Do you fingertip lead?

[ducasi]

As we seem to be talking a lot about this, I wondered what people actually do...

Poll is public, and allows multiple choices. :)

[Freya]

How bout an "I try to option" ???

[ducasi]

How bout an "I try to option" ???
I'd put "try to" in the same category as "yes". :)

[JonD]

I prefer to "fingertip lead" when I can - right follower, right type of movement. The main reason is that it gives me a greater range of possible leads; there is a greater contrast between "powerful" and "light" if my light lead is with a fingertip that there would be if it was with the whole hand. Also, a follower who responds to a fingertip is also more likely to be attuned to really subtle variations like the addition of another finger along the side of her hand to indicate an open walk (arms length, only connected by the hand - on those rare occasions when there is enough dance floor space to do it) rather than a rotational movement.

I think there's a danger of leading with one finger becoming a "fetish" though. It's just a lead/follow technique like any other. There's no point in trying to lead that way if the lead isn't clear to a particular follower so I change the way I lead depending on circumstances.

[Lynn]

If I'm leading, its usually beginner ladies and I try to use a fingertip lead sometimes to show them they don't need to grip on. It does seem to make a difference. Not sure if I was leading all the time if I'd adopt it as a habit as I just don't lead enough - but all the leads I've danced with who have used it have had good clear leads.

[SeriouslyAddicted]

This is quite interesting because our teacher only ever talks about fingertip to fingertip hold which would suggest that he is automatically encouraging fingertip lead. I would say that most of the men I dance with regulalry fingertip lead and likewise I hope that I do when I lead too.

[Gav]

My answer is no not ever, I think :sick::confused:

So what's all the fuss about?
Assuming you're simply talking about leading just by the fingertips and it isn't all some elaborate euphemism, is there any particular point to it?
or is it just personal choice?
Is it taught?
Should I even care? :na:

[StokeBloke]

If I'm leading, its usually beginner ladies and I try to use a fingertip lead sometimes to show them they don't need to grip on. It does seem to make a difference. Not sure if I was leading all the time if I'd adopt it as a habit as I just don't lead enough - but all the leads I've danced with who have used it have had good clear leads.
:yeah: it also helps when leading a beginner. If it all goes pear shaped the follow will just break contact and not get twisted and hurt.

I once had an over enthusiastic follow try to spin as I passed her in a step-across. My back was to her so I didn't see what she was up to, and I was glad I was leading lightly because as I snapped my arm back down to turn her into me her arm was twisted round her neck! Could have been nasty if I wasn't leading so lightly that she couldn't thumb grip me! We just broke contact and laughed it off, but... !:eek:!:eek:!:eek:!

You literally need eyes in the back of your skull to lead some follows :sick:

[David Bailey]

So what's all the fuss about?
Assuming you're simply talking about leading just by the fingertips and it isn't all some elaborate euphemism, is there any particular point to it?
The point, basically, is that if you can lead by a fingertip, the world's your lobster.

Or something like that :)

[Trouble]

My answer is no not ever, I think :sick::confused:

So what's all the fuss about?
Assuming you're simply talking about leading just by the fingertips and it isn't all some elaborate euphemism, is there any particular point to it?
or is it just personal choice?
Is it taught?
Should I even care? :na:

oooooh who got out the bed the wrong side this morning then. :what:

Anyway, yes its personal choice, no you dont have to care, no its not taught but you should be able to lead through somebody's fingers if you are a capable and knowledgable lead. :D - thats how i understand it anyway.

[Gav]

The point, basically, is that if you can lead by a fingertip, the world's your lobster.

Or something like that :)

Oh good, I like shellfish. :respect:

[Double Trouble]

So what's all the fuss about?

Nothing, as usual.:rolleyes:



Assuming you're simply talking about leading just by the fingertips and it isn't all some elaborate euphemism, is there any particular point to it?

No point whatsoever.


or is it just personal choice?

Yes



Is it taught?

