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View Full Version : Has anyone on here ever thought of becoming a Ceroc teacher?



Terpsichorea
21st-March-2007, 11:19 AM
Apart from those of you who are already teachers, I hasten to add. I've looked into it, just out of curiosity, and the whole process seems a bit authoritarian. If I've understood it correctly, a trainee has to be recommended by a local Ceroc franchisee, who then agrees (I may be wrong here, correct me if I am) to pay for their training. So really, you're effectively indentured to that franchisee as a result of this. A bit like a Roman gladiator agreeing to be bound over by a lanista in return for training. But without the swordplay. Obviously.

I was wondering whether any other dance organisations (Arthur Murray etc) operate a similar system?

under par
21st-March-2007, 11:39 AM
Has anyone on here ever thought of becoming a Ceroc teacher?

No! Not a Ceroc teacher nor any type of teacher... not for me!

David Bailey
21st-March-2007, 12:17 PM
Apart from those of you who are already teachers, I hasten to add.
Shame you didn't do a poll - we could have "I'm a Ceroc teacher and have thought about becoming a Ceroc teacher" option :devil:


I've looked into it, just out of curiosity, and the whole process seems a bit authoritarian.
To be fair, any training regime has to be pretty authoritarian to have any, well, authority.


If I've understood it correctly, a trainee has to be recommended by a local Ceroc franchisee, who then agrees (I may be wrong here, correct me if I am) to pay for their training.
That's also how I understand it - I believe the cost to the franchisee is quite significant (several grand I think), so it's clearly a major investment for the franchisee, so they need to be convinced that you're a good business proposition.

"I want to be a teacher" isn't good enough. You've got to demonstrate that you can bring in the readies.

Having said that, if you're willing to splash out several grand, you could always approach Ceroc directly - I dunno what they'd say, but they may be amenable.


So really, you're effectively indentured to that franchisee as a result of this.
Pretty much, for a certain amount of time anyway. But most teachers are non-freelance anyway, they're associated with a franchisee - that's how the business works.


A bit like a Roman gladiator agreeing to be bound over by a lanista in return for training. But without the swordplay. Obviously.
*gags self*

Lee Bartholomew
21st-March-2007, 12:24 PM
Think the training is around the 2k mark and it is also a heavy investment in the franchisees time. I think the norm is a two year commitment

straycat
21st-March-2007, 12:25 PM
A bit like a Roman gladiator agreeing to be bound over by a lanista in return for training. But without the swordplay. Obviously.

*gags self*

David's come over all shy, so I think I should step in here.
He clearly wants to ask you out on a date :devil:
(although I will be advising him to save the gag for later :whistle:)

David Bailey
21st-March-2007, 12:39 PM
Think the training is around the 2k mark and it is also a heavy investment in the franchisees time. I think the norm is a two year commitment
That sounds about what I've heard.

Whatever one says about the focus of the training itself - and one can say a lot - the audition process is pretty rigorous, and lots of applicants get rejected first time round. Dancing ability is not enough, you need communications skills, the right attitude, and persistence.

I wonder what'd happen if you just turned up with £2K and said "train me"?


David's come over all shy, so I think I should step in here.
He clearly wants to ask you out on a date :devil:
(although I will be advising him to save the gag for later :whistle:)
Awww, thanks.... :love:

Terpsichorea
21st-March-2007, 12:51 PM
That sounds about what I've heard.

Whatever one says about the focus of the training itself - and one can say a lot - the audition process is pretty rigorous, and lots of applicants get rejected first time round. Dancing ability is not enough, you need communications skills, the right attitude, and persistence.

I wonder what'd happen if you just turned up with £2K and said "train me"?


Awww, thanks.... :love:

I wondered that as well - if you presented them with the cash, what would happen?

David Bailey
21st-March-2007, 01:33 PM
I wondered that as well - if you presented them with the cash, what would happen?
Call them up and ask? 0208 969 4401 :)

I guess you could be treated as a franchisee - the information on the web site (http://ceroc.com/ceroc_franchising.html) gives a guide price of £2,500 to cover all the franchisee + beginner teacher training.

Bear in mind that Ceroc is not a dance organisation, it's a commercial organisation which sells dance-related stuff. So training is only relevant for business purposes.

Frankly, it's probably a bit strange to want to be trained as a Ceroc teacher if you're not backed by a franchisee, as you won't learn much about dancing, it's mainly about teaching Ceroc. If you've got £2K to spend on dance training (!), you could get a dew days learning Ceroc teaching, or one private lesson a week with Amir for a year - I know which one I'd choose...

Lee Bartholomew
21st-March-2007, 01:34 PM
I wondered that as well - if you presented them with the cash, what would happen?


They would prob train you, but where would you teach? The franchisees are going to want teachers in place that they know will be there for a long time to help build up a venue.

