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View Full Version : Footwork - how much do you incorporate into your dancing?



Terpsichorea
4th-April-2007, 10:00 AM
Just to refine the question, I'm talking about footwork borrowed from other dances, such as Salsa, Cha Cha Cha, Lindy etc. I'm wondering how many people on here have learned steps (or indeed other elements) from these dances and then incorporated them into their own, individual dancing style. Do they all work together, or is it like oil and water, you can mix them up for a while, but they eventually separate out?

And...perhaps more controversially, do any of you get frustrated by the lack of (substantial) footwork taught in Ceroc?

straycat
4th-April-2007, 10:26 AM
Just to refine the question, I'm talking about footwork borrowed from other dances, such as Salsa, Cha Cha Cha, Lindy etc. I'm wondering how many people on here have learned steps (or indeed other elements) from these dances and then incorporated them into their own, individual dancing style. Do they all work together, or is it like oil and water, you can mix them up for a while, but they eventually separate out?

I've always stuck in extra footwork, as long as I can remember (when I was a comparative beginner, I often used to get told off for putting in 'extra steps')

Nowadays, I'll use footwork that seems appropriate to the track - for example, with latin music, I might bring stuff in from Salsa or Cha Cha. I'll even bring in a little bit of Tango-esque footwork at times - though I'm not particularly good at that.

I'll also use quite a bit of the same footwork I use in Lindy (not so much the triple steps, but quite a bit of the more slidey stuff)

My two main criteria are: it needs to be appropriate to the style we're dancing in, and it must not disrupt the lead in any way (and it's frighteningly easy to let ones footwork upset ones lead - or follow - without realising it).



And...perhaps more controversially, do any of you get frustrated by the lack of (substantial) footwork taught in Ceroc?

Oddly enough, I don't. Probably because that very lack of footwork teaching allows me to improvise more freely, and experiment more with the dance. And since much of what I do is very much non-standard (ie: made-up), in terms of moves, I tend to need that freedom.

Yliander
4th-April-2007, 10:53 AM
Just to refine the question, I'm talking about footwork borrowed from other dances, such as Salsa, Cha Cha Cha, Lindy etc. I'm wondering how many people on here have learned steps (or indeed other elements) from these dances and then incorporated them into their own, individual dancing style. Do they all work together, or is it like oil and water, you can mix them up for a while, but they eventually separate out? I have learnt fragments and snippets of a number of different dances over the last few years and have no problems incorporating them into my ceroc – in certain cases that’s the whole reason I learnt them.

The styling elements can be pretty easy to incorporate – actual steps is harder and depends on the lead & the music. I find here that there are less guys I can use the other dance steps with – but with someone like Paul F – I find I have to draw on every bit of dance knowledge I have – and what a joy that can be.

You wouldn’t tend to use all styles in one dance – it Hip hop, rumba, tango, cha-cha – it’s a case of the music has a cha cha feel and wa la cha cha steps happen…



And...perhaps more controversially, do any of you get frustrated by the lack of (substantial) footwork taught in Ceroc? don’t even get me started!!! *were is a zipped mouth smilie when you need it*

Paul F
4th-April-2007, 11:02 AM
The styling elements can be pretty easy to incorporate – actual steps is harder and depends on the lead & the music. I find here that there are less guys I can use the other dance steps with – but with someone like Paul F – I find I have to draw on every bit of dance knowledge I have – and what a joy that can be.



Im not sure whether I should apologise or not :sick:

Lets see............
Dancing with me requires concentration?,
Doing your tax return requires concentration
.......SO....
Dancing with me is like doing your taxes. :what:

Is that what your saying? :grin:

straycat
4th-April-2007, 11:09 AM
Lets see............
Dancing with me requires concentration?,
Doing your tax return requires concentration
.......SO....
Dancing with me is like doing your taxes. :what:


Which would make you a Tax Dancer? :whistle:

Caro
4th-April-2007, 11:19 AM
Which would make you a Tax Dancer? :whistle:

in which case I'd happily be more taxed. :wink:


Re: footwork, personally I like to add / remove / modify steps, slides etc. I think a lot fo dancers would find MJ extremely boring if you were only to step on the beat. It brings another dimension to your dancing in that it enables (more) musical interpretation. The difficulty indeed as others have said is to do that without messing up the connection - I know I struggle to do that with some slides at the minute :blush: .

Terpsichorea
4th-April-2007, 11:21 AM
I've always stuck in extra footwork, as long as I can remember (when I was a comparative beginner, I often used to get told off for putting in 'extra steps')

Nowadays, I'll use footwork that seems appropriate to the track - for example, with latin music, I might bring stuff in from Salsa or Cha Cha. I'll even bring in a little bit of Tango-esque footwork at times - though I'm not particularly good at that.

I'll also use quite a bit of the same footwork I use in Lindy (not so much the triple steps, but quite a bit of the more slidey stuff)

My two main criteria are: it needs to be appropriate to the style we're dancing in, and it must not disrupt the lead in any way (and it's frighteningly easy to let ones footwork upset ones lead - or follow - without realising it).



Oddly enough, I don't. Probably because that very lack of footwork teaching allows me to improvise more freely, and experiment more with the dance. And since much of what I do is very much non-standard (ie: made-up), in terms of moves, I tend to need that freedom.

I've tried chucking in the odd bit of Lindy footwork or Cha Cha Cha, but when I start with the rock, rock, cha cha cha, I (more often than not) get confused looks and the lady gets flustered as she tries to follow what I'm doing.

So maybe that reveals an underlying problem with adding in footwork - in doing so, you run an increased risk that your partner (unless they're fairly knowledgeable) won't know what you're doing, and won't be able to respond appropriately.

Say, for example, you wanted to chuck in something like a First Move Tango Cross Slide. Unless the follower is very responsive, something like that would completely flummox her.

Yliander
4th-April-2007, 11:28 AM
Im not sure whether I should apologise or not :sick: only for the fact that I never get to have as many dances with you as I would like!


Lets see............
Dancing with me requires concentration?,
Doing your tax return requires concentration
.......SO....
Dancing with me is like doing your taxes. :what:

Is that what your saying? :grin:
:na: if only doing my taxes was like dancing with you

Yliander
4th-April-2007, 11:31 AM
I've tried chucking in the odd bit of Lindy footwork or Cha Cha Cha, but when I start with the rock, rock, cha cha cha, I (more often than not) get confused looks and the lady gets flustered as she tries to follow what I'm doing.

So maybe that reveals an underlying problem with adding in footwork - in doing so, you run an increased risk that your partner (unless they're fairly knowledgeable) won't know what you're doing, and won't be able to respond appropriately.

Say, for example, you wanted to chuck in something like a First Move Tango Cross Slide. Unless the follower is very responsive, something like that would completely flummox her.

yes there is an element of the follow needing to know the the steps - but there also the element of are you really leading it well - and often doing an extra repeat of the footwork will help the follow get what you are doing.

i find cha cha relatively easy to follow when thrown into the mix - proper lindy - I think would through me - as it has such a long footwork pattern.

mixing up the foot work is something that has to be done in consideration for the capabilites of your partner....

Paul F
4th-April-2007, 11:35 AM
Which would make you a Tax Dancer? :whistle:

Was going to make a joke about tax "returns" but I wont :rolleyes:

Seriously though, Skippy Blair has always said that the secret in dance (in this instance WCS) is that its what happens between beats that is most important. I feel that this relates to all styles.

Dance is, ultimately, about the transition of weight from one point to another. If we can dress this transition up with inobtrusive foot syncopations then thats great. Of course, as has been mentioned, this cannot interfere with the idea of connection.

As an example from Ceorc I usually use the first move. Generally teachers suggest that people take "a step back" on beat 1. I tend to disagree and favour taking 2 steps back. It smooths out the transition from point a to point b. This is possibly the simplest form of 'footwork' as its a decision that one person has that, in this instance, doesnt affect their partner.

Another example is foot swivels from Lindy. I would generally put these in when dancing to a fast track following some kind of whip (or slingshot move).

Isolations come into play when throwing in footwork. Many times people tend to try and throw in footwork but the concentration of putting that in causes a break in the connection. The trick is to isolate what is happening from the waist down.

I would suggest anyone interested should have a go at Carolina Shag. Ooof!

robd
4th-April-2007, 11:40 AM
Isolations come into play when throwing in footwork. Many times people tend to try and throw in footwork but the concentration of putting that in causes a break in the connection. The trick is to isolate what is happening from the waist down.


A big fat :yeah:

Struggle with this big-time in my attempts at learning WCS and some of the ballroom dances. I think I have got the lead right then realise I have messed up my own footwork, concentrate on my own footwork and the lead goes missing. Aaargh!

Cruella
4th-April-2007, 11:44 AM
Dancing with me is like doing your taxes. :what:
:

Yup, only happens once a year.:whistle:

robd
4th-April-2007, 11:47 AM
Yup, only happens once a year.:whistle:

That's Paul's Deed of Covenant :wink:

Cruella
4th-April-2007, 11:53 AM
As long as he's not getting relief on it!

straycat
4th-April-2007, 11:54 AM
Isolations come into play when throwing in footwork. Many times people tend to try and throw in footwork but the concentration of putting that in causes a break in the connection. The trick is to isolate what is happening from the waist down.

Another big :yeah: from me.
Something I only learned quite late in my Lindy development, and which I wish I'd known a lot sooner - the fact that someone only able to see your upper body while you dance should not be able to tell whether you're doing triple-steps or single-stepping your way through. You should ideally be able to dance with the leader doing triples, and the follower doing singles (or vice-versa) with absolutely no adverse effect on the lead / follow.

This has been a huge help when bringing a bit of Lindy footwork into MJ, because if I choose to put triples in from time to time, it doesn't affect the follower in the slightest. If she sees me doing it, and wants to follow suit, she can - but that's entirely optional. (of course - some followers see it, think they ought to be following it, and get flustered because they don't know how, but I'll generally take that as a signal to be a bit more conventional footwork-wise for the rest of the dance.)



I would suggest anyone interested should have a go at Carolina Shag.
Hope you checked with Carolina first before issuing that invitation... :devil:

Paul F
4th-April-2007, 11:59 AM
Yup, only happens once a year.:whistle:


Hope you checked with Carolina first before issuing that invitation... :devil:

:rofl: :rofl:
That made me laugh :grin:

Gadget
4th-April-2007, 01:27 PM
Just to refine the question, I'm talking about footwork borrowed from other dances, such as Salsa, Cha Cha Cha, Lindy etc. I'm wondering how many people on here have learned steps (or indeed other elements) from these dances and then incorporated them into their own, individual dancing style. Do they all work together, or is it like oil and water, you can mix them up for a while, but they eventually separate out?:D
My view is that feet are there to stop you from falling over. If you are sure you're not going to fall over, then they can be used to embelish the dance with 'footwork'.
As with any embelishment; if you're partner can't or dosn't do that style of embelishment, then don't do it. (The exception is when the lead frames the follow to give them space to embelish.)

It is easier for leads to insert footwork because they {should :innocent:} have more of an idea of what's happening and how they want the follower to react. Followers inserting footwork without it complimenting/mirroring the lead run a risk of being "wrong footed" by a lead. (eg lead trying to get you to move back with the right foot when all your weight is on it).


And...perhaps more controversially, do any of you get frustrated by the lack of (substantial) footwork taught in Ceroc?
Never. See line 1: feet are there to stop you from falling over. Manage that and that's all the footwork you need.

MartinHarper
4th-April-2007, 05:33 PM
As a lead:

1. Learn ways to move your feet and lower body. Tap is meant to be particularly good for this, though I've not tried it myself. Get a selection of these into muscle memory.
2. When partner dancing, get slightly off-balance. This should happen from time to time naturally. Let your feet stop you falling over. They'll use the tricks they know.

As a follow:
1. As above.
2. When partner dancing, get wrong-footed. Again, this should happen from time to time naturally. Let your feet get you back on the right foot. They'll use the tricks they know.

This is for individual footwork. I don't care much for leading footwork in Modern Jive, like your "First Move Tango Cross Slide". The dance doesn't seem set up to make it easy.

