalance the follow if not led well, dips, the octopus, seducer moves, pretzels (tell me they are always completely safe and well led), drops or anything else for that matter.

By jumping on the 'it's unsafe so blanket ban it' band wagon you are opening yourself up to having anything else banned. Don't you see that? If that is the solution you back for 'the sake of safety' then it can be used in the future and you will not be able to argue against it if Ceroc can show that people have been injured whilst doing it.

Rather than blanket banning aerials as a solution, how about addressing the real problem, people pulling potentially dangerous moves without consent, people pulling potentially dangerous moves in places that are inappropriate (like a busy dance floor). Note the use of the words potentially dangerous moves... I am not talking about aerials, I am talking about any potentially dangerous move. Why not EDUCATE the dancers to their personal responsibilities towards each other and treat them like grown ups. Rather than blanket banning a whole series of moves on so-called safety grounds. It is the thin end of the wedge for banning anything. They may well be running in circles, screaming we need to ban dips due to back injuries 'won't somebody please think of the poor children' next.... it is utter tosh.

How creative people who dance can sanction the total banning of moves used by other dancers to express themselves on the floor is frankly beyond me. You (the collective 'you') should be totally ashamed of yourselves. A solution is needed if the floor is getting too dangerous, but a total ban on moves......... pttt.

straycat
20th-April-2007, 12:17 PM
Sorry but this comment is Twaddle

Depends on the context. As regards most of the aerials I've seen done in MJ venues, it's a long way from being twaddle. When aerials are properly executed, yes, the control is there throughout.

On the other hand - with most (all?) aerials, there will be a period of time where the couple has totally committed themselves to doing the move, and during which any emergency changes of plan are totally out of the question (or, at least, very dangerous to implement), control or no control.

With other types of move, this period either doesn't exist, or is a lot shorter / less severe. I think this is part of what Trouble was alluding to.

LilyB
20th-April-2007, 12:18 PM
... If Ceroc is purely social dancing with no aerials whatsoever at their venues the stop being so bloody hypocritical about it and ban them from Ceroc Championships as well. Anything less will be misrepresentation - the championships are supposed to be showcasing Ceroc social dancing, so why show something that is so dangerous and that Ceroc do not allow? Or can we expect another rule to ensure that numpties are not allowed to see the championships just in case they try to copy some of these banned moves?

If this argument is correct, then the Showcase, Team Cabaret and to a lesser extent, Ceroc X, categories should also be dropped. Much of the choreography in Showcase routines have no place (or are unlikely to be seen) on the social dance floor. And clearly we can't have teams of dancers constantly doing routines on the social dance floor either, can we :whistle: ? . And how many of us (apart from beginners, natch) will only ever dance beginner moves all night long :sick: ?

According to the above agrument, it would be hypocritical to have these categories in the Ceroc Champs as "the championships are supposed to be showcasing Ceroc social dancing", and these categories are very obviously not about true social dancing. They would thus be a "misrepresentation" of Ceroc :what: . As those of us who have been to a number of Ceroc Champs in the past will have noticed, the Aerials category is far from being the only one which is not "purely social dancing". In fact, the only category which to my mind qualifies as purely social dancing is the Lucky Dip. Should the Champs therefore have only one category then - so as to properly showcase pure Ceroc social dancing?:D

Trouble
20th-April-2007, 12:24 PM
Depends on the context. As regards most of the aerials I've seen done in MJ venues, it's a long way from being twaddle. When aerials are properly executed, yes, the control is there throughout.

On the other hand - with most (all?) aerials, there will be a period of time where the couple has totally committed themselves to doing the move, and during which any emergency changes of plan are totally out of the question (or, at least, very dangerous to implement), control or no control.

With other types of move, this period either doesn't exist, or is a lot shorter / less severe. I think this is part of what Trouble was alluding to.


thank you for reading my thread properly xxx :awe: :hug:

Simon r
20th-April-2007, 12:30 PM
limited but enough to know that when you do a swan dive you are completely at the mercy of chance and people around you not getting in the way. I have done a couple of mini aerial classes and they are great fun but not something that can be done willy nilly on a social floor.

Ok where to start the swan dive requires the follower to hold the torso stroung and engage the forward backward motion the leader is not to fling his partner down and the follower do a good impresion of a rag doll.


We have actually complained about the teaching at weekenders for the lack of information that was actually given and the risks made by the teachers is this the best place to learn air steps ( even mini) ... No...

The classes are unqualified as to the attendess and too big.

I learnt mini airials from acomplished teachers who qualified your attendance and then ran small workshops to teach the moves.

For major air steps this can only be taught in a 1 to 1 enviroment with spotters etc...

Simon r
20th-April-2007, 12:37 PM
Depends on the context. As regards most of the aerials I've seen done in MJ venues, it's a long way from being twaddle. When aerials are properly executed, yes, the control is there throughout.

On the other hand - with most (all?) aerials, there will be a period of time where the couple has totally committed themselves to doing the move, and during which any emergency changes of plan are totally out of the question (or, at least, very dangerous to implement), control or no control.

With other types of move, this period either doesn't exist, or is a lot shorter / less severe. I think this is part of what Trouble was alluding to.

Part of teaching air steps properly is breaking down the move's components and working on break out tacticts which then with the controll alows all movements to be changed and aborted as required.

I really do think with proper teaching all these myths can be shown to be what they are.

We were very lucky to have Dave and Lily show us how they execute airials and when understood you can then mirror the same methods on to all air steps.

It does take practice and it is not a one stop shop but worth the effort

David Franklin
20th-April-2007, 12:54 PM
There are two different issues here:

Q: Do you need lots of control to do aerials?
A: Yes.

Q: Do you have lots of control when doing aerials?
A: No.

The apparent contradiction is that "control" means different things in the two cases.

You need lots of control, skill, strength and practice to do an aerial safely under ideal conditions. But even then, your ability to control the progression of the aerial is very limited. You can't easily change direction. You can't easily "pause and wait" because someone's in the way. You probably can't recover your balance if someone bumps into you. Heck, even walking and turning are tricky. You may still have some ability to do all these things, but in terms of floorcraft, your "control" doesn't compare favourably with a rank beginner doing normal moves.

Because of this, as far as David and Lily's teaching goes, their advice about doing aerials on a social dancefloor is easily summarised:

Don't.

Trouble
20th-April-2007, 01:56 PM
There are two different issues here:

Q: Do you need lots of control to do aerials?
A: Yes.

Q: Do you have lots of control when doing aerials?
A: No.

The apparent contradiction is that "control" means different things in the two cases.

You need lots of control, skill, strength and practice to do an aerial safely under ideal conditions. But even then, your ability to control the progression of the aerial is very limited. You can't easily change direction. You can't easily "pause and wait" because someone's in the way. You probably can't recover your balance if someone bumps into you. Heck, even walking and turning are tricky. You may still have some ability to do all these things, but in terms of floorcraft, your "control" doesn't compare favourably with a rank beginner doing normal moves.

Because of this, as far as David and Lily's teaching goes, their advice about doing aerials on a social dancefloor is easily summarised:

Don't.

:yeah: Exactly.!

Trousers
20th-April-2007, 02:07 PM
Can we have a little consistancy from now on.

How about we all use Air Step

It's two words one a three letter one and one with four and I bet you can all spell them too.

Arials Aerials (ok you can have that one) Airials

:confused:

Icey
20th-April-2007, 02:15 PM
... This is a total blanket ban on aerials we're talking about, (although that has yet to be defined) from a triple-step through to monster lifts like the Dirty Dancing one.

Apologies for being REALLY dense here, but how is a triple step an aerial?

Trouble
20th-April-2007, 02:15 PM
Can we have a little consistancy from now on.

How about we all use Air Step

It's two words one a three letter one and one with four and I bet you can all spell them too.

Arials Aerials (ok you can have that one) Airials

:confused:

if we were all the same we would all be boring. Plus you can tell peoples level of excitement by the level of their spelling. For E.g whoever typed airials was clearly very excited at their post content. I think we should stick to Aerials so we can gauge excitement levels. :rolleyes: :D

Trousers
20th-April-2007, 02:21 PM
if we were all the same we would all be boring. Plus you can tell peoples level of excitement by the level of their spelling. For E.g whoever typed airials was clearly very excited at their post content. I think we should stick to Aerials so we can gauge excitement levels. :rolleyes: :D

Won't work Trubble

'cos where you read 'very excited'

I actually got the feeling that 'apoplectic with fury' was a closer description

and frankly I was shocked by that response! :eek:

Simon r
20th-April-2007, 02:21 PM
if we were all the same we would all be boring. Plus you can tell peoples level of excitement by the level of their spelling. For E.g whoever typed airials was clearly very excited at their post content. I think we should stick to Aerials so we can gauge excitement levels. :rolleyes: :D

:D :D
Probably the worst on the forum, rubbish school, and no one to ever put me right.

Thank god for word spell check.

StokeBloke
20th-April-2007, 02:22 PM
Apologies for being REALLY dense here, but how is a triple step an aerial?
It was commented earlier in the thread that if aerial is defined as both feet leaving the floor at the same time, then a triple step is an aeri....

Trouble
20th-April-2007, 02:25 PM
Won't work Trubble

'cos where you read 'very excited'

I actually got the feeling that 'apoplectic with fury' was a closer description

and frankly I was shocked by that response! :eek:

twousers twousers twousers, such little things get you soooo excited. :D

LMC
20th-April-2007, 02:29 PM
It was commented earlier in the thread that if aerial is defined as both feet leaving the floor at the same time, then a triple step is an aeri....

Modern Jive :: Chapter :: Glossary (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/glossary.html)


Aerial

Invented by Frankie Manning as part of the Lindy Hop, an aerial is an “air” move where one partner supports (“lifts”) the other partner off the ground — typically the leader supports the follower, or vice versa.

Note: competitions define aerial moves differently — some competitions define that an aerial occurs when a dancer's foot rises above the height of their partner's knee, while others define that an aerial occurs when a dancer's foot rises above the height of their partner's waist.
(my bold)

You'd have to be bloody fit to get your feet that high in a triple step over two beats.

CJ
20th-April-2007, 02:29 PM
SO far as I can see... on the subject of Aer Steps, we have 3 main discussions and many one-on-one contratantes.

discussion 1) is there a place for major Ayr steps (sorry, trousers...) on the social dance floor.

This has been covered, rather emotively, else where and the answer is no. I haven't seen anyone argue contrary to this.

discussion 2) should we allow numpties to cause the banning of all air steps because they are "dangerous", when there are more dangerous moves being executed every night. Here we have a) aerials don't cause injury, numpties do: and b) if we ban all aerials, even the numpties won't do them. Incorporated into this, is freedom of expression, and the New Labour approach to health and safety(thin end of the wedge, etc, etc).

discussion 3) {which seems a little neglected, IMHO} all air steps should be banned: air steps, mini air steps, triple steps, any move where a dancer has both feet off the ground at the same time. (BTW, is there a way for a pretzel to be classified as an airstep and, hence, be banned?!?:whistle: ) If this is the case, what will Ceroc do about their logo, and the Champs...??

Then there's the my dad can fight your dad stuff which, whilst mildly entertaining, isn't enormously helpful.:D

Personally, this type of legislation troubles me, and I would rather see a more sensible, thought through approach. Educating dancers strikes me as a fabulous idea, but I don't see Ceroc (with notable exceptions, particularly north of the border) really buying into that approach. I'd rather educate, then trust dancers. After all, for many of us (particularly on the forum) dancing is about expression, and not just about getting out the house for a few hours...

What happens next? Do we, can we, get a concensus and take it to Ceroc HQ??

LMC
20th-April-2007, 02:33 PM
What happens next? Do we, can we, get a concensus and take it to Ceroc HQ??
Or a consensus sorry sorry sorry, it's catching.

Or even get Ceroc HQ to define what it means by an aerial. I suspect it will be similar to the definition I posted above (with thanks to afterfive.co.uk - link auto-altered).

Trousers
20th-April-2007, 02:33 PM
:D :D
Probably the worst on the forum, rubbish school, and no one to ever put me right.

Thank god for word spell check.

but you can dance.


Can i ask a pointed question, roughly on the lines were are discussing here ie. safety on the floor .. . .

How often do you look down from the stage after doing your teacher bit and think 'Boy its' busy out there!'

Then how many of those times do you take the next step and say 'It's busy out there tonight guys, please dance carefully!' ?

I ask because I feel if these points were raised more people in general would be more aware and the whole experience would be generally safer for everyone.

Simon r
20th-April-2007, 02:38 PM
but you can dance.


Can i ask a pointed question, roughly on the lines were are discussing here ie. safety on the floor .. . .

How often do you look down from the stage after doing your teacher bit and think 'Boy its' busy out there!'

Then how many of those times do you take the next step and say 'It's busy out there tonight guys, please dance carefully!' ?

I'm sure that was a line from Hill street blues,

to be honest not that often

but i do teach in a slot and cover in the class about keeping on a slot and also about looking over each other shoulders not sure how much goes in but sort of cover those things.
Ok off for the weekender now so will catch up on monday

TheTramp
20th-April-2007, 03:14 PM
To be honest, i do not see many aerials where i go dancing anyway, the only ones that do them that i have seen are dancers who technically are not that good but like to chuck females around as they think its great.

After my experience last night, I'm even more in favour of the banning aerials at social dance events - and that's even though, given the right circumstances, I have been known to do the occasional one.

The usual Glasgow numpty (I have another name for him, but you can't type that on the forum apparently), decided to visit Perth (the venue I teach and DJ at).

Having seen him arrive, and knowing what he's like, I made sure that I was dancing next to him.

The 4th song in freestyle, when the floor was VERY crowded, he put a girl who is a relative beginner, and has no experience of anything like that, into a half moon/loop/tumble (I've seen it called all 3 names - basically, what the Ceroc logo is), with her feet in the air, at head height, pretty much right in the middle of the dance floor.

He has been warned by me on at least 2 other occasions, been warned by Franck on at least 2 other occasions that I have seen (and I dance very infrequently in Glasgow), and I gather that he's also had a short-term ban previously as well.

I stopped dancing, and warned him again that if he did anything like that, I would ask him to leave.

It wasn't at all safe, and I had at least 10 reasonably experienced (or better) dancers either complain about it and him, or comment that they'd noticed him doing it, and me talking to him. Most of the good and experienced dancers up here won't dance with him, so he goes for the few that will, or beginners who don't know him, or don't know any better.

Personally, if it means that it stops people like him, I'm very prepared to put up with, and enforce, a total ban on any moves that take both of your partners feet off the floor.

And, I'd say that it should be one strike, and you're out. No more warnings. Do it again, and be told that you're no longer welcome to attend Ceroc evenings.

Gav
20th-April-2007, 03:19 PM
Whether it's a problem or not has been done to death elsewhere http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/attachments/forum-technical-problems-questions-suggestions/8152d1175172220-new-smilies-play-smiley115.gif, so wouldn't the most sensible solution be for all venue staff (teachers, demo's, taxis, organisers etc) to be more vigilant and to have the balls to stop people who are doing ANY inappropriate moves, or doing potentially dangerous moves badly, and explain to them what they're doing wrong and/or ask them to stop?

Would it really be that hard to say "excuse me, I'm afraid the dance floor is far too busy for you to do drops safely at the moment, please stop doing them until there's more room".

Maybe a reminder from the teacher just before freestyle starts "Please consider other dancers and your partners safety before leading potentially dangerous moves such as drops or aerials. If you're not sure if you have enough room or not, you don't".

Seems to me that with the minimum of extra work, organisers could make dancing safer and more fun without having to blanket ban any types of moves. http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/attachments/forum-technical-problems-questions-suggestions/8154d1175172220-new-smilies-play-th_soapbox.gif

StokeBloke
20th-April-2007, 03:24 PM
The usual Glasgow numpty (I have another name for him, but you can't type that on the forum apparently), decided to .... {snip horror story}

I DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT THIS GUY DID, BUT...

....OK - I know I'm going to get flamed for this but.... what you're saying is a guy took a novice dancer out on a busy floor and pulled a big aerial with her and no one got the slightest bit hurt.

I was just saying!

Keefy
20th-April-2007, 03:28 PM
Personally, if it means that it stops people like him, I'm very prepared to put up with, and enforce, a total ban on any moves that take both of your partners feet off the floor.

And, I'd say that it should be one strike, and you're out. No more warnings. Do it again, and be told that you're no longer welcome to attend Ceroc evenings.With all due respect it is this nanny state "oohhh - let's ban everything!" approach that so many people including me object to. The current subject matter of aerials is irrelevant to that argument - just where do you draw the line and what do you want banned next?

1. How many people have you seen perform aerials at said venue?
2. How many people have you felt it necessary to warn?

Because unless the answer to 2. is significantly greater than your answer to 1. then I would suggest that the problem is being handled the wrong way. Your 'one strike and your out' suggestion sounds fine - but it should be applied to the PROBLEM rather than the blanket ban that is being talked about. By your logic nobody would be allowed to drive cars - because a tiny minority of people drive them dangerously. I can never agree to that approach, be it on the dance floor or elsewhere in life.

Deal with the problem, not the majority who are not a problem. That is all people are asking.

TheTramp
20th-April-2007, 03:30 PM
I DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT THIS GUY DID, BUT...

....OK - I know I'm going to get flamed for this but.... what you're saying is a guy took a novice dancer out on a busy floor and pulled a big aerial with her and no one got the slightest bit hurt.

I was just saying!

Umm. What are you trying to say?

That until someone gets hurt, we should turn a blind eye?

StokeBloke
20th-April-2007, 03:33 PM
Seems to me that with the minimum of extra work, organisers could make dancing safer and more fun without having to blanket ban any types of moves. http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/attachments/forum-technical-problems-questions-suggestions/8154d1175172220-new-smilies-play-th_soapbox.gif
:yeah: This shouldn't be about aerials, this should be about all potentially dangerous moves. Educate, educate, educate.

Keefy
20th-April-2007, 03:34 PM
Umm. What are you trying to say?That until someone gets hurt, we should turn a blind eye?No - people are saying that the actual real risk should be managed, not ignored or dealt with by nanny state bans. People have been known to die of heart attacks whilst dancing - should the entire venue be shut down because of that risk?

TheTramp
20th-April-2007, 03:38 PM
With all due respect it is this nanny state "oohhh - let's ban everything!" approach that so many people including me object to. The current subject matter of aerials is irrelevant to that argument - just where do you draw the line and what do you want banned next?

1. How many people have you seen perform aerials at said venue?
2. How many people have you felt it necessary to warn?

Because unless the answer to 2. is significantly greater than your answer to 1. then I would suggest that the problem is being handled the wrong way. Your 'one strike and your out' suggestion sounds fine - but it should be applied to the PROBLEM rather than the blanket ban that is being talked about. By your logic nobody would be allowed to drive cars - because a tiny minority of people drive them dangerously. I can never agree to that approach, be it on the dance floor or elsewhere in life.

Deal with the problem, not the majority who are not a problem. That is all people are asking.

The majority of people don't do aerials, it's a very small minority of people that do actually do them (and, just for the record, I'm speaking as someone who won the UK aerials competition, and as a previous teacher of aerials).

Hence, your analogy is flawed. The majority of people don't drive their cars (or dance) dangerously. Since, and I don't think anyone could argue against this, aerials are inherently more dangerous than other moves, by banning aerials, you are dealing with the dangerous drivers. Maybe they haven't yet crashed, but in some cases, it's just a matter of time. Maybe not this week, or this month, or this year, but sometime.

The answer to your 2 questions, is:
1. Until last night. None. Except possibly me at the end of the night on very occasional times. But I've never felt it necessary to warn myself. And, in future, I won't be doing them. At any venue.
2. Until last night. None.

Which, although it means that the numbers are the same, still supports the fact that having a blanket ban would affect no-one, except the travelling numpties...

StokeBloke
20th-April-2007, 03:39 PM
Umm. What are you trying to say?

That until someone gets hurt, we should turn a blind eye?
No. People have gotten hurt. I am saying that aerials are being portrayed as the work of the devil. That if anyone with the exception of one or two well respected show dancers pulls one, then the dance floor will be awash with blood and brains. Because we're all too stupid to be trusted with these potential killers; and that Daily Mail attitude just isn't accurate.

straycat
20th-April-2007, 03:40 PM
No - people are saying that the actual real risk should be managed, not ignored or dealt with by nanny state bans. People have been known to die of heart attacks whilst dancing - should the entire venue be shut down because of that risk?

If someone chooses to ill-advisedly dance (knowingly, or unknowingly) with a serious heart condition, at least they're only risking harm to themselves.** The incident that Trampy describes risked this guy's partner, the people dancing nearby, and the good reputation of the venue. Like it or not, there is a difference.

**Unless they have a heart attack while performing an aerial :eek:

TheTramp
20th-April-2007, 03:41 PM
No - people are saying that the actual real risk should be managed, not ignored or dealt with by nanny state bans. People have been known to die of heart attacks whilst dancing - should the entire venue be shut down because of that risk?

Yeah. And people have been known to die of stuff while living. Personally, I think that we should all stop living because of the risk.





(Yes, I know, it's a stupid argument. But if you're going to have one, then I should be allowed to have one too. Or, should we all be allowed to drive at 150mph round town until someone gets killed doing it?)

pmjd
20th-April-2007, 03:42 PM
I DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT THIS GUY DID, BUT...

....OK - I know I'm going to get flamed for this but.... what you're saying is a guy took a novice dancer out on a busy floor and pulled a big aerial with her and no one got the slightest bit hurt.

I was just saying!

So are you saying it's perfectly acceptable for someone to throw another dancer around, beginner or not, without having the common sense or courtesy to ASK if it was acceptable to perform these potentially dangerous moves with them:confused: :confused: :confused:

TheTramp
20th-April-2007, 03:43 PM
No. People have gotten hurt. I am saying that aerials are being portrayed as the work of the devil. That if anyone with the exception of one or two well respected show dancers pulls one, then the dance floor will be awash with blood and brains. Because we're all too stupid to be trusted with these potential killers; and that Daily Mail attitude just isn't accurate.

No. Aerials are being portrayed as generally unsafe for social dancing. And, if you weren't being quite so selfish about your own desire to do them, then you'd have to agree with that.