If you decide to go freelance (which I guess if you pay for it yourself you could) how would you do this? Franchisees have their own teachers that they know well and would use them over a stranger. I think there are a few that travel cross franchises (Howard & nicola for ex) but I don't know what their situ is. If they regularly teach in one place or if they just travel about.

Also I wouldn't at all be suprised if in the tranning contract, you are not allowed to teach for another organisation such as Le roc.

Lee Bartholomew
21st-March-2007, 01:40 PM
you could get a dew days learning Ceroc teaching, or one private lesson a week with Amir for a year - I know which one I'd choose...

Am now imagining that "rasing money for dancing bears" advert but bears being replaced by DJ.

"Just donate £2 per month, just £2, and you could save DJ from learning ceroc moves. Help give DJ a new life where there is no circle and step back, no hand bouncing and no Orange. Please, please give your money to help support David James. Full details can be found on www.rasing-money-for-david-james-to-have-private-dance-lessons-with-amier-because-quite-frankly-he-needs-them.com.co.uk.net.fr (http://www.rasing-money-for-david-james-to-have-private-dance-lessons-with-amier-because-quite-frankly-he-needs-them.com.co.uk.net.fr)"

:na:

Gav
21st-March-2007, 01:53 PM
Am now imagining that "rasing money for dancing bears" advert but bears being replaced by DJ.


That's about the funniest thing you've posted so far! :cheers:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Lee Bartholomew
21st-March-2007, 01:55 PM
That's about the funniest thing you've posted so far! :cheers:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Amazin' what I can come up with whilst drunk.

Twirly
21st-March-2007, 02:03 PM
Apart from those of you who are already teachers, I hasten to add.

Why are you asking about the experience of becoming a Ceroc teacher to everyone apart from those who have been through the training?!! :confused: :rofl:

Is it that you want to become a Ceroc teacher or a modern jive teacher? Do you want to be associated with a franchise - or start one up yourself? From what has been said so far, it sounds as if you did decide to put yourself through the training with no backing from a franchise, that you'd just have to start yourself from scratch with a new franchise...

Out of curiousity, of those on here who already are Ceroc teachers, how did you get into it?

(That is intellectual curiousity - I can imagine few things worse than having to stand on a stage and teach anything :sick: )

TheTramp
21st-March-2007, 02:21 PM
Frankly, it's probably a bit strange to want to be trained as a Ceroc teacher if you're not backed by a franchisee, as you won't learn much about dancing, it's mainly about teaching Ceroc. If you've got £2K to spend on dance training (!), you could get a dew days learning Ceroc teaching, or one private lesson a week with Amir for a year - I know which one I'd choose...

Actually, I thought of another reason...

CTA members (those that have passed their teacher training) get free access to all Ceroc venues.

So, say that it does cost £2000, and a night at Ceroc costs £7, then you'd only need to go 286 times before you'd made your money back. After that, attending Ceroc venues would be effectively free :clap:

About a year or so! :whistle:

Lee Bartholomew
21st-March-2007, 07:22 PM
That include freestyles and weekenders?

Wouldbe
21st-March-2007, 08:24 PM
Gus started an interesting post on a related topic (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/10850-should-mj-teachers-trained.html), so I thought I'd do my bit and work out how this hyperlink stuff works!

Am I ready to join the ranks of "Geek" yet?!

Inkadincally, went for audition myself. Didn't get on unfortunately, but learned a lot that day. It was an enlightening, if scary experience!

bigdjiver
21st-March-2007, 09:35 PM
...I wonder what'd happen if you just turned up with £2K and said "train me"?... Ceroc is a franchise which exploits the Ceroc brand. That is its unique selling point (USP). I doubt it would want to train people to give the opposition the apparant advantage of that USP. The CTA is designed to train teachers for Ceroc.
The reality of the training is that there is a considerable "on the job" element, at least where Ceroc Central is concerned. It is not unusual to see two experienced teachers at nights where novice teachers are teaching. I do not know if that is policy, or just something that happened to happen at events I have been at. It does seem that a new teacher is a drain on teaching resources before they become an asset.

Gus
21st-March-2007, 09:48 PM
Gus started an interesting post on a related topic (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/10850-should-mj-teachers-trained.html), so I thought I'd do my bit and work out how this hyperlink stuff works!Forgotten about that thread ... but ... I've seen instructor who were trained by 'another' dance organisation and allowed to teach ... but I would'nt have thought any Ceroc franchisee, no matter how desperate, would have touched them. Proof if ever it was needed that CTA training is by far better than the rest ... that I've seen (don't shoot Andy :wink: ).

