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Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 04:28 PM
Ok,

Us men are often told that dancing (esp blues) is all about showing off your partner.

What if you get landed with a really bad follow whome not even a gold leafed frame with neon lights and a carnival parade could show off.

What if you end up with someone who, when you give them time and space to do their thing, looks at you like as if you were crazy.

Should you lower your dancing ability to match theirs, dance for yourself or keep as was to help them to raise theirs?

Let the fight begin. :whistle:

Trousers
26th-March-2007, 04:34 PM
GET LANDED????




W T F are u on?

Really Nice!

I hope you never GET LANDED with any more dances ever
10 out of 10 for conceite though

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 04:36 PM
GET LANDED????




W T F are u on?

Really Nice!

I hope you never GET LANDED with any more dances ever
10 out of 10 for conceite though


Lol. We have all been there trousers. Dancing with someone whome we really wish we wern't.

David Bailey
26th-March-2007, 04:37 PM
Us men are often told that dancing (esp blues) is all about showing off your partner.
Err....

I think that "In partner dancing, the guy shows the lady off" is a useful rule-of-thumb, but like other "axioms" ("it's always the leader's fault" etc.), it's only true to a point.

Also, I think that blues dancing (whatever that is) is explicity not about the visuals - in fact, that's why to some observers blues dancing looks bland and boring.

I suspect it'd be very difficult to win a competition dancing solely blues-style, for example.

But apart from that....


Should you lower your dancing ability to match theirs, dance for yourself or keep as was to help them to raise theirs?
The obvious and oft-repeated answer is that you dance with your partner, and only lead your partner into moves they can do - that's a key part of being a leader.

Twirly
26th-March-2007, 04:38 PM
What if you end up with someone who, when you give them time and space to do their thing, looks at you like as if you were crazy.

Assume that they are a beginner/donít have that much confidence/just donít feel like it and amend your dance accordingly.



Should you lower your dancing ability to match theirs,
Why do you consider simplifying your dance to be ďlowering your abilityĒ?


dance for yourself or
Thatís selfish! :angry: Itís a partner dance. Try focusing on your ability to lead clearly.


keep as was to help them to raise theirs?
In which case theyíll be posting on here or complaining to their friends ďThere was this dreadful bloke I danced with last night, he could see I was struggling, but he kept doing these really complicated moves and now I canít move my neckÖ itís going to take weeks of physiotherapy to make it all better. Iím never dancing with that numpty again!Ē. :tears:

Simplify things so that the person isnít struggling horribly but is still stretched somewhat.

Or are you trying to turn follows off Ceroc? :whistle:

Trouble
26th-March-2007, 04:40 PM
im sure what Woodface meant was GET LANDED.

if you have a dance with somebody that is bad, you have been landed with a bad dance, what is wrong with that. nothing conceited about it, its just fact. He is asking the question, what do you do, do you make a comment about their dancing, lower your dancing to match theirs, what do you do.

If i know the person im landed with, i will gently tell them, ie: try looking at me it does help, or go with me on this one, or i just grapple them into a hijack.

if i do not know them just go with the flow until its finished.

Im sure people think they have been landed with me when i ask them for a dance but, am I bovveredd NOOOOOOOOO.!!! :D :respect:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 04:43 PM
Or are you trying to turn follows off Ceroc? :whistle:

Just asking what people do and given the few options that I could think of.

I personally slow my dancing down abit and go through simpler moves that I feel they would be able to follow.

Don't do this all the time though, as sometimes I like to scare them enough to not ask me for a dance again :devil: (kidding BTW before all the neg rep comes flooding in)

Twirly
26th-March-2007, 04:43 PM
Lol. We have all been there trousers. Dancing with someone whome we really wish we wern't.

It's a few minutes of your life - if you can't be patient with a beginner/less good dancer for 5 minutes or less, then stick to hot shot territory and only ask those who have been dancing for years to dance. And say no to anyone who asks you, just to be safe :rolleyes:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 04:46 PM
Have you never been asked to dance by a man who turned out to be an awful dancer? Couldn't keep time? Held you in a tight grip? Pulled you about? Lead you in to unleadable moves?

straycat
26th-March-2007, 04:46 PM
Ok,

OK!


Us men are often told that dancing (esp blues) is all about showing off your partner.


Blues dance, (to me) is all about connection. Showing off your partner can often arise out of that, sure.



What if you get landed with a really bad follow whome not even a gold leafed frame with neon lights and a carnival parade could show off.

Then I'd say it's an ideal time to practice your skills at leading inexperienced / weak followers.


What if you end up with someone who, when you give them time and space to do their thing, looks at you like as if you were crazy.

Then do something different! (or you could always take her implied advice, and see a shrink :D)



Should you lower your dancing ability to match theirs, dance for yourself or keep as was to help them to raise theirs?

Or you could focus on giving her a good, clear lead, and find a way you can both enjoy the dance. Constantly worrying about how good you look is a sure-fire way to have miserable dances, IMOFO.

straycat
26th-March-2007, 04:48 PM
Have you never been asked to dance by a man who turned out to be an awful dancer? Couldn't keep time? Held you in a tight grip? Pulled you about? Lead you in to unleadable moves?

Yep! Still managed to have fun though (my following skills are almost that bad :cool: )

David Bailey
26th-March-2007, 04:53 PM
Im sure people think they have been landed with me when i ask them for a dance but, am I bovveredd NOOOOOOOOO.!!! :D :respect:
That's good... :innocent:

Gav
26th-March-2007, 04:54 PM
Ok,


Well, IMO, if a follower can only cope with basic moves, then I dance those basic moves to the best of my ability and try to make it as pleasurable for them as I can.
Sticking to the moves/dancing that my partner can handle isn't "lowering my game". Just dancing differently. :na:
Also, if I give my partner room to play and they give me that "***?" look, I take the lead back and don't give them space again, they're clearly not ready/happy with it. Hopefully they'll see me do the same with someone else and see what they do with the space. Again, not dumbing down, just different.