Have you ever thought about trying to improve your dancing skills, rather than just doing big, flashy moves? Took me a while to get there, but I finally saw the light. Trust me, it works so much better in the end :D

straycat
20th-April-2007, 03:44 PM
Personally, I think that we should all stop living because of the risk.

Now that's just selfish.
If everyone died at once, who would we come back to haunt? :(

LMC
20th-April-2007, 03:49 PM
I am saying that aerials are being portrayed as the work of the devil.
No they are not.

Performance of aerials on a social dance floor, however ...

NB - any 'you's in this post should be taken as "general you" not SB specifically.

You want to do aerials? - do aerials lessons, workshops, hire your own room to practice, whatever. But leave them at home if you're going to a freestyle where any idiot might think "oooh, that's cool, I'll try it".

As Trampy says, look at the numbers. I would put good money on there being far more injuries per 1000 aerials performed - by anyone - than per 1000 of any other move performed. Any physical activity has a risk of injury, and dancing is no exception.

Aerials are inherently more risky than most other moves. Aerials on a social dance floor have even more potential for serious injury.

If you want to take that risk - fine. Good for you. But don't impose that risk on people who haven't chosen it. That includes the dancers around you, not just your partner.

Accidents happen. I don't want to embarrass him, but in a good cause, I'm sure he won't mind: I've seen David Franklin drop Bryony at a showcase - where they obviously had the whole floor to themselves. Luckily, Bryony appears to be made of rubber, there was no serious injury. But the damage if that had happened on a social dance floor doesn't bear thinking about - they could well have taken out at least 3 or 4 other couples. Who would have been even less prepared and therefore could have been worse injured. Because David knows the risks, he says "Don't".

UK aerials champion vs selfish people who insist that dancing aerials are essential for their own enjoyment of a freestyle and to hell with the rest of you? I know whose opinion I trust more.

Can we make this poll public so we know who to avoid at the next venue we go to that hasn't got round to banning aerials yet?

EDIT: cross-posted with Trampy

Keefy
20th-April-2007, 03:52 PM
The majority of people don't do aerials, it's a very small minority of people that do actually do them (and, just for the record, I'm speaking as someone who won the UK aerials competition, and as a previous teacher of aerials).I have the very greatest of respect for your knowledge, achievements and expertise within this area, it is far more than I could ever dream of achieving - but I am having a great deal of difficulty seeing why a ban is the only answer. From your responses (thank you) it would seem that you have seen one person at one venue performing moves dangerously, and on that basis have surmised that a blanket ban is appropriate! Coming from a person of your experience that could be seen as "do as I say, not as I do".

I return to my original point - if they are so dangerous they should never be taught or seen then remove them from the champs as well. If that is not the case then wouldn't it be better to educate and manage the risk rather than wash your hands of it all with draconian bans?

TheTramp
20th-April-2007, 04:00 PM
Because, from my experience, you can't stop the numpties - as I said, this particular one has been warned many times in the last few years, and, overall, it's having no effect. You're right, we could just ban him, and the other people that do stupid things, dangerously. But, from a general safety point of view, wouldn't it just be better to stop unsafe practice - and no matter how good you are (not even how good you THINK you are, but the actual position), accidents can happen. That's generally why unsafe procedures in all walks of life are prohibited. Note that there's nothing stopping people who enjoy doing this sort of thing from doing them. Just not at Ceroc social nights.

As for removing them from the champs, I'm totally for it. Let's have a dancing competition, not a flashy moves one. At the recently Blackpool comp, I'm guessing that my partner is the only female who had at least one of her feet on the floor at all times (in the advanced). And while I have always said that the judges decision is final, I was very disappointed with the results all the way through the competition there - it seems as if the people who do the big, flashy moves, no matter how bad their dancing is (comparatively) will do well. Which is a shame.

So yes. Please feel free to remove aerials from the competitions. That'd be absolutely fine by me. Have aerials categories for those interested in that sort of thing, but don't call it social dancing :D

bedforddipper
20th-April-2007, 04:04 PM
Now lets see, I think I am correct in thinking that most who attend Ceroc are adults?? With that comes some degree of responsibility, do we really need rules and regulations as to what style of dance we can perform??
I have been dancing for 5 years in Bedford and have travelled many hundreds of miles around the south east & midlands and for 4 of those years I have been performing aerials mainly with one partner, Fran Browning, and that is where the common sense bit kicks in, you ONLY perform aerials where;
A - You are totally confident with your partner
B - They are totally confident with you
C - There is room on the dance floor and BOTH dancers are totally aware of what & who is around them
D - If either of you feel unsafe you have a "cut out" word/phrase so the move can be aborted safely. (that word/phrase is NOT F*** it or Ouch!!)
E - GUYS, if you haven't been taught it properly, dont attempt it!

We both know that some of the moves we have performed carry a huge amount of personal risk and potential injury should they go wrong, on the other hand when initially practising them we have experienced dancers on hand to assist us.

If Ceroc is going to be wimp like and ban aerials, can they please ban, high heels, engagement rings, long fingernails, bracelets, elbows etc etc!!
For gods sake get real and get off the "Nanny State" line!!

I believe this whole debate started following an "accident" at a venue close to me and with a lady with whom I have performed aerials & lifts, she is a fantastic dancer and one of a very few that i would consider performing any form of lift or aerial with

Yes, you might guess I am in favour of aerials, some of you may know Fran suffered a major stroke earlier this year - nothing to do with dancing - and although slowly recovering it will be some time before she is able to dance again, so with her blessing, if there are any ladies that would care to be lifted above my head, turned upside down and generally "thrown around" (in a nice way) ????
:yeah:

StokeBloke
20th-April-2007, 04:07 PM
No. Aerials are being portrayed as generally unsafe for social dancing. And, if you weren't being quite so selfish about your own desire to do them, then you'd have to agree with that.
I do agree that aerials are potentially very dangerous moves. I do not agree that banning them will make the dance floor particularly safer. As the numpties will just refocus on doing big flash drops.... and then drops will be considered unsafe and banned. People pulling dangerous moves are the problem, you seem to be a big advocate of treating just a symptom. I feel that treating the cause may be more effective. But what would a big old selfish crappy dancer like me who needs to improve their dancing know about it?

I did wonder how long it would be before the discussion reached the personal insult level, I must admit I am disappointed that it came from a poster who's words are usually well crafted and eloquent :sad:

LMC
20th-April-2007, 04:08 PM
Bedforddipper, I know this is your first post, so welcome and all that - really. It's always good to see new faces :)

But have you read the rest of the thread???

If not, please do so :flower:

Trousers
20th-April-2007, 04:08 PM
Bedford Dipper - Hmmm new account seemingly just to reply to this post.

Incognito or frayed nerves may I ask?

LMC
20th-April-2007, 04:11 PM
I feel that treating the cause may be more effective.
You are absolutely right.

Unfortunately, some people, as noted by Trampy already, will never listen. It is a shame they spoil it for the rest of you. But that's life. Deal with it.

straycat
20th-April-2007, 04:12 PM
But what would a big old selfish crappy dancer like me who needs to improve their dancing know about it?


Well - I think part of Trampy's point is that learning aerials does not do much to improve your dancing. Learning aerials teaches you to do aerials. Learning to dance is a very different thing. I'll keep it at that, because to go further down this road would be to launch into another debate entirely - and one that I imagine has been trod many a time on this forum (yeah - I know that never normally stops me, but just this once...)

PS - this post is in no way intended as a comment on your own dancing, so please don't take as such.

Double Trouble
20th-April-2007, 04:12 PM
Sorry but this comment is Twaddle

All major air steps rely on technical controll and the degree of practice required to hold them and to achieve good entrance and exits requires far more controll than any dip or drop.

Several drops allow the partner to freefall which in my opinion is far more likely to cause injuries.

Still agree they should not be done on a social dance floor but would like to keep facts rather than fiction.


And your experience in completing airials is.....


Ok where to start the swan dive requires the follower to hold the torso stroung and engage the forward backward motion the leader is not to fling his partner down and the follower do a good impresion of a rag doll.


We have actually complained about the teaching at weekenders for the lack of information that was actually given and the risks made by the teachers is this the best place to learn air steps ( even mini) ... No...

The classes are unqualified as to the attendess and too big.

I learnt mini airials from acomplished teachers who qualified your attendance and then ran small workshops to teach the moves.

For major air steps this can only be taught in a 1 to 1 enviroment with spotters etc...


Part of teaching air steps properly is breaking down the move's components and working on break out tacticts which then with the controll alows all movements to be changed and aborted as required.

I really do think with proper teaching all these myths can be shown to be what they are.

We were very lucky to have Dave and Lily show us how they execute airials and when understood you can then mirror the same methods on to all air steps.

It does take practice and it is not a one stop shop but worth the effort


:D :D
Probably the worst on the forum, rubbish school, and no one to ever put me right.

Thank god for word spell check.


I'm sure that was a line from Hill street blues,

to be honest not that often

but i do teach in a slot and cover in the class about keeping on a slot and also about looking over each other shoulders not sure how much goes in but sort of cover those things.
Ok off for the weekender now so will catch up on monday

So Simon. I've read through everything you have written so far and riveting as it all is I still dont see what you think the answer is.

I for one am sick and tired of having to give up a quarter of the dance floor cos' two of the most annoying people insist on doing aerials ALL THE FEKKIN TIME at Cheshunt. The organisers are too spineless to tell them to stop and its not up to the punters to have the uncomfortable discussion with them.

A total ban is the only way forward as far as i am concerned.

I don't speak as someone who is an expert on aerials like you:rolleyes: more as someone who doesn't want to give up valuable floor space to idiots who look crap and don't care if they annoy everyone else, but more importantly have no concern for their own or anyone elses safety.

What do you propose? And can you keep it short please, I'm going dancing tonight.:flower:

TheTramp
20th-April-2007, 04:12 PM
I did wonder how long it would be before the discussion reached the personal insult level, I must admit I am disappointed that it came from a poster who's words are usually well crafted and eloquent :sad:

I wasn't intending personal insults. I see your decision to want aerials at social dancing as selfish. That's not a personal insult, that's a statement of fact.

As for improving your dancing, I didn't say you were crappy. Everyone can improve. Just for the record, I'd say that it's only the last 2-3 years that I really stopped thinking about doing the big, flashy stuff, and concentrated more on improving my dancing in other ways (connection, lead & follow, etc.). At that point, I'd placed about 15 times at the national comps in a variety of categories. I wasn't crappy, but I definitely could (and hopefully did) improve my dancing. I wish someone had sat me down 5 years earlier and suggested it. But, like you, I probably wouldn't have listened to them.... :flower:

Yliander
20th-April-2007, 04:13 PM
At the recently Blackpool comp, I'm guessing that my partner is the only female who had at least one of her feet on the floor at all times (in the advanced). well that makes at least 2 follows that kept a foot on the floor

TheTramp
20th-April-2007, 04:17 PM
Now lets see, I think I am correct in thinking that most who attend Ceroc are adults?? With that comes some degree of responsibility, do we really need rules and regulations as to what style of dance we can perform??
I have been dancing for 5 years in Bedford and have travelled many hundreds of miles around the south east & midlands and for 4 of those years I have been performing aerials mainly with one partner, Fran Browning, and that is where the common sense bit kicks in, you ONLY perform aerials where;
A - You are totally confident with your partner
B - They are totally confident with you
C - There is room on the dance floor and BOTH dancers are totally aware of what & who is around them
D - If either of you feel unsafe you have a "cut out" word/phrase so the move can be aborted safely. (that word/phrase is NOT F*** it or Ouch!!)
E - GUYS, if you haven't been taught it properly, dont attempt it!

We both know that some of the moves we have performed carry a huge amount of personal risk and potential injury should they go wrong, on the other hand when initially practising them we have experienced dancers on hand to assist us.

You know. If the people who wanted to do aerials did this, then I don't think that there would be a problem.

THAT's the point that everyone arguing against them is making.

And yes, as I previously said, I have been known to do the occasional aerial, following all of your rules above. And I'm totally for the ban.

I guess that makes some people who go not adults, maybe it's a shame that the rest of us have to suffer because of them. But that's how it goes. No-one is stopping you doing aerials at all. Feel free, go ahead, almost as often as you like. Just not at social Ceroc events.

bigdjiver
20th-April-2007, 08:21 PM
If David Franklin (aerials champon) plus all the experts that Andy McGregor listed up there say that aerials are inappropriate for a social dance floor, isn't it worth considering that they might know what they are talking about?I do consider it. I also consider how much pleasure I got from watching the arials champs from a few years back practicing their stuff at our local venue a few weeks back. I don't know what all of the others watching might have been thinking, but I do know that it inspired at least one MJ beginner lady.

I have my own opinion of the attitude of the other dancers if the venue manager had stopped them.

The difference of opinion centres around whether MJ is just a social dance, or has a performance aspect. The fact that we have championships, the Ceroc logo, and the history of Ceroc testify to the fact that it had a performance element. (I believe an performance choreographed by Michele Ange Lau had a vital part to play in the formation of Ceroc). The fact that Michaella spent a goood chunk of the lesson last night teaching people how to look good wiggling also points to the fact that people I respect think that it matters what others can see.

BTW another part of the lesson was :devil: "trip all" :devil: steps. I would add practising those to dance hall hazards.



It doesn't MATTER how safe YOU are.I have scars from nails and heels to prove that attitude.

bigdjiver
20th-April-2007, 08:44 PM
...its only my head that might get kicked when I'm in a drop and the neighbouring pair do an aerial right beside me. Oh, that's alright then.You are more likely to be hit with a hand or elbow. You could even collide with someone doing the same drop, or someone falling for some other reason. It is not the move involved, it is the lack of safe clearance.

bigdjiver
20th-April-2007, 08:52 PM
I think the difference between aerials and other issues like drops, seducers etc are the element of control. When an aerial is carried out, there is quite a big point of the move that is not controlled. Its down to leverage or balance. This is the area of danger. Not just down to the people doing it but also down to the other dancers who can walk into the people doing the aerials area....The aerials that I do are all closely controlled. There is a longer period where I cannot react quickly to unforeseen events in most dips and drops that I do, which is why I usually head for the quiet corners to do those moves.

bigdjiver
20th-April-2007, 09:15 PM
Bedford Dipper - Hmmm new account seemingly just to reply to this post.

Incognito or frayed nerves may I ask?I am sure that Bedford Dipper is the fellow dancer, and aerials lover, whom I told about the proposed ban last night, and the forum discussion.

David Franklin
20th-April-2007, 09:22 PM
I suggest those of you who oppose a ban try to work out some set of rules that you think are workable. You might want to bear in mind the following:


Nobody does an aerial thinking that they are being dangerous, so telling them that they are is not going to go down well.
Who's going to decide what's dangerous? Most venue managers or teachers don't have the expertise.
We are talking about risk management here. Solutions that involve banning someone after they've dropped someone on their head do not help here - the damage is done.
What is the justification for having aerials in Ceroc? When I started Ceroc, maybe 1 couple in a thousand did aerials on a social floor, so there's a lot of evidence that Ceroc can do just fine without them.
The "it inspires people" argument works both ways. We all know of accidents where someone has seen a (practiced) couple do an aerial, though "hey cool, I'll copy that!" and ended up injured.


When you form your arguments, it would be sensible to think of what is going to make sense to a venue manager (and to Ceroc as a whole), rather than what makes sense to you. You might also want to consider DavidB's thoughts (very roughly: "the average venue is 10 times too crowded for doing social aerials safely"), seeing as he is by a long way the top aerials expert in MJ, and Ceroc probably should have some justification for ignoring his advice on safety.

I would actually like to see a workable solution, I just don't see it happening. But I have to be honest, to a very large extent, all I'm seeing here is "I want to be able to do this, so Ceroc should let me". (Heck, I want to be able to do the Dirty Dancing lift if there's space, and I even think I'd be able to do it safely once in a blue moon. But I recognize it's not in Ceroc's interests to let me).

And if I were a venue manager, the arguments I'm seeing here:


Ceroc is a nanny state!

They're stealing my ability to express myself

Obviously this implies a ban on triple steps

You could get hurt because someone had a sharp fingernail

It's the thin edge of the wedge. If you don't speak up, they'll be banning the first move next.

etc. etc. etc.

would not leave me wanting to accommodate you. On the contrary, they would leave me thinking "If I avoid a blanket ban, and try to enforce reasonable behaviour, it's going to be a complete nightmare. None of these people will accept their behaviour is dangerous, they will keep trying to push the envelope, and they will have a big hissy fit when I tell them off. I'll have people getting upset because X is allowed to do the move and they aren't, and then a month later they'll have another go and say "Oh, but we've learned how to do it properly now". And what's the point of going through all this hassle? So they can do moves that Ceroc doesn't teach and doesn't want to take responsibility for. And it's going to happen all the time - every week I'll be having to have words with people. So I'd rather tell them "No Aerials. Ever", and have it over with. And if people leave, they obviously weren't here for the dancing anyhow".

David Franklin
20th-April-2007, 09:44 PM
There was a prominent sign stating that lifts were no longer permitted at the venue last night. I must admit that a big bold notice saying you can't dance certain moves hit me a little harder than I had anticipated. Seeing that notice glaring down accusingly at me in big ugly black and white text like a sentinel of oppression sinking its twin fangs of autocracy and suppression into my creativity and sucking the freedom and living joy out of it, left me feeling sick to the pit of my stomach :tears:I fear it may be a copyright violation to directly use it, but inspired by the above, I offer the following suggestion for T-Shirts and Banners:

spindr
20th-April-2007, 11:22 PM
Perhaps, in the spirit of compromise the DJ could announce:

The next track is for the numpties to do aerials!
Like the speed round at the icerink.

Then we can all identify the numpties and avoid them during "general" social dancing :)

SpinDr

Trousers
21st-April-2007, 01:45 AM
well Cheshunt still has it's resident aerial department, so no ban in place there then.

But they didn't come near me so I wasn't forced into getting the old Death Glare out to smite them. But i sensed a definite 'show off' tendency as they moved around the room whilst dancing together - obviously to let their public see them.

Oh yeah nearly forgot - as I wasn't numptied and infact had a pretty clear night for having my floor space stolen I had time to notice the nails protruding on the floor in a few places. Grrrrr in fact so Grrrrrr I'm gonna stick this in the feedback on club nights thread well wen I can be arsed to - someone remind me tomorrow

bigdjiver
21st-April-2007, 06:01 AM
... I guess that makes some people who go not adults ... and a whole lot of people that don't go are on the young side too.

I saw a 20 something wearing a pink beginner sticker doing a swan dive and then:
http://www.cerocscotland.com/images/StarLogo.png

I love bounce MJ, Latin MJ, Blues MJ, Fun MJ, and I also follow that star.

Concerned I asked her if she had been alright with that, and she replied that she had loved it, and wanted more.

I told her that beginners should not be doing such moves. She replied that she had done Salsa previously, but liked this more. Against the opinions of the saged old Aerials experts I first put her three visit bright excited joyous eyes.

I add the experience of one more visit from another 20~ who I asked how we could make Ceroc more appealing to the younger generation. "Stop the old folks coming." Ceroc is aging along with its customers.

There is a regular afternoon tea dance in Bedford, mostly attended by the retired. Nobody bumps into anybody, because they all do the same moves at the same time in a circle.

The saged experts got there by a process. When younger they took risks because the pleasure made those risks worth while. It seems to me that, having got their heights they are now seeking to chop up the ladder.

The military at last learned not to dictate tactics by rules, but to rely more on the the commander in the field. No deaf and blind ban, let the venue manager manage.

If you cannot listen to the voice of four-visit youth, perhaps the the gravitas of the supreme court:

"Let the timorous stay at home."

or go to the afternoon tea dance.

Double Trouble
21st-April-2007, 09:17 AM
well Cheshunt still has it's resident aerial department, so no ban in place there then.

But they didn't come near me so I wasn't forced into getting the old Death Glare out to smite them. But i sensed a definite 'show off' tendency as they moved around the room whilst dancing together - obviously to let their public see them.

:yeah: :yeah:

It wasn't as bad as usual. They weren't doing the 'demented helicopter on speed' move (that's the technical term by the way...get me, the expert) but they were still doing moves that were dangerous and selfish. Please don't ask me to be specific, I don't know the names of the moves.

The amusing thing is...everyone watches them doing their clown act on the floor and I'm sure they think everyone is watching because they are good, but everyone is just laughing at them for being the biggest numpties alive.

I had THE perfect opportunity to stamp on girl numpties head as they did some kind of 'simulated arse sex' move with both of them horizontal on the floor, but I thought better of it...too many witnesses.:rolleyes:

Double Trouble
21st-April-2007, 10:38 AM
On a totally unrelated note. I had more trouble dodging flying cake at Cheshunt last night.

Thanks to Gav and Trouble, I got a face full of Birthday cake. How I wished someone was filming our 'Laural and Hardy' style accident. Could have got £250 from Harry Hill for that.:rofl:

firefly
21st-April-2007, 10:55 AM
I add the experience of one more visit from another 20~ who I asked how we could make Ceroc more appealing to the younger generation. "Stop the old folks coming."

I'm sorry BigD, I realise this is off thread but I couldn't just let it pass. One of the things I've loved about ceroc is meeting people from all sorts of backgrounds and walks of life; people of all shapes, sizes, ages, occupations, you-name-it. The common factor is that they all come to dance. Granted some take it more seriously than others, and some come more for the social side, but most people will dance with you if you ask them, and most people will chat to you if you talk to them.

Saying that we should then exclude a proportion of people who get pleasure from this activity, simply to make it more appealing to a proposed target audience, is simply not on in my book. Why should age be a deciding factor in bringing in the fresh blood that I agree should be encouraged? What should the cut-off age be, and who decides? I certainly remember being in my teens and thinking that anyone over 35 was old. Then I grew up a little, and hopefully matured a litttle. Perhaps the person in your quote will find they do the same at some point :cool:

I'm sorry, I realise I'm ranting rather here, but I just find society's notion of youth as some sort of holy grail, and the consequent discounting of age, experience and wisdom, rather sticks in the throat. :(

Declaration of Interest: the above comes from the perspective of someone who has not yet left their twenties, has been dancing ceroc for a year and has tried a number of other dance styles.