It does raise a point though. Unless CTA either drops its standards, or there is suddenly an outbreak of talented dancers, Ceroc expansion in some areas will grind to a halt due to a shortage of teachers. I know that Ceroc Nantwich is in trouble as their teacher is leaving and Ceroc Manchester barely has enough teaching staff to cover the two existing clubs. Must be others in a similar position.

spindr
21st-March-2007, 11:54 PM
It does raise a point though. Unless CTA either drops its standards, or there is suddenly an outbreak of talented dancers, Ceroc expansion in some areas will grind to a halt due to a shortage of teachers.
A cynic might suggest, that it just sounds like franchisees are too mean to train up "spare" teachers?

One might imagine that keeping a (central) list of wannabe teachers might help franchisees find candidates that they might have missed (perhaps deliberately).

SpinDr

bigdjiver
22nd-March-2007, 12:00 AM
A cynic might suggest, that it just sounds like franchisees are too mean to train up "spare" teachers?

One might imagine that keeping a (central) list of wannabe teachers might help franchisees find candidates that they might have missed (perhaps deliberately).

SpinDrPeople are reluctant to be trained as teachers if there is not going to be any work for them, so it is difficult to find people to be trained as "spares", especially if the trainee has to contribute money as well as time to the training.

Ghost
22nd-March-2007, 12:28 AM
Actually, I thought of another reason...

CTA members (those that have passed their teacher training) get free access to all Ceroc venues.

So, say that it does cost £2000, and a night at Ceroc costs £7, then you'd only need to go 286 times before you'd made your money back. After that, attending Ceroc venues would be effectively free :clap:

About a year or so! :whistle:

Ceroc Australia do an unlimited 6 month pass for $300 = £123

So £2,500 / 123 = 20 years!

Wonder what a lifetime membership would actually cost?

Terpsichorea
22nd-March-2007, 11:54 AM
Why are you asking about the experience of becoming a Ceroc teacher to everyone apart from those who have been through the training?!! :confused: :rofl:

Is it that you want to become a Ceroc teacher or a modern jive teacher? Do you want to be associated with a franchise - or start one up yourself? From what has been said so far, it sounds as if you did decide to put yourself through the training with no backing from a franchise, that you'd just have to start yourself from scratch with a new franchise...

Out of curiousity, of those on here who already are Ceroc teachers, how did you get into it?

(That is intellectual curiousity - I can imagine few things worse than having to stand on a stage and teach anything :sick: )

Oooh no, I have no intention of trying to become a Ceroc teacher! Too old, for one thing :tears:

onkar
22nd-March-2007, 12:32 PM
Apart from those of you who are already teachers, I hasten to add. I've looked into it, just out of curiosity, and the whole process seems a bit authoritarian. If I've understood it correctly, a trainee has to be recommended by a local Ceroc franchisee, who then agrees (I may be wrong here, correct me if I am) to pay for their training. So really, you're effectively indentured to that franchisee as a result of this. A bit like a Roman gladiator agreeing to be bound over by a lanista in return for training. But without the swordplay. Obviously.

I was wondering whether any other dance organisations (Arthur Murray etc) operate a similar system?

I asked about becoming a teacher about a year ago, and also spoke to some guys who were thinking about buying a Ceroc franchise in the Merseyside area.

My understanding is you have to be sponsored by an existing franchise, for Ceroc HQ to consider training you. Unless of course you want to buy a new franchise as well, but that could be expensive. Costs are approx £2000ish for the basic training, but I believe you are obligated to also do the intermediate and advanced classes as well, which racks the cost up to closer to £5000ish. So providing you get sponsored, it is understandable that a franchisee would want a commitment from you for a set period of time (approx 2yrs I think).

Wanting to teach is not enough, you need to be able to dance (it helps), as well as having the ability to teach. There may well be an age issue as well with some franchisee's, which is an old chestnut that as been raised before on the forum.

The alternative is to acquire the teacher training elsewhere, such as LeRoc, who have no restrictions, as they are a loose federation rather than a commercial organisation such as Ceroc. To qualify as a LeRoc instructor, you apply to the LeRoc Federation, and you can either learn yourself, or they can recommend teacher trainers, who will provide training. Costs for training plus exam around the £700ish mark. Then you can do whatever you like.

Onkar

bigdjiver
22nd-March-2007, 12:42 PM
...The alternative is to acquire the teacher training elsewhere, such as LeRoc, who have no restrictions, as they are a loose federation rather than a commercial organisation such as Ceroc. To qualify as a LeRoc instructor, you apply to the LeRoc Federation, and you can either learn yourself, or they can recommend teacher trainers, who will provide training. Costs for training plus exam around the £700ish mark. Then you can do whatever you like... I believe that "Leroc" has no intellectual property rights attached to it in a dance context, in which case anybody can teach "Leroc" without any talent, training or knowledge whatsoever.