If it is taught, you would try it for half a second, think you can't get the hang of it..and go and sulk in the corner and say you are not playing any more.



Should I even care? :na:

No

[Gav]

oooooh who got out the bed the wrong side this morning then. :what:

Anyway, yes its personal choice, no you dont have to care, no its not taught but you should be able to lead through somebody's fingers if you are a capable and knowledgable lead. :D - thats how i understand it anyway.

Still no point then?


Nothing, as usual.:rolleyes:
No point whatsoever.
Yes
If it is taught, you would try it for half a second, think you can't get the hang of it..and go and sulk in the corner and say you are not playing any more.
No

Straight answers at last :respect:
That's not fair, I'm telling my mum of you. :tears:

[StokeBloke]

Nothing, as usual.:rolleyes:

No point whatsoever.

How often do you lead babe? :flower:

[Double Trouble]

How often do you lead babe? :flower:

What are you? The lead police?

[Trouble]

How often do you lead babe? :flower:

i think he is trying to make a point here sis :rolleyes:

[Double Trouble]

i think he is trying to make a point here sis :rolleyes:

I know. Yet again...Irony goes over your head at a million miles an hour.:tears:

[Trouble]

I know. Yet again...Irony goes over your head at a million miles an hour.:tears:

mmmmmm how about .....i was letting you know i was aware that he was being ironic and giving you the nod to go back at him where i would be supporting you 100%. yet again, missed cue. :D

[Double Trouble]

mmmmmm how about .....i was letting you know i was aware that he was being ironic and giving you the nod to go back at him where i would be supporting you 100%. yet again, missed cue. :D

I'm bored now. Taxi for DT please...!

[frodo]

If I'm leading, its usually beginner ladies and I try to use a fingertip lead sometimes to show them they don't need to grip on. It does seem to make a difference. ...
:yeah: You could use other leads to prevent gripping but fingtip seems good for sending a non verbal message - sometimes useful to remind more experienced ladies also.

Otherwise I did but try not to now.

[Gav]

and still no-one has managed to come up with a decent reason for, err, ...

what was this thread about?

[Double Trouble]

what was this thread about?

Exactly....Yawn.


My Taxi hasn't arrived yet.:D

[spindr]

and still no-one has managed to come up with a decent reason for, err, ...

what was this thread about?
Extra length in the handhold :)
Useful for wrapping...
...especially when the follower is wrapped in so that they are facing you.

SpinDr

[StokeBloke]

Extra length in the handhold :)
Useful for wrapping...
...especially when the follower is wrapped in so that they are facing you.

SpinDr
.....or the follow is particularly Rubenesque and you need every inch you can get. Also nice if you are getting ready for a shirt change and you are a bit on the clammy side. I also think it looks nicer, it certainly feels nicer - less is often more. It reduces the risk of hurting your follow if it all goes to hell in a hand cart. It also makes you think more carefully about your lead, which improves your dancing no end......

..but apart from that what have the Romans ever done for us? :D :D :D

[Trousers]

I'm actually with Gav here (More or Less)

The lead is only wrong when it goes TiTs up. Until that time do what you need to do.

The only thing I can see the Fingertip thing does is shows you that you can lead lightly.

Ok! Empowered by that knowledge, do you go out and insist on Fingertip lead for everyone in the knowledge that not everyone will get the lead you offer and you will take the moral high ground and insist the lead was good. :what:

Your lead is like your musicality.
It changes to cater for the music, the partner, the wixers all around you.

Try and dance fingertips to ELO - Roll Over Beethoven it really won't work
You can't fanny about with a finger tip lead that fast and i think the follower really wants to know you are there when she goes back - a good solid connection.

[Trouble]

I'm actually with Gav here (More or Less)

The lead is only wrong when it goes TiTs up.

You can't fanny about with a finger tip lead .

ERRR what are we talking about here... :D :D

[StokeBloke]

Try and dance fingertips to ELO - Roll Over Beethoven it really won't work
You can't fanny about with a finger tip lead that fast and i think the follower really wants to know you are there when she goes back - a good solid connection.
I completely agree with you Trousers. I don't think that there's a one-size-fits-all with any aspect of dancing is there?