Getting back vaguely on thread, I have been put into aerials a couple of times, and I agree it is exhilirating, but find I get as much pleasure from following a well-led move that keeps my feet on the floor. Bonus points if it is unexpected; a well-timed foot sweep definitely puts a smile on my face :D :waycool:

Apologies for the long post and hijacking the thread. Normal service will now be resumed...

BTW bigdjiver all this wasn't aimed at you personally. I hope you take my comments in the spirit they were intended :flower:

onkar
21st-April-2007, 11:41 AM
On a totally unrelated note. I had more trouble dodging flying cake at Cheshunt last night.

Thanks to Gav and Trouble, I got a face full of Birthday cake. How I wished someone was filming our 'Laural and Hardy' style accident. Could have got £250 from Harry Hill for that.:rofl:

Perhaps Ceroc should introduce a ban on flying cake facials!

Onkar

Trousers
21st-April-2007, 01:25 PM
Have Ceroc just missed the target here.

folllow me while I ramble. . .

We all know a good Air Step, Well Lead, Performed with Style is a glorious thing to behold - David and Lily a case in point in our midst to name but one couple. They can also be fun to learn and experience when done correctly.

We also know a dangerous situation when we see one and you probably like me cringe when you do see one.


Now. . .
Air Steps being big and flashy are obviously noticable and if we are honest about this they are intrinsically more dangerous than normal moves because of feet being off the floor. It's a fact!

It is also a fact that some people can do these moves in a confident and seemingly safe manner. Simon R had a minor tantrum about how he was capable of these and should be allowed to do them - He is capable without a doubt But then so are David and Lilly but I've never seen them doing Air step in a social dance.

It is another well reported fact that most dancers of Jive have no idea where they are on the dance floor or the other couples around them. Floor awareness quite frankly is dire - everywhere - even venues like Ashtons and Hipsters where the clientele tends toward the confident end of the spectrum.

So disregarding personal levels of skill of the combatants, a couple in a social dance that wish to do air steps are infact performing dangerous moves - (at least more dangerous than the people around them) on a dance floor where no one really knows where the others are going have been or are infact currently dancing. No one in their right mind would be able to convince an outsider that that was infact a SAFE action.

Ok still with me I hope. . .there's a But coming. . .

But we acknowlege the fact that we are taking part in a contact sport. There are elements of danger in what we do and we accept this.
So there we are we accept it is dangerous (to some degree) and we still partake but we try to dance safely and with awarness of those around us. The Air Move people must also acknowlege that they wish to do things that are marginally more dangerous and thus need to be more aware of the people and conditions around them.

That all seems absolutley fair and proper to me but that is what ought to happen.

Having said all that I'm certain that we all will acknowlege, I hope at least, that we have started moves that we've suddenly realised were great for the musicality say, but in the space that is available were a mistake and someone got bumped. It happens just like that and we are trying to be safe remember!.

The crux!

Unfortunately there are people that don't follow the same rules - they don't dance with thought for their partners and those around them and do moves that for the time and place are inappropriate. This is now when dancing starts to get actually dangerous. A badly timed and performed dip is as bad as a badly performed air step and CAN (may not always - that is the bad luck side) cause injury.

So after rambling on Is this the thing that Ceroc or any dancehall should be looking to stamp out. Purely Dangerous dancing?

Should we the average dancer on an average night be able to go to the franchise manager and say 'that man/lady is not dancing safely' and should this be taken seriously by the manager monitoring the floor and responding with some form of action. A word with the culprit or asking them to leave - what ever is appropriate at the time.

I feel this approach would be better for the ceroc company (not that I care for that) but also for the punters because they will see action - there are rarely individuals that complain about things like that that do not have silent majority support from the other dancers. But there are only the few that feel strongly enough to actually verbalise a complaint.


Just saying Air moves are banned does not resolve the safety on the floor issue but it does in general get the franchise manager away from occaisionally having to lay down the law. Maybe the managers should just get some balls and be open and responsive (where it's fair and valid to do so).


A lot of you know me, I ain't really good, I hope I lead clearly, I rarely dip the girls, I even less rarely would ever consider an airstep (and it would only be a 1st move jump or star jump even then), I get a right cob on when someone steals my floor space (:blush: ), I'm pretty normal I hope.

But I hate to see unsafe dancers - These are the Numpties.

Lets have ceroc and all the other companies say "Unsafe dancing will not be tolerated at this venue" from their stages and lets see them acting on that afterwards.



Tolstoy was a pussy! This writing Sh|t is easy!

bedforddipper
21st-April-2007, 02:42 PM
I hope Ceroc will now change their logo, I have my own design company can I please supply a new one???
Digressing briefly - re oldies, BDjiver, although a TOG like myself(you have to be a Radio 2 fan to understand that one), keep coming, I do know the younger ladies and beginners love dancing with you, they feel safe.
We could of course bring in some section of the discrimination act - i am sure there could be a case!! Good press for Ceroc??

Right back to where we should be - if Ceroc do ban lifts/aerials/drops etc etc. there will not be a mass exodus of dancers but I would bet over a fairly short period of time other dance organisations would seize the opportunity and welcome those dancers. Remember Ceroc does NOT have a monopoly.
:yeah:

CJ
21st-April-2007, 04:43 PM
Have Ceroc just missed the target here.
Some sensible stuff... from Trousers

(and about bloody time, too!!!) Can't rep U, but did try...:sick:

And here is the crux...

No-one likes being dictated to, or blanket (ill-considered) bans.
Numpties are the problem.
We need to educate dancers. The concensus (sp?) is that independents do this better than Ceroc, I think, but can Ceroc not start doing this?!?:confused:

If we are gong to ban dangerous dancing without tackling numpties, drops will be next; then dips; then walking moves....
(can anyone find the... "First they came for the *minotiy group*, but I did not speak up. Then they came for the *next minority*, etc, etc" quote, please??:flower: )

Imagine Twyford, first 10 minutes, no-one on the floor, punters arriving and changing shoes, etc, Simon and Nicole giving it wellie and an aerial is dictated by the music. But, won't happen because of 21st Century H&S bull$hit thinking!!

It feels wrong to take away punters' choices, but it feels the wrong approach also, as it won't solve dangerous dancing.

And, to be fair, that's the one we'd all love to see stopped.

onkar
21st-April-2007, 04:47 PM
I suggest those of you who oppose a ban try to work out some set of rules that you think are workable. You might want to bear in mind the following:


Nobody does an aerial thinking that they are being dangerous, so telling them that they are is not going to go down well.
Who's going to decide what's dangerous? Most venue managers or teachers don't have the expertise.
We are talking about risk management here. Solutions that involve banning someone after they've dropped someone on their head do not help here - the damage is done.
What is the justification for having aerials in Ceroc? When I started Ceroc, maybe 1 couple in a thousand did aerials on a social floor, so there's a lot of evidence that Ceroc can do just fine without them.
The "it inspires people" argument works both ways. We all know of accidents where someone has seen a (practiced) couple do an aerial, though "hey cool, I'll copy that!" and ended up injured.


When you form your arguments, it would be sensible to think of what is going to make sense to a venue manager (and to Ceroc as a whole), rather than what makes sense to you. You might also want to consider DavidB's thoughts (very roughly: "the average venue is 10 times too crowded for doing social aerials safely"), seeing as he is by a long way the top aerials expert in MJ, and Ceroc probably should have some justification for ignoring his advice on safety.

I would actually like to see a workable solution, I just don't see it happening. But I have to be honest, to a very large extent, all I'm seeing here is "I want to be able to do this, so Ceroc should let me". (Heck, I want to be able to do the Dirty Dancing lift if there's space, and I even think I'd be able to do it safely once in a blue moon. But I recognize it's not in Ceroc's interests to let me).

And if I were a venue manager, the arguments I'm seeing here:


Ceroc is a nanny state!

They're stealing my ability to express myself

Obviously this implies a ban on triple steps

You could get hurt because someone had a sharp fingernail

It's the thin edge of the wedge. If you don't speak up, they'll be banning the first move next.

etc. etc. etc.

would not leave me wanting to accommodate you. On the contrary, they would leave me thinking "If I avoid a blanket ban, and try to enforce reasonable behaviour, it's going to be a complete nightmare. None of these people will accept their behaviour is dangerous, they will keep trying to push the envelope, and they will have a big hissy fit when I tell them off. I'll have people getting upset because X is allowed to do the move and they aren't, and then a month later they'll have another go and say "Oh, but we've learned how to do it properly now". And what's the point of going through all this hassle? So they can do moves that Ceroc doesn't teach and doesn't want to take responsibility for. And it's going to happen all the time - every week I'll be having to have words with people. So I'd rather tell them "No Aerials. Ever", and have it over with. And if people leave, they obviously weren't here for the dancing anyhow".



I love watching aerials, and have recently started practicing them after doing a few workshops over the past year. Andy & Tas at Rockbottoms were particularly good teachers.

Although I do not like the decision Ceroc has made, I can understand why. Although all the sensible suggestions that Aerial fans are suggesting sound good in theory, the simply fact is there are too many numbties , who would not follow basic safety measures. Many numbties would copy a move without any training, and total disregard for the safety of their partner, and surrounding dancers.

I have been a venue manager, seen people who I considered dangerous, and despite me talking to them quietly and then rather forceably, they still continued their inconsiderate moves. BTW the moves were drops and dips being performed on beginner ladies rather than aerials.

Onkar

onkar
21st-April-2007, 05:03 PM
And, I'd say that it should be one strike, and you're out. No more warnings. Do it again, and be told that you're no longer welcome to attend Ceroc evenings.

My experience of dangerous dancers, as been they will quite often ignore warnings. I myself have given warnings to a character like the one Trampy mentions, but in Cambridge. Experienced ladies always refused dances with him. So he targeted beginners. I wanted him banned, but getting backing was quite difficult and eventually he moved to another venue.

Personally I think Ceroc should give venue managers the power to ban anyone they consider dangerous.

Onkar

Trouble
21st-April-2007, 05:55 PM
After being at Cheshunt last night, i can honestly say i think this banning of aerials is all a big poo hoo about nothing. The couple my sister are going on about (lovely as im sure they are) were still doing aerials, all be it mini ones and nobody said a word. Im sure this will continue with them and with other people. One thing i did notice was, the drops that some people do are just as dangerous. I actually almost tripped over somebodys feet while she was laying on the floor having a shoulder drop or whatever its called, i also noticed some idiot doing the splits whilst being dropped then jumping up into some sort of kick flick. Funny as hell but extremely dangerous.

So my questions would be;

1, The Dj would have prime postion to see these aerials mini or otherwise but said nothing - why not.
2, who would tell them or any couples doing them if there were aerials being carried out. I certainly would not want to tell anyone to stop. the cheshunt night is run by women, this could turn nasty, is that a risk in itself.

bedforddipper
21st-April-2007, 06:18 PM
I'm totally with you Onka!

I wonder if Ceroc senior (mismanagement) could bother to contact all their franchisee's who in turn could ask their venue mangers how many couples actually perform aerials, I can think of 3 where i reguarly dance and nearly all with the same partner and more to the point how many aerials do those couples do in an evening? I am fairly fit and I doubt if i do more than two or three in a whole evening!

My concern, if reading all the comments made here come into force, will be that any form of lift, jump, drop, lean will be banned.

I, as my name suggests enjoy doing dips & drops. Without being conceited (although someone will say i am) I know that their are a number of women who like me to perform dips and drops with them. I enjoy it, they enjoy it. I ALWAYS ask an unfamiliar dance partner whether they like/can do those moves, not only for their own safety but mine - I do not want to damage MY back, or any other part of my anatonomy!!

How about Education! Education! Education! with a small amount of common sense thrown in!! Of course being an oldie we have that - the advantages of age!!

Of course we could all go to our local venue and :worthy: to Ceroc!

NZ Monkey
22nd-April-2007, 12:58 AM
Nobody does an aerial thinking that they are being dangerous, so telling them that they are is not going to go down well.

I think this is really the crux of the issue.

There is a blanket ban on aerials on the social floor in my home studio here in Auckland. Despite that I can think of at least two people who still do them from time to time. One is the classic stereotype of aerials ''expert'', and the other is a very good and respected teacher (who does only do them with his long-standing dance partner and girlfriend....). If I were to wander up to them and tell them they were being dangerous I doubt either would listen to me, for different reasons. If the venue owner did the same I doubt the message would stick for longer then three or four weeks before they fell back into old habits.

If Ceroc ruled that everyone needed to wear deodorant to classes and freestyle and kicked up a big fuss about it, most people would make the effort until the venue managers stopped pointing it out constantly. Once that happens the less considerate will probably start forgetting or stop caring as they feel they can get away with it again. That's human nature I'm afraid.

It seems to me that applying a blanket ban would work until the ban is no longer at front of everyone's thoughts. Then the inconsiderate and/or super confident will begin doing things the way they think it should be done again.

I'm not disagreeing that a blanket ban isn't the best way forward to prevent injury though. I think it would need to go a step further still. Remove aerials from Ceroc altogether. No more specialist divisions on the champs, no more use in the higher freestyle divisions, no more workshops, no more cabarets featuring them.... in short, remove the incentives that make people want to* do them in the first place. At them moment I think that Ceroc** sends mixed messages on the issue.

It'd make for a safer environment, but I'd also consider it to be a sad day for Ceroc. I guess that makes me a bad person. Oh well.:(

*and able to, to a certain extent.

**Ceroc(TM). The people who can be classed as experts usually don't, but how many of the aerial culprits actually interact with them...?

dave the scaffolder
22nd-April-2007, 12:58 PM
I think this is really the crux of the issue.
I'm not disagreeing that a blanket ban isn't the best way forward to prevent injury though. I think it would need to go a step further still. Remove aerials from Ceroc altogether. No more specialist divisions on the champs, no more use in the higher freestyle divisions, no more workshops, no more cabarets featuring them.... in short, remove the incentives that make people want to* do them in the first place. At them moment I think that Ceroc** sends mixed messages on the issue.

It'd make for a safer environment, but I'd also consider it to be a sad day for Ceroc. I guess that makes me a bad person. Oh well.:(

*and able to, to a certain extent.

**Ceroc(TM). The people who can be classed as experts usually don't, but how many of the aerial culprits actually interact with them...?

This is the meat and veg of this whole debate

CEROC taught the ariels in the first place.

If Ceroc did not teach them we would not do them.


Clear as mud xxx xxx

Trousers
22nd-April-2007, 10:21 PM
Clear as mud xxx xxx

You mean 'Even Blind Freddy could see that!' (for our antipodean friends)

However Mr Folder. . . .

did Ceroc teach You (thats the royal you and not really you as I have never met you, seen you, bought you a drink or watched you dance with my bird), to dance dangeously and without thought for the people around you.

Hmmmm S'hit I knew that argument was flawed I just realised they never teach you not to.

Damn bugger bum Buck n Follocks

David Franklin
23rd-April-2007, 12:27 AM
CEROC taught the ariels in the first place.

If Ceroc did not teach them we would not do them.In ten years of classes, the only aerials I have seen Ceroc teach are the first move jump, the hip-hop, and the star jump (other than one aerials workshop by Ceroc Metro; the moves I remember Adam teaching were the supergirl and an assisted cartwheel but there were one or two others).

So in contrast to your statement, I would say at least 90% of the aerials I see people do on a social floor are moves I have never seen taught at Ceroc. (And that's including the moves I saw taught at the CerocMetro workshop).

This is probably moot, however, as (assuming the ban stays), I am sure Ceroc will completely stop teaching aerials in the future.

@Trousers: pretty much any aerials class I've been to has emphasised the moves should not be performed on a social floor (occasionally adding "unless there is plenty of space"), and you should only do the moves with someone you've practiced them with previously. Of course, the numpties ignore both pieces of advice...

Ghost
23rd-April-2007, 12:33 PM
1, The Dj would have prime postion to see these aerials mini or otherwise but said nothing - why not.
2, who would tell them or any couples doing them if there were aerials being carried out. I certainly would not want to tell anyone to stop. the cheshunt night is run by women, this could turn nasty, is that a risk in itself.
Ok some of the London geeks will recognise the name "Labyrinthe". They had to switch their insurance a few years ago. Despite several decades of no claims their insurance went through the roof (so high in fact they also had to ban certain things).

The problem is that society is getting more letigious. The "have you had an accident in the last 3 years that wasn't your fault. Call now and we'll sue them for you for a no-win no-fee" type adverts are becoming increasingly common. If any injury from an aerial puts you off work for a month, that's probably going to run to £1,000s.

So I'm gueesing Ceroc has the same choice as Labyrinthe. Keep aerials but pass on the costs. Anyone willing to pay £50 a night so people can do aerials? Or keep the prices as they are but ban aerials. I'm guessing it probably wasn't a difficult decision.

It's the next bit which is interesting. Ceroc is hardly new. Yet the culture exists where people do dangerous aerials on the dance floor. This is because venue operators and punters simply haven't done enough to stop it.

Aerials are gone and I doubt they'll be back. However if you don't want drops and dips to go at the next insurance review, consider either mentioning to the staff about people who are doing them dangerously / incompetently or the people themselves. Staff watch the punters, explain to them about floorcraft, not flinging yourself backwards etc.

dave the scaffolder
23rd-April-2007, 02:31 PM
In ten years of classes, the only aerials I have seen Ceroc teach are the first move jump, the hip-hop, and the star jump (other than one aerials workshop by Ceroc Metro; the moves I remember Adam teaching were the supergirl and an assisted cartwheel but there were one or two others).

So in contrast to your statement, I would say at least 90% of the aerials I see people do on a social floor are moves I have never seen taught at Ceroc. (And that's including the moves I saw taught at the CerocMetro workshop).

This is probably moot, however, as (assuming the ban stays), I am sure Ceroc will completely stop teaching aerials in the future.

@Trousers: pretty much any aerials class I've been to has emphasised the moves should not be performed on a social floor (occasionally adding "unless there is plenty of space"), and you should only do the moves with someone you've practiced them with previously. Of course, the numpties ignore both pieces of advice...

Aye aye dont get me wrong i am all for the ban on aerials as i believe if done correctly they look great, however if done badly they are a nightmare.

Cereoc does need to clarify this situation and strongly enforce the ban. XXX XX

Trousers
23rd-April-2007, 02:39 PM
:yeah:
Me Too!

Me Too!



However I do think Dangerous Dancing should be targeted urgently. There being more Numpties in that category that just the Aerial Numpties.

CJ
23rd-April-2007, 03:28 PM
:yeah:
Me Too!
However I do think Dangerous Dancing should be targeted urgently. There being more Numpties in that category that just the Aerial Numpties.

Me, too.

BUT, it shoud be numpties, not moves, that are banned...

frodo
23rd-April-2007, 03:50 PM
:yeah:

It is an insurance thing:flower:
While I'd be happy to see an aerials ban, given the similar claim that membership cards are an insurance thing, it probably has less credibility than it otherwise would have.

Simon r
23rd-April-2007, 03:50 PM
Several drops allow the partner to freefall which in my opinion is far more likely to cause injuries.

Still agree they should not be done on a social dance floor but would like to keep facts rather than fiction.




It is also a fact that some people can do these moves in a confident and seemingly safe manner. Simon R had a minor tantrum about how he was capable of these and should be allowed to do them - He is capable without a doubt But then so are David and Lilly but I've never seen them doing Air step in a social dance.


Read my post quoted

Simon r
23rd-April-2007, 04:24 PM
So Simon. I've read through everything you have written so far and riveting as it all is I still dont see what you think the answer is.

I for one am sick and tired of having to give up a quarter of the dance floor cos' two of the most annoying people insist on doing aerials ALL THE FEKKIN TIME at Cheshunt. The organisers are too spineless to tell them to stop and its not up to the punters to have the uncomfortable discussion with them.

A total ban is the only way forward as far as i am concerned.

I don't speak as someone who is an expert on aerials like you:rolleyes: more as someone who doesn't want to give up valuable floor space to idiots who look crap and don't care if they annoy everyone else, but more importantly have no concern for their own or anyone elses safety.

What do you propose? And can you keep it short please, I'm going dancing tonight.:flower:I am no air step expert; I would never say that I was. I have worked hard and understand the technical difficulty that these moves take and understand why a lot of people really like to learn them. Purely for the satisfaction it gives on accomplishing the move.

Mini Air steps should be taught in very small workshops only not at weekenders to unqualified couples (beginners or early intermediates). I would suggest this should be assessed by the teacher who they are booking on to the course for.

Air steps should be taught one to one by qualified teachers who really understand the moves.

Each move should be given a rating of acceptable in social dance or not such as the E.G. very small air steps.
There is a rating on a lot of Ceroc moves that clearly states not suitable for teaching in classes but ok for workshops, so really this would not take much work

All others are for performance or exhibition purposes only.

My opinion only, I have no responsibility or voice within Ceroc rules so would imagine it would be up to head office what method they want to enforce.

No one likes face to face confrontation which is why I believe they are trying to make a global ban; this would stop hostilities at venues.

I was told to announce the ban last week but seems strange others are still allowing it and that when someone spoke to Ceroc head office that Alex said there was no ban.

Double Trouble
23rd-April-2007, 04:31 PM
Each move should be given a rating of acceptable in social dance

You cant police that, so it wont work.



I was told to announce the ban last week but seems strange others are still allowing it and that when someone spoke to Ceroc head office that Alex said there was no ban.


Yep, they are still at it. Where does the buck stop? Who is responsible if there is an accident, when there is a ban in place, but numpty is ignoring it/doesn't know about it/has not been told to stop doing it?

TurboTomato
23rd-April-2007, 05:17 PM
Was at Woking on Saturday night and witnessed someone leading an aerial and was not impressed at all http://www.vx220.org.uk/forums/style_emoticons/default/thumbsdowngraemlin.gif. Was a busy dancefloor and the move involved swinging the lady round 360 degrees (or more) whilst holding the upper torso area (couldn't see where exactly) so she would have both feet off the ground, swinging round in quite a large radius with her feet pointing slightly out (maybe those who are familiar with these moves could suggest what it was). She had rather large heels on and this was within a couple of feet of other dancers. One catch of that heel would have been very painful. As I say - not impressed. There's a time and a place, and that wasn't it.