TA Guy
22nd-March-2007, 12:54 PM
I believe that "Leroc" has no intellectual property rights attached to it in a dance context, in which case anybody can teach "Leroc" without any talent, training or knowledge whatsoever.

That's true. I taught under the Leroc banner and had no talent, training or knowledge whatsoever :) Well, a smidgeon maybe, but anybody can set up as a Leroc teacher, although I found I was pressured by the local'ish Leroc 'rep' (for want of a better word) to join the club and go on their training courses.

I also applied, years ago, to be a Ceroc teacher. At the time, my franchise was Ceroc South. I would have to attend an interview in a town 40 minutes away, which was fine, then hang around in town while they interviewed everybody else and come back for a dance appraisal, which seemed a bit of a hassle, but I was also fine with. If I passed those two, I had to attend the training course in London. It was 300 quids at the time and you had to pay it yourself, although, if you passed, the franchise may pay it. They wouldn't actually commit one way or the other. Then you had to come back and do a local training course.
Wayyyyy too much hassle for a low pay part time job.

bigdjiver
22nd-March-2007, 01:09 PM
...I also applied, years ago, to be a Ceroc teacher. At the time, my franchise was Ceroc South. I would have to attend an interview in a town 40 minutes away, which was fine, then hang around in town while they interviewed everybody else and come back for a dance appraisal, which seemed a bit of a hassle, but I was also fine with. If I passed those two, I had to attend the training course in London. It was 300 quids at the time and you had to pay it yourself, although, if you passed, the franchise may pay it. They wouldn't actually commit one way or the other. Then you had to come back and do a local training course.
Wayyyyy too much hassle for a low pay part time job.There is a dancer that comes to Bedford once in a while who is a "light up the room" personality and a superb lead or follow. IMO a natch for teacher.
1st test rejected for being "over the top". 2nd test, with the brakes on, "not enough personality". :confused: :mad: :tears:

Gadget
22nd-March-2007, 02:08 PM
It's the commitment in terms of "time away from work/family to train" that is the main wall that stops me from thinking about becoming one. For me, time is almost in as short supply as money :sick:

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-March-2007, 02:53 PM
I believe that "Leroc" has no intellectual property rights attached to it in a dance context, in which case anybody can teach "Leroc" without any talent, training or knowledge whatsoever.


Nope this is false, You have to compleate their traning to be part of the Leroc Federation. If you claim to teach leroc without doing their course, it would be like claiming to teach Ceroc off your own back.

Leroc in its self is an endorsment, not a style or group. It's a bit like having a kite mark. You can not put a kite mark on your products unless you have earnt it. How am I sure about all this? I looked in depth in to doing the course before I started teaching. I came to the conclusion that the ave punter through the door is not going to know what a Leroc fed logo is anyhow so didn't bother.

Teach or learn Modern Jive with the LeRoc French Jive Federation (http://www.leroc.org) has full info.

Anyone can teach modern jive as long as they are insured, which is where the leroc fed membership comes in handy. Cheaper insurance !!!!!.

Don't know how long ago you done this Leroc teaching TA, but nowdays they cert don't have 'reps' and would sue anyone who claimed to be leroc fed member who wasn't.

There must be some Leroc members out there who can explain the possition better than me.

killingtime
22nd-March-2007, 03:03 PM
Well I've pondered it a little in my "what if" scenarios. I been thinking about moving to Canada and, though Ceroc exists there (http://www.ceroc.ca/index.php) it seems likely that it won't exist in a city I move to. So I have pondered, if I moved there, would I try and investigate a franchise and becoming a teacher?

I'm not convinced myself but I need a dancing fix and if the only way I can do that is set up shop to teach others the same style that I want to dance then I'll do it.

Anyway I'm not sure, even if I moved, I'd be able to do it for many reasons (some about teaching and dancing skills and others about what a visa would allow in terms of secondary jobs).

David Bailey
22nd-March-2007, 03:35 PM
I believe that "Leroc" has no intellectual property rights attached to it in a dance context, in which case anybody can teach "Leroc" without any talent, training or knowledge whatsoever.
The name "leroc" is free to use by anyone.

Joining the LeRoc federation costs money, however.

Although apparently, before Lou steps in, they're not an organisation, they're a federation. Or something.


Nope this is false, You have to compleate their traning to be part of the Leroc Federation. If you claim to teach leroc without doing their course, it would be like claiming to teach Ceroc off your own back.
Ah, but you can teach LeRoc without being part of the Federation.


It's the commitment in terms of "time away from work/family to train" that is the main wall that stops me from thinking about becoming one.
It's mainly the "not wanting at all to do it" that stops me. :D

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-March-2007, 03:37 PM
The name "leroc" is free to use by anyone.


Where did you get that info?