Trouble
26th-March-2007, 04:56 PM
That's good... :innocent:

:na: :na: :na:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 04:57 PM
Would you ask them to dance again though? :devil: Be honest

straycat
26th-March-2007, 05:01 PM
Would you ask them to dance again though? :devil: Be honest
Honestly? Yes.

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 05:02 PM
Honestly? Yes.


What about if they weren't even fit?

Trouble
26th-March-2007, 05:02 PM
Honestly? Yes.

ooooohhh you lickle ...........

anyway, would i ask a bad dancer to dance again.... NEVER. But i would never refuse either.

Double Trouble
26th-March-2007, 05:05 PM
Ok..I'm gonna blow some smoke up CJ's arse here.

CJ does mostly basic moves..but he does it with style and a strong lead.

He's the sort of lead that would make a beginner as well as a professional look great.

:respect: :respect: :respect:

David Bailey
26th-March-2007, 05:05 PM
Would you ask them to dance again though? :devil: Be honest
It depends :devil:

Actually, I reserve the right to be completely and utterly arbitrary in who I choose to dance with. It's my money, my time, and I'll choose whomsoever I want, based on whatever criteria I decide, to dance with.

That's balanced out by the fact that I don't (usually) turn anyone down - so I certainly wouldn't refuse a dance from someone, just because they're a beginner / bad dancer.

straycat
26th-March-2007, 05:05 PM
What about if they weren't even fit?

What difference does that make?

StokeBloke
26th-March-2007, 05:06 PM
Dancing isn't about moves. Moves are just a way to get around the floor dear boy :wink:

When I dance with anyone I do my uptmost to make sure that the dance we have is the high point of their night (I don't mean that in a concieted way - just a mental goal I set for myself). I dance with follows of all ability and my aim is always the same - best dance they have had that night.

There is a lady at one venue I dance at who is horrendous to dance with. Thumb grip of steel. Bouncy rabbit dance style. No musicality and dances at a set speed no matter what is playing. I always ask her to dance and always make a big fuss of her. We have had some real fun out on the floor together, and I have even managed to get her bouncing in time to the beat on a couple of occasions lately.

To do this means raising your game - not lowering it. If you can lead the un-leadable, imagine what happens when you have a champion to dance with :wink:

Maybe you need to step back and look at this problem from the opposite direction WF.

Ask not what your follow can do for you, but what you can do for..... :flower:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 05:06 PM
Ok..I'm gonna blow some smoke up CJ's arse here.


Made easier by the fact he wears a kilt. :rofl:

fletch
26th-March-2007, 05:08 PM
Don't do this all the time though, as sometimes I like to scare them enough to not ask me for a dance again :devil: (kidding BTW before all the neg rep comes flooding in)

You might be joking, :rolleyes: but just remember today's beginner is next years expert, :na: and people don't forget:flower:


It's a few minutes of your life - if you can't be patient with a beginner/less good dancer for 5 minutes or less, then stick to hot shot territory and only ask those who have been dancing for years to dance. And say no to anyone who asks you, just to be safe :rolleyes:

Nice post Twirly :respect:


Have you never been asked to dance by a man who turned out to be an awful dancer? Couldn't keep time? Held you in a tight grip? Pulled you about? Lead you in to unleadable moves?

Yes! and just remember there is a person behind that dance, with real feelings,it wont be there intention to give a bad dance:mad: and if given the chance they might turn out, one day to be a good if not good, reasonable dancer, that will remember you, and could even become a friend :flower:

Its very lonley at the top..................so i'm told :(

LMC
26th-March-2007, 05:08 PM
Assume that they are a beginner/donít have that much confidence/just donít feel like it and amend your dance accordingly.
Twirly is too nice to say it, but I ain't: another reason is perhaps they don't like you and don't feel like "expressing themselves" with you. NB not personal to woodface, never danced with him - but have turned him down :devil: (knee injury was making me stick to leads-I've-danced-with-before that evening)


Also, if I give my partner room to play and they give me that "***?" look, I take the lead back and don't give them space again, they're clearly not ready/happy with it. Hopefully they'll see me do the same with someone else and see what they do with the space. Again, not dumbing down, just different.
Is the correct answer. Have a cookie :D

Cruella
26th-March-2007, 05:09 PM
Oooh, waiting for all the righteous forumites to post how they love dancing with everyone and that all dances have an element of pleasure in them. (Lying bu99ers) :whistle: Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere. :rolleyes:

Twirly
26th-March-2007, 05:10 PM
Have you never been asked to dance by a man who turned out to be an awful dancer? Couldn't keep time? Held you in a tight grip? Pulled you about? Lead you in to unleadable moves?

Of course. And Iíve been lead by men who think they are great dancers, but whom I canít stand dancing with because itís all about them, not a partnership. :na:


Would you ask them to dance again though? :devil: Be honest

I probably wouldnít ask them very often. But if they asked me, so long as they hadnít actually injured me previously, Iíd accept. We all have to start somewhere. And itís only by dancing with newbies that we are going to keep new blood flowing in.

Besides which, itís great to see someone develop and improve (just as it feels great to develop and improve).

LMC
26th-March-2007, 05:11 PM
Oooh, waiting for all the righteous forumites to post how they love dancing with everyone and that all dances have an element of pleasure in them.
But they DO. Some of them feel so good when they stop.