Terpsichorea
5th-April-2007, 07:43 AM
As a lead:

1. Learn ways to move your feet and lower body. Tap is meant to be particularly good for this, though I've not tried it myself. Get a selection of these into muscle memory.
2. When partner dancing, get slightly off-balance. This should happen from time to time naturally. Let your feet stop you falling over. They'll use the tricks they know.

As a follow:
1. As above.
2. When partner dancing, get wrong-footed. Again, this should happen from time to time naturally. Let your feet get you back on the right foot. They'll use the tricks they know.

This is for individual footwork. I don't care much for leading footwork in Modern Jive, like your "First Move Tango Cross Slide". The dance doesn't seem set up to make it easy.

The dance doesn't seem set up to make it easy...I would agree with this. As an experiment, I tried last night to do a lot more footwork with unfamiliar followers and it was pretty much unsuccessful. Most of them could follow it alright, provided that I hissed Columbian! etc in their ear before I did it. By universal consent, there didn't seem any other way to signal that I was about to initiate a move like that.

Yliander
5th-April-2007, 07:59 AM
By universal consent, there didn't seem any other way to signal that I was about to initiate a move like that. oh but there is Frame, tension, body lead

Tiggerbabe
5th-April-2007, 08:01 AM
Most of them could follow it alright, provided that I hissed Columbian! etc in their ear before I did it.
Sorry,*listen to the sound of the can opening* the Columbian can be followed properly, if it's lead properly, you don't need to hiss the name in your partner's ear. If you do, and she "follows", it's because she knows what she's supposed to do, it's then choreographed IMHO, not lead.

I can't lead the Columbian properly, yet :whistle:, and to be honest, there's not often the space to practice, but I've followed it loads of times without prompting. :)

straycat
5th-April-2007, 08:10 AM
:D
My view is that feet are there to stop you from falling over.

And for foot-massages. Don't forget them - they're very important... :waycool:

NZ Monkey
5th-April-2007, 08:24 AM
Sorry,*listen to the sound of the can opening* the Columbian can be followed properly, if it's lead properly, you don't need to hiss the name in your partner's ear. Heres my big :yeah: for the conversation.

The ''problem'' with it is that in order to lead it *both* partners have to have a good frame and posture, and understand what the lead feels like. That's a pretty rare combination with people you haven't practiced the move with in the first place.

Let's face it, as a follower even if you do have everything above, if nobody leads it well for long enough then the first time somebody does you'll probably miss it that time anyway. That's not anyones fault, it's just the reality of it all I think. :D

Terpsichorea
5th-April-2007, 10:42 AM
Sorry,*listen to the sound of the can opening* the Columbian can be followed properly, if it's lead properly, you don't need to hiss the name in your partner's ear. If you do, and she "follows", it's because she knows what she's supposed to do, it's then choreographed IMHO, not lead.

I can't lead the Columbian properly, yet :whistle:, and to be honest, there's not often the space to practice, but I've followed it loads of times without prompting. :)

When you've followed it successfully, what has it been about the lead which has enabled you to follow it? I had the correct handhold, butterfly grip, other hand holding just below lady's scapula yadda yadda, but other than really obviously telegraphing with my right foot - I am now placing my right foot behind my left - I can't see how I can communicate that I'm about to go into this move to my partner.

Gadget
5th-April-2007, 01:24 PM
When you've followed it successfully, what has it been about the lead which has enabled you to follow it?
The lead has to first be sure that you're back on the correct foot, then it's a matter of moving the follower's body forwards in the correct orientation so that the feet have to keep them upright and balanced, and in doing so produce the pattern of steps - I could (and have) led it with beginners.

Once you get the initial pattern, it's easier; followers tend to repeat untill you lead something else.

spindr
5th-April-2007, 07:55 PM
I can't see how I can communicate that I'm about to go into this move to my partner.

0 Start paralllel bodies, i.e. =
1 Step to left on left foot and lead to take right shoulders further apart, i.e. <
2 Step to left on right foot.
3 Step to left on left foot and lead to take right shoulder closer together, i.e. >
4 Step to left on right foot

Your body positions mean that:
on step 2 your right foot should *have* to step behind your left.
on step 4 your right foot should *have* to step in front of your left.

Cheers,
SpinDr