It's copyrighted for a start.

David Bailey
22nd-March-2007, 03:43 PM
Where did you get that info?
From Lou, last time we discussed this.

She could have been lying however... :what:

Lou
22nd-March-2007, 04:04 PM
She could have been lying however... :what:

Who me? :whistle:

Nah - LeRoc isn't copyrighted. I'd be interested to know where the lovely Woodface got his info. :flower:


That's true. I taught under the Leroc banner and had no talent, training or knowledge whatsoever :)
Me too. :D

There are still LeRoc teachers who aren't members of the Federation. Sherif's one, for instance.
(btw... just to make it clear that Sherif has talent, training & knowledge! :) )


Leroc in its self is an endorsment, not a style or group. It's a bit like having a kite mark.
Would that were true... :hug:


There must be some Leroc members out there who can explain the possition better than me.
John Eastman's a forumite & most knowledgable on the subject. :flower:

Jamie
22nd-March-2007, 04:15 PM
Thought about it, was asked, said no. Mainly because I can get more teaching work up here in the North with other company's than Ceroc and get paid more! :devil: Fact is, I didn't know Ceroc existed till 6 months ago..

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-March-2007, 04:17 PM
Who me? :whistle:

Nah - LeRoc isn't copyrighted. I'd be interested to know where the lovely Woodface got his info. :flower:



Got it from the Leroc federation themselves when I was looking in to becoming a member.

Have just emailed Leroc Fed themselves saying:-

" Hi, Was wondering if you could clear up bit of a discussion point. Is the term Leroc copyrighted and if not, can anyone claim to teach leroc without being a member of the federation. Many Thanks. Lee"

Will let you know if / when get response.

Lou
22nd-March-2007, 04:35 PM
Will let you know if / when get response.
Cheers matey. :D

In the meantime, I've just been on the Fed's website where they say:


Remember, LeRoc is the generic name for this style of modern jive. This means that it is a name that is free to use and is not restricted by a trademark.

Dance clubs are free to use the name LeRoc, but they do not have to be members of the LeRoc French Jive Federation. Clubs which use the name but have not passed the examination of the Federation and the UKA are not linked to through this website.

Information (http://www.leroc.org.uk/information.htm)

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-March-2007, 05:16 PM
Looks like your right then.

THis is compleatly different from the info they gave me when I was looking in to it.

A sales tactic maybe?

David Bailey
22nd-March-2007, 05:28 PM
Looks like your right then.

THis is compleatly different from the info they gave me when I was looking in to it.

A sales tactic maybe?
Possibly - although also possibly a misunderstanding over the difference between "teaching Leroc" and "being a member of the Leroc Federation"...

Martin
22nd-March-2007, 05:52 PM
I asked, to be a franchisee...

They told me at the time, find a venue, set up the nights, then we might say yes and train you + take your money off you in a new area.
We then vet the venue and we will then tell you if you can go ahead.

By the time I found a venue and set up to go.... why bother... so I went ahead and called it something else (independant) after all, I do all the hard work and get... not a lot... and pay... lots....

BTW, I was not a CEROCER... but I did dance modern jive...

Questions I asked, how much promotion will you offer me in my geographical area, ans... none


ho hum, so I could call it "club jive" promote it locally and then not pay lots of cash to you then...?

um yes of course....:blush:

Lee Bartholomew
22nd-March-2007, 06:17 PM
Looks like Lou was right. Rep to her. :worthy: :D



Hi Lee

LeRoc is a name that is free to use. We have protected it from being protected by anyone else for their own sole use. It has legally been shown to be a recognised name for a dance form. We encourage people to get a professional quailification through the federation and to take part in our community of teachers.

Hope that helps

John Eastman
Chairman

Does this mean Ceroc can put that they teach Leroc on their promo material? lol

Martin
22nd-March-2007, 06:21 PM
Looks like Lou was right. Rep to her. :worthy: :D



Does this mean Ceroc can put that they teach Leroc on their promo material? lol

Who is John Eastman, does he teach in Bristol / Bath area?

David Bailey
22nd-March-2007, 08:01 PM
Does this mean Ceroc can put that they teach Leroc on their promo material? lol
Actually, I don't think Ceroc actually name what they teach...?

ElaineB
22nd-March-2007, 11:18 PM
Who is John Eastman, does he teach in Bristol / Bath area?

Yes, in Bristol. He is the President of the Le Roc Federation and his web site is Clifton LeRoc Modern Jive Classes at the Folk House in Bristol (http://www.cliftonleroc.co.uk)

Elaine

Gus
24th-March-2007, 10:07 AM
I asked about becoming a teacher about a year ago, and also spoke to some guys who were thinking about buying a Ceroc franchise in the Merseyside area.Good job they didn't go for it. Merseyside, like Stoke, seems to be an area that just fails to take off. A few have treid, all have failed. There is a small LeRoc club at the moment south of Liverpool but its future is far from certain.