Although in fairness the question posed by the this thread is 'Do you fingertip lead?' and not 'Do you always fingertip lead?'

[Trousers]

I completely agree with you Trousers. I don't think that there's a one-size-fits-all with any aspect of dancing is there?

Although in fairness the question posed by the this thread is 'Do you fingertip lead?' and not 'Do you always fingertip lead?'

Ok Ok so it wasn't a one-size-fits-all post

but it made the point !

:waycool:

[Gav]

I'm actually with Gav here (More or Less)


That's not a good thing to admit to, I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about (just for a change :rolleyes:)

[Trousers]

That's not a good thing to admit to, I haven't got a clue what I'm talking about (just for a change :rolleyes:)

Shhhhh you fool we're winning!

[Freya]

Shhhhh you fool we're winning!

Winning what???? I thought that most of us had agreed that Figer tip lead while good and can feel great had a place but could not be used all the time!?!

Someone help me I'm Confused!!! :confused:

[Gav]

Shhhhh you fool we're winning!


Winning what???? I thought that most of us had agreed that Figer tip lead while good and can feel great had a place but could not be used all the time!?!

Someone help me I'm Confused!!! :confused:

You were right, it's working perfectly! :D

[Gadget]

It depends on the song and what I'm trying to lead and who I'm trying to lead, :rolleyes:

...but in general I like to 'guide' the follower rather than 'lead' them: a lead goes infront of them, while 'guidance' works along-side and nudges them into the path I want.

[Dreadful Scathe]

No point whatsoever.

A fingertip lead allows for good connection/tension and avoids pulling/pushing the follower off balance. Which isn't to say its better than any other lead but it does suit some followers and some music quite well. Its good as an exercise for leaders who have a problem with making their lead clear and for followers who have a habit of anticipating. It can make people feel the connection more than they otherwise would.

Has no one danced with David Barker ? :)

[Tiggerbabe]

Has no one danced with David Barker ? :)
*sigh* just recently, a couple of times at Hammersmith :drool: :D

[MartinHarper]

A fingertip lead allows for good connection/tension

By tension, do you mean what WCS folks call "leverage" - the opposite of "compression"? In other words, do you mean having a "pull" force over the connection? I ask because I don't see how you can get a decent amount of either leverage or compression with a fingertip lead. As far as I can tell, fingertip lead + compression = prodding.

(though MJ does not require significant amounts of leverage or compression, so this is not a downside from an MJ-perspective)

[Dreadful Scathe]

In other words, do you mean having a "pull" force over the connection?

Pretty much - but it comes from BOTH leader and follower so for a lead forward the leader "pushes" and the follower moves back to keep the same arm tension.

[Little Monkey]

Has no one danced with David Barker ? :)

Not since December! :tears:

But yes, he is the Ultimate Light Fingertip Lead. :cool:

[TA Guy]

Prolly 90% of my MJ leading is more or less fingertip, off the top of my head, these are the advantages I can think of that apply to me. Others might argue other grip methods perform just as well or better for them. I have no problem with that :)

1) Helps prevents injury (e.g. no more Pretzel twist shoulder wrenches, your connection just slips apart if something goes wrong)
2) Allows more flexibility (e.g. easier to change to other grips, easier grip maneuverability (one of the keys to clear leading I think) etc.)
3) Allows more subtle control (I think)
4) Less strenuous (e,g, saves wrist strength for raising beer mug :))
5) Makes it easier for the lady to hijack a tad and do more of those sexy bodyroll things, decide her own led spin speed and whatnot. (Um, I assume this to be true, ladies?)



The only thing I would say is that you could argue in all of the above, lightness of lead is important as well to a lesser or greater degree (light lead doesn't mean unclear!) But there's prolly some obscure relationship between lightness of lead and how you grip anyway :)
The other 10% (or whatever it is) are those moves than require a different grip. Blocking moves and the like. And I can report unfavourable results using fingertip grips for drops :)

[NZ Monkey]

On reflection I use a fingertip lead on a number of followers (generally the better ones...:whistle:) to slower music. For a lot of followers, this means I'll only ever use a fingertip lead with them as I only see them at Utopia, Funky Lush or the Putney T-Jive :devil:

Thinking critically about it though there are only three real advantages I can see for using this kind of lead:

1) It forces both partners to listen to one another. Consequently the people who are good at it are good at listening to their partner, and almost certainly much better leads or follows for it.

2)It encourages both partners to maintain their own balance at all times, with the obvious drops and aerials exceptions.

3) Being able to lead only by your fingertips is helpful when doing things that require grip changes. You can continue maintaining a suitable connection between grip changes if you're used to leading that way all the time. (props to TA Guy for mentioning that before I got off my lazy !@#$ and posted :na: )


The first two points I made are the most important I think, but the flipside of it is that once both partners are consistantly listening to one another the (exclusive) fingertip lead just reduces options. Without the ability to gain compression or 'leverage' there are many moves or embelishments that simply can't be performed, and it can be very difficult leading tempo changes unless your partner is extremely good.

Attempting to use a fingertip lead to even a medium paced track with a follower who isn't top-rate is usually an invitation for a broken connection as they come flying off after trying to use their partner as a break.

I totally dissagree with the assertation that a fingertip connection is what allows a lead to be subtle. It is very difficult to make a fingertip lead anything other than subtle, but that isn't the same thing. In fact, I'm going to argue that using a full-handed connection can be even more subtle stilll since the greater area of contact allows for greater sensitivity if you're listening to your partner - see point 1. I can't imagine anyone saying that leads in AT are not subtle....

In practice, I think most of us who do use fingertip leads just change when it isn't appropriate and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I do wonder if aiming to lead like this all the time is a hinderence in the long run though. DavidB may lead like this all the time, but Amir doesn't. I hear the ladies fawning over how nice both of them are to dance with in roughly equal amounts :innocent:

For the record, I don't believe for a second that DavidB can't change his leading style if and when it's appropriate. I don't think I've ever heard anyone comment on anything other than his light fingertip lead though

[TA Guy]

On reflection I use a fingertip lead on a number of followers (generally the better ones...:whistle:) to slower music. For a lot of followers, this means I'll only ever use a fingertip lead with them as I only see them at Utopia, Funky Lush or the Putney T-Jive :devil:

Thinking critically about it though there are only three real advantages I can see for using this kind of lead:

1) It forces both partners to listen to one another. Consequently the people who are good at it are good at listening to their partner, and almost certainly much better leads or follows for it.

2)It encourages both partners to maintain their own balance at all times, with the obvious drops and aerials exceptions.

3) Being able to lead only by your fingertips is helpful when doing things that require grip changes. You can continue maintaining a suitable connection between grip changes if you're used to leading that way all the time. (props to TA Guy for mentioning that before I got off my lazy !@#$ and posted :na: )


The first two points I made are the most important I think, but the flipside of it is that once both partners are consistantly listening to one another the (exclusive) fingertip lead just reduces options. Without the ability to gain compression or 'leverage' there are many moves or embelishments that simply can't be performed, and it can be very difficult leading tempo changes unless your partner is extremely good.

Attempting to use a fingertip lead to even a medium paced track with a follower who isn't top-rate is usually an invitation for a broken connection as they come flying off after trying to use their partner as a break.

I totally dissagree with the assertation that a fingertip connection is what allows a lead to be subtle. It is very difficult to make a fingertip lead anything other than subtle, but that isn't the same thing. In fact, I'm going to argue that using a full-handed connection can be even more subtle stilll since the greater area of contact allows for greater sensitivity if you're listening to your partner - see point 1. I can't imagine anyone saying that leads in AT are not subtle....