Trouble
26th-March-2007, 05:12 PM
Oooh, waiting for all the righteous forumites to post how they love dancing with everyone and that all dances have an element of pleasure in them. (Lying bu99ers) :whistle: Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere. :rolleyes:

i am virtuous, i am honest... :yum: can i have a gold star :yeah: :innocent:

Twirly
26th-March-2007, 05:19 PM
Oooh, waiting for all the righteous forumites to post how they love dancing with everyone and that all dances have an element of pleasure in them. (Lying bu99ers) :whistle: Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere. :rolleyes:

I don't think that anyone has said they love dancing with everyone, but a lot of people will dance with anyone. And boy am I thankful, otherwise my dancing would never have improved (at least, I'm assuming that it has... :confused: :blush: ) :wink: And even when I get a dance like that's less than great (OK, awful), I'll still make the best of it (but then that does kind of sum up my attitude to life :na: )


But they DO. Some of them feel so good when they stop.

Not only that, but the next decent lead you dance with seems heaven sent! :awe:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 05:24 PM
See everyone agrees with mainly the same thing.

I have never turned anyone down just because they are / might be a bad dancer. I will dance with everyone M or F. I don't enjoy every dance I have. Some dances seem to be the worst 3 mins of my life. Im sure im like that for other people too. Some dancers are just incompatible.

Personally I grit my teeth and get on with it. As long as the other person is having fun and is oblivious to the fact that they don't quite have it yet, then whats the harm in what you do be it dancing for yourself, dumming it down or anything in between.

The other thing is I would never give anyone advice without them seeking it first.

straycat
26th-March-2007, 05:29 PM
Oooh, waiting for all the righteous forumites to post how they love dancing with everyone and that all dances have an element of pleasure in them. (Lying bu99ers) :whistle:

OK :waycool:
Can't say I love dancing with everyone, but...
All dances have at least an element of pleasure in them



Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere.

Not that I can think of, no.

LMC
26th-March-2007, 05:31 PM
Not that I can think of, no.
Wot, not even three feet to the left dancing with *that* partner rather than the one you've got?

StokeBloke
26th-March-2007, 05:33 PM
OK :waycool:
Can't say I love dancing with everyone, but...
All dances have at least an element of pleasure in them

Not that I can think of, no.
:yeah: Sorry Cruella.... maybe we're not all as awful as you thought :flower:

straycat
26th-March-2007, 05:33 PM
Wot, not even three feet to the left dancing with *that* partner rather than the one you've got?

Sorry - didn't see her there - I was focussing on the lady I was dancing with

Cruella
26th-March-2007, 05:34 PM
OK :waycool:
Can't say I love dancing with everyone, but...
All dances have at least an element of pleasure in them



Not that I can think of, no.

Shall I scratch your nose for you, I can reach it from here now!

Twirly
26th-March-2007, 05:35 PM
The other thing is I would never give anyone advice without them seeking it first.

I didn't notice anyone suggesting you should... :confused:

So why exactly did you start this thread then?

Trousers
26th-March-2007, 05:38 PM
This all smacks of the infamous and alleged Game played on the dance floor, at Breeze I think it was, by Ceroc people who should have allegedly known better.

Woodface obviously walked into his first dance night with no idea what it was about but ended up teaching with no learning curve. Not bad for 45 minutes.
If that were true maybe you could have that attitude.


Actually It's just occurred to me; has there been a forum upgrade or hiccup?
I'd had Woodface on ignore for the last 3 months at least so I shouldn't have seen this vain and conceitful thread.

Wish I'd bloody noticed
Well you're back in the box WF with ya crap attitude

Cruella
26th-March-2007, 05:40 PM
:yeah: Sorry Cruella.... maybe we're not all as awful as you thought :flower:

Not awful, just human. I'll reserve judgement til i've made you dance with me. :D

Cruella
26th-March-2007, 05:48 PM
So why exactly did you start this thread then?
Controversy?

Well you're back in the box WF with ya crap attitude

I admit that Woodface is hardly the best at 'wording' what he wants to say but i'm not sure that he's as conceited as you think, just a bit 'blonde'. :whistle:
(Did I offend both WF and Trousers with one line do you think?) :devil:

David Bailey
26th-March-2007, 05:54 PM
Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere. :rolleyes:
Absolutely - usually several in one night.

But, so what?

Frankly, I get at least as many "don't want to be here" moments - probably more - with, say, early intermediates, than with beginners. So it's got nothing to do with experience, and everything to do with attitude.

Oh, and fitness :wink: :innocent:

Twirly
26th-March-2007, 05:55 PM
Actually It's just occurred to me; has there been a forum upgrade or hiccup?

I did get some message when I logged on this morning - DST something or other updating.


(Did I offend both WF and Trousers with one line do you think?) :devil:

Two for the price of one? :devil:

Jhutch
26th-March-2007, 05:56 PM
Oh, and fitness :wink: :innocent:

Yes, its so annoying when someone can't keep up when a fast track is playing:)

David Bailey
26th-March-2007, 05:57 PM
This all smacks of the infamous and alleged Game played on the dance floor, at Breeze I think it was, by Ceroc people who should have allegedly known better.
I'm fairly sure that person has learnt a lesson from the furore over that - although the lesson may be just "be discreet about it" :sad:


Actually It's just occurred to me; has there been a forum upgrade or hiccup?
I'd had Woodface on ignore for the last 3 months at least so I shouldn't have seen this vain and conceitful thread.
Ignore lists don't stop "new threads" or even "new posts" showiing up, unfortunately.