.....but I believe you are obligated to also do the intermediate and advanced classes as well, which racks the cost up to closer to £5000ish. Unless things have changed radically, that cost sems very high. Think CTA have cut back on the number of training sessions, used to be something like 5 days beginner, two 2 days for Intermediate and 3 weeknders for the rest of the moves. Used to be about #2500 in total in 2001


..... There may well be an age issue as well with some franchisee's, which is an old chestnut that as been raised before on the forum.Thnigs they may be a-changing. Over the last year or so I've come across a number of teachers who seem to have been trained in their 40's


.....The alternative is to acquire the teacher training elsewhere, such as LeRoc, who have no restrictions, as they are a loose federation rather than a commercial organisation such as Ceroc. To qualify as a LeRoc instructor, you apply to the LeRoc Federation, and you can either learn yourself, or they can recommend teacher trainers, who will provide training. Costs for training plus exam around the £700ish mark. Then you can do whatever you like.And the problem with this is that there is no quality check. I've seen the output of this course locally .... to be brutally frank I've seen some Taxi dancers teach a lesson better. I KNOW this doen't apply to all LeRoc teahcers, but the CTA course still stands out head and shoulders above any of the other training courses (IMHO).

drathzel
24th-March-2007, 10:22 AM
Beginners course is 10 days long and if you add hotels/accomodation, food and travel for the 3 courses Onkar isnt a kick in the arse off being right

bigdjiver
24th-March-2007, 11:14 AM
Good job they didn't go for it. Merseyside, like Stoke, seems to be an area that just fails to take off. A few have treid, all have failed. There is a small LeRoc club at the moment south of Liverpool but its future is far from certain...The map of venues vs population density shows a curious relationship, but does seem to suggest that venues have a better chance in small towns and the suburbs, and it is possible that the best way to "invade" a large city centre is to establish venues around the periphery first. I suspect that this is due to the network marketing nature of MJ propogation

Gus
24th-March-2007, 11:34 AM
Whether you want to become a dance teacher can depend on a large extent on your motivations. Some come from the perspective of 'passing on their knowledge', some with the aim of making money through a franchise, some from an ego perspective, others its the 'ski instructor' possibilities (one instructor up here openly stated that if he wasn't a MJ instructor he'd never have got laid so often :sick: ). Its then a question of how much hassle /cost you're prepared to put up with .. oh and whether your basic dancing skills and stage presence are good enough.

I don't think many enter teaching with the aim to make money form the teaching itself. Most teachers I've met are professionals and the #50 - #60 per night fee doesn't begin to match your earnings from the day job. It can be very rewarding ... it can also be very demanding and sometimes depressing ... and it can test your confidence when things don't go right. It can also ruin your enjoyment of dancing .. especially if you get dragged into the politics and restrictions about what you can or cannot do or say.

As to who makes a good teacher, well its been debated often and at the end of the day only CTA know what they are looking for. This seesm to change over the years. The age thing seems to be less of a problem but having heard back about the auditions I am beginning to wonder what CTA is actualy after.

FoxyFunkster
24th-March-2007, 12:03 PM
Whether you want to become a dance teacher can depend on a large extent on your motivations. Some come from the perspective of 'passing on their knowledge', some with the aim of making money through a franchise, some from an ego perspective, others its the 'ski instructor' possibilities (one instructor up here openly stated that if he wasn't a MJ instructor he'd never have got laid so often :sick: ). Its then a question of how much hassle /cost you're prepared to put up with .. oh and whether your basic dancing skills and stage presence are good enough.

I don't think many enter teaching with the aim to make money form the teaching itself. Most teachers I've met are professionals and the #50 - #60 per night fee doesn't begin to match your earnings from the day job. It can be very rewarding ... it can also be very demanding and sometimes depressing ... and it can test your confidence when things don't go right. It can also ruin your enjoyment of dancing .. especially if you get dragged into the politics and restrictions about what you can or cannot do or say.

As to who makes a good teacher, well its been debated often and at the end of the day only CTA know what they are looking for. This seesm to change over the years. The age thing seems to be less of a problem but having heard back about the auditions I am beginning to wonder what CTA is actualy after.

well i`m hoping that they`ll find whatever it is that they are looking for in me because i have my teaching audition next week,!! i keep hearing that it`s the Xfactor that they are looking for.....i`ll let everyone know what it is they are looking for after next sunday......

Lost Leader
24th-March-2007, 01:27 PM
It does raise a point though. Unless CTA either drops its standards, or there is suddenly an outbreak of talented dancers, Ceroc expansion in some areas will grind to a halt due to a shortage of teachers. I know that Ceroc Nantwich is in trouble as their teacher is leaving and Ceroc Manchester barely has enough teaching staff to cover the two existing clubs. Must be others in a similar position.