Edit: to actually answer the question I'm not sure they should be banned outright, as I say they have a time and a place. Perhaps they should be taught with more emphasis on when you can do them as well as how and tighter policing by organisers?

bigdjiver
23rd-April-2007, 05:23 PM
...Yep, they are still at it. Where does the buck stop? Who is responsible if there is an accident, when there is a ban in place, but numpty is ignoring it/doesn't know about it/has not been told to stop doing it?One of the points I was trying to make. Ice skating rinks try to take the position that they just supply safe ice. They tell people that there are dangers involved, and that it is the responsibility of the skaters to skate safely and to look out for their own safety.

It seems from my lay reading that if the organiser provides any safety rules or equipment that it their responsibilty that those rules are enforced and that the equipment is not faulty. So if a venue just lets you dance and you get concussion from an accident that is your own fault, that is your problem. If they had supplied you with a defective crash helmet then they become potentially liable.

Oddly, it seems that a Circus that insists that its trapeze artists and tightrope walkers use safety equipment then they could be at greater danger of an action being taken against them if an accident occurs. e.g. No net, they die, no liability, but if they bounce out of a safety net and suffer a career ending fracture they could be liable.

killingtime
23rd-April-2007, 05:38 PM
Edit: to actually answer the question I'm not sure they should be banned outright, as I say they have a time and a place. Perhaps they should be taught with more emphasis on when you can do them as well as how and tighter policing by organisers?

The problem is that you can teach this as much as you like and people will still ignore it. I've never been taught any (serious) aerials but I probably could badly guess at what goes into them and give one a go anyway. When I started I was interested in learning aerials but as much with my decline in wanting to know "every move that has ever been made" my interest in aerials also waned. I get the excitement factor of them but after pondering points made here I have to say that I'm fine with them being banned at social events.

Gus
23rd-April-2007, 08:18 PM
Mini Air steps should be taught in very small workshops only not at weekenders to unqualified couples (beginners or early intermediates). I would suggest this should be assessed by the teacher who they are booking on to the course for.

Air steps should be taught one to one by qualified teachers who really understand the moves.And ther-in lies the rub. Who is qualified to teach air steps? Are CTA qualified to teach by courtesy of being CTA .... I would say no (FWIW :sick: ). The training CTA receive is prefectly adequate for teaching 'moves'. Drops and aerials are a different matter. Some CTA have accumulated enough expertise to do so, but they are the excpetion rather than the rule. HOWEVER ... its the amateur independants ("yesterday I was a dnacer, today I'm a teacher") who are the biggest risk. They attract new dancers and try to look more impressive by teaching 'flash moves' ... and they fundamentally don't understand that just because they can do it ... it doesn't mean that they can safely teach Joe Public.

There IS a place for big drops and air steps ... but there is a strong force of argument that that is NOT the social dance floor .... besides which, can you remeber the last time you heard a track that begs for an air step? :rolleyes:

TheTramp
23rd-April-2007, 08:25 PM
e.g. No net, they die, no liability

Don't be silly.

TurboTomato
23rd-April-2007, 10:38 PM
The problem is that you can teach this as much as you like and people will still ignore it.

That is a very good point unfortunately. I moderate and admin on another car forum and the little beasts can be very tricky in the wet, and you have to treat them with a lot of respect. Thing is rather like the aerials, you can tell people to drive like a granny in the wet until you're blue in the face, but the majority don't listen until they have their 'moment' and either smack the car up or get away with it and come away with a lot more respect for the car. So I agree with you, can't see any harm banning them at social events.

Stuart M
23rd-April-2007, 10:59 PM
There IS a place for big drops and air steps ... but there is a strong force of argument that that is NOT the social dance floor .... besides which, can you remeber the last time you heard a track that begs for an air step? :rolleyes:
As a corollary to Gus' question, can anyone remember when (choreographed routines aside) they saw an airstep performed with any degree of musicality?

LMC
23rd-April-2007, 11:53 PM
One of the points I was trying to make. Ice skating rinks try to take the position that they just supply safe ice. They tell people that there are dangers involved, and that it is the responsibility of the skaters to skate safely and to look out for their own safety.
Same with dancing, same with any other physical activity - there are inherent risks. However, aerials are inherently more risky.


So if a venue just lets you dance and you get concussion from an accident that is your own fault, that is your problem.
Even if it was another couple falling on your head while you and your partner were dancing safely? I don't think so.

Raul
24th-April-2007, 12:13 AM
I believe this is for insurance purposes and yes this includes all mini airials as well.
The ban is for all Ceroc venues, surrounding rooms and car parks. If you need to practice your airials then you need to hire a studio to practice.

the ban does not include the Ceroc champs.

This is based on the information i was given to announce.

If it is for insurance purposes, then you can do the aerials inside your car in the carpark and Ceroc would not be responsible for you.

I suggest that all those who really have the urge to do these moves try this.

StokeBloke
24th-April-2007, 12:27 AM
You know what. It's pointless even discussing this. Nothing that is said here will have any effect on Mike Ellard et al - if Ceroc want to ban aerials it is their prerogative, they run the venues. Personally I would like to see a change in attitude towards better education for dancers of all levels (about responsibilities, respect, consent, floor-craft...), thus promoting the safety of us all. But this seems to just mark me out as some form of freak around here. The only thing that discussing the ban does, is highlight how stupid any such knee-jerk ban is. This in turn just makes me feel even more exasperated, and even less like Ceroc are in touch with what is really important... like dancer safety.

Still.... ring ring ring on those cash registers.... there's plenty of newbies out there who won't give a hoot about the ethics of banning some of the founding moves of Jive. May the fleas of a thousand camels infest any one's armpits who rubber stamps this dumbing down of expressive Jive dancing.

Raul
24th-April-2007, 01:50 AM
You know what. It's pointless even discussing this. Nothing that is said here will have any effect on Mike Ellard et al#

The only thing that discussing the ban does, is highlight how stupid any such knee-jerk ban is#

. This in turn just makes me feel even more exasperated, and even less like Ceroc are in touch with what is really important... like dancer safety.#

Still.... ring ring ring on those cash registers..#

.. there's plenty of newbies out there who won't give a hoot about the ethics of banning some of the founding moves of Jive. May the fleas of a thousand camels infest any one's armpits who rubber stamps this dumbing down of expressive Jive dancing.


I have tried to read the whole thread before replying, but it is taking very long and i apologise if i repeat what has already been said.

The comments above are very common. They repeat the usual rants against Ceroc and bemoan restrictions to freedom of dance expression whilst demanding dancer safety. Reality is a little more complicated than that.

The fact is that an accident HAS happenned with serious consequences. Ceroc has legal responsibilities and dancers should be aware that they do too, not as much from a legal point of view, but certainly from a moral one. The incident will be on record and the insurers will have taken note. Should any other accident happen, the organisation involved will find it much harder this time to explain why they have not taken all reasonable precautions to prevent it. Warning notices, bans, expulsions etc. will be the way of demonstrating that reasonable precautions are in place. In my opinion independent organisations who think that they will benefit from the restrictions within Ceroc are mistaken as they will be subject to the same criteria as the Accident is a known event within the dancing community.

In my humble opinion the jive organisations should not be looking at only Aerials but also at other potentially dangerous activities within social dancing.
A perfect example is drops where the follower's head is hovering 6 inches from the floor and offering a perfect target to a miskick. Firstly we as dancers and secondly Ceroc as an organisation should make sure that no new serious accidents, but unfortunately we as people are very fallible in our judgements and whether we like the "Big Brother" approach or not Ceroc do have to account for what happens to its dancers and any legal liability to victim would be based on the negligence to do what was necessary. Individual dancers can always plead ignorance to try and escape legal responsibility but would have to live with the knowledge that they knew.

Dancing is fun, it is more than fun, it is the celebration of life. We have to do what it takes to keep it fun. It is like any other activity. If we go skying, we take insurance in case we break our legs, if we have sex we wear a condom, if we ride a bike we wear a helmet and have insurance in case we kill somebody else. So why is it that whenever we mention sensibility there are cries of fascism big brother and restrictions of rights? We do not have to take insurance like we do when playing golf, we don't have to stay in our own houses to smoke like they do in Wales. I do not want my dancing partner or myself to be the person who accidentally step on someone's face when they are dropped next to us. We all grin and bear at the elbows in the back and the trodding on feet and ankles, that's part of the game.
But if you want to do any serious non-group activities - get a room!
and if you think that you are good at it and you are both exhibitionists, enter a Competition.

Trousers
24th-April-2007, 10:03 AM
. . . . {notreallypayingattentionsnip} knee-jerk ban {shockedendofsnip}. . . . .

Oh complete toss!

They've banned the Knee Jerk Too?


They'll be banning vest tops soon. . .

ermm


. . . . . . . . . .hey erm. . .



. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Stuff the Air Steps BAN VESTS!


A wholey better ban!

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 10:21 AM
I am having difficulty finding the time to research this topic properly.

Meanwhile there is a current thread on rec.art.dance with some humour in it.

Negligent Dancing Lawsuit in Chicago ... - rec.arts.dance | Google Groups (http://tinyurl.com/2mrgbu)

stewart38
24th-April-2007, 10:51 AM
:yeah: to all of the above. I would happily sign a disclaimer if it meant I could carry on doing aerials - I love 'em! And anyway, what's the use in practicing them in a private studio if you're never going to dance them (unless you enter a competition, which I doubt I will)? I like to do them because they're fun (as well as because I'm a show-off ... yeah, I'll admit it!). Of course, I love all the other stuff, but to know I'll never be able to do an arial again ... :tears:



See you in the Ariel champs in London, unless your not good enough to do them ? Only two entrance last year ,why was that ? you like them there fun why not compete ?




It is my guess that there is a significant percentage of Ceroc addicts that came for that adrenalin rush associated with the more vigorous activity and that hint of danger. I suspect that percentage are more committed to MJ than the average member. It does seem to me that Ceroc is aging along with its members, management and crew. It is becoming slower and safer. My guess is that that change in ethos is taking it further away from the younger generation that we might hope to attract. I cannot remember when I last heard "I am getting too old for this".


Might have some credence as said two entrance in the National championships last year for Ariel’s ? I seem to remember a few more entrance years gone by. Maybe the old bones creak too much. Now where is that blues room :whistle:






I strongly suspect that what we have here with Ceroc is the fear of being sued, knee jerk reaction to that fear can result in dumbing down and ridiculous restrictions that simply aren't needed. If Ceroc want support and acceptance for this ban then let's hear about some ACTUAL court cases and case law that has resulted in the insurers themselves imposing a restriction.

Lets see im a ceroc Underwriter and look at the claims experience year on year and its running fine then I see , oh this potential claim .God this could be repeated if there are enough arseholes out there. So ill ask questions and restrict or increase premium by 500%. Makes sense to me. Ps we would exclude claims arsing from etc not ‘ban it’. I see my old company insured ‘ceroc’ in the 90s

Trousers
24th-April-2007, 10:55 AM
. . . . research. . . . . .properly.. . . . . . .

Wibble


Research . . . and . . .Properly?


I can feel a Peter Kay moment approaching. . . . .






You do research - ? Gosh I just use my own opinions in here!

spindr
24th-April-2007, 11:02 AM
I am having difficulty finding the time to research this topic properly.

Meanwhile there is a current thread on rec.art.dance with some humour in it.

Negligent Dancing Lawsuit in Chicago ... - rec.arts.dance | Google Groups (http://tinyurl.com/2mrgbu)
One with a lot less humour. (http://golgi.ana.ed.ac.uk/Swing/warning.html)

SpinDr

LMC
24th-April-2007, 11:13 AM
One with a lot less humour. (http://golgi.ana.ed.ac.uk/Swing/warning.html)

SpinDr

Immodest cough (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/363109-post93.html)

Of course it would be "nice" if there was more education on safety, floorcraft, considerate dancing, blah blah blah. However, that wouldn't be "fun" :rolleyes: - it is a disappointment that the Ceroc teaching model doesn't include more of this in the script. However, there's already enough horror stories on this thread to prove that there will always be some people who think that the rules only apply to other people, poor limited beings that they are.

A blanket ban is the only way forward. And I suspect that most of the independents will follow suit in fairly short order - especially if the Ceroc numpties emigrate.

For those who want to continue doing aerials on a social dance floor, you just don't seem to be getting the "consideration for others". Get your own room.

fletch
24th-April-2007, 11:26 AM
Oh complete toss!

They've banned the Knee Jerk Too?


They'll be banning vest tops soon. . .

ermm


. . . . . . . . . .hey erm. . .



. . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .Stuff the Air Steps BAN VESTS!


A wholey better ban!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


what about shorts and socks :confused:

has this been discussed before:confused: it might make a good discussion point :rofl:

Trousers
24th-April-2007, 11:45 AM
:. . . . {ohnutsnowyouvedoneitsnip} it might make a good discussion point :rofl:{unsnip}

Anyone wanna hazard a guess to how long it will be before the unwanted thread cut is performed?

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 11:50 AM
One with a lot less humour. (http://golgi.ana.ed.ac.uk/Swing/warning.html)

SpinDrThat, and other sad stories, have already been mentioned in this debate, as has one case where someone died just doing normal social dance.

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 11:55 AM
Dancing whilst intoxicated is dangerous - ban alcohol and venues, and deny access to people who have been drinking?
I have seen three heavy falls attempting double spins - ban those?
Ban travelling moves?
Ban dips and drops?
yada, yada ....

TheTramp
24th-April-2007, 12:02 PM
Dancing whilst intoxicated is dangerous - ban alcohol and venues, and deny access to people who have been drinking?
I have seen three heavy falls attempting double spins - ban those?
Ban travelling moves?
Ban dips and drops?
yada, yada ....

Oh. Come on. At least make a reasonable argument....

It's about minimising the risks. Even you have to agree that aerials are inherently dangerous. Whereas, while you can indeed get hurt when spinning, and you can get hurt by drinking, neither have the same level of inherent danger.

And, if you are going to make spurious arguments, I will too. Go, get drunk, then ride a motorbike, without a helmet, up and down your local high street at 120mph. Then, when the police come to arrest you, point at the young kid on a scooter, and say that they can't possibly arrest you for what you're doing, while he's allowed to be doing that - and on the pavement as well! :flower:

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 12:22 PM
As a corollary to Gus' question, can anyone remember when (choreographed routines aside) they saw an airstep performed with any degree of musicality?Bedforddipper and Fran always had an enthusiastic audience. They were mostly practising, but occassionally gave us a real dance :clap:

I do no recall their names, but the aerials champs from a few years back dance at Bedford from time to time.:clap:

Michaella & Russell and Emma P. & partner at Kettering were mostly practicing new moves, but also did some dancing to the music when they had the moves right.:clap:
Alex and a demo at Wellingborough was all musicality.:clap:

I never saw anything but minimal risk to themselves in any of these examples, and no danger to others at all.

At some Ceroc Central events we do have the space. I have often helped to move 40 or so tables at Wellingborough freestyles to ensure that we do.

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 12:35 PM
Oh. Come on. At least make a reasonable argument....

It's about minimising the risks. Even you have to agree that aerials are inherently dangerous. That is my point, it is about minimising risk, not eliminating it. In Strictly come dancing we had the spectacle of a dance champion and the partner they had trained, alone on the dance floor, being involved in an accident that drew blood.

Dancing has inherent dangers.


Whereas, while you can indeed get hurt when spinning, I have seen three heavy falls, which only by luck did not involve others. My lay diagnosis of one result would be concussion. She went off to hospital.


and you can get hurt by drinking, neither have the same level of inherent danger.You are talking to the Father of an alcoholic, dead at 32 after a drunken dispute.

straycat
24th-April-2007, 12:35 PM
I have often helped to move 40 or so tables at Wellingborough freestyles to ensure that we do.

Hope you got their consent before you lifted them. :whistle:

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 12:56 PM
<TABLE class=tborder id=post364277 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1 id=td_post_364277 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff 1px solid">Re: New Ceroc Aerial Rules?<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
<HR style="COLOR: #ffffff" SIZE=1><!-- google_ad_section_start -->
Quote:
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by bigdjiver http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/images/orange_buttons_basic/viewpost.gif (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/12193-new-ceroc-aerial-rules-12.html#post364268)
I have often helped to move 40 or so tables at Wellingborough freestyles to ensure that we do.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Hope you got their consent before you lifted them. :whistle::rofl:

Broken legs? I know nothing about broken legs. :whistle: <!-- google_ad_section_end -->



</TD></TR><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: #ffffff 1px solid; BORDER-TOP: #ffffff 0px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ffffff 1px solid; BORDER-BOTTOM: #ffffff 1px solid"></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 12:58 PM
Wibble


Research . . . and . . .Properly?


I can feel a Peter Kay moment approaching. . . . .

You do research - ? Gosh I just use my own opinions in here!It is sometimes more effective to use the opinions of others. (They are of course entitled to change their mind). I found a posting on a forum by one D. Barker that Aerials should be separated from normal dancing by either time or space, which is my position.

Lee Bartholomew
24th-April-2007, 01:17 PM
Couldn't resist joining in :devil: .



It is all about minimising risk.

I have performed arieals on a social floor without even the slightest bit of a problem. Infact at Chill I had a crowed of people watching as I done double trouble areials. No problems at all.

Then again there has been times I would never dream of doing them and have had to have a word with people that are.

You can not predict a dance floor but you have to balance the level of your enjoyment with the level of risk.

the only way to make dancing 100% safe is not to dance.

Stuart M
24th-April-2007, 01:31 PM
4 examples :clap:
In three years of travelling to see people dancing, I think I saw an airstep carried out at a freestyle with any degree of musicality - once. And the one occasion I saw an aerials competition, I thought it was a circus rehearsal. Your mileage may vary, I guess :clap:


the only way to make dancing 100% safe is not to dance.Actually the worst case of "high heel spiking my foot" :tears: occurred to me when I was sitting next to a dancefloor, so no, not really :rolleyes:

CJ
24th-April-2007, 01:34 PM
As a corollary to Gus' question, can anyone remember when (choreographed routines aside) they saw an airstep performed with any degree of musicality?

So, no-one has done a first move jump on beat to, erm, Pointer Sisters' or Girls Aloud's "Jump.":confused:

Lee Bartholomew
24th-April-2007, 01:48 PM
Actually the worst case of "high heel spiking my foot" :tears: occurred to me when I was sitting next to a dancefloor, so no, not really :rolleyes:

IMO the most dangerous people on the dance floor are not those that are performing areials, but those that walk across carrying drinks or cigerettes :mad: :angry: :mad: :angry: :mad: :angry: :mad: :angry:

As has been said before, It's not aerials that are dangerous, It is how dangerous the person perofrming the areial is.

Any areial 'expert' out there will prob tell you that each 'dangerous' areial is rehursed and the risks are calculated and saftey comes before anything else. The idiot who has been dancing 2 months and tries to copy a move they have seen someone else do without thinking about saftey or risk is the one who is responsible.


Aerials should be treated as sacred moves, only performed when the time and circumstances are right.

Ceroc havn't banned them, they are just discoraging them AFAIK.

Things the MJ world should ban to make it safer. lol

1) weak men attempting drops they can't do
2) Heavy women attempting to throw themselves in to drops.
3) Stupid jewlery which cuts, gets caught, whips you in the face etc.
4) stupid clothes (see 3)
5) Pillars in the middle of the dance floor
6) floors with sticky patches
7) bouncy Euro cheese music which encourages fast furious bouncy leapy style dancing.
8) People walking across dance floors
9) first time dancers
10) Andy McGreggor from wearing womens underwear whilst performing cabaret (can cause blindness)

LMC
24th-April-2007, 01:49 PM
I have performed arieals on a social floor without even the slightest bit of a problem. Infact at Chill I had a crowed of people watching as I done double trouble areials. No problems at all.
I sincerely hope you cross-examined all witnesses beforehand to check none of them were numpties that are likely to try to copy at another, even less appropriate, time.


The idiot who has been dancing 2 months and tries to copy a move they have seen someone else do without thinking about saftey or risk is the one who is responsible.
That's a fat lot of comfort to whoever gets injured by his stupidity. Only rich idiots allowed, so they can afford to be sued.

Lee Bartholomew
24th-April-2007, 01:57 PM
I sincerely hope you cross-examined all witnesses beforehand to check none of them were numpties that are likely to try to copy at another, even less appropriate, time.


That's a fat lot of comfort to whoever gets injured by his stupidity. Only rich idiots allowed, so they can afford to be sued.

I saw one person attempt the partial splits back in to an standing position after seeing me do it. They fell over flat on their face. What can you do?

I shall now never attempt that move again.

Oh and the same thing happens with spinning. Someone tries to copy and then they fall over.

Lets not stop there. I taught a beginners class once with the first move etc in. Maybe people might have copied and got hurt so next time I will just stand on stage and talk about TV.

Aerials shouldn't be banned, but they should be placed under control. A bit like dangerous dogs (pit bulls etc). You wouldn't go out and have them erradicated, but you do have them placed in a muzzle.

Double Trouble
24th-April-2007, 02:00 PM
1) weak men attempting drops they can't do

If the drops are done properly, anyone weak of otherwise, can do them.


2) Heavy women attempting to throw themselves in to drops.

again...down to the lead afaik


3) Stupid jewlery which cuts, gets caught, whips you in the face etc.

I told you about your gold medallion...it's not big and it's not clever


4) stupid clothes (see 3)

like white 'John Travolta' shoes:whistle:


5) Pillars in the middle of the dance floor

You haven't been to Utopia in Twickenham have you?


6) floors with sticky patches

:whistle: :whistle: One word....Ashtons


7) bouncy Euro cheese music which encourages fast furious bouncy leapy style dancing.

What style would you say you have then Woodface...just out of interest.


8) People walking across dance floors
9) first time dancers
10) Andy McGreggor from wearing womens underwear whilst performing cabaret (can cause blindness)

I'm bored now. Can't be bothered with the last three.:rolleyes:

Lee Bartholomew
24th-April-2007, 02:09 PM
If the drops are done properly, anyone weak of otherwise, can do them.


even The Corpse?



again...down to the lead afaik


nope, down to the woman who decides she is now going to do a drop whether the lead knows about it or not



I told you about your gold medallion...it's not big and it's not clever


But it goes with the hairy chest



like white 'John Travolta' shoes:whistle:


They have now died and going in to retirement. Got another pair being made for me (along with some yellow ones) but will prob get a black pair for now.



You haven't been to Utopia in Twickenham have you?