David Bailey
26th-March-2007, 05:58 PM
Yes, its so annoying when someone can't keep up when a fast track is playing:)
well, it's the zimmer frame, you know how it is... :tears:

ducasi
26th-March-2007, 05:58 PM
So why exactly did you start this thread then?
Check the last few posts of this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/11952-has-anyone-here-ever-thought-becoming-ceroc-teacher-post356609.html#post356609)...

Based on my reading, it looks like Woodface believes that showing off is an important part of non-blues dancing, but in blues you need to show off your follower more.

I take from this that he wants ideas on how he can show off less when his follower can't keep up.

Correct me if I'm wrong. :)

Cruella
26th-March-2007, 06:05 PM
Absolutely - usually several in one night.

But, so what?

Frankly, I get at least as many "don't want to be here" moments - probably more - with, say, early intermediates, than with beginners. So it's got nothing to do with experience, and everything to do with attitude.

Oh, and fitness :wink: :innocent:

Where did Woodface say that it was a beginner? Just because it was 'in his opinion' a terrible dance, it doesn't mean he meant it wasn't someone that had been dancing for a long time. Some 'beginners' are a damn site better dancers than some of the long term dancers. Jamie and Foxyfunkster have only been dancing a year, I consider them still 'beginners' if measuring by time scale. They are both a lot better than some guys I know that have been dancing for years longer.

(I feel a thread split looming. What constitutes a beginner?)

Petal
26th-March-2007, 06:13 PM
Ok,


What if you get landed with a really bad follow whome not even a gold leafed frame with neon lights and a carnival parade could show off.


:

What if the follows been "landed" with a really bad/weak lead!!!

fletch
26th-March-2007, 06:17 PM
Oooh, waiting for all the righteous forumites to post how they love dancing with everyone and that all dances have an element of pleasure in them. (Lying bu99ers) :whistle: Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere. :rolleyes:


which righteous forumites have said they enjoyed every dance?:confused: sometimes you have to give and then you might receive,(ooo looks like i'm the righteous one :wink: ) for every bad dance, with a newbie to you get, hopefully you will get a good dance, :clap: which is a pleasant experience, and then that person goes into you bank of peopele you like to dance with, I have found it doesn't matter to me then, if one of the people I do dance with doesn't want to dance with me,:rolleyes: it wouldn't make any difference to my evening,:flower:

i am virtuous, i am honest... :yum: can i have a gold star :yeah: :innocent:

you are a little star :whistle:


I don't think that anyone has said they love dancing with everyone, but a lot of people will dance with anyone. And boy am I thankful, otherwise my dancing would never have improved (at least, I'm assuming that it has... :confused: :blush: ) :wink: And even when I get a dance like that's less than great (OK, awful), I'll still make the best of it (but then that does kind of sum up my attitude to life :na: )



Not only that, but the next decent lead you dance with seems heaven sent! :awe:

:yeah:



The other thing is I would never give anyone advice without them seeking it first.


well that one good thing I suppose :what:


:yeah: Sorry Cruella.... maybe we're not all as awful as you thought :flower:


didn't know you two had dance :confused:





Well you're back in the box WF with ya crap attitude

and don't they all come out of the woodwork :(

Cruella
26th-March-2007, 06:17 PM
What if the follows been "landed" with a really bad/weak lead!!!
Then you grin and bare it. After all it's only 3 minutes apparently.:whistle: To be honest a weak lead isn't as much of a problem, it's the strong 'rip your arm out of it's socket' lead thats hard to bare. :sick:

Cruella
26th-March-2007, 06:20 PM
which righteous forumites have said they enjoyed every dance?:confused:
I said, i'm waiting.:wink:



didn't know you two had dance :confused:

Have we? When? :blush:

Petal
26th-March-2007, 06:27 PM
Then you grin and bare it. After all it's only 3 minutes apparently.:whistle: To be honest a weak lead isn't as much of a problem, it's the strong 'rip your arm out of it's socket' lead thats hard to bare. :sick:

Doesn't bother me if i dance with a weak lead, but i will avoid the "rip.....socket" type if i spot them in advance. I just have a bad habit of back leading with a weak lead:whistle:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 06:32 PM
I didn't notice anyone suggesting you should... :confused:

So why exactly did you start this thread then?

For the discussion. :wink:


What if the follows been "landed" with a really bad/weak lead!!!

Same principal


Check the last few posts of this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/11952-has-anyone-here-ever-thought-becoming-ceroc-teacher-post356609.html#post356609)...

Based on my reading, it looks like Woodface believes that showing off is an important part of non-blues dancing, but in blues you need to show off your follower more.

I take from this that he wants ideas on how he can show off less when his follower can't keep up.

Correct me if I'm wrong. :)

It can be an important part of non blues dancing. Wouldn't call it showing off, but doing some great moves etc can make or break a dance. Modern Jive is not all about blues. the world does not revolve around a hot sweaty room. More to life.



This all smacks of the infamous and alleged Game played on the dance floor, at Breeze I think it was, by Ceroc people who should have allegedly known better.

Not 100% sure what went on here but nothing to do with me if thats what your implying. It has nothing to do with that. Everyone was a beginner once, even, believe it or not me. :yum::devil:




Woodface obviously walked into his first dance night with no idea what it was about but ended up teaching with no learning curve. Not bad for 45 minutes.
If that were true maybe you could have that attitude.

I had a steep learning cureve. Me going in to teaching was done by request by a teacher for cover and I ended up doing it on a more reg basis. So guess it is true. Guess I can have the non-existant attitude that you are seeing.