Ceroc Central are currently training up at least two new teachers (Clarence from Northampton and the legendary Kelly from Daventry) but I do not know if they are needed to replace existing teachers who are leaving or for new venues they plan to open.

Andy McGregor
24th-March-2007, 02:20 PM
I must admit I'm way behind Ceroc on the teacher's training learning curve. So far I've run 4 teacher's training courses. However, one thing I've learnt (by my mistakes :tears: ) is to be far more selective about who I allow on the courses. Exceptional dancing talent has little to do with becoming a successful teacher at a weeknight class. In my, limited, experience it's mostly about personality, being able to hold an audiences attention, being entertaining, confident, etc, etc. Of course, if you want to be a top teacher you have to be both a talented dancer and all the other things. But a competent dancer who is good on stage is going to be a much better teacher than a great dancer who is dull and lifeless in the way he/she teaches. So, in future, I will be doing auditions/interviews before letting people come on our teacher's training courses.

But, and I think this is essential, you MUST get some training before getting on that stage and teaching beginners. There is a simple formula and you need to be told what it is. IMHO teaching intermediates is possible without formal training as you're just a dancer sharing moves with other dancers. BUT teaching beginners is completely different. I know teachers who have received no training: one of them regularly teaches at weekenders :confused: I remember that particular teacher, after he'd been teaching for a couple of years, asked me what I thought of his lesson. In among the gushing praise I mentioned that I'd noticed that he didn't always count in to the beginning of the musical bar. His answer was "bar?" :eek:

So, if you're thinking of becoming a teacher, you should seriously think about getting trained. And, when you're choosing who you get your training from I recommend you ask "which foot do you instruct the lady to step her weight onto on beat 1?" If the answer is anything but "right" you must ask yourself if your money is being well spent :devil:

Twirlie Bird
24th-March-2007, 06:06 PM
well i`m hoping that they`ll find whatever it is that they are looking for in me because i have my teaching audition next week,!! i keep hearing that it`s the Xfactor that they are looking for.....i`ll let everyone know what it is they are looking for after next sunday......

Good Luck FoxyFunkster. Fingers crossed for you. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

killingtime
26th-March-2007, 11:22 AM
Used to be about #2500 in total in 2001


#50 - #60

Gosh I can't believe they are paying in #. I didn't even realise that was legal :eek:.

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 11:43 AM
I have seen a few Leroc trained teachers and quite frankly they are awful.

Not saying that is down to the quality of the training, more to do with the quality needed to pass.

Crowd control, music choice, Lighting, crew, ability to engage crowd and quality of moves taught are just some of the things that go in to making a good teacher. It's about the environment that is set up (most indie teachers have 100% control over all of this)

I know of one teacher (leroc trainned) can't remember the lesson he is teaching (often starts teaching something compleatly random) owns 1 CD (seemingly) has caused a few injurys with his dancing and teaches what I would qualify as advanced beginners moves (i.e not quite intermediate) during his intermediate class. Still he has a little logo that says he has had training and is Leroc approved.

Go figure :what:

ducasi
26th-March-2007, 01:14 PM
I have seen a few Leroc trained teachers and quite frankly they are awful.
How did you rate their teaching against your own? Did you do any training?

What do you think of the standard of the average CTA-trained teacher against yourself?

David Bailey
26th-March-2007, 02:13 PM
I have seen a few Leroc trained teachers and quite frankly they are awful.
The Le Roc training clearly is far less stringent than CTA training - whatever else one might say about the content of the training, the course itself is clearly both intensive and rigourous, and provides a "minumum standard" guarantee.

Having been exposed to the sheer variety of quality of teaching in both salsa and, yes, even tango (:tears: ), I can say that having a minimum standard is very much appreciated.

Training Is Good, in other words.

Of course, you can get poor Ceroc teachers, and you can also argue that the training process itself may not encourage teacher development beyond a certain level.

In fact, there's an old thread about "Assessing teacher levels (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/intermediate-corner/5218-assessing-teachers-level.html)" which has some, ahem, interesting discussions about this sort of thing. :devil:

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 02:49 PM
How did you rate their teaching against your own? Did you do any training?

What do you think of the standard of the average CTA-trained teacher against yourself?


I wouldn't rate their teaching against my own, purely on the fact that I can't be in the crowd watching myself teach.

I have had poss feedback though but to be honest, I have seen circus monkeys that could teach MJ better than some of the teachers here. CIRCUS MONKEYS!!!!!!!!