Not yet




:whistle: :whistle: One word....Ashtons


But doesn't the balcony redeem it?




What style would you say you have then Woodface...just out of interest.


You tell me :wink:




I'm bored now. Can't be bothered with the last three.:rolleyes:

Thats just lazy :na:

TheTramp
24th-April-2007, 02:10 PM
I'm bored now. Can't be bothered with the last three.:rolleyes:

You're bored with answering the last 3? Man, I didn't even get as far as finishing reading the 1st one!!

Lee Bartholomew
24th-April-2007, 02:10 PM
You're bored with answering the last 3? Man, I didn't even get as far as finishing reading the 1st one!!

You should read the posts. Might learn something :na: :wink: :flower:

Double Trouble
24th-April-2007, 02:13 PM
You're bored with answering the last 3? Man, I didn't even get as far as finishing reading the 1st one!!

I'm sorry, do I know you?

LMC
24th-April-2007, 02:17 PM
Aerials shouldn't be banned, but they should be placed under control.
Which is exactly what Ceroc is doing by banning them at freestyles. No-one is stopping anyone from learning and dancing aerials in specialist workshops/classes or in competition (subject to individual competition rules).

Stuart M
24th-April-2007, 03:05 PM
So, no-one has done a first move jump on beat to, erm, Pointer Sisters' or Girls Aloud's "Jump.":confused:
Dunno, never saw it happen. To be fair I would usually be up dancing that one...and my rudimentary musicality would never get the timing right for that even if I wanted to do the 1st move jump...

To me, aerial steps are simply unsocial. No matter how good the people doing them are, if I'm on a dancefloor near** them, I find myself adjusting my dancing behaviour. Especially when I'm leading a less experienced dancer.

My view of a social dancefloor is that basically, you shouldn't do stuff on it which would cause major problems if lots of people did the same.
*awaits nitpicking example which confounds this piece of logic...*

** i.e. within 5 yards

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 03:21 PM
Which is exactly what Ceroc is doing by banning them at freestyles. No-one is stopping anyone from learning and dancing aerials in specialist workshops/classes or in competition (subject to individual competition rules).Why should consenting adults not be allowed to dance aerials in freestyle if they are not visibly endangering anybody?

If the reason is that they may fall and suffer injury to themselves then that circumstance occurs in competitions. The championships clip I most often show people shows a couple falling for the second time, their first fall being edited out. I point out the perils as well as extol the benefits.

Nobody knows when a blood vessel may burst or an insect fly into somebodies eye. Competition motivates people to try new things and test the limits. It encourages risk. The modest moves that I do keep the ladies centre of gravity very close to mine. I believe that I have enough of what it takes to pull off a double super-woman, but would not lift even a diminutive ladies centre of gravity more than a couple of inches above mine. I have refused requests to do so.

If Ceroc do ban aerials at normal classes and freestyles I think they should ban them in competition, and retain a global image by withdrawing the Videos and DVD's that teach them. They should also consider any requests for refunds of teaching fees from anybody that they were misled into joing Ceroc in the last few months by the logo and the aerials section, believing that they were going to be taught and allowed to do such moves.

dave the scaffolder
24th-April-2007, 03:41 PM
DISCLAIMER

Ok I am not looking to spark a huge debate here. :eek:

Fu*ked that up then Twirlie havent you, good and proper.

Cue mass debate.

XXX XXX
:love:

boardrider
24th-April-2007, 04:02 PM
Why should consenting adults not be allowed to dance aerials in freestyle if they are not visibly endangering anybody?[snip]

And who decides if the aerial couple are "visibly endangering anybody"? The couple? the fellow dancers on the floor, the venue manager, the organisation?


In all of this thread I haven't seen the word "competent" used anywhere. It is an important word in legal terms.
Are the decision makers above competent to make a decision to allow the aerials to continue? Did they then make the right decision?

Who told them they were competent? And who told that person they were competent? The chain of competency climbs upwards until it hits somebody that isn't competent and there the blame will fall. If it reaches the top and everyone is competent and nobody made a wrong decision, then it is just a freak unforeseeable event.

Otherwise, someone is to blame. And all that goes with it. Livelihood, reputation, etc.

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 05:07 PM
And who decides if the aerial couple are "visibly endangering anybody"? The couple? the fellow dancers on the floor, the venue manager, the organisation? Anybody.




In all of this thread I haven't seen the word "competent" used anywhere. It is an important word in legal terms.
Are the decision makers above competent to make a decision to allow the aerials to continue? Did they then make the right decision?
Not if they did not see it. If there is a complaint of dangerous dancing then there is nothing else that the organiser can do but to tell the complainant to dance away from the alleged perpetrators, tell those perpetrators that such a complaint has been made, to desist from dangerous actions, and keep an eye on them.

If the organiser witness inappropriate behaviour it is up to them to take the appropriate action, eviction and reservin g the right to refuse admission if necessary.

MartinHarper
24th-April-2007, 05:30 PM
In Lindy venues, air steps are typically banned socially, but permitted inside "jam circles". So a blanket ban isn't the only solution. Admittedly MJ culture doesn't include jam circles. Perhaps people could be allowed to perform aerials on the stage? There they would be safe from interference from other dancers. This would also ensure that there was an element of consent.


Leave (air steps) at home if you're going to a freestyle where any idiot might think "oooh, that's cool, I'll try it".

Would you give the same advice regarding up-close moves that might be copied and mis-applied by idiots/creeps?
I guess the negative consequences are different.


As a corollary to Gus' question, can anyone remember when (choreographed routines aside) they saw an airstep performed with any degree of musicality?

I've seen social aerials performed where the landing of the aerial coincided perfectly with a break, by design. Lots of social aerials are very short in duration, so they're relatively easy to fit into the music.

David Franklin
24th-April-2007, 05:43 PM
In Lindy venues, air steps are typically banned socially, but permitted inside "jam circles". So a blanket ban isn't the only solution. Admittedly MJ culture doesn't include jam circles. Perhaps people could be allowed to perform aerials on the stage? There they would be safe from interference from other dancers. This would also ensure that there was an element of consent.I think this is the first actual constructive post, and assuming the stage is suitable(*), I have no personal problem with either of these suggestions.

I suspect there are still liability/insurance implications, however. And if I were a venue manager, I'd still be thinking it's not much gain for rather a lot of hassle.

(*) Though thinking about it, if you don't have a rail or similar, the danger of a couple falling off the stage doing an aerial is probably too high.

MartinHarper
24th-April-2007, 05:56 PM
(*) Though thinking about it, if you don't have a rail or similar, the danger of a couple falling off the stage doing an aerial is probably too high.

Yellow line painted two feet from the edge? If it's good enough for train stations...

Dan
24th-April-2007, 06:18 PM
In Lindy venues, air steps are typically banned socially, but permitted inside "jam circles". So a blanket ban isn't the only solution. Admittedly MJ culture doesn't include jam circles. Perhaps people could be allowed to perform aerials on the stage? There they would be safe from interference from other dancers. This would also ensure that there was an element of consent.



I agree entirely about the stage area. This will ensure that no one will walk or dance past unexpectedly. The organisers could insist that dancers on the stage do so at their own risk. And no doubt the performers will feel great to be on show. Problem solved, every one happy (in theory).

Fantastic idea.

It is interesting to note that the two Davids (Barker and Franklin) who command great in the Aerial field both warn of the danger of a move going possibly wrong whereas other less talented dancers believe that they are almost infallible.

ducasi
24th-April-2007, 06:39 PM
I was thinking about this over the weekend...

I have two possible solutions which could also be effectively combined...

1) Ceroc could introduce a certificate of competency for people wanting to do dangerous moves. Obtaining this certificate would require a dancer to demonstrate competency both of aerial moves, and of the safety issues involved. One would be required by both partner before aerials could be practised at Ceroc events.

2) Ceroc could ask that dancers wanting to do aerials take out insurance which would cover both them and third-parties.

There has been some comparisons on this thread between the dangers involved in dancing and in driving. To be allowed to drive on public roads in most countries of the world you must demonstrate competency, and be insured in case of your own or other's injury.

Some sports do not allow people to take part in them without insurance. If we want to find a way to allow responsible people to occasionally do dangerous things, this might be a solution...

Lee Bartholomew
24th-April-2007, 08:17 PM
Would be interested to hear where both Davids lernt Aerials.

Not for sake of an argument, but just out of constructivity. Maybe it will help us lot.

Where do they practise?

With who?

Who ensures that their partners are safe?

Have they ever done and aerial on a social floor?

Have they ever had an aerial go wrong?

Mary
24th-April-2007, 10:21 PM
The years and years of hard training become self-evident when observing the level of 'talent' in aerials I think.

M

In case there is any confusion I was not referring to myself with this remark.

M

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 10:50 PM
Would be interested to hear where both Davids lernt Aerials.

Not for sake of an argument, but just out of constructivity. Maybe it will help us lot.

Where do they practise?

With who?

Who ensures that their partners are safe?

Have they ever done and aerial on a social floor?

Have they ever had an aerial go wrong?To me most of these questions are irrelevant. Whether their opinions come from good training or bad experience they stll hold weight.

David B has admitted on this forum that he once forgot to spread his legs during the donut. So what? "No gain without pain" as the lady who scratched me just below my eye responded. She is still on my "would travel to dance with" list. To do such an active dance surrounded by people with a large range of compentency levels must involve acceptance of risk. The Davids accept that risk for their own reasons. I would not risk my partner by lifting her more than a couple of inches above my waist (I remember where it used to be). We have different assessments of risks an rewards.

I accept the risk of lifting some of the larger ladies though I am aware that I will probably pay the price with my back sooner or later. My rewards include seeing the excitement and sense of achievement even a modest aerial can bring to a lady who believed herself too big or too unskilled or too whatever, and the ocassional "that was fabulous / amazing" when we have danced just a little bit like SCD or Fred and Ginger.

I have called MJ "The Swiss army knife of dance" , and I believe that aerials are an extra tool. I have recommended MJ as an aerobic activity and an exciting activity, and aerials are part of that picture too.

Did the incident that lead to all this involved a man trying to do an assisted lift with a lady without seeking her assistance?

Because of some bad error 50 miles away I am to be denied, amongst other things, the pleasure of watching champions practise safely at a class night? Is the pleasure of aerials to be reserved for those that can afford rehearsal space whilst safe empty spaces go begging on some dance floors?

Mary
24th-April-2007, 10:55 PM
Im not prepared to comment on how talented I think the Davids are, but that is purely because I haven't seen them dance.



Fair comment. But there are a lot of contributing forumites who have.

I think it's fair to say in the case of David & Lily in particular, that anyone who has seen them perform aerials are pretty blown away, and can't help but have a huge amount of respect for what they can do, and it's hard-earned. Hence people tend to take notice of what they say. In such instances it's not derrier-licking, even though there is plenty of that goes on elsewhere. :wink:

Now Mary - step away from the keyboard.

M

DavidY
24th-April-2007, 11:01 PM
There has been some comparisons on this thread between the dangers involved in dancing and in driving.Here are a couple more quotes relating to driving which may be apposite:
everyone makes errors (even people who obey the law!) ... particularly when performing a semi-automatic task such as driving (1 in every 500 driving decisions is erronous). If people make mistakes when driving - an activity which is well known to cause death and injury - what happens when they're dancing (which is surely another "semi-automatic" task)?
Ugly
* Losing a wheel and having a tyre blown out due to debris from a lorry in front of us on the slip to the M6 from the M56. Could have been a lot worse but still a pain in the backside :mad:..even if you don't make a mistake, bad things happen which you're not expecting.

bigdjiver
24th-April-2007, 11:18 PM
Driving on the wrong side of the road can be very bad, but it is not banned. Safe overtaking is allowed.

bedforddipper
25th-April-2007, 10:00 AM
Well you only have to be away for 2 days and when you come back - yep thats right its still going on and on and and another two pages of, what if's, you shouldn't, ban them, keep them etc etc plus all the personal insults - would you really be so rude to each other face to face??

So to repeat myself (it's an age thing) COMMON SENSE & awareness of other dancers eg COMMON SENSE!!

The ladies are taught at my local venue to "outstretch their arms, do not let them hang by their side"

"Is this going to stop now? because i do not want to run the risk of being poked in the eye by long fingernails or a large lump of rock on the left hand!!

But then as Fran is not dancing at the moment we will all be safe! yes she does know i have written it!!!

bigdjiver
25th-April-2007, 04:10 PM
As a youth I sought to find out about politics by joining all of the youth sections of the political parties. Labour youth were calledthe Young Socialists. Their local members were mostly actually self-styled young Trotskyites. The ide of a trip to Brighton was raised. We were told that we needed 32 people to fill the coach. "How many want to go?" 35
How many do not want to go?" 36. "I am sorry, Brothers, but that is not carried."
I did not go again.

If this vote meant anything would it be the wishes of the majority, or of the significant minority that should count?

Twirlie Bird
25th-April-2007, 06:59 PM
In a newsletter I received yesterday from Revolution Dance I was thrilled to see a dips, drops & aerials workshop being advertised. :clap: Thank goodness somebody isn't running scared. Thank goodness somebody understands you shouldn't restrict a dancers freedom of expression. Thank goodness somebody is choosing to teach and educate the dancers rather than insult them by imposing a blanket ban on aerials.:respect:

Guess where I am dancing tonight. :whistle:

Twirlie Bird
25th-April-2007, 07:05 PM
If this vote meant anything would it be the wishes of the majority, or of the significant minority that should count?

I think this vote is very weighted. The options do not relate to the debate in question. I did private message Ducasi after seeing that he had added this poll. I expressed my feelings and concerns about this. Basically his response was' it's nothing to do with you'. :confused: End of. We all know that the same question can be asked in a number of ways with words being carefully chosen to get the answer that is required. It's misleading and it's unnecessary. :angry: I only wish Ducasi had listened to my request to remove the poll that he had added.

LMC
25th-April-2007, 07:08 PM
Would you give the same advice regarding up-close moves that might be copied and mis-applied by idiots/creeps?
Yep. IIRC, Mikey, for example, does say that these moves should only be done with a consenting partner ...


I guess the negative consequences are different.
... even if the partner is non-consenting these moves are not as likely to cause physical injury to the follower and others in the immediate area as an unsafe aerial. Of course, the risk of injury to the lead might be more likely - good slapping, kick inna fork, etc ....

Twirliebird - a workshop is different from a freestyle event. Enjoy it :nice: But please don't take the tricky moves onto a freestyle floor where some idiot who wasn't there might copy, or some idiot who doesn't dance as well as you might crash into you while you're 4 feet + in the air.

EDIT due to cross-post: the poll wording is perfectly fair IMO - what do you think is wrong with it? And as far as removal is concerned - you might have posted the thread, but it's not "yours" once it's public. Sorry.

ducasi
25th-April-2007, 07:26 PM
I think this vote is very weighted. The options do not relate to the debate in question.
[...]
We all know that the same question can be asked in a number of ways with words being carefully chosen to get the answer that is required. It's misleading and it's unnecessary. :angry: I'm alarmed at your implication that I deliberately biased the poll I added to this thread. To what end? These polls are pretty meaningless, so why bother?

I tried to make the question and options as bias-free as possible, and would like to hear your thoughts on how I could have made it better.

When I posted the poll I expected there would be a majority against the ban, and the current voting is a surprise to me.

In fact, TB, I would like Ceroc to find a middle ground where those who have the ability to do aerials safely can do them in a safe way. This was why I posted a possible solution (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/364478-post251.html) to the problem yesterday on this thread.

But if Ceroc cannot find any other way to stop idiots doing aerials, then yes, I will support the ban.


I did private message Ducasi after seeing that he had added this poll. I expressed my feelings and concerns about this. Basically his response was' it's nothing to do with you'. :confused: End of.
[...]
I only wish Ducasi had listened to my request to remove the poll that he had added. I explained my reasons in my reply to you.

If I hadn't been a moderator I would have then started a new thread and posted the exact same poll. I would then expect a moderator to merge my new thread with your one, as they'd both be on the very same topic – Ceroc's apparent ban on aerials.

Lee Bartholomew
25th-April-2007, 07:51 PM
please don't take the tricky moves onto a freestyle floor where some idiot who wasn't there might copy,


So ban them any place they may be copied? Showcases, youtube, Lindy Jams, workshops (someone might be watching through the windows), TV shows etc etc.

There are two extreames to this argument

1) all areials are safe

and

2) no areials are safe.

think there are very few people at one extreme or the other.

Personally I think they are fine if the circs, space, floor and music are right. I only do baby aerials but have just started doing them in Double trouble. Feels great, hopefully it looks great and above all, I make sure it is as safe as performing a first move.

bedforddipper
25th-April-2007, 08:05 PM
Personally I think they are fine if the circs, space, floor and music are right. I only do baby aerials but have just started doing them in Double trouble. Feels great, hopefully it looks great and above all, I make sure it is as safe as performing a first move.

Help!!! someone with common sense are there just the two of us??

BTW - going to Cambridge tonight, will say quite categorically that I wont be doing any aerials - nothing to do with floor space, but something to do with a very low ceiling!!! (aware of ones surroundings)!!!! But Bedford has a much higher ceiling so roll on tomorrow night!!

bigdjiver
25th-April-2007, 08:22 PM
I'm alarmed at your implication that I deliberately biased the poll I added to this thread. To what end? :devil: To support your position?:devil: (I do not believe that, I think you were acting with the best of intentions)


These polls are pretty meaningless, so why bother? Unforunately politicians and marketing people, and others, will use meaningless polls.


I tried to make the question and options as bias-free as possible, and would like to hear your thoughts on how I could have made it better.

multi options? perhaps:

Reserve the right to refuse admission to persistently dangerous people.
Separate aerials from worried dancers by space.
Separate aerials from worried dancers by time.
Ban aerials altogether.
Ban aerials when there is insufficent space.
Insist on qualifications.
... In fact, TB, I would like Ceroc to find a middle ground where those who have the ability to do aerials safely can do them in a safe way. ...That is the situation that we have now. IMO If anybody is doing anything in an unsafe way they should be spoken to, and, if necessary evicted. If they persist they should be denied admission.



This was why I posted a possible solution (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/364478-post251.html) to the problem yesterday on this thread
Unfortunately we cannot vote for those proposals.

It used to be policy at some venues I attend for the music before the last half-hour at a class to be slower and simpler for the benefit of the Taxi-Dancers and beginners. A simple request in the new members pack for dancers to be extra cautious before the last half hour, repeated periodically in classes, would satisfy my desires. I usually reserve aerials for late on anyway, when I am thoroughly warmed up and the floor is clearer.

bigdjiver
25th-April-2007, 08:24 PM
...BTW - going to Cambridge tonight, will say quite categorically that I wont be doing any aerials - nothing to do with floor space, ...Is there some other Cambridge that I don't know about?

John S
25th-April-2007, 08:40 PM
Help!!! someone with common sense are there just the two of us??
Implying??????

dave the scaffolder
25th-April-2007, 10:04 PM
In a newsletter I received yesterday from Revolution Dance I was thrilled to see a dips, drops & aerials workshop being advertised. :clap: Thank goodness somebody isn't running scared. Thank goodness somebody understands you shouldn't restrict a dancers freedom of expression. Thank goodness somebody is choosing to teach and educate the dancers rather than insult them by imposing a blanket ban on aerials.:respect:

Guess where I am dancing tonight. :whistle:

Wheres this Revolution Dance then?

Twirly me old lovely. XXX XXX:love::cheers::kiss::angry::yum::hug::o:flower:

Raul
25th-April-2007, 11:15 PM
In fact, TB, I would like Ceroc to find a middle ground where those who have the ability to do aerials safely can do them in a safe way.

But if Ceroc cannot find any other way to stop idiots doing aerials, then yes, I will support the ban.



Good comments Ducasi.

Unfortunately each one genuinely believes that he/she has the ability to do aerials safely!

"trust me i know what i am doing ........ oops! "

.

Franck
26th-April-2007, 12:23 AM
Wow! What a lot of over-reaction!

My perspective as a Ceroc Franchisee and event organiser is that I would rather the nights remained enjoyable and safe for the majority of dancers and personally, I would rather not have to worry about serious injury inflicted on anyone at my classes or freestyles.

The issues I have with aerials are:

- They are inherently more dangerous than any other moves. Both in the degree of injury potentiall suffered and on the scope for injuries to other parties not involved in the dance)

- They are anti-social, and make other dancers in the vicinity react defensively (therefore impacting on their enjoyment of the dance)

- They are often performed without consent on beginners / new intermediate, just because they happen to be of slight built.

- They are not likely to improve most (social) dances, and indeed are not necessary to feel or perform a great dance.

This debate brought back to mind the 'dancing and smoking' don't mix discussions, where smokers defended their (adult) right / choice to smoke in the comfort of their venue, and that if we banned smoking we should also ban drinking, etc... People who wanted smoking to stop, quoted the unpleasantness of having smoke in your eyes, the stench on their clothing, the risk of passive smoking, etc...

Every event organiser has to decide for him/herself what they want at their venue, and in this case, Ceroc have decided that we didn't want aerials, it is our choice and prerogative, as it will be everyone's choice to dance elsewhere if they want to continue.

Many of you have said that it isn't the aerials that are the problem, but the 'numpties' who don't perform them safely!
Unfortunately, most numpties don't picture themselves that way (they are perfectly safe thank you!) and compare their aerial moves as 'safer than a first move' :really: The level of delusion is such, and the potential for long protracted argument quite akin to some recent debates over moderations here, that I would rather just ban the moves (and eventually the perpetrators). That way, once the 'safe numpties' stop performing aerials, I'll be able to spot the 'real numpties' who generally dance dangerously.

Raul
26th-April-2007, 01:47 AM
:yeah:

Hurrah!

I sympathise with those who love aerials but do care far more for the safety of my fellow dancers.

killingtime
26th-April-2007, 11:51 AM
I think this vote is very weighted. The options do not relate to the debate in question.
...
We all know that the same question can be asked in a number of ways with words being carefully chosen to get the answer that is required.

Well I'd say it would be biased if the options were:

"Do you support the ban on aerials?"

* Yes, I do.
* I enjoy having my head split open when someone crashes into me.