In practice, I think most of us who do use fingertip leads just change when it isn't appropriate and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I do wonder if aiming to lead like this all the time is a hinderence in the long run though. DavidB may lead like this all the time, but Amir doesn't. I hear the ladies fawning over how nice both of them are to dance with in roughly equal amounts :innocent:

For the record, I don't believe for a second that DavidB can't change his leading style if and when it's appropriate. I don't think I've ever heard anyone comment on anything other than his light fingertip lead though


I remember all the discussions about bouncy hands and those that have a problem with it saying they found the way to deal with it most successfully most to 'go with the flow'. (I think that's what the concensus was anyway, in other words, match!).
Similarly, one of the things about the grip is I think it helps if both follower and leader are applying the same amount of pressure. You can be just as subtle with a very heavy grip or a very light grip, provided your partner has the same. The problems occur (I think, this is off top of head!!!!) when the pressure in the grip does not match.

If you follow this methology, then leverage and compression do not become a problem. Fingertip lead does not mean you cannot apply leverage or compression. Put the fingertips of both hands together and press hard, more than enough pressure for dance leverage/compression. I guess it might mean the 'controls' for it are more subtle tho. On the other hand, when I need fast and/or hard compression/leverage, E.G. more or less a block, my grip changes to something more than fingertip. aka more WCS or ballroom. I guess the grip change itself communicates something to the follower as well.

That makes sense to me, but all this stuff is so not what I think about when dancing, so who knows :)



Glad you added the bit about 'listening'. i wasn't sure about the 'easier to let the lady slow things down or add bodyrolls if she wants' kind of thing, but I guess 'listening' implies that :) Since I love that kinda stuff, important to me :kiss:

[NZ Monkey]

If you follow this methology, then leverage and compression do not become a problem. Fingertip lead does not mean you cannot apply leverage or compression. Put the fingertips of both hands together and press hard, more than enough pressure for dance leverage/compression. That really does depend on what you're trying to do. It's pretty hard to lead (any) lady into an assisted slide with little more pressure than just contact for instance. I'm not dissagreeing completely, but there are times when I've done things with a fingertip lead and relied on a hanging-above-a-100ft-drop-into-crocodile-infested-waters fingertip grip to maintain connection with my partner when I thought that a firmer grip wouldn't be a bad idea....:wink:


On the other hand, when I need fast and/or hard compression/leverage, E.G. more or less a block, my grip changes to something more than fingertip. aka more WCS or ballroom. I guess the grip change itself communicates something to the follower as well.

If you change grip to do different things then that's not a problem either, as long as you manage to keep your intentions clear when doing so.

I think most of us manage that consistantly, but I strongly suspect that this is something we've developed in part to compensate for a weakness in the fingertip hold to begin with. I'm not suggesting that there is only one position for the hands to be in the whole dance and there will never be any need to change them, but it is one more thing that can go wrong if you have to change grips constantly. If this isn't necessary for good and clear leading and following then why do it?

I'm really just hypothesising here. I'm not good enough to be able to say with absolute conviction that this is The Truth, but based on what I've seen and heard from the pro's and my own ponderings I do think the fabled fingertip lead may not be the holy grail it's occasionaly portrayed as being.

[TA Guy]

If you change grip to do different things then that's not a problem either, as long as you manage to keep your intentions clear when doing so.

I think most of us manage that consistantly, but I strongly suspect that this is something we've developed in part to compensate for a weakness in the fingertip hold to begin with. I'm not suggesting that there is only one position for the hands to be in the whole dance and there will never be any need to change them, but it is one more thing that can go wrong if you have to change grips constantly. If this isn't necessary for good and clear leading and following then why do it?

I'm really just hypothesising here. I'm not good enough to be able to say with absolute conviction that this is The Truth, but based on what I've seen and heard from the pro's and my own ponderings I do think the fabled fingertip lead may not be the holy grail it's occasionaly portrayed as being.