Any teacher is better than the ones in / around hastings which is why I have been known to clock up 8,000 in two months just on dancing !!!!!

robd
26th-March-2007, 03:00 PM
IAny teacher is better than the ones in / around hastings which is why I have been known to clock up 8,000 in two months just on dancing !!!!!

8000 what? Consecutive, unassisted spins? :confused:

Gav
26th-March-2007, 03:02 PM
How did you rate their teaching against your own? Did you do any training?

What do you think of the standard of the average CTA-trained teacher against yourself?

Are you trying to establish how good a teacher woodface thinks he is, or what he's using for comparison?

IMO, whether someone is good at a thing or not shouldn't necessarily affect their ability to judge someone else's performance.
If I talk about whether someone is a good dancer or not, it's not relative to my dancing, it's relative to all the other dancing that I've seen (otherwise everyone would be dancing gods in my eyes :tears:).

robd
26th-March-2007, 03:12 PM
IMO, whether someone is good at a thing or not shouldn't necessarily affect their ability to judge someone else's performance.

True to an extent provided that they do not try to pass their opinion off as an authoritative one. What I mean by this is that when I first started to dance I thought everyone in freestlye was an amazing dancer. Time and experience now make me realise this is clearly not the case.

Woodface can have his opinions on the merits of teachers and can choose to attend or not attend their classes on the basis of those opinions but if he wishes to put forward his opinions as 'fact' then he really needs to have some understanding and experience of what that teacher is doing in order to know if he/she is doing it well or not.

Gav
26th-March-2007, 03:21 PM
Woodface can have his opinions on the merits of teachers and can choose to attend or not attend their classes on the basis of those opinions but if he wishes to put forward his opinions as 'fact' then he really needs to have some understanding and experience of what that teacher is doing in order to know if he/she is doing it well or not.


I have seen a few Leroc trained teachers and quite frankly they are awful.

Looks like a perfectly valid opinion based on experience and limited to those experiences rather than a broad claim.
FWIW, I've been to lessons by a Leroc teacher in the past and they were very good.

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 03:55 PM
Some people read in to posts too much :rolleyes:

Im sure you have opinions on good and bad teachers Rob, is my opinion and thoughts any less valid than yours because I post them? Anyway, Who says my opinion is not an authorative one? Just because I don't like to stick to the same old bluesy stuff, like something different and dont conform to the norm, doesn't make me a bad dancer. My dancing I have been told, is like marmite. Love it or hate it. Whats important is that I enjoy it, the people I dance with enjoy it, and I stand out from the crowd with it. Only a few people on this forum do that!!!!!!!

My opinion in that they are awful is based upon the quality of other teachers, no matter if they are leroc or CTA trained etc. The fact they can't remember the routines they are teaching or have 5 min gaps between songs being played or (in one teachers case) had 3 people retire from dancing due to injurys caused by said teacher make them IMO (and im sure many others) bad teachers.

One example I can think of is when a lady collapsed during freestyle (nothing to do with me BTW) the teacher saw what had happened and carried on dancing. Not just that dance but a few after that two. Didn't even care that someone was on the floor. !!!!!!!

Gav
26th-March-2007, 03:58 PM
My dancing I have been told, is like marmite. Love it or hate it.

Nah, that's 'cos its black and sticky :what: :confused: :sick: :sick:

robd
26th-March-2007, 04:10 PM
Some people read in to posts too much :rolleyes:

Im sure you have opinions on good and bad teachers Rob, is my opinion and thoughts any less valid than yours because I post them? Anyway, Who says my opinion is not an authorative one? Just because I don't like to stick to the same old bluesy stuff, like something different and dont conform to the norm, doesn't make me a bad dancer. My dancing I have been told, is like marmite. Love it or hate it. Whats important is that I enjoy it, the people I dance with enjoy it, and I stand out from the crowd with it. Only a few people on this forum do that!!!!!!!


I wasn't really having a dig at your opinion WF, I didn't have enough time to post and express myself as well as I would want. I was picking up more on Gav's point which I took as being you don't need experience in a field in order to assess somebody else performing in that field.

I don't think you're a bad dancer. I don't really have an opinion on your dancing. I do find it interesting that you talk about the 'same old bluesy stuff' though as the only comment I would make is that when I have seen you dance your attention has seemed to be more on yourself than on your partner. The 'blues' style dancing for me is all about the feel of it for your partner (and yourself) rather than how it looks which I'll be the first to admit can be pretty bland and/or ridiculous at times.

Lee Bartholomew
26th-March-2007, 04:24 PM
{snip}

:flower: No worries. Tired and Grouchy :flower:

Blues dancing is more about showing off the follow. Im not overly keen on doing that if I don't have the right dancer as you can (and norm do) end up with a very bland dance. New thread comming on. ...


There we go

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/lets-talk-about-dance/12003-lowering-your-game.html#post356617