I think the option of this poll asks the general issues (rather than goes to suggest solutions). I was going for "Don't know/unsure/don't care" (which I agree the first two maybe shouldn't have been grouped with the third) but reading this thread only served to convince me that the ban was a good thing so I changed my vote. Sure I still have reservations but I see the reasons for the ban out-weight the reasons against.

Stuart M
26th-April-2007, 12:07 PM
- They are anti-social, and make other dancers in the vicinity react defensively (therefore impacting on their enjoyment of the dance)

Has any supporter of air-steps on the social dancefloor offered any views on this point?

To pre-empt, I know a ban does not specifically address this aspect. Plus, it singles out air-steps, when the same effect happens when dancing near known bad dancers, or even stilettoes. However, from my own experience, I react the same way even when I know the air-stepping couple to be very good. It does seem to be a distinct situation IMO.

It's like how you react to someone in your rear mirror who's doing 75, compared to how you react to someone doing 120. I know my reaction to the latter would be the same even if the driver was Michael Schumaker*

*OK maybe not the best choice of individual for this comparison, but I'm sure you catch my drift

bigdjiver
26th-April-2007, 12:37 PM
:yeah:

Hurrah!

I sympathise with those who love aerials but do care far more for the safety of my fellow dancers.So, would you be prepared to take the next logical step and advocate a ban aerials in competition?

Even the experts are prone to error and unforseen events, and all of them have come through points in their training where they were not fully competent to do what they attempting. Even if they had what I would regard as the minimum and maximum number of safe spotters there is no way that those could be fully trained in every way a move could go wrong. It is only possible to minimise risk. The only way to eliminate it is not to do the act. It is true for dancers on the dance floor, it is true for competitors, except than in a competition the incentives of reward and fame are being awared, encouraging people to go to the limits, and, alas, sometimes beyond.

If aerials are banned at events logic dictates that it is even more imperative to ban them in competition.

Or we can take the line of consenting adults, informed consent, and people taking action against the "numpties".

Franck
26th-April-2007, 12:49 PM
So, would you be prepared to take the next logical step and advocate a ban aerials in competition?This has nothing to do with the discussion at all. Aerials and other display dancing will of course still be welcome at competitions (though only in restricted categories). Aerials definitely have a place in showcases and of course in the 'Aerial category' where each competitor will be in a controlled environment (i.e. not social dancing) and will have practised the moves safely (in their own or hired studio, hopefully with spotters and a qualified teacher to help and advise).

The ban is about social dancing and the safety and comfort of the majority of dancers. Acrobatics and other feats of human agility / strength are still fascinating to watch, when not dancing around them.

Raul
26th-April-2007, 01:14 PM
[

So, would you be prepared to take the next logical step and advocate a ban aerials in competition?

If aerials are banned at events logic dictates that it is even more imperative to ban them in competition.

Or we can take the line of consenting adults, informed consent, and people taking action against the "numpties".

I am not a competition fan but i do know that in the showcase section you have enough room to swing a cat, so to speak. Even if someone can dream up some circumstance in social dancing, where you have just three or four couples dancing at that level, there will probably be some onlookers ready to give it a go on their girlfriend.

As a matter of interest, i have never seen couples who compete at that level do any aerial in a social dance. I have no doubt that they practice long and hard, but not in a crowded venue and not with an untrained/unprepared partner however much she may be consenting.

Do not interpret my comments as applying only to dancers who wish to compete. Whether you do or whether you want to impress your friends, or whatever your motive, you can practice with your consenting partner in a private venue.

Most dancers going to MJ venue expect a social dance without having to watch out for human missiles.

David Franklin
26th-April-2007, 01:23 PM
If this vote meant anything would it be the wishes of the majority, or of the significant minority that should count?Obviously it's the minority view that should count.

Of course, I'm talking about the minority of voters who are venue managers / franchise owners. They may wish to take note of other people's opinions, but in the end, it is their business, and their decision.

If you want to set up your own venue where aerials are allowed, go ahead. I don't even say it's a bad idea. After all, that's effectively what Bryony and I did in the past; get one or two other couples together, hire a hall, practice. (It wasn't exactly a paying proposition, of course - we spent thousands a year on hall hire).

straycat
26th-April-2007, 01:25 PM
but i do know that in the showcase section you have enough room to swing a cat...

OI!!!!!!! :what: :sick: :tears:

(any wonder I won't go near showcase comps any more?)

Lee Bartholomew
26th-April-2007, 01:29 PM
I can see both sides of the argument.

I have been witness to an ambulance case where an aerial went wrong, but I have also seen some wonderful safe aerials performed on the dance floor.

What I would really base my desision upon is seeing some figure relating to how many injuries are actually caused by aerials a year / month / week. If it stands at 0 then we should carry on as was if it's a high number then things need to change.

Both sides of the argument is currently based on if's and whats. Not facts.

StokeBloke
26th-April-2007, 01:37 PM
This has nothing to do with the discussion at all. Aerials and other display dancing will of course still be welcome at competitions (though only in restricted categories). Aerials definitely have a place in showcases and of course in the 'Aerial category' where each competitor will be in a controlled environment (i.e. not social dancing) and will have practised the moves safely (in their own or hired studio, hopefully with spotters and a qualified teacher to help and advise).

The ban is about social dancing and the safety and comfort of the majority of dancers. Acrobatics and other feats of human agility / strength are still fascinating to watch, when not dancing around them.
It seems odd that you can see no correlation between Ceroc and the Ceroc championships Frankc. Ceroc championships would on the face of it suggest a championship for people dancing Ceroc based dance. No?

This dumbing down to the lowest common denominator sickens me because it does nothing to address the underlying problem; that is dangerous dancers. If safety is a real concern, and the driving force behind this blanket ban why not work with the dancers to educate them from the very start. Ceroc Basics teach connection, weight transfer, spinning and turning... this could easily include information about floor craft, consent, inappropriate moves on a busy floor, etc. Although this would take time, effort and money; the end result would be better equipped, safer dancers and dance floors for everyone. people would know what was dangerous and would be happy to see infractions and/or bans handed to people dancing in an inappropriate way.

However, I am sure it's far cheaper to just laminate a few BAN signs and whack them up. A cheapskate cop-out that gives a nod in the direction of dancer safety when there in fact is no substance. The dangerous lifters, just become dangerous droppers :sigh:

Ceroc don't teach WCS (or Lindy, or Tango, or Salsa, or...) but it's not banned from their dance venues, so why not have a WCS (or Lindy, or Tango, or Salsa, or...) section at the Ceroc champs instead of a showcase for steps that most of your punters will never have a hope of doing because they simply can't afford to employ a specialist teacher, a spotter or two and a private dance studio on a regular basis.

Franck
26th-April-2007, 01:44 PM
What I would really base my desision upon is seeing some figure relating to how many injuries are actually caused by aerials a year / month / week. If it stands at 0 then we should carry on as was if it's a high number then things need to change.

Both sides of the argument is currently based on if's and whats. Not facts.The facts are:
Fact 1- accidents caused by aerials do happen (you've witnessed at least one and I have heard of several). The actual number doesn't matter to me as a venue operator, the chance that even one serious accident might take place in my venues is sufficient in this case to enforcing the ban.
Fact 2- The degree of injury likely to be suffered from an aerial move gone wrong is (on average) greater than all the other risks quoted. Of course, freak accidents will always happen, and we can't protect against everything, but aerials are more likely to involve head or spine injury.
Fact 3- Aerials are disruptive to social dancing (as I, StuartM and others pointed out). Anyone performing the aerial will not necessary be aware of the disruption and stress they cause around them as they are convinced that they are completely safe and aware of their surroundings.
Fact 4- I operate the venues, I care about the comfort and welfare of all dancers attending, therefore it is my choice to restrict some moves but not others, based on my judgement and assessment of the risks.

Finally, as I mentioned at the start of the thread, I want the rules to be simple, consistent and easy to enforce. I have really enjoyed Martin Harper's contribution re. head should remain above centre of gravity and feet should stay below that point to avoid one colliding with the other. This probably means that the rules in Scotland will also limit some deep drops on the social dance floor and other dangerous moves not classified as aerials.

Franck
26th-April-2007, 01:52 PM
It seems odd that you can see no correlation between Ceroc and the Ceroc championships Frankc. Ceroc championships would on the face of it suggest a championship for people dancing Ceroc based dance. No? The distinction I draw is between social dancing and performance dancing. Ceroc can certainly accommodate both at the Champs (and possibly at some week-enders) but on regular classes and freestyles, the priority is given to social dancing.

Your other points I've already answered in my previous post, but to reiterate, educating dancers (collectively or individually) doesn't work, it's not about cost, but about selective hearing. Numpties all believe they are safe and do not take any account of warnings (I know from experience). As I can't be watching everyone all the time, applying a blanket ban is the only practical solution.

I believe that like the smoking ban, gradually all venues will ban aerials from social dance floors within the the next couple of years, so would advise anyone relying on flying moves for thrills and excitement, to start working on other alternatives (many safer ones exist).

Trousers
26th-April-2007, 02:01 PM
Franck

Have you (i'm not attacking, meerly enquiring as you have chosen to join this debate) ever warned anyone in a social dance to dance better/safer or more politely and have you ever subsequently chucked them out for ignoring you?

I've complained to franchisees about dangerouse dancers touchy feely dancers and plain idiots and never seen any action from the franchisee. Even that the franchisee would walk down and watch for a while so they could make an opinion.

Bans of anything wont work and make our social dance floors better unless you (the franchisee's) actually do something.

I think this may have something to do with the high feelings that this ban/discussion has raised because it highlights on something that is dangerous but does not say what will be done if flaunted. Neither does it say anything about the run of the mill dangerous dancing that happens everywhere.

bigdjiver
26th-April-2007, 02:56 PM
... I sympathise with those who love aerials but do care far more for the safety of my fellow dancers.Try again. Are people who do aerials in competitions your "fellow dancers"?

If so, does their training and competing involve risk?

If their training involves risk and we care for their safety then should we encourage them to take risks by offering rewards?

or do we come down to consenting, informed adults?

We do not get to hear of those who can afford their own private studio (aerials for the rich?) and are injured as a result, and I seem to recall a teacher cancelling an aerial workshops through injury.

LMC
26th-April-2007, 03:31 PM
or do we come down to consenting, informed adults?
What about the informed adults who do *not* consent to aerials being performed on the floor that they are sharing with those who imagine that they are above reproach?

It's all very well saying that it's dangerous dancing "overall" that should be stopped - and big :respect: to Trousers for reporting incidents that he sees. However, how on earth can this be policed?

I saw a scary aerial just last night. The venue management does not have a ban in place, but does not encourage aerials. I know, I asked them - and until I told them yesterday, they were unaware of Ceroc ban and the recent incident that has given rise to this thread. The couple concerned were obviously competent. They were in a corner. And at the start of the move, to be fair, they had plenty of space. Unfortunately, as the lady was lifted at a horizontal angle to the floor, with her 2.5 inch heels at the (tall) lead's chest level, Mr-Appalling-Floorcraft (who I had had the displeasure of dancing with earlier :rolleyes: ) nearly ran his partner of the time backwards into the lady's heels with some kind of travelling move. Did that follower deserve to be injured by an aerial in which she wasn't participating and had not agreed to?

At the time, both teachers were dancing with the punters - and I'd rather have the teacher available to dance with than standing on the side of the floor acting as a police person.

Did I report it? No, I didn't. I'd had a lovely evening and didn't want to spoil it by whining. Selfish? Yeah, damn right I am. But so are the people who insist on risking other people's injury. However, as I know the aerial lead concerned and Mr-Bad-Floorcraft I have e-mailed the venue managers today to comment.

StokeBloke
26th-April-2007, 03:34 PM
to reiterate, educating dancers (collectively or individually) doesn't work
In all the time I have attended Ceroc class nights I have never once, ever, on any occasion, ever, heard the words 'floor craft' mentioned. Let alone heard teachers explain the concept, or say that if you throw a follow behind into a Catapult you need to be sure there's not someone standing right behind you because you'll crash. I've never heard a class told to be aware of other dancers around them ever. Never. Ever! http://www.funfull.com/images/msn-emoticons/000154.gif

You claim education doesn't work Franck - yet I have seen no evidence of education about safe ways to dance at any Ceroc venue. Just education on how to do the basics of the moves.

Trousers
26th-April-2007, 03:44 PM
At the time, both teachers were dancing with the punters - and I'd rather have the teacher available to dance with than standing on the side of the floor acting as a police person.

Did I report it? No, I didn't. I'd had a lovely evening and didn't want to spoil it by whining. Selfish? Yeah, damn right I am. But so are the people who insist on risking other people's injury. However, as I know the aerial lead concerned and Mr-Bad-Floorcraft I have e-mailed the venue managers today to comment.
I didn't suggest police - we've done that thread to death too.
But if someone raises issue to the franchise manager they ought to be interested enough to look in to it and then brave enough to act should they also see a problem.

With you not raising the issue you had at the time the culprits get away with it - email comlaints are filed in Trash.

and if you consider it to be whining then you obviously don't have the conviction in your own opinion to make the complaint at all I think.

This is why nothing gets done

You have the right to be safe - complain!

LMC
26th-April-2007, 04:03 PM
I didn't suggest police - we've done that thread to death too.
Yep, lol.


But if someone raises issue to the franchise manager they ought to be interested enough to look in to it and then brave enough to act should they also see a problem.
:yeah:


With you not raising the issue you had at the time the culprits get away with it - email comlaints are filed in Trash.
Any other venue? Possibly. But these guys will read and respond. They may decide to do nothing - but it's their venue. It's all very well saying "raise it at the time" - but this could still be ignored: you said yourself that you have frequently observed no action following a complaint at the time. As the dancer with "least time served" of the three (the two aerials culprits + me), it would have gone down like a mug of cold sick if I had spoken to the aerials performers directly. I may well have done if I was the follower in danger (possibly a tactful suggestion to take themselves up onto the plenty-big-enough-and-empty stage because my partner isn't giving them enough room) - but I was sat out at the time. If no-one else seems to mind then I will appear like I'm whining :rolleyes: OK, maybe whining isn't the right word. But my comment about "spoiling my lovely evening by having to be negative" stands.


You have the right to be safe - complain!
I have :)

Lee Bartholomew
26th-April-2007, 04:06 PM
People could always take up a dance form that doesn't involve aerials.

Morris dancing anyone?

StokeBloke
26th-April-2007, 04:21 PM
People could always take up a dance form that doesn't involve aerials.

Morris dancing anyone?
Strange you mention Morris Dancing. Whilst talking to a Pontins security guy on Sunday night/morning; he said that they dread the mossis dancers coming (they were booked there the week after Chill). He said they are the worst group they have booked all year - bar none!

All those itchy beards and real ale with bits floating in must make 'em crazy. I can just imagine the violent discussions on their forum because CeLe'Morris[tm] have banned wooden poles in favour of cardboard tubes. Its a H&S issue you know.... :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-April-2007, 04:38 PM
Strange you mention Morris Dancing. Whilst talking to a Pontins security guy on Sunday night/morning; he said that they dread the mossis dancers coming (they were booked there the week after Chill). He said they are the worst group they have booked all year - bar none!

All those itchy beards and real ale with bits floating in must make 'em crazy. I can just imagine the violent discussions on their forum because CeLe'Morris[tm] have banned wooden poles in favour of cardboard tubes. Its a H&S issue you know.... :rofl:

Morris Dancing freaks me out. What makes a grown man wake up one day and decide to tie bells to his ankles.



Can someone let me know what incident lead to this aerials ban? Soz if been mentioned in post prior but no time to read through.
:cheers:

Twirlie Bird
26th-April-2007, 05:00 PM
even The Corpse?

He dropped me on Friday night :sick: OK it wasn't a deep drop, more a little dip :rofl:




But doesn't the balcony redeem it?


I thought that balcony would be sticky too :whistle: :rofl:

Twirlie Bird
26th-April-2007, 05:16 PM
Twirliebird - a workshop is different from a freestyle event. Enjoy it :nice: But please don't take the tricky moves onto a freestyle floor where some idiot who wasn't there might copy, or some idiot who doesn't dance as well as you might crash into you while you're 4 feet + in the air..

I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to do aerials in case some idiot sees me and tries to copy me. :what: Where is that going to stop? That seems like a crazy argument. :sick: As for idiots crashing into me, I wouldn't be doing Ariel's with any partner who would lift me that high in the air that close to any dancers let alone idiot ones. Please give me and my dancing partners some credit. :mad: As for the workshops. The fact that there are these workshops and the fact that people attend then shows that aerials have a place in modern jive.:whistle:


EDIT due to cross-post: the poll wording is perfectly fair IMO - what do you think is wrong with it? And as far as removal is concerned - you might have posted the thread, but it's not "yours" once it's public. Sorry.

Like I stated this poll is weighted. It's not actually asking the questions to answer what is being debated. There should be questions like, Have you ever been hurt while doing an aerial? Have you ever been hurt by somebody else doing an aerial? Have you ever seen an aerial go wrong? :confused: This would give a far clearer indicator as to how big this problem is. However I guess if the poll was worded like this then it would probably highlight the fact that not many people have been hurt in or by an aerial and not many people have seen aerials go wrong. Then where would this discussion go.:devil:

Twirlie Bird
26th-April-2007, 05:22 PM
I tried to make the question and options as bias-free as possible, and would like to hear your thoughts on how I could have made it better. Maybe by actually wording the poll options to the debate in question. The whole alleged ban seems to be about safety and insurance. The poll doesn't touch on this at all. Do all the people who say yes it's a good idea do so because they have been hurt due to an aerial? :confused:


When I posted the poll I expected there would be a majority against the ban, and the current voting is a surprise to me. Strange considering the posts before the poll :whistle:


In fact, TB, I would like Ceroc to find a middle ground where those who have the ability to do aerials safely can do them in a safe way . That one we agree on :D


But if Ceroc cannot find any other way to stop idiots doing aerials, then yes, I will support the ban. Doesn't seem that Ceroc are even trying to find any other way. Mind you I do think it's strange that there hasn't been any word directly from Ceroc on this one and different franchisees are doing different things with regards to it. :what: This just makes it even more confusing. :confused:

killingtime
26th-April-2007, 05:27 PM
I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to do aerials in case some idiot sees me and tries to copy me. :what: ... As for idiots crashing into me, I wouldn't be doing Ariel's with any partner who would lift me that high in the air that close to any dancers let alone idiot ones.

As argued elsewhere someone doing a walk move can cover a few meters in a couple of seconds. I don't agree with the "in case someone copies" argument though but I do agree with the ban.


Like I stated this poll is weighted. It's not actually asking the questions to answer what is being debated. There should be questions like, Have you ever been hurt while doing an aerial? Have you ever been hurt by somebody else doing an aerial? Have you ever seen an aerial go wrong?

I've never seen anyone be electrocuted. Should I believe that it doesn't happen? That's not stating this poll is weighted it's stating that the poll doesn't ask the questions that you want answered.

I don't need to see people fry to wonder why we bother with circuit breakers.

bedforddipper
26th-April-2007, 06:13 PM
Can someone let me know what incident lead to this aerials ban? Soz if been mentioned in post prior but no time to read through.
:cheers:

I think the original incident hapened at a event in Hertfordshire, I do not know the exact details, I do know the lady that was dropped who i believe suffered concussion, I do not know (by name) who she was dancing with and have heard various reports! As yet i have not spoken to her to find out what went wrong, that is if she can remember - i am not being flippant with that remark.

What i will say that this lady as I have said before is a first class dancer and although not my regular dance partner she is the only other dancer in the area that I have performed aerials with and more to the point feel confident to do so.

pmjd
26th-April-2007, 06:17 PM
In all the time I have attended Ceroc class nights I have never once, ever, on any occasion, ever, heard the words 'floor craft'
Well learning to dance up here I have heard the floorcraft word mentioned. More than one of my teachers has told the class about floorcraft and to check before executing moves that you have the space to do them. Problem is that not everyone pays attention.

I can also remember during one party the teacher telling the everyone to be more aware on the floor as the venue was busier than expected.


As argued elsewhere someone doing a walk move can cover a few meters in a couple of seconds.
Anyone else find that after a class has been taught a walking move the floor fills up with lots of couples trying it but who spend all there time looking at their feet rather than where they're going:mad:

Poor floorcraft, assumptions and over confidence lead to a lots of accidents on the dance floor. Yes you can get injuries from dips, drops and even basic moves but aerials have the possibility of going badly wrong and causing greater injury. I think aerials can be done in the right settings but social dancing doesn't present many opportunities to do this. So it will be a shame to see them banned but if it stops the numpties then so be it:(. I will be very interested to see the guidelines that are published to see exactly what is banned and if it will affect any dips/drops too.

On a side note what is the new Ceroc logo going to be:whistle:

bedforddipper
26th-April-2007, 06:33 PM
On a side note what is the new Ceroc logo going to be:whistle:

Dont know they have not approached me yet!! I offered my services several days ago :worthy:

pmjd
26th-April-2007, 06:37 PM
Dont know they have not approached me yet!! I offered my services several days ago :worthy:

Well lets see your audition then:wink:

Twirlie Bird
26th-April-2007, 06:40 PM
Personally I think they are fine if the circs, space, floor and music are right. I only do baby aerials but have just started doing them in Double trouble. Feels great, hopefully it looks great and above all, I make sure it is as safe as performing a first move.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

StokeBloke
26th-April-2007, 06:49 PM
I make sure it is as safe as performing a first move.
No matter how great you are, or think you are woody this is an impossibility. Rhetoric like this does nothing to promote the responsible use of more advanced moves (like aerials). All it does is make you seem like an ill-informed numpty who is so full of themselves they believe their dance ability is bordering on - if not completely - messianic.

I know that lots of your comments are tongue in cheek, but unfortuanately there are people reading this forum who don't :wink:

Twirlie Bird
26th-April-2007, 06:53 PM
I am not a competition fan but i do know that in the showcase section you have enough room to swing a cat, so to speak. Even if someone can dream up some circumstance in social dancing, where you have just three or four couples dancing at that level, there will probably be some onlookers ready to give it a go on their girlfriend.
Well I don't need to dream up a scenario. I can give you one that happened this week. 3 couples dancing at the very same venue that aerials competitions are held. Yes there were a few onlookers but how many onlookers do you think there are at competitions? :rolleyes:


As a matter of interest, i have never seen couples who compete at that level do any aerial in a social dance. I have no doubt that they practice long and hard, but not in a crowded venue and not with an untrained/unprepared partner however much she may be consenting.

