When is a beginner not a beginner?

[StokeBloke]

So, when does a beginner cease to be seen as a beginner?

This is something touched upon by Cruella in another thread. I feel sure it's been covered in terms of when do you move from beginner to intermediate classes or whatever. But, when is a dancer seen by their peers as no longer being a beginner? Is it time served on the floor? Attitude? Catalogue of moves?The number of venues or competitions attended? A combination? When does this transition take place in your mind? I know dancing is one of those things that you will never stop learning new things in (if you wish to). But when is a beginner no longer seen as a beginner?


As a mere beginner of five months I'm quite curious to know :flower:

[WittyBird]

So, when does a beginner cease to be seen as a beginner?

I think it's down to the person themselves to be honest. It's in your own attitude.

When you stop feeling like a beginner
When you stop acting like a beginner
When you stop worrying and smile

That is just my opinion hope it helps:D

[Minnie M]

It is all relative .........

The beginner will feel he/she is not a beginner if he/she can get through a whole track without going wrong especially when dancing with a more advanced dancer - however the advance dancer (being more experienced) is making the beginner feel this way.

I would say, stop putting labels on your dancing - just enjoying the dance and the more you dance the better you will be :flower:

Extra Note:

If you actually need to know your dancing status - for classes/competition/workshops etc., try attending the intermediate class, and if you find it too difficult - well there you go !

[David Bailey]

But when is a beginner no longer seen as a beginner?

In Ceroc, after 6 (or possibly a whole 12) lessons.

In AT, after 10 years of continuous work. :wink:

David "8 years, 7 months, 3 weeks and 2 days to go" James :waycool:

[Mythical]

For me, I stop seing a leader as a beginner once they can lead beginners moves smoothly, and with some variety. Wether that's after one lesson, or ten years.

[TheTramp]

I must not answer....

I must not answer...

I must not answer..

[SeriouslyAddicted]

Not sure why we feel the need to label people but IMHO your "status" probably depends on where you are dancing at the time. I have only been dancing a year but would say that at my local venue I don't consider myself a beginner. Compare that to a weekender or a venue in London and I feel like I could have only been dancing a couple of weeks.

[frodo]

So, when does a beginner cease to be seen as a beginner ...
A beginner follower is one where a leader doesn't have to be concerned with leading complex moves, or repeating themselves.

So essentially a beginner follower ceases to be a beginner, when the lead has to start worrying.

[StokeBloke]

The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner. When does a dancer become accepted by their peers no longer as a beginner. I know all the usual politically correct pap about beauty on the inside, it's the taking part that counts, and you know within yourself when you're ready for intermediate classes :rolleyes:

What I am talking about is real peer judgement - something that we all know happens. Even if we try to kid ourselves otherwise. Peer judgement as in "this is so-and-so, s/he's pretty good considering s/he's a beginner".

What tips the scales inside the dance community to delete that caveat? What is YOUR yard stick for measuring somebody as a dancer, and when do they leave the beginner phase of their dancing career. Please save the hippy-tree-hugging-lovey-dovey answers for another thread. Let's have it brutal, raw and honest :D

When is a beginner no longer a beginner in your eyes?

[WittyBird]

The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner. When does a dancer become accepted by their peers no longer as a beginner?

Err I think I answered that.

With this...

I think it's down to the person themselves to be honest. It's in your own attitude.

When you stop feeling like a beginner
When you stop acting like a beginner
When you stop worrying and smile

That is just my opinion hope it helps:D


The point I was trying to make is people can perceive your nervousness,inexperience etc.

having said that, when did Trampy stop being a beginner? - I don't think he thinks he has, but although that is said in jest - there is always a true word said in jest.

The point being, we are all beginners and there is always so much to learn.

[Ghost]

The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner.
I danced with a lady tonight who should definitely be classed as a "Ceroc beginner" - it was one of the best dances I had all night. Go figure.

The obvious answer as a lead as to whether I classify a lady as a "Ceroc beginner" is how well she can follow and how apparent it is she's never seen certain moves before. Which brings about the interesting situation of someone who's a "natural" or very experienced in another dance form, but hasn't done Ceroc much / at all. They're technically a beginner at Ceroc. Beyond that.....

There does seem to be different expectations from women if they've seen the guy dancing with someone else, particularly the "oh I'm not good enough to do that" response when the guy's just been made to look terrific by a skilled lady.

[David Bailey]

The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner.
Honestly, I don't really think about it that much.

Admittedly I used to, up until a few years back anyway - hmmm, maybe that's when I stopped being a beginner :innocent:


What tips the scales inside the dance community to delete that caveat? What is YOUR yard stick for measuring somebody as a dancer, and when do they leave the beginner phase of their dancing career.
My yardstick is "how well do they follow my lead" - I'm militantly indifferent to how long they've been dancing or how much experience they have.


When is a beginner no longer a beginner in your eyes?
The question you're actually asking is not "what is a beginner", but "what is an intermediate dancer", and there's no real answer to that; God knows we've debated it enough times.

The only thing I can add to that is that I strongly believe this "6 lessons" stuff is rubbish, I think most people usually need a solid year of dancing (with at least 50 lessons) before they can even think of becoming a non-beginner. Learning partner dancing is difficult.