I have no idea whether fingertip grip is the holy grail or not. :)
I think whatever your grip, all dancers rotate, slide, change there grip in some way constantly. It's impossible to dance at all smoothly without it.

Also, maybe there's some misunderstanding going on. Perhaps I'm using the wrong terminology. Fingertip grip is not some 'touching' of fingertips, that wouldn't work :), there is hooking involved! Loose hooking. :) At least beneath shoulder height, mine is sometimes a bit more 'tippy' once the arms are above shoulder height, hand high exit from first move for example (where I'm secretly hoping the lady will take control and bodyroll and whatnot :))

Jordan Frisbee, say that Boston Tea Party clip that floats around the web, is a good example of fingertip leading. I just checked :)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tf5BooCG_28"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tf5BooCG_28" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

or

YouTube - Jordan & Tatiana, Boston Tea Party (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf5BooCG_28)

[NZ Monkey]

That's quite funny, since it was those two who taught me not to use just the fingertips in the first palce :na:

[TA Guy]

That's quite funny, since it was those two who taught me not to use just the fingertips in the first palce :na:

You had lessons from J&T. Cool, I'm so jealous. :respect:

Oh well, I've prolly got the terminology wrong then. What did they call it, because aside from the actual start grip, it's pretty much what I would call fingertip all the way thru ?

[Whitebeard]

You had lessons from J&T. Cool, I'm so jealous. :respect:

Oh well, I've prolly got the terminology wrong then. What did they call it, because aside from the actual start grip, it's pretty much what I would call fingertip all the way thru ?

Yes, I think it's the terminology that's fogging the issue here. To me, that was a lovely slowish dance with a delicate yet firm connection (I'm learning to filter out the [IMSVHO] overfussy WCS footwork) . The video quality is pretty poor, but I see the leads fingers splayed quite frequently denoting (most probably) a second finger lead at those points whilst, at other times, there is a hook connection. Just what I, in my very inferior way, tend to do. I also notice the leader twisting his hand/wrist whilst in that hook connection from time to time and have yet to work out just what that is signalling.

Please don't use the word 'grip'; it sounds so very forceful. Even 'hold' is a tad too much.

Do you think a lady like Tatiana would make even me look good; or merely completely inadequate? To me, she's the star of that partnership.

[TA Guy]

Do you think a lady like Tatiana would make even me look good; or merely completely inadequate? To me, she's the star of that partnership.

I think Tatiana could make a dancing bear look good :)

Their partnership is great. Where I think they score slightly over the other great couples is the demarcation. Tatiana is full of soft musicality, variations in spin, flourishes etc. JF has got the attitude, the harder, striking, poses etc. The classic male/female dance. Each plays their part so perfectly, and compliments the other. It's one of the things I admire about their dancing.



I also notice the leader twisting his hand/wrist whilst in that hook connection from time to time and have yet to work out just what that is signalling.


Something beyond my WCS knowledge.
It matches what I do to lead a MJ sway... but several times he does it with no discernable affect that I am capable of detecting.
Until an expert arrives and tells us, I'll just strike it up to the subtle mysteries of the WCS connection. There seems to be loads of 'em :)


That clip has had it's quality lowered by being uploaded to Youtube, there is a slightly better WMV version floating around the web you can directly download, but I don't have a URL.

[spindr]

Just to note that a lot of fingertip leading relies on the follower keeping their fingers "hooked" in a curve -- so that the leader can get some "purchase". You can see that in the video clip -- it's also something salsa followers get told to do.

If followers keep their fingers straight, then it makes fingertip leading much more difficult -- and leads may have to resort to using thumbs, or some "chopstick-like" grip.

SpinDr

[Gadget]

:hmmm: Thinking on it, I doubt I actually use a "fingertip to fingertip" connection for more than about 30% of my dancing - my connection varys from fingers to wrists to fore-arms, backs, shoulders, necks, hips....

OK, the majority of my connection is with the finger tips, but I lead with whatever part of my body happens to be in contact with my partner. {:what: let's keep this downstairs shall we? :rolleyes:}