Actually It's just occurred to me; has there been a forum upgrade or hiccup?
I'd had Woodface on ignore for the last 3 months at least so I shouldn't have seen this vain and conceitful thread.

Wish I'd bloody noticed
Well you're back in the box WF with ya crap attitude

Ah, saving my posts for people that are interested in the discussion. Nothing wrong with putting across a point, even if it's not my own, but hey, if your not grown up enough to participate in a discussion,I don't mind getting in your box. :na: (someone pass that on) :rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 07:02 PM
Just been thinking about this in the shower and, after thinking long and hard, im not actually sure what I do when dancing with a dancer that is of a *cough* 'lower ability' than me, so im going to go out and dance in Hastings tonight to find out. Will let you know how I get on.

Will try the various things that have arisen on this thread and see whats the most effective, though im sure it vary's partner to partner.

Something I have noticed I do though, is let the lady show off alot more of female vocal tracks than I do male vocal traks. Seems the natural thing to do. :nice:

StokeBloke
26th-March-2007, 07:13 PM
I said, i'm waiting.:wink:




Have we? When? :blush:
We haven't yet, but I can't wait :D

Double Trouble
26th-March-2007, 07:44 PM
Well you're back in the box WF with ya crap attitude

Bloody hell Trousers...! Take a chill pill for goodness sake's.

You don't know Woodface. If you did you wouldn't have such a negative, and if I may say so, ignorant view.

Woodface might not word things in the best way, but he is just being honest about how he feels. That is to his credit and he should be able to say what he feels without being abused by you.:mad:

straycat
26th-March-2007, 07:52 PM
Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere.

Been thinking about this. The thing is - I've had dances before where my partner adopted the attitude you're talking about, seemingly before the dance has even started. Yes, I can (before you say it) salvage some fun bits even from a dance like that, but it's still not a nice feeling. I do try (and I hope I succeed) not to adopt said attitude myself - it's no fun for anyone.

Ouch. That was almost serious. LOOK!!! A BIG ORANGE PINEAPPLE! IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR US!!!!

Paulthetrainer
26th-March-2007, 09:48 PM
For what it's worth I don't think that Woodface was expressing any kind of opinion of his own in starting this thread, but merely seeking the thoughts of others on what is an interesting and relevant enough subject for the forum.

I think that one or two folk are mistaken if they think that he did. Agreed, he doesn't always use the subtlest ways of canvassing opinions, but then he does post about a gazillion times a day, so I for one am happy to excuse him.:flower:

Paul

Andy McGregor
26th-March-2007, 11:20 PM
I had a dance with woodface on Saturday night - so I know exactly what he's talking about :whistle:

LittleSal
27th-March-2007, 02:45 AM
Oooh, waiting for all the righteous forumites to post how they love dancing with everyone and that all dances have an element of pleasure in them. (Lying bu99ers) :whistle: Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere. :rolleyes:

I have to be honest and say that I agree there are dances that you wished you were somewhere else during them but it goes with the territory if you dance with everyone who asks you or who you've asked to dance, it's hard to be gracious sometimes but it does have rewards.
Think of the times when you've danced with a stranger and had one of the best dances and that makes up for the bad one before and you learn from it . That's dancing, it's the rough with the smooth and you've just got to grin and bear it after all nothing is perfect in this world.:flower:

Lee Bartholomew
27th-March-2007, 07:57 AM
I had a dance with woodface on Saturday night - so I know exactly what he's talking about :whistle:

I used the time to scout for the next few dance partners :na:

fletch
27th-March-2007, 08:27 AM
We haven't yet, but I can't wait :D


bad luck then:wink: you have about another 3 years till you will be up to scratch :na:

I had a dance with woodface on Saturday night - so I know exactly what he's talking about :whistle:

:rofl:


it's hard to be gracious sometimes but it does have rewards.
Think of the times when you've danced with a stranger and had one of the best dances and that makes up for the bad one before and you learn from it . That's dancing, it's the rough with the smooth and you've just got to grin and bear it after all nothing is perfect in this world.:flower:

No honey the above statement is only true for some of us,:hug: the ones that are willing to take a chance with a stranger, my life is richer for it,:yeah: and to be honest I couldn't give a flying **** about he others who don't that's there choice and that's what life's about choices, I respect there difference :hug:

I spent some time at the weekend in the lindy room, i'm not very good at it, but I think because people could see I really wanted to try and get it right, they persevered with me, :clap: they all had crap dances cos I was crap, :tears: but by the time I asked Gary the lindy 'champ' to dance I wasn't quite as bad, :what: so thanks to the guy's that suffered with me all weekend.:worthy:

David Bailey
27th-March-2007, 08:55 AM
bad luck then:wink: you have about another 3 years till you will be up to scratch :na:
So when do you want to be Tango-ed again? :na:

fletch
27th-March-2007, 08:58 AM
So when do you want to be Tango-ed again? :na:

by you ? or some one else :wink:

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2007, 09:22 AM
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares

Woodface's original question was this;

Should you lower your dancing ability to match theirs, dance for yourself or keep as was to help them to raise theirs?My own opinion on this is that a good lead can help raise the game of a poor follow and that you should regard this as the challenge over the next few minutes. It is much more challenging to help a poor lead when you are following and it can be frustrating - but you can often help them stay on the beat and you can help by back-leading at bit too :whistle:

And, "should you lower your dancing ability?" - No! You need to raise your game to get the best from this particular challenge. It takes much more concentration to dance with somebody where you keep having to adjust to their mistakes/bad habits/etc and even greater skill to actually get them to do something well and to look/feel good.

And, remember, off the dance floor these challenging dancers could be angels - or, if you are really fortunate, little devils :devil:




Maybe it's all a test :confused:

David Bailey
27th-March-2007, 09:29 AM
by you ? or some one else :wink:
I hear Mr Cool has been converted to the Dark Side now. :clap:

You're next... Join us... :spooky cult icon:

fletch
27th-March-2007, 09:37 AM
I hear Mr Cool has been converted to the Dark Side now. :clap:

You're next... Join us... :spooky cult icon:

its not 'Tango' I don't like its the seriousness off it all,:sick: it looks fantastic to watch,:worthy: but I feel it needs a lot of commitment to get it right, :respect: and its one of the styles that really need you to do lessons, :( or you won't get the footwork right:what:

fletch
27th-March-2007, 10:05 AM
And, remember, off the dance floor these challenging dancers could be angels - or, if you are really fortunate, little devils :devil:


Maybe it's all a test :confused:



They might be little angel or devils of the dance floor, but some people, who maybe have husbands/wives, children, etc., don't need or want anything more than just a dance, so for them the most important thing and objective of there evening in having the 'best dances' possible, so for these people there not bothered what people are like off the dance floor.

We are all looking for something out of dancing, for some its just to fill 'Thursday' while hubby/wife is out to bingo, snooker, for some they are looking for a life partner, others want's to do something special with there dancing? I haven't go an issue with what ever people are looking for in dance, I like people and enjoy the friendships I make, that's why I make the efforts I do.

I have had comments to me before along the lines of.......how come you know everyone, and people always ask you to dance........well guess what.......I have had to put the effort in first, I've got off my ar$e and asked, walked around the room and asked, got in my car drove to a new venue, and asked, it isn't rocket science, if you give then hopefully you will receive, but only if that what you want, the choice is yours, if your not getting out of dance what you want then look at how your doing it.

I stand and chat to people, cos that what I want to do, each to there own,:respect: just don't moan when your not getting what you wan't, do it differently :mad:

IMO if you approach the better dancers standing by the DJ in a crowd then your 'brave' and worthy of a dance, if your get refused I would imagine strong enough to weather the refusal, what you want in life doesn't just land in your lap, if you want it you have to go for it, without fear.


soap box over.........off to do the ironing :flower:

Lee Bartholomew
27th-March-2007, 10:17 AM
I haven't actually posted my opinion yet. The thread started by asking others opinions without putting across my own, dispite how a very decide to read it !!!! But here goes....


I have been everything from a beginner through to a teacher and hopefully I will go on to do more ie comps, teacher at weekenders, get my dancing recognised over my forum baiting skills....

Last night I danced with beginners / less abled people than me (no choice otherwise, danced in Hastings) and went with my teacher head on, rather than my student, want to progress head. I actually enjoyed it more than I have done for alittle while dispite the standard not being up to much.

I couldn't have done that bad as I had a queue of ladies (and 1 man) waiting to dance with me. I done some more advanced stuff but took time and lead it without the expectations you would have of an intermediate dancer to be able to follow. You know what, had people after thanking me and asking where I dance, can I take them to London/Brighton/Kent etc.

To be honest great for ego and for the people I danced with but not so great in that I didn't really develop on the more advanced aspects of my dancing, but then I need the more advanced dancers to help me with that, just as the less advanced than me need me to help them.

At the end of the day, I guess in answering my orgional question, In order to keep your sanity, you have to do abit of everything not just for your dance partner, but for yourself too or you would never get anywhere.

Christmas is a great example. It's apparently all about giving but don't you just hate it when you don't get any gifts in return.

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2007, 10:44 AM
I haven't actually posted my opinion yet. The thread started by asking others opinions without putting across my own, dispite how a very decide to read it !!!! But here goes....


I have been everything from a beginner through to a teacher and hopefully I will go on to do more ie comps, teacher at weekenders, get my dancing recognised over my forum baiting skills....

Last night I danced with beginners / less abled people than me (no choice otherwise, danced in Hastings) and went with my teacher head on, rather than my student, want to progress head. I actually enjoyed it more than I have done for alittle while dispite the standard not being up to much.

I couldn't have done that bad as I had a queue of ladies (and 1 man) waiting to dance with me. I done some more advanced stuff but took time and lead it without the expectations you would have of an intermediate dancer to be able to follow. You know what, had people after thanking me and asking where I dance, can I take them to London/Brighton/Kent etc.

To be honest great for ego and for the people I danced with but not so great in that I didn't really develop on the more advanced aspects of my dancing, but then I need the more advanced dancers to help me with that, just as the less advanced than me need me to help them.

At the end of the day, I guess in answering my orgional question, In order to keep your sanity, you have to do abit of everything not just for your dance partner, but for yourself too or you would never get anywhere.

Christmas is a great example. It's apparently all about giving but don't you just hate it when you don't get any gifts in return.
If you can ignore the spelling this is actually an OK post. Of have I lowered my expectation because it's woodface?:innocent:

Double Trouble
27th-March-2007, 10:45 AM
If you can ignore the spelling this is actually an OK post.

Blimey Andy...steady on.

We will have to have you stuffed and mounted at this rate, if you carry on being nice to Woodface.:rolleyes:

Lee Bartholomew
27th-March-2007, 10:56 AM
If you can ignore the spelling this is actually an OK post. Of have I lowered my expectation because it's woodface?:innocent:

If you can ignore the wrong use of words ....... :rofl: All my posts are ok (speeling aside), it's how you decide to read them :devil:


Blimey Andy...steady on.

We will have to have you stuffed and mounted at this rate, if you carry on being nice to Woodface.:rolleyes:

Queue's are forming

Gav
27th-March-2007, 11:00 AM
If you can ignore the spelling this is actually an OK post. Of have I lowered my expectation because it's woodface?:innocent:

Or even lowered your standard of English to match?


Blimey Andy...steady on.

We will have to have you stuffed and mounted at this rate, if you carry on being nice to Woodface.:rolleyes:

Maybe that's why he's being nice to woodface? :wink:

fletch
27th-March-2007, 11:35 AM
Christmas is a great example. It's apparently all about giving but don't you just hate it when you don't get any gifts in return.

Ok i'm going to make some people puke, but bovvvverd :rolleyes:

halfway throught the ironing just poped in to see whats happening and have a cake:drool:


gifts can come in all sorts of packages, not just wraped in a bow :flower:

there are a few things I love,

1. been on a guest/VIP list.

2. Not having to carry all my bags into a venue so I can float in in my frock and not look like a bag lady.

and guess what .............if I think I have earnt it I ask, if its apropriate :hug:

but best off all is when you don't have to ask, those are the best gifts :clap:





If you can ignore the spelling this is actually an OK post. Of have I lowered my expectation because it's woodface?:innocent:

spellings :confused: is there some mistakes :eek: tut, tut :grin:

Trouble
27th-March-2007, 11:38 AM
2. Not having to carry all my bags into a venue so I can float in in my frock and not look like a bag lady.


:

you never look like a bag lady Fletch..... always glam and good to go. !! :hug: (thats for your little comment yesterday about me being a star) xxxxxxxxx

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2007, 11:39 AM
Or even lowered your standard of English to match?Sorry, that's my standard of typing - I couldn't raise my finger from the 'f' to the 'r' - maybe I couldn't be 'r'sed :devil:

And I didn't think I was being nice to woodface :confused: But please continue to believe I was being nice as I'm quite looking forward to Double Trouble stuffing and mounting me* :flower:


*Although her sister usually does it in the other order :eek:

Trouble
27th-March-2007, 11:41 AM
Sorry, that's my standard of typing - I couldn't raise my finger from the 'f' to the 'r' - maybe I couldn't be 'r'sed :devil:

And I didn't think I was being nice to woodface :confused: But please continue to believe I was being nice as I'm quite looking forward to Double Trouble stuffing and mounting me* :flower:


*Although her sister usually does it in the other order :eek:

i have not touched you yet Andy but it can be arranged. :rolleyes:

Double Trouble
27th-March-2007, 11:42 AM
I'm quite looking forward to Double Trouble stuffing and mounting me* :flower:

:what:


*Although her sister usually does it in the other order :eek:

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2007, 11:43 AM
i have not touched you yet Andy but it can be arranged. :rolleyes:I didn't say it was me that Trouble stuffed and mounted - but I'm always willing to try something new :wink:





... we outside yet? :whistle:

Trouble
27th-March-2007, 11:45 AM
I didn't say it was me that Trouble stuffed and mounted - but I'm always willing to try something new :wink:

... we outside yet? :whistle:

lol woooooooosh if we wern't we soon will be.

so, your up for getting stuffed and mounted Andy.!! New, this is new for you...mmmmmm :rolleyes:

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2007, 11:49 AM
:what:


lol woooooooosh if we wern't we soon will be.

so, your up for getting stuffed and mounted Andy.!! New, this is new for you...mmmmmm :rolleyes:Not with a woman, will you teach me? :innocent:

Please be gentle misstresss :eek:




.. we must be upstairs by now :innocent:

Trouble
27th-March-2007, 11:52 AM
Not with a woman, will you teach me? :innocent:

Please be gentle misstresss :eek:

. we must be upstairs by now :innocent:

lol - good grief. Will you dress up as a woman first ? I hear your partial to that....... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Lee Bartholomew
27th-March-2007, 11:58 AM
lol - good grief. Will you dress up as a woman first ? I hear your partial to that....... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Can never find the pics when I need them. :sad:

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2007, 03:21 PM
lol - good grief. Will you dress up as a woman first ? I hear your partial to that....... :rolleyes: :rolleyes::yawn: They always ask that - but so long as they're willing to pay extra I'm always pleased to oblige :waycool:

Trouble
27th-March-2007, 03:23 PM
:yawn: They always ask that - but so long as they're willing to pay extra I'm always pleased to oblige :waycool:

well its just that you look so good.. I hear......

so, southport or camba, whichever you are at first, you turn up dressed as a woman, i will show you how i stuff and mount. :D

Andy McGregor
27th-March-2007, 04:01 PM
so, southport or camba, whichever you are at first, you turn up dressed as a woman, i will show you how i stuff and mount. :DI thought Trouble was the one who mounted and stuffed :confused:

I've never been into taxidermy myself. I like to use formaldehyde and jars :sick:

Trouble
27th-March-2007, 04:03 PM
I thought Trouble was the one who mounted and stuffed :confused:

I've never been into taxidermy myself. I like to use formaldehyde and jars :sick:

trouble is a multitasker, you choose i'll show ya. :na: :rolleyes:

fletch
27th-March-2007, 04:24 PM
you never look like a bag lady Fletch..... always glam and good to go. !! :hug: (thats for your little comment yesterday about me being a star) xxxxxxxxx

mmmm do you wan't to change your mind, this is me at breckfast this weekend, at the PJ party :rofl:

It took ages to find a matching hair net to go with the rollers :D

Trouble
27th-March-2007, 04:26 PM
LOL - that hairnet brings out the blue in your eyes.. xxx

MartinHarper
27th-March-2007, 06:58 PM
What if you get landed with a really bad follow whome not even a gold leafed frame with neon lights and a carnival parade could show off.

That kinda depends on the way that they're a really bad follow.

I find the bigger problem in that respect is when I get landed with a really good follow who is quite capable of showing herself off and requires no help from me. That's partly why I don't believe that "the lead's job is to show off the follow".


What if you end up with someone who, when you give them time and space to do their thing, looks at you like as if you were crazy.

I don't believe in standing still and gawping at my partner, so this problem doesn't arise for me.

Mezzosoprano
27th-March-2007, 08:45 PM
Well, IMO, if a follower can only cope with basic moves, then I dance those basic moves to the best of my ability and try to make it as pleasurable for them as I can.
Sticking to the moves/dancing that my partner can handle isn't "lowering my game". Just dancing differently. :na:
Also, if I give my partner room to play and they give me that "***?" look, I take the lead back and don't give them space again, they're clearly not ready/happy with it. Hopefully they'll see me do the same with someone else and see what they do with the space. Again, not dumbing down, just different.

Oh MY GOD - I agree with Gav (note to self: go back on the medication!):whistle:

Gav
27th-March-2007, 09:36 PM
Oh MY GOD - I agree with Gav (note to self: go back on the medication!):whistle:

Don't worry it won't happen very often :D :devil:

Gadget
28th-March-2007, 01:36 PM
The post Cruella has been waiting for:

I can honestly say that the only dances I have not enjoyed are one or two where my partner has been injured {not necessaraly by me}. It goes against everything I amin for in a dance and it shows me that if I were a better lead I would have been able to avoid/prevent the injury.

I have danced with the same "poor" dancers everyone else has, probably more: I have danced with people who bounce wildly, out of rhythm with an iron hand. I have danced with people who have a two second lag between hand and body movement. I have danced with people who throw themselves through moves and into dips. I have danced with stoney faced people who plod through the dance. I have danced with overly eager dancers who complete moves before you know you've started them... Each and every one I have enjoyed.

To me, a dance is about testing my skill - in connecting with the music, in connecting with my partner, in keeping it interesting, in giving my partner opportunity to express, in moving accross the dance floor, in hearing the same things and moving together,...

I get pleasure in seeking the connection as well as pleasure in finding it and using it.
:waycool:

bigdjiver
28th-March-2007, 02:49 PM
Oooh, waiting for all the righteous forumites to post how they love dancing with everyone and that all dances have an element of pleasure in them. (Lying bu99ers) :whistle: Why can't you all be honest and admit that there must have been at least one dance that you had where you wanted to be elsewhere. :rolleyes:I went to a freestyle where the music was really, to my ear, dire. I tried to dance to a very poor track and I just could not make it work. I could see my partner was n ot enjoying it either, and I simply told her that I could not make this work, could we finish it now, and she was relieved to consent.
Being a slow learner and not wanting to be beaten I went through the same scenario twice more with different tracks and partners. The evening was rescued when the second room opened.

killingtime
28th-March-2007, 06:46 PM
To do this means raising your game - not lowering it. If you can lead the un-leadable, imagine what happens when you have a champion to dance with :wink:

I don't agree with this. You don't see F1 drivers practising with Mac Trucks* figuring if they can get that around the track then they can improve their F1 driving. You can certainly learn some cross-over skills but at the same time I think leading the two require different skill sets.

Saying that I don't think you are lowering your game. You are just changing it.

* Note: I'm not comparing any women to a Mac Truck.

David Bailey
28th-March-2007, 07:35 PM
I don't agree with this. You don't see F1 drivers practising with Mac Trucks* figuring if they can get that around the track then they can improve their F1 driving. You can certainly learn some cross-over skills but at the same time I think leading the two require different skill sets.
Yeeesss.... dancing with beginners primarily teaches you how to dance with beginners.
And yes, if you only dance with beginners, you may find you get stuck in a rut - that's one reason why taxi dancers tend to stop.

But it's not as if there's a brick wall of difference between (say) late beginners and early intermediates - it's (hopefully) a continuous process.

Dancing with beginners does produce some overlap skills - obviously, clarity of lead, but also anticipation of problems - and it teaches you that a good lead should be able to give absolutely anyone a good dance.


Saying that I don't think you are lowering your game. You are just changing it.
Yes - almost by definition, it's easier to dance well with advanced dancers, you need more skill to make a beginner look good than an intermediate.

It's a bit like the "fingertip lead" thing - if you can lead with your fingertips, you can lead anything. If you can make a beginner look good, you can do anything with an advanced dancer.

And if you can make a beginner look good, whilst using a fingertip lead, then :worthy: :)


* Note: I'm not comparing any women to a Mac Truck.
Too late! :rofl:

Jhutch
29th-March-2007, 01:03 PM
What if you get landed with a really bad follow whom not even a gold leafed frame with neon lights and a carnival parade could show off.



:confused:

Then i would try to work out what we could do by slowing things down, maybe going completely off-beat and just trying to build some rhythm and connection up from there.

People were patient when i first started (and probably still are:blush:) so i don't see why i should be choosy.

If they weren't a beginner then i would still try to work something out.




What if you end up with someone who, when you give them time and space to do their thing, looks at you like as if you were crazy.


Um, stop allowing them to do their own thing and take back the lead?:confused:



Should you lower your dancing ability to match theirs, dance for yourself or keep as was to help them to raise theirs?



As someone above said, dancing 'ability' has different qualities. Choosing to increase one of those qualities above the others in a particular dance may mean that the dance is of lower quality but does not decrease your 'social dancer' ability IMO.

Am not sure what dancing for yourself entails if the follower is having problems following you:confused: Lots of poses?