In fact, if you have to have a classification, I'd have several more grades, to get the message across th- so something like:

Novice
Beginner
Improver
Intermediate
Experienced
Advanced
- Expert

[Trouble]

you stop being a beginner when you have the confidence to ask and not apologise all the way through the dance.

:flower:

[Gav]

you stop being a beginner when you have the confidence to ask and not apologise all the way through the dance.

:flower:

Some people are like that from day 1. They are also sometimes the ones that stay looking like beginners forever.

[the whale]

sometimes they stay looking like beginners forever.

Did someone call for me:wink:

D

[ducasi]

The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner. When does a dancer become accepted by their peers no longer as a beginner.
People are still missing this point – it's not when do you yourself stop being a beginner – it's when do other people stop being beginners to you.

I'd say beginners stop being beginners to me when they become either good, or bad, intermediates. ;)

OK, let me explain that...

Once through the beginner phase, followers have either learnt to follow quite well, or they've learnt the moves quite well. The ones that have learnt to follow I can usually dance well with. Those who have only learnt the moves I find it difficult to dance with as I don't tend to do the moves as they've learnt them. Fortunately most followers learn to follow quite well eventually. (Unfortunately some don't. :()

Let me clarify this... The "learnt to follow"ers have also learnt moves, and the "learnt the move"ers have learnt some following skill. It's about where their skills are most concentrated. Although I've classed no-longer-beginners into two categories, there's really a range of abilities between these two extremes. And as I said, once our new intermediates get some more experience, they are likely to balance out the skills they need to make them good dancers.

(Hope this makes sense to someone – not sure how much sense it makes to me. ;))

[tsh]

The whole point of this thread is to try and ascertain when YOU view a new dancer no longer as a beginner.

The only point at which this becomes a relevant question for me is if they have learnt so many bad habits that I no longer wish to dance with them. Luckily most of the places I dance now don't seem to suffer this problem...

Sean

[Gav]

Still waiting for the punchline ... :rolleyes:

[ducasi]

Still waiting for the punchline ... :rolleyes:
When it's ajar!

Hmm... Not sure that works... :confused:

[Ghost]

(Hope this makes sense to someone – not sure how much sense it makes to me. ;))
:yeah:

Put another way - how good to I have to be at leading a move for it to work on them? If I'm dancing with someone who hasn' learnt to follow and doesn't know any moves then I need to lead the move perfectly. I think it was Dizzy (?) who brought a friend to Slinkys one time who'd done no Ceroc at all - and then took her to the Blues Room :devil: Really good way to find out what you can actually lad and what moves women are "helping" you with.

So I'd say a beginner is someone I can expect little to no help from - I'm pretty much totally responsible for making the moves work. An intermediate will make my life easier and let me lead moves I haven't quite nailed without it noticing. The next level is when they can smoothly deal with things going wrong and they are adding to the dance either through styling, playing, floorcraft etc.

I really don't expect a beginner to be doing floorcraft.

[StokeBloke]

So I'd say a beginner is someone I can expect little to no help from - I'm pretty much totally responsible for making the moves work. An intermediate will make my life easier and let me lead moves I haven't quite nailed without it noticing. The next level is when they can smoothly deal with things going wrong and they are adding to the dance either through styling, playing, floorcraft etc.

I really don't expect a beginner to be doing floorcraft.
To paraphrase; it is more a case of how well they offset your inability, rather than their own ability that counts. If they are unable to mop up your mistakes/poorly led moves then they are beginners. If they can cope with anything you throw at them, and they are able to add some stuff in to make you look even better then they are not. Got it :flower:

OK, that sounds a bit of a harsh response to your well worded and considered reply. I'm just trying to strip it all back to the bare bones, that's all.

[Ghost]

To paraphrase; it is more a case of how well they offset your inability, rather than their own ability that counts. If they are unable to mop up your mistakes/poorly led moves then they are beginners. If they can cope with anything you throw at them, and they are able to add some stuff in to make you look even better then they are not. Got it :flower:

OK, that sounds a bit of a harsh response to your well worded and considered reply. I'm just trying to strip it all back to the bare bones, that's all.
:wink: Pretty much as I'm assuming their abilty to off-set my inability is based on their ability (I think :confused: )

Course the trick then is to resist the temptation to dance that way :flower:

But as a base-line distinction I think it works.

[David Bailey]

To paraphrase; it is more a case of how well they offset your inability, rather than their own ability that counts. If they are unable to mop up your mistakes/poorly led moves then they are beginners. If they can cope with anything you throw at them, and they are able to add some stuff in to make you look even better then they are not. Got it :flower:

OK, that sounds a bit of a harsh response to your well worded and considered reply. I'm just trying to strip it all back to the bare bones, that's all.
Actually, that's a nice definition - I like it :clap:

[StokeBloke]

Actually, that's a nice definition - I like it :clap:
How do other follows view their peers when it comes to being beginners?

So where does that leave leads? When is a lead no longer a beginner in the eyes of leads and follows?


By jove, it looks like we're getting somewhere!