How about in an empty venue as I have just described with their regular trained dance partner? Completely different scenario. Completely different level of risk.

StokeBloke
26th-April-2007, 07:40 PM
I wonder if it is because of the talk of a blanket ban on aerial moves, but there is a very twisted perception about this whole thing. It is not a black and white subject (even though the proposed aerials ban treats it as such). Let me illustrate:

http://www.wanderingbuddhist.com/images/ankawawedding/images/37.jpg
An Aerial NOT Safe Here Folks


http://www.hellraverproductions.com/ecrafttour/dcclub.jpg
An Aerial SAFER Here Folks


http://www.ballet-dance.com/200405/articles/images/Outof_AfricaGlennLift.jpg
An Aerial (but nay troosers)


http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/4765/cover12ty.jpg


Also an Aerial (and a Cliff impersonator in troosers with creases that you could slice bread with)



Maybe we can start discussing aerials and dance floors with these images in mind. Rather than thinking everyone wants to re-enact the final lift in Dirty Dancing five minutes after the beginner lesson has finished on a packed class night. Sheeesh.... :eek:

Gus
26th-April-2007, 08:26 PM
I wonder if it is because of the talk of a blanket ban on aerial moves, but there is a very twisted perception about this whole thing. It is not a black and white subject (even though the proposed aerials ban treats it as such). Something has just occured to me ... you dance at Kings HAll, Stoke? Room for 300 dancers right? And about 30/40 dancers on the usual Monday Ceroc night? So .... you are probably used to having half a football pitch of room about you to do aerials. Would a passing forumite be scared off the venue by a plethora of airsteppers on a regular club night there?

JiveLad
26th-April-2007, 08:30 PM
New CerocAerial rules, OK?

Ceroc Aerial rues KO.

bigdjiver
27th-April-2007, 01:03 AM
Something has just occured to me ... you dance at Kings HAll, Stoke? Room for 300 dancers right? And about 30/40 dancers on the usual Monday Ceroc night? So .... you are probably used to having half a football pitch of room about you to do aerials. Would a passing forumite be scared off the venue by a plethora of airsteppers on a regular club night there?At last someone on the other side of the argument to me is taking note of what I mean by enough space. Wellingborough has space for 300 dancers, if they did not mind dancing on carpet. The floor dance floor occupies a fraction of the space. I have danced on the carpet there at the freestyles with the nearest person sitting at least 4 yards away and the dancers at least 5 yards away. Alex ( a teacher) was dancing at least 4 yards away from the dancefloor.

Wicksteed Park pavilion, Kettering, is also spacious. When Michaela and Emma P. (both senior teachers) were practising aerials they were about 5 yards from the nearest seated person, and probably 9 yards from the dancefloor.

IMO no third party was in any danger whatsoever, and dozens of spectators were very entertained.

bigdjiver
27th-April-2007, 01:19 AM
Wow! What a lot of over-reaction!I am 6'3" tall. One way I can get eye-to-eye contact at the same level on a dancefloor is to go down on one knee (which I do). The lifts that I do I do give me the chance to make eye contact at eye level, and use some the best of my limited talents, which are stability and strength. Lifts are part of my dance persona.

Such a ban will definitely much diminish the fun that I and many of my partners enjoy, both in dancing and in watching others.

Dan
27th-April-2007, 01:29 AM
Quote:Originally Posted by Raul
... I sympathise with those who love aerials but do care far more for the safety of my fellow dancers.


Try again. Are people who do aerials in competitions your "fellow dancers"?



No - I don't think I will as you are deliberately nickpicking for you know well that i was referring to social dancing and that my fellow dancers would therefore be social dancers.

I am not taking the bait and offering you the opportunity to perpetuate this nickpicking circuitous discussion. The people responsible for venues have made their decision and we respond to that in our own way, i am moving on, you can stagnate on this thread if you wish, but will have to do so on your own. Should you not be doing something exciting and dangerous instead of sitting at this keyboard.

StokeBloke
27th-April-2007, 02:17 AM
Something has just occured to me ... you dance at Kings HAll, Stoke? Room for 300 dancers right? And about 30/40 dancers on the usual Monday Ceroc night? So .... you are probably used to having half a football pitch of room about you to do aerials. Would a passing forumite be scared off the venue by a plethora of airsteppers on a regular club night there?


30 or 40.....? More like 20 (including crew)

This Monday Twirlie Bird and I were on that championship sized dance floor (space for 300 couples) with just two other couples. It would have taken Linford Christie to get close enough to knock us over when we wanted to do a bunny hop. Still, there was a ban in place to protect both of the other couples from our decadent use of a flashy first move hop across. Phew! At least they were safe!!

The craziest thing of all Gus is one of the aerials we love to dance was taught to us on that empty dance floor by Mike Allsopp, the Ceroc Midlands franchisee, about a month ago!

So, we get taught a move by a teacher with over 10 years dance experience in an all but empty huge venue and a month later, after practicing that move, and seeing the teacher do the move with his regular demo and with Twirlie Bird at that same empty venue we are suddenly faced with a banning notice by that same teacher who taught us the move........ on safety grounds.

Then people read my posts and wonder why I am confused.

bigdjiver
27th-April-2007, 02:28 AM
Quote:Originally Posted by Raul
... I sympathise with those who love aerials but do care far more for the safety of my fellow dancers.



No - I don't think I will as you are deliberately nickpicking for you know well that i was referring to social dancing and that my fellow dancers would therefore be social dancers.

I am not taking the bait and offering you the opportunity to perpetuate this nickpicking circuitous discussion. The people responsible for venues have made their decision and we respond to that in our own way, i am moving on, you can stagnate on this thread if you wish, but will have to do so on your own. Should you not be doing something exciting and dangerous instead of sitting at this keyboard.Odd, I ask Raul for comment and "Dan" answers :confused:

Which, if any of them, does not care if competitors get hurt?

it is quite a big Nit. Ceroc does not want people to get hurt by aerials at their venues, but the championships are a Ceroc Venue.

David Franklin
27th-April-2007, 07:21 AM
This Monday Twirlie Bird and I were on that championship sized dance floor (space for 300 couples) with just two other couples. OK. I agree with you that with that amount of space it would be reasonable to do aerials.

Now, as I suggested in another post, why don't you actually try to construct a proposal around this? E.g. (off the top of my head, and not meant to be complete or something I support)


"Rather than a blanket ban on aerials, each venue manager could decide upon a 'safe capacity for aerials'. Once there are more than that number of people on the floor, an announcement would be made, and the signs banning aerials put up".

I think there are lots of questions you'll need to answer, and if the true situation is that Ceroc's insurance company have told them "no aerials on freestyle nights", nothing you suggest will make any difference.

But at least you'd be making a rational argument.

bigdjiver
27th-April-2007, 11:19 AM
OK. I agree with you that with that amount of space it would be reasonable to do aerials.

Now, as I suggested in another post, why don't you actually try to construct a proposal around this? E.g. (off the top of my head, and not meant to be complete or something I support)


"Rather than a blanket ban on aerials, each venue manager could decide upon a 'safe capacity for aerials'. Once there are more than that number of people on the floor, an announcement would be made, and the signs banning aerials put up".
I think there are lots of questions you'll need to answer, and if the true situation is that Ceroc's insurance company have told them "no aerials on freestyle nights", nothing you suggest will make any difference.

But at least you'd be making a rational argument.One problem with aerials in the space at the start of an evening is that it would deter people from coming onto the floor. Another is that the dancers might not be warmed up enough.

At the end of class nights, after the taxi dancers have finished and many have gone home, is when I normally practise. It used to be the practise at ice rinks to have periodic short speed sessions, where the less able skaters were advised to leave the floor.

In some venues it is possible to have a designated area, away from the main dancefloor. That could be done at Wellingborough. It would just fomalise the de facto situation. At Kettering the stage juts out leaving a sort of min-boxing ring area to one side of it. That is where I practise my evil art. At most there is only one couple in the vicinity. If they are known good dancers I do not have to worry about them at all. On the other side there is slightly more room, but it is often safe there too.

bigdjiver
27th-April-2007, 11:25 AM
One thing missing from this thread is a conspiracy theory. I spent over an hour composing a reply to Francks initial post, put it into preview, and .... gone into the ether.

:devil: Franck the evil forum overlord? :devil:


:flower: One thing my vanished post did say was that I was very grateful to Franck for giving us all the the place and opportunity to discuss the matters which concern us. :clap:

StokeBloke
27th-April-2007, 12:40 PM
OK. I agree with you that with that amount of space it would be reasonable to do aerials.
I thought I was going mad, and all along it would seem that the majority of people here are just not used to the huge under subscription of many of Ceroc Midlands venues. I would say to come and dance on these vast empty dance floors in the Midlands, but then they may start to fill up :D


Now, as I suggested in another post, why don't you actually try to construct a proposal around this? E.g. (off the top of my head, and not meant to be complete or something I support)


"Rather than a blanket ban on aerials, each venue manager could decide upon a 'safe capacity for aerials'. Once there are more than that number of people on the floor, an announcement would be made, and the signs banning aerials put up".
I tried to speak to the Franchisee about reasons and alternatives. But when he ran out of answers for my fairly basic questions. I was told very abruptly that ''if I didn't like it I should run my own venue" :eek:


I think there are lots of questions you'll need to answer, and if the true situation is that Ceroc's insurance company have told them "no aerials on freestyle nights", nothing you suggest will make any difference.

But at least you'd be making a rational argument.
I can confirm, as I was told categorically on Tuesday by Mike Allsopp (Franchisee for Ceroc Midlands, regular Ceroc teacher and a member of the Ceroc committee) that this ban has absolutely nothing to do with insurance. He told me in no uncertain terms, that he was at the meeting where this ban was decided upon and it is solely a safety issue and nothing whatsoever to do with insurance.

bigdjiver
27th-April-2007, 02:23 PM
... nothing whatsoever to do with insurance.I wonder if the insurance company would agree? (but let sleeping dogs lie).

I believe that Ceroc should take expert legal advice before imposing a ban.

Lee Bartholomew
27th-April-2007, 02:39 PM
What are the details of the incident leading to this ban?

DavidY
27th-April-2007, 02:45 PM
I believe that Ceroc should take expert legal advice before imposing a ban.Possibly.. but at the end of the day if it's their club, they can ban a move for whatever reason - there doesn't have to be a legal requirement why they'd want to.

If I started my own club and made it a condition of membership that no-one could do the "Wurlitzer" move (because it reminded me too much of previous tramautic experiences with organs) then I'm pretty sure that legally I could do this.. :whistle: (Although I'm not a lawyer so I can't be definitive on that.)

Whether or not anyone would want to dance at my club would be up to them.

Trousers
27th-April-2007, 02:54 PM
I believe that Ceroc should take expert legal advice before imposing a ban.

Why exactly should they? They provide a service, the limitations they place on use of that service are theirs to define and yours to adhere to.


He was pointed out to me, and I saw this alleged male do a "through the legs" on a busy floor, which is something I would not do.

I'm sorry chap but all your recent posts seem to have the same tone "I'm OK if not perfect" well I've seen you do moves I thought dodgy before now.
I know damn well I aint perfect and i bet there are dancers that have cringed watching me dance, for use of floor or suitability of move, I've apologised mid dance for crappy choice of move. I try and dance well but I don't just assume I can.


Ceroc the company feels safer saying no Air Moves - I feel that is a good move, You don't. Yet some air move champions say they agree with Ceroc. Do you really know better than them?

bigdjiver
27th-April-2007, 03:19 PM
... I'm sorry chap but all your recent posts seem to have the same tone "I'm OK if not perfect" well I've seen you do moves I thought dodgy before now. I have done moves that were "dodgy", and some of them have had consequences that I regret. I try to learn and improve. I have experienced pain, and lucky near misses, from bad practise by partners and by other dancers too. When I say all MJ carries risk I speak from experience.


Yet some air move champions say they agree with Ceroc. Do you really know better than them?And some air move champions and senior teachers have done air moves at class nights and freestyles, giving myself, and I believe many others, great pleasure.

However great the champion I do not believe that they can adequately judge events that they are tens of miles away from. I believe that the "commander in the field" is best placed to judge circumstances.

I have seen the argument that such certain moves done safely will encourage others to do them unsafely. I cannot argue with that. I was put onto the fact that aerials would add to MJ by watching David & Lily perform and others performing at championships. By having aerials at championships Ceroc is inspiring others to perform them. Ceroc is a multi-national business. Ceroc Australia videos and Nikki Haslams teaching inspired my repetoire. Encouraging aerials in some aspects, and banning them in others is not a position I would like to defend.

bigdjiver
27th-April-2007, 03:23 PM
Apologies to Trousers and others. I asked for a previous post to be deleted.

Keefy
27th-April-2007, 03:44 PM
With all due respect I don't think that it is about safety, that's just an excuse because if it was about safety there would be enhanced risk assessments with procedures and guidelines for all so called "dangerous" moves including aerials. This whole episode sounds to me like a knee jerk panic over reaction to the fear of being sued, it's about protecting the corporate backside and putting up signs that attempt to limit liability without actually having to do anything about overall safety.

The irony is that I now firmly believe that it is MORE likely that Ceroc UK or a franchise holder will be sued for negligence. Why? Because sitting in your committees you have decided that aerials are "dangerous", you have established the very important principle that you are capable of making that decision and that management of the situation is impossible and that an outright ban is the only answer. What will happen next is that somebody will be injured doing a deep drop or some such other move. Some smart QC will then argue that you have been negligent in not banning other "dangerous" moves as you have done with aerials. This ban has created the thin end of a very dangerous wedge IMHO.

OK, what should have been done? I hope that we can all agree that aerials are potentially dangerous, be that in the wrong hands or in the wrong environment. I think that we can also agree that not all teachers or franchise holders are capable of teaching or policing unsafe aerials. But I hope that we can also agree that there are people capable of performing aerials safely and that there are venues and occasions where the practicing of aerials can be done safely, there are also professions capable of making that judgement and managing the situation. So rather than just defining and banning aerials what should be done is the production of a set of procedures and guidelines defining what is and what isn't safe practice. These guidelines can then be rolled out across the country with sample risk assessments etc. Individual franchise and venue managers could then apply these guidelines to their own local environment and make an informed decision themselves as to when, where and if aerials could be safely performed. These guidelines could also extend to the management of other moves and situations with an injury potential.

What this will achieve is that you are managing the situation, you will have a defined set of procedures and guidelines to be followed, you will have taken due care in determining the safety of your venues. If you have taken that due care, provided and documented your procedures and risk assessments, the said QC will have one hell of a job proving negligence - because you have acknowledged and managed the risks correctly.

I would be interested to hear why this approach of education and risk management has not been used before deciding that a blanket ban is the only option.

Trousers
27th-April-2007, 03:50 PM
Keefy it's a thought but then maybe not

All that will happen is that on entry to a venue you will be asked to sign a disclaimer saying that you understand the risks involved in dancing and therefore continuing on into the venue are prepared to take those risks.

Just like paint ball, just like go karting, just like bungee jumping.

TheTramp
27th-April-2007, 03:59 PM
Look. I decided I wasn't going to post anymore on the subject, but you keep going on, and on, and on. Saying the same things.

So, here's my final, final thoughts.

Ceroc have decided that they don't want aerials at their venues. It's totally within their rights to do that. For whatever reason they choose. Whether or not it adversely affects their business, only time will tell, but they're probably very grateful for all the warnings that you've provided.

Some people will like this, some won't (and, according to the poll that was asked for, more like the fact that it's being stopped than want it to keep going).

Those that don't have 2 options. Keep going, and don't do aerials. Or stop going. Please note that you can still do all the aerials you want anywhere other than at a Ceroc social night, and yes, that does include certain categories at the Ceroc competition. I don't find this to be strange. In social driving on the roads, you are restricted to 70mph, but when it comes to competative driving, much higher speeds are allowed. Go figure.

I think that we've heard all the arguments put forward by the same few people who want to do aerials (interestingly, none of the 'experts' in the field are included in this group). Can I suggest that unless there's something new, repeating them AGAIN won't actually make any difference.

:flower:

Keefy
27th-April-2007, 04:11 PM
Keefy it's a thought but then maybe not

All that will happen is that on entry to a venue you will be asked to sign a disclaimer saying that you understand the risks involved in dancing and therefore continuing on into the venue are prepared to take those risks.

Just like paint ball, just like go karting, just like bungee jumping.As a general principle such disclaimers are not worth the paper they are printed on, under UK law you cannot absolve yourself of liability.

StokeBloke
27th-April-2007, 04:26 PM
I would be interested to hear why this approach of education and risk management has not been used before deciding that a blanket ban is the only option.
You're not alone :sigh:

bedforddipper
27th-April-2007, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by Trousers http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/images/orange_buttons_basic/viewpost.gif (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/12193-new-ceroc-aerial-rules-post365875.html#post365875)
Keefy it's a thought but then maybe not

All that will happen is that on entry to a venue you will be asked to sign a disclaimer saying that you understand the risks involved in dancing and therefore continuing on into the venue are prepared to take those risks.

Just like paint ball, just like go karting, just like bungee jumping.

As a general principle such disclaimers are not worth the paper they are printed on, under UK law you cannot absolve yourself of liability.

Do we have a barrister within our midst that would be prepared to quantify the above, from a dancers point of view - let Ceroc management find their own.
We of course would like FREE advice! :yeah:

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy: - Ceroc

Twirlie Bird
27th-April-2007, 05:34 PM
What will happen next is that somebody will be injured doing a deep drop or some such other move. Some smart QC will then argue that you have been negligent in not banning other "dangerous" moves as you have done with aerials. This ban has created the thin end of a very dangerous wedge IMHO. .

Interesting angle. I hadn't thought of this before. :rolleyes: I guess what you are saying is true. The fact that Ceroc are actually admitting a move is dangerous highlights the fact that some moves are considered dangerous. Some of the things that people win court cases on are ludicrous at the best of times. :sick:


OK, what should have been done? I hope that we can all agree that aerials are potentially dangerous, be that in the wrong hands or in the wrong environment. I think that we can also agree that not all teachers or franchise holders are capable of teaching or policing unsafe aerials. But I hope that we can also agree that there are people capable of performing aerials safely and that there are venues and occasions where the practicing of aerials can be done safely, there are also professions capable of making that judgement and managing the situation.

Yes, yes , yes and yes. :clap: I agree with all of this. Common sense is what it's about. There's suitable times and places for aerials and this doesn't just have to be in a competition. :rolleyes: There's also times and places that aerials are completely out of the question. :what: Agreed totally. Of course there are also people who should never even consider aerials! :angry:


So rather than just defining and banning aerials what should be done is the production of a set of procedures and guidelines defining what is and what isn't safe practice.

What a fabulous idea. :respect: It sounds like hard work though so maybe it's a case that the easiest option has been taken. :confused:


I would be interested to hear why this approach of education and risk management has not been used before deciding that a blanket ban is the only option.
This is exactly what I have been trying to say since finding out about this ban. I completely understand why something has been done I just don't understand the actual thing that's been done.:sick:

Twirlie Bird
27th-April-2007, 05:38 PM
Can I suggest that unless there's something new, repeating them AGAIN won't actually make any difference.



You can but I don't expect it will make a blind bit of difference. :rofl:

Trousers
27th-April-2007, 05:45 PM
As a general principle such disclaimers are not worth the paper they are printed on, under UK law you cannot absolve yourself of liability.

Who said abslove?

I thought I said accept

TheTramp
27th-April-2007, 06:44 PM
What a fabulous idea. :respect: It sounds like hard work though so maybe it's a case that the easiest option has been taken. :confused:

This is exactly what I have been trying to say since finding out about this ban. I completely understand why something has been done I just don't understand the actual thing that's been done.:sick:

I don't want to be taken as making personal comments again, but, by your own admission, neither you or StokeBloke have been dancing that long.

Maybe all the things that you've suggested have been tried in places. As I said, I know of one person (who has been dancing many years) in Glasgow that's been warned on a number of occasions, and been temporarily banned once, and he still does these things.

Last week, I watched someone that I thought was sensible doing a completely stupid move, and, when I said about it to them afterwards, they told me how safe it was (not for them, but for all the people around them). Which was totally wrong.

Could you, just for a moment, consider that, while it may POSSIBLY upset your enjoyment of dancing (and, I watched you both dance during the set you said you enjoyed at Chill - you looked like you were having fun, there was plenty of room, and you didn't do a single aerial then!) slightly, but, overall, the aim of the exercise is to make the dancefloor safe for everyone who comes, and to increase the pleasure of the vast majority of people who don't do aerials. And then, just maybe agree that it might POSSIBLY be for the best, and you'll give it a chance?

And remember that I'm not one of these people who never liked aerials - I did them, and enjoyed doing them, and, on the whole, having watched some of the people around who do them, feel that it's for the best.

Gus
27th-April-2007, 08:32 PM
The craziest thing of all Gus is one of the aerials we love to dance was taught to us on that empty dance floor by Mike Allsopp, the Ceroc Midlands franchisee, about a month ago! So, we get taught a move by a teacher with over 10 years dance experience

Then people read my posts and wonder why I am confused.

You are confused??? Not half as much as me. AFAIK Mike isn't CTA qualified, and I dont know that he's ever been trained to teach aerials. I've been qualified to teach for 8 years and taught aerials by some of the best ... and I KNOW I'm not qualified to teach aerials. Do you see where I'm going? ............

bigdjiver
28th-April-2007, 12:07 PM
...
And remember that I'm not one of these people who never liked aerials - I did them, and enjoyed doing them, and, on the whole, having watched some of the people around who do them, feel that it's for the best.I do not suppose Frankie manning does as many aerials as he used to either.

I believe that others should have the opportunity to share that growth experience.

Gus
28th-April-2007, 12:11 PM
I do not suppose Frankie manning does as many aerials as he used to either.So are you saying Trampy is old and past it ... and of comparable age to Messr Manning? :whistle:

Gus
28th-April-2007, 12:12 PM
I believe that others should have the opportunity to share that growth experience.what about learning form the wisdom of otheres. To date I don't think there has been one post from a 'recognised' instructor that has been pro-aerials. Wonder if that says anything?

bigdjiver
28th-April-2007, 01:01 PM
what about learning form the wisdom of otheres. To date I don't think there has been one post from a 'recognised' instructor that has been pro-aerials. Wonder if that says anything?No, it does not. Nobody sane would say any move is always safe. Mention has been made on this forum of the Michaella spare arm. Very ocassionally we get a beginner who has not been listening properly trying to spin too near somebody else with her arm sticking out. Pain is a great teacher, although too often over-expensive.

StokeBloke
28th-April-2007, 04:26 PM
what about learning form the wisdom of otheres. To date I don't think there has been one post from a 'recognised' instructor that has been pro-aerials. Wonder if that says anything?
They have broken their arms doing aerials? :rofl:

StokeBloke
28th-April-2007, 04:35 PM
Could you, just for a moment, consider that, while it may POSSIBLY upset your enjoyment of dancing (and, I watched you both dance during the set you said you enjoyed at Chill - you looked like you were having fun, there was plenty of room, and you didn't do a single aerial then!) slightly, but, overall, the aim of the exercise is to make the dancefloor safe for everyone who comes, and to increase the pleasure of the vast majority of people who don't do aerials. And then, just maybe agree that it might POSSIBLY be for the best, and you'll give it a chance?
Yes. I am willing to give it that consideration. It wouldn't be so bad if it was a temporary ban pending investigation of a more satisfactory solution. I don't want to see anyone hurt! That is why I feel that the solution lies in education rather than a blanket ban. Could you POSSIBLY for half a moment consider the overall benefit to everyone if we had dangerous moves done by safe dancers - rather than - safe moves done by dangerous dancers.

The dance we had at Chill was indeed awesome, but as the lead of that dance I can tell you straight that the only reason it didn't involve one of the lovely little moves we do is because we were told catagorically that all aerials were banned. Being our first weekender we didn't want to be getting thrown out. But had we felt able to, that dance would have included at least one aerial - and I know you would agree that there was plenty of room to end on a bunny hop.

That was an awesome set you played BTW :worthy:

bigdjiver
28th-April-2007, 06:02 PM
As a general principle such disclaimers are not worth the paper they are printed on, under UK law you cannot absolve yourself of liability.One piece of case law I came across was water on the floor causing someone to slip over. The venue was found liable because they failed to clear up the spillage OR display a warning.

bigdjiver
28th-April-2007, 06:23 PM
With all due respect I don't think that it is about safety, that's just an excuse ...People who run businesses are often in permament overload. They tend to make decisions quickly, by instinct. "Knee-jerk" reactions. Often they are so busy on Tuesday because they are trying to fix what they got wrong Monday.

I am fighting this battle on two fronts. The second front is against the "reasons" for the ban, what you call "excuses." People are rationalising creatures rather than rational ones. Our logical brains find "reasons" for things we want to do. e.g. "Keep fit" instead of "meet birds".

Unfortunately we tend to accept more readily those arguments and "facts" that suit our purposes than those which contradict them. In the end it is almost impossible to convince us otherwise because, even if one dodgy fact or argument falls we think that all of the other dodgy facts and arguments support our position anyway. Sometimes people fail to recognise the situation where the last remaining pillar of their position collapses. Sometimes the know that they have lost but ego keeps them from admitting it.

That is why I have been nit-picking, trying to kill all of the nits. H.Q. is likely to feel that they will lose face to retract their position, and are likely to cling to any of the straws that we can see floating in this thread.

bigdjiver
28th-April-2007, 06:40 PM
...The irony is that I now firmly believe that it is MORE likely that Ceroc UK or a franchise holder will be sued for negligence...That is the First front that I have fought this decision on, with an email to my local franchisee.

The scenario I fear:-

Someone is injured doing a move and sues the person allegedly responsible, and Ceroc. The court has to decide whether one or both of the defendants are liable. The alleged perpetrator seeks to deny liability, and to heap as much blame on Ceroc as possible.

Her case against Ceroc is that the move is banned, and she was relying upon that fact when she entered the venue. She expected that anybody known to have performed that move knowing that it was banned would have been denied entry.

It may be a venue manager that believed the ban was too extreme that turned a blind eye to previous instances of the perpetrator doing that move, or it may be that the perpetrator was banned but the franchisee has failed to implement systems that alerted other venues, or it may be that HQ has failed to implement systems to ensure that such a ban is implemented at all Ceroc venues. As a juror I would be thinking Ceroc had a case to answer. I might even be more likely to increase Ceroc's share of the blame because they were better able to afford restitution, and as a warning to tighten up their act.

When the other defendent starts trying to shift the blame by saying he was inspired to do this move after he had seen it at the Ceroc Championships, and in a Ceroc traininjg video, and it was in fact the Ceroc logo ...

StokeBloke
28th-April-2007, 07:46 PM
You are confused??? Not half as much as me. AFAIK Mike isn't CTA qualified, and I dont know that he's ever been trained to teach aerials. I've been qualified to teach for 8 years and taught aerials by some of the best ... and I KNOW I'm not qualified to teach aerials. Do you see where I'm going? ............
Mike teaches a couple of beginner and intermediate classes every week Gus, he has done so regularly for the last six months that we have been dancing. Ceroc allow him to do this because there are just no teachers for him to employ.

I never said he was a CTA qualified teacher, I said he was a regular teacher. I am sure if there wasn't a shortage of teachers Mike would provide a proper qualified teacher for class nights at Stoke and Burton. But you have to understand that without his input there may be no Ceroc in those towns at all. Maybe Mike is around to clarify the situation further for you as I'm not entirely sure how it all works.

fletch
29th-April-2007, 04:33 AM
Ceroc allow him to do this because there are just no teachers for him to employ.

.


:confused:

has he got though all of them then :innocent:

Lee Bartholomew
30th-April-2007, 03:40 PM
Right !!!!!


I now agree with the no Aerials on the social floor rule after what I saw this weekend at Camber.

Friday night some idiot got a woman in that fall back move (Woman stand back to mans front. He holds her under the arms she then leans back (rep to first person to name the move)). He then rotated her at spead causing her legs to spin up at head height. The poor screaming woman nearly took out several people with her feet. The flor was so backed extra care was needed with an arm jive!!!!!. This bloke is ob a compleate p***k for even thinking it was possible.

"No aerials on the social floor" signs went up on the Sat morn. Don't know if it was due to this incident or not however......

Sunday night in the blues room was attended by the very reputable *******. You would have thought that this person how is highly respected amounst some dancers would obey the rules but uh ah. nope. He continuasly flung his partners about and almost took me and my parter out with a rotating aerial. Having watched the blokes dancing, I wasn't overly impressed but having seen his blantent disregard for the rules everyone else had to obay, he also lost any respect I had for him. There was no reason he should have done these moves and whats more, he done it on the small fixed floor in the blues room ocupied by quite a few people when there was plenty of room at the back where it would have been 100% safer as no one was about.


So what do you do in this situation? Ban aerials aprat from all the Billy Big Chip's who are too good for rules to apply, or let them lead by example?

I am really dissapointed in this man. Was looking forward to seeing what all the fuse was about only to find him disreagrding rules and having no floor awareness at all :angry: :angry: :angry: :mad: :mad: :mad:

bigdjiver
30th-April-2007, 04:48 PM
... I now agree with the no Aerials on the social floor rule after what I saw this weekend at Camber.

Friday night some idiot got a woman in that fall back move (Woman stand back to mans front. He holds her under the arms she then leans back (rep to first person to name the move)). He then rotated her ...:blush: :tears:
I used to do this move, although slowly and with the ladies feet just a couple of inches off the floor. It is the move I warned about on this forum. I stepped back when another pair approached, and the unforseen consequence was that her feet rose from the floor and moved away from me, just clipping the other pair. No pain involved, but a salutary lesson. I stopped doing it as soon as I realised that the centrifugal force was adding to the ladies weight and there was a real danger of back damage.


...at spead causing her legs to spin up at head height. The poor screaming woman nearly took out several people with her feet. The flor was so backed extra care was needed with an arm jive!!!!!. This bloke is ob a compleate p***k for even thinking it was possible...:yeah:


"No aerials on the social floor" signs went up on the Sat morn. Don't know if it was due to this incident or not however......To implement such a ban requires a floor manager. If there is a floor manager why not make the rule "No aerials without the floor managers consent."

That way if there is a safe place and the floor manger is assured that the dancers will not go outside their compentency zone and that aerials will add to the evening and not detract from it, then they could be allowed. The floor manager should make it clear that it aerials intrinsicly carry risks, and that that they do them away from other dancers and at their own risk.

That way the performers and the watchers can enjoy themselves without impairing the social dancers.

I accept that you and others did not like the occurance that you quoted, but I suspect that there was a queue of ladies wanting to join in as well.

Lee Bartholomew
30th-April-2007, 04:54 PM
:blush: :tears:
I used to do this move, although slowly and with the ladies feet just a couple of inches off the floor. It is the move I warned about on this forum. I stepped back when another pair approached, and the unforseen consequence was that her feet rose from the floor and moved away from me, just clipping the other pair. No pain involved, but a salutary lesson. I stopped doing it as soon as I realised that the centrifugal force was adding to the ladies weight and there was a real danger of back damage.

:yeah:

To implement such a ban requires a floor manager. If there is a floor manager why not make the rule "No aerials without the floor managers consent."

That way if there is a safe place and the floor manger is assured that the dancers will not go outside their compentency zone and that aerials will add to the evening and not detract from it, then they could be allowed. The floor manager should make it clear that it aerials intrinsicly carry risks, and that that they do them away from other dancers and at their own risk.

That way the performers and the watchers can enjoy themselves without impairing the social dancers.

I accept that you and others did not like the occurance that you quoted, but I suspect that there was a queue of ladies wanting to join in as well.

But that means 'employing' more people.

Me and Jamie got around the ban by dancing on the floor then jumping on the stage, carpet, clear non-dance floor area, performing the aerial, then back on to the floor to resume dancing.

bigdjiver
30th-April-2007, 05:54 PM
...Me and Jamie got around the ban by dancing on the floor then jumping on the stage, carpet, clear non-dance floor area, performing the aerial, then back on to the floor to resume dancing." ... carpet, clear non-dance floor area, " Some people would regrad these as part of the "social dance floor" at some venues. I have used the carpet area at Wellingborough for dancing with exuberant beginners whom I regarded as being too dangerous for the normal dance floor. I would not one of my clones in the vicinity whilst I was doing that, any more than my clone would want the exuberant beginner near him.

I do not think many Ceroc venues would allow you to climb onto the stage.

Lee Bartholomew
30th-April-2007, 06:02 PM
" ... carpet, clear non-dance floor area, " Some people would regrad these as part of the "social dance floor" at some venues. I have used the carpet area at Wellingborough for dancing with exuberant beginners whom I regarded as being too dangerous for the normal dance floor. I would not one of my clones in the vicinity whilst I was doing that, any more than my clone would want the exuberant beginner near him.

I do not think many Ceroc venues would allow you to climb onto the stage.

Then they should ban stage climing and aerials on social non-dance floors too. (salomons in Tunbridge Wells has the stages opened up to dance on as it's quite big and gives extra space.)


Also if you do an aerial on a sociable dance floor, does this make the dance floor uns-sociable which in turn, makes aerials ok?
:what:

Trousers
1st-May-2007, 07:28 AM
:confused:

has he got though all of them then :innocent:

Have you stopped dancing in the midlands again m'dear?

fletch
1st-May-2007, 09:16 AM
Have you stopped dancing in the midlands again m'dear?

No :na:

but I have decided to practise what I preach, and stop turning a blind eye, if something isn't right I have to say so :flower:

tsh
1st-May-2007, 10:45 AM
:blush: :tears:
I used to do this move...

I think that's a good enough example of how people assume that a move is safe, and it takes an incident before they learn that it isn't. You do it, someone else sees it and decides to copy it (if it's the move I'm thinking of, it's easily copyable), and so it spreads.

Trousers
1st-May-2007, 10:54 AM
No :na:

but I have decided to practise what I preach, and stop turning a blind eye, if something isn't right I have to say so :flower:

Should we start a sweep on how long it will be before you ARE banned then?

:wink:

Twirlie Bird
1st-May-2007, 11:07 AM
Should we start a sweep on how long it will be before you ARE banned then?

:wink:

:rofl: I think Fletch may need to get behind me in that queue at the moment :rofl:

TheTramp
1st-May-2007, 11:13 AM
but I have decided to practise what I preach, and stop turning a blind eye, if something isn't right I have to say so :flower:

Of course, what isn't right, can quite often be subjective. :flower:

Baruch
1st-May-2007, 11:44 AM
I now agree with the no Aerials on the social floor rule after what I saw this weekend at Camber.
That's got to be the biggest conversion since Saul (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=9&version=31&context=chapter) on the road to Damascus!

bigdjiver
1st-May-2007, 01:11 PM
Hey, you! No aerials on the dance floor.

:devil: It wasn't on the dance floor, it was in the air ... :whistle:

Trousers
2nd-May-2007, 10:31 AM
We have been forced to look elsewhere for dancing because of the Ceroc ban. I'm not sure others could afford to travel in the week, it makes for late evenings too.



That isn't technically true.

Said ban has curtailed you performing Air Steps - not Dancing at Stafford.

You have CHOSEN to dance elsewhere because you feel repressed in some way however you could also have CHOSEN to express yourselves with different moves.

But to say you were FORCED is a bit well laughable I'm afraid



Oh and trust me I ain't sticking up for you know who here!

Dreadful Scathe
2nd-May-2007, 11:51 AM
I know how scary it can be and i have landed on my head during practice. Funny though everyone else was faffing about me and i was like "ok shall we try and do it right this time"

The sawdust in your head helps :)



You have CHOSEN to dance elsewhere because you feel repressed in some way however you could also have CHOSEN to express yourselves with different moves.

But to say you were FORCED is a bit well laughable I'm afraid


Thats a bit cheeky. If SB feels Aerials are a part of his dancing then restricting IS forcing him to go elsewhere. If they made everyone dance on one leg would you be happy to make this change to your dancing or would you feel you have to leave the venue?

Its not a CHOICE when its forced on you is it :rolleyes:

Trousers
2nd-May-2007, 12:23 PM
Its not a CHOICE when its forced on you is it :rolleyes:

Ah the comment that Stokie made was that he was Forced to DANCE else where - but Dancing does not require the use of Airsteps and therefore the absence of said steps will not stop Stokie from dancing per se.

If you like he could have said I have been forced to dance else where because I am incapable of not performing airsteps whilst dancing, or I have been forced to dance elsewhere so that I can continue to use airsteps. He can not however say I have been forced to dance else where because of a ban on airsteps.

So it isn't really cheeky, pendantic i will admit to, possibly.

Dreadful Scathe
2nd-May-2007, 12:38 PM
ok pedantic then :)

StokeBloke
2nd-May-2007, 01:21 PM
I have been forced to dance elsewhere so that I can continue to use airsteps. He can not however say I have been forced to dance else where because of a ban on airsteps.
OK - I guess you may be laughing up your sleeve at me because I am new enough to still be passionate about dancing Trousers. You may well find my stance laughable (how very rude and uncouth to say so in such a blunt way). But the fact is when I dance with Twirlie Bird we dance for us, for our own pleasure, the connection we get on the floor makes us feel closer as a couple off of the floor. Whilst any air step needs more focus, you need huge trust, timing, skill and connection to do some of the bigger lifts properly. When we dance together it is an expression of love, trust, respect, joy and a million other things we feel personally as a couple.

It's odd because I don't see aerials like a different part of dancing, just like I don't see left hand moves as a separate category. It is all just part of my dancing, which may explain why I am so dead set against banning these moves. When I am dancing with Twirlie Bird the urge to lift her from the ground to match the musicality of the music is huge sometimes. Having to repress that effects the way we dance together in proper free-freestyles.

At the weekend in Nottingham Twirlie Bird said to me at the end of the night how wonderful it was to be able to just dance together without feeling like we needed to hold ourselves back. She was right - the freedom to dance as we love made the event feel so wonderful.

Maybe 'forced' wasn't the exact and precise word you would have used Trousers, but it conveyed the exact sense of our feelings. I am really sorry that your own experience of dance is such that you didn't understand that comment :flower:

Trousers
2nd-May-2007, 01:29 PM
. I am really sorry that your own experience of dance is such that you didn't understand that comment :flower:

Where exactly does 'my experience of dance' come into please?

I ask this before I let my sensitive nature believe that the above is a veiled (thinly veiled mind) dig.

bigdjiver
2nd-May-2007, 02:02 PM
Ah the comment that Stokie made was that he was Forced to DANCE else where -... ^ pendantic i will admit to, possibly.^ I can be pedantic too. A constraint is not a force, but to move a constraint can imply moving those things constrained, and this implies the use of force.


...but Dancing does not require the use of Airsteps ... Franck tried this one, too.

Dancing does not require the use of triple steps either, but tell that to the Swing dancers.

Also dancing does not require partners, or music, or companions or ....

What dancing does require is feeling, and some tracks and some ladies make me feel like lifting them up and whirling them around, and some of those ladies come back for more.

TheTramp
2nd-May-2007, 02:07 PM
But the fact is when I dance with Twirlie Bird we dance for us, for our own pleasure, the connection we get on the floor makes us feel closer as a couple off of the floor. Whilst any air step needs more focus, you need huge trust, timing, skill and connection to do some of the bigger lifts properly. When we dance together it is an expression of love, trust, respect, joy and a million other things we feel personally as a couple.

I read this, and was feeling so relieved that nature has worked out so wonderfully for you. You, being such a big and strong bloke, and TB being such a small and light lady.

It would have been a tragedy if your body shapes had been reversed, and you were unable to do aerials. All of that lost opportunity for love, trust, respect and joy, not to mention the other million things, lost to you forever.

Unless of course, she was to start picking you up instead.

Nature is just such a wonderful thing! :flower:

TheTramp
2nd-May-2007, 02:08 PM
What dancing does require is feeling, and some tracks and some ladies make me feel like lifting them up and whirling them around, and some of those ladies come back for more.

It's a good job that you're a big strong bloke too. If you'd been built like Trousers, you'd have lost out on all that feeling!

Nature. God bless her! :flower:

Trousers
2nd-May-2007, 02:11 PM
It's a good job that you're a big strong bloke too. If you'd been built like Trousers, you'd have lost out on all that feeling!

Nature. God bless her! :flower:

Oi I resemble that comment!

Gadget
3rd-May-2007, 05:46 PM
What dancing does require is feeling, and some tracks and some ladies make me feel like lifting them up and whirling them around, and some of those ladies come back for more.
... just a random thought... what did the music make you feel like doing before you learned to whurl the ladies off the floor? I mean, some music may make you feel like doing... unmentionable things: would you do them on the busy dance floor? Isn't that a restriction on your freedom as a dancer? Why is this any different?

bigdjiver
3rd-May-2007, 06:17 PM
... just a random thought... what did the music make you feel like doing before you learned to whurl the ladies off the floor? ...When the world was black and white I was exposed to Fred & Ginger and the 6 5 special on TV, with its lithe young jivers doing mentionable things.


.. I mean, some music may make you feel like doing... unmentionable things: would you do them on the busy dance floor? ... No, they would interfere with my dancing. (Sadly these days I see a beautiful woman and find myself thinking "I'd like to dance with her ...")


... Isn't that a restriction on your freedom as a dancer? Why is this any different? Way back, hen I used to start to experience the desire to do unmentionables whilst dancing I found that it did severely restrict my freedom as a dancer. :blush:

I have been trying to shift the Ceroc position of a narrow ban onto a more general position where it is up to the venue manager to take action if people dance inappropriately.

Rigid rules are too restrictive. It would be quite easy to ban floor-sweeps from the "social dance floor" at a busy venue, or a dancer taking a chair onto the centre of the dance floor whilst people are trying to dance. I have seen both these things recently. Neither endangered anybody else, and both seemed to delight all of those watching. Both involved performance.

I remember way back starting a thread about whether the dance-floor was more a canvas on which dancers could "paint" their art, or a stage on which we could act and perform, or a playground, or a meeting place. I believe that it should be all of those, and that for me is the soul of Modern Jive.

Mac
3rd-May-2007, 07:38 PM
... just a random thought... what did the music make you feel like doing before you learned to whurl the ladies off the floor? I mean, some music may make you feel like doing... unmentionable things: would you do them on the busy dance floor? Isn't that a restriction on your freedom as a dancer? Why is this any different?

Ahem ...........to some people it isnt any different and they get as close to the unmentionable things as they possibly can!:whistle:
( I love those ladies!):love: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Mac
3rd-May-2007, 07:40 PM
DISCLAIMER


Ok I am not looking to spark a huge debate here. :eek:

Oi you really started something now missus!!!!:D :cheers: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Steven666
18th-October-2007, 10:29 AM
I think it is the venue rather than a national thing. Ariels are banned at Nantwich but at Hyde you see them aplenty.

Maybe it's an insurance thing or something.

David Franklin
18th-October-2007, 10:36 AM
I think it is the venue rather than a national thing. Ariels are banned at Nantich but at Hyde you see them aplenty.

Maybe it's an insurance thing or something.Yes, it's an insurance thing. My understanding is the normal Ceroc insurance (public liability cover) won't cover for injuries from aerials. (It might even be that a condition of insurance is that no aerials are performed at the venues).

I suspect the Hyde franchise owner would be in considerable trouble if someone got seriously injured doing an aerial and sued.

Steven666
18th-October-2007, 10:41 AM
Yes, it's an insurance thing. My understanding is the normal Ceroc insurance (public liability cover) won't cover for injuries from aerials. (It might even be that a condition of insurance is that no aerials are performed at the venues).

I suspect the Hyde franchise owner would be in considerable trouble if someone got seriously injured doing an aerial and sued.

Or maybe pays higher premiums to cover such events.

Surely ariels can be insured against (at cost)?

David Franklin
18th-October-2007, 10:49 AM
Or maybe pays higher premiums to cover such events.I think Ceroc negotiates the premiums centrally. So a local franchise would have to get insured outside of the normal mechanisms, which would probably cost a lot more even without any extra "aerial premium".


Surely ariels can be insured against (at cost)?You can insure against anything, but generally the more specialist the area, the harder it is to find something that isn't prohibitively expensive.