[Trouble]

well thats easy.... A lead is no longer a beginner when he can make a beginner look like an intermediate. :respect:

[LMC]

I like that definition too :respect: SB.

But because I am mean and horrible, I would like to offer the suggestion that you are no longer a beginner when you no longer feel the need to ask someone how long they have been dancing. Because instead, you can get a good idea of the quality of their connection/lead/follow and therefore their "ability" by dancing with them ...

[Ghost]

So where does that leave leads? When is a lead no longer a beginner in the eyes of leads


By jove, it looks like we're getting somewhere!

For pure beginner to starting intermediate - they don't get "stuck" repeating beginner moves (You know the "I keep dancing manspin followed by yo-yo folllowed by manspin...." look :sick: ) and they're not having to think about what comes next either in terms of moves or in parts of moves (Step her out and um, help). Well much anyway :flower: They can cover a basic mistake in the beginners moves cleanly and with a smile :) And then carry on dancing without being rattled.

Moving from the beginner / intermediate threshold to the intermediate / competent intermediate threshold is when the lead is dealing with their own floorcraft rather than relying on those around them. If they're dancing with an competent intermediate + follow, they look like they're dancing the beginner moves with their partner rather than having a wrestling match.

[JiveLad]

:yeah:

I think it was Dizzy (?) who brought a friend to Slinkys one time who'd done no Ceroc at all - and then took her to the Blues Room :devil: Really good way to find out what you can actually lad and what moves women are "helping" you with.



I Jive lad each time I go dancing. :na:

=====================

[nebula]

What I am talking about is real peer judgement - something that we all know happens. Even if we try to kid ourselves otherwise. Peer judgement as in "this is so-and-so, s/he's pretty good considering s/he's a beginner".

When is a beginner no longer a beginner in your eyes?

I felt a total beginner when I went to Camber in March - even though by then I was dancing for about 5 months.
After coming back, in comparison with my "peers" I felt ... er... superior... wrong word, I know, but nothing else comes to mind at the mo...
The real "not a beginner anymore" thing was when the guy I used to dance with :D - a lot! - asked whether I've been taking some private lessons. I was really shocked when, after me acknowledging the Camber expedition, he said that my dancing has really "rocketed" - his exact words.
Yesterday I was leading in the beginners class, and another lady asked me for a dance after the lesson. Now, :worthy: I fully admit that I am crap in freestyle - not experienced enough to go beyond the lesson boundaries. But, and it was a big but - she, apparently, has been dancing 3 months longer than I have - and I would classify her as a total beginner. :sad: She didn't have any sense of music, beat, no spinning technique whatsoever, etc, etc. :whistle:
I think the beginner follower stops being seen seen as a beginner when the leader can do more complicated moves without fear of it all going horribly wrong. And a beginner leader - when the more experienced follower will accept the dance request without :( mentally rolling her eyes and preparing to be bored out of her mind with the repetitive repertoire.

For both - it's the style that counts!:flower: If you are a wooden plank :sick: - dance for 3 years, and you would still be viewed as a beginner!

[Beowulf]

let me see...



When you stop feeling like a beginner - False
When you stop acting like a beginner - Nope
When you stop worrying and smile - Nope on this one too


See.. I AM still a beginner :wink: :na:

I think IMHO it's confidence, when people see you are confident and not nervous then they will not perceive you as a beginner.

Of course, I have a dirty trick. I never say "I'm a beginner" during dances. That would be a fib.. I do however state "Please forgive my beginner moves" and hope they never ask how long I've been dancing ! :whistle:

[Trouble]

let me see...



See.. I AM still a beginner :wink: :na:

I think IMHO it's confidence, when people see you are confident and not nervous then they will not perceive you as a beginner.

Of course, I have a dirty trick. I never say "I'm a beginner" during dances. That would be a fib.. I do however state "Please forgive my beginner moves" and hope they never ask how long I've been dancing ! :whistle:

awww Beo.... that is a straight forward confidence thing. Are you going to southport!! - i would love to try out your beginner moves, i bet your lovely to dance with xx :love:

[Raul]

I must not answer....

I must not answer...

I must not answer..

A beginner is not a beginner ....

when he is also The Forum Legend :rofl:





The answer to the question depends on the silent part of the question "to who?"

To himself - it depends on his level of self belief, his attitude, his delusion whatever.

To others - it depends who they are. To somebody who judges himself to be better - yes otherwise no. Judgement sometimes has no relation to ability, perfectionists see everyone as a beginner, the deluded thinks of himself as particularly brilliant.

.

[Raul]

That would be a fib.. I do however state "Please forgive my beginner moves" and hope they never ask how long I've been dancing ! :whistle:

I would never dare say that !

In my case they could very well answer "Don't worry, you'll get better ...... eventually." :what: :sick:

.

[Dorothy]

Defn of beginner:
1. a person or thing that begins.
2. a person who has begun a course of instruction or is learning the fundamentals: swimming for beginners.
3. a person who is inexperienced; novice.

Perhaps through peer review and personal assessment they can decide when tey have elevated to the dizzy heights of intermediate!

Me- I am always learning :what: