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Terpsichorea
15th-March-2007, 11:23 AM
No, not the seasonal chore which you delegate to your wife *ducks flying object*. I mean wrapping the lady in when you dance. Is there an accepted way of signalling that you want the lady to wrap in when she's, say, at arm's length? It's something which I find difficult to communicate to my partner, and was wondering whether anyone has any tips on this.

And on a further note (to spare me the chore of starting another thread) is there an agreed way of differentiating whether you're going to initiate a hatchback or a yoyo? I have discovered that most of the people at my venue aren't aware of any taught hand signal etc which the lead can offer to distinguish which of the two moves he's about to lead into.

Gav
15th-March-2007, 11:35 AM
And on a further note (to spare me the chore of starting another thread) is there an agreed way of differentiating whether you're going to initiate a hatchback or a yoyo? I have discovered that most of the people at my venue aren't aware of any taught hand signal etc which the lead can offer to distinguish which of the two moves he's about to lead into.

Not sure what you mean by wrapping in :confused:

However, when you step forwards for a yo-yo taking your right arm to your right shoulder, keep your hand slightly curved (a slight twist inwards at the wrist tends to make sure that she will maintain her "grip") as you normally would.
For a hatchback, however, flatten your right hand on chest/shoulder to signal that she's not holding on this time.
Beginner followers (or people that have just never come across this move) and "grippers" can make this difficult for you, but a strong flick of the wrist as you turn them out usually gets the message across. :wink:

Terpsichorea
15th-March-2007, 11:45 AM
Not sure what you mean by wrapping in :confused:

However, when you step forwards for a yo-yo taking your right arm to your right shoulder, keep your hand slightly curved (a slight twist inwards at the wrist tends to make sure that she will maintain her "grip") as you normally would.
For a hatchback, however, flatten your right hand on chest/shoulder to signal that she's not holding on this time.
Beginner followers (or people that have just never come across this move) and "grippers" can make this difficult for you, but a strong flick of the wrist as you turn them out usually gets the message across. :wink:

Ah, I think I must have encountered an unusually high proportion of grippers! :wink:

With regard to wrapping in, an example would be if I was standing, left hand to followers left, and wanted her to turn into me, spinning clockwise until my left arm is wrapped around her, so that I can offer her my right, enclosing her.

under par
15th-March-2007, 11:48 AM
No, not the seasonal chore which you delegate to your wife *ducks flying object*. I mean wrapping the lady in when you dance. Is there an accepted way of signalling that you want the lady to wrap in when she's, say, at arm's length? It's something which I find difficult to communicate to my partner, and was wondering whether anyone has any tips on this.

.

I don't usually post on the technicalities of dance moves but I'm bored today so see if this makes any sense.


If you are stood facing the same way arm lengths apart (your leaders r/h with followers l/h) you can lead the lady sideways by a gentle movement of leaders hand towards him/herself, the follower should stop when the leader imparts a counter movement or check on the follower this could be with either hand or on any part of follower.

Now to get the follower to wrap in as opposed to move in a straight line from the same position above as the leader initiates the motion of the follower towards himself as above through the outstretched arm and he uses a wrist action which can be perceived as a semi circle but is in fact the fingers moving in a flicky action from outstretched position to almost a fist shape. This leading of the follower towards the leader with an immediate flick of the wrist should let the follower know you want a wrap in.

Do it slowly at first as a rough pull in and wrist flick can be painful if got wrong.

Apologies for being over wordy but it is my best effort at trying to define what is in fact a very subtle lead.

Terpsichorea
15th-March-2007, 11:55 AM
If you are stood facing the same way arm lengths apart (your leaders r/h with followers l/h) you can lead the lady sideways by a gentle movement of leaders hand towards him/herself, the follower should stop when the leader imparts a counter movement or check on the follower this could be with either hand or on any part of follower.

to get the follower to wrap in as opposed to move in a straight line from the same position above as the leader initiates the motion of the follower towards himself as above through the outstretched arm and he uses a wrist action which can be perceived as a semi circle but is in fact the fingers moving in a flicky action from outstretched position to almost a fist shape. This leading of the follower towards the leader with an immediate flick of the wrist should let the follower know you want a wrap in.

Do it slowly at first as a rough pull in and wrist flick can be painful if got wrong.

Apologies for being over wordy but it is my best effort at trying to define what is in fact a very subtle lead.

Hi, thanks for that, that's a great way of breaking the whole process down. So I suppose the process of initiation behinds at the hand then. Should your arm assume a slight curve inwards to signify a wrap as well?

under par
15th-March-2007, 12:00 PM
Hi, thanks for that, that's a great way of breaking the whole process down. So I suppose the process of initiation behinds at the hand then. Should your arm assume a slight curve inwards to signify a wrap as well?
Yes i believe that your arm will curve in towards yourself as well.... but the lead can be very light and does not have to be a "pull" in and "whip" in ..... a light movement towards yourself with the hand immediately followed by a wrist flick should achieve a lovely wrap in. ... hopefully:innocent:

David Bailey
15th-March-2007, 12:23 PM
If you are stood facing the same way arm lengths apart (your leaders r/h with followers l/h) you can lead the lady sideways by a gentle movement of leaders hand towards him/herself, the follower should stop when the leader imparts a counter movement or check on the follower this could be with either hand or on any part of follower.
Good tip!

Another possibility, if you encounter a reluctant wrappee, is to wrap yourself around them - i.e in that example, walking around them anti-clockwise, if they're not turning themselves clockwise.

I'm not sure if that's good practice generally, however, as it may encourage a bit of laziness - and of course, it promotes circular dancing by default.

LMC
15th-March-2007, 01:22 PM
I've had real problems following wrap moves recently - sways, baskets, etc.

I wish I knew whether that was because my following is improving (so I am following the actual lead - or lack of it :devil: ) or whether it is because I am "missing" something (most likely :tears: )

Certainly, from a follower's POV, just leading someone straight towards you and moving your arm outwards before they crash into you may not always enough - fick ones like me need some indication to actually make the 180deg turn to wrap in.

AFA the hatchback is concerned - ask someone you trust (e.g. teacher/demo) to check that you are leading the hatchback correctly. If it's the move I'm thinking of, then the problem may be with anticipating followers assuming you're leading a yo-yo. Signals are Evil. Saying "hatchback" will make many followers go "Eh? - just lead it" (I rarely remember the names of moves - as a follower, I don't need to :innocent: ).

Gadget
15th-March-2007, 02:55 PM
yo-yo vs hatchback
Firstly (as mentioned above) the hand hold differs, but in decent followers it shouldn't matter. {I use a 'pistol grip' hold and scissor troublesome follower's hand at my shoulder for the yo-yo and make sure that they can't get their hands under my flat hand on the hatchback.}
The lead for the yo-yo should be a constant guiding at the same momentum from your shoulder down to their hip. For the hatch back, it's an accelerated lead, halting like you've hit something at the low point (theory being that the momentum given should carry the follower on into a free-spin)

Sway
Half the difficulty in leading a sway is that the lead normally expects the follower to do all of the traveling; tip1 - step in as you lead the follower to step in.

At the distance the follower is from a step back, you can't lead them to rotate without some wild arm movement; tip2 - lead them to start stepping towards you then move the hand out to rotate them.

Where are you leading the follower to? Don't move your hand in a diagonal and if your lead stops at your right hand side, you are relying on the follower anticipating the remainder of the turn*; tip3 - draw your hand in the path you want the follower's shoulder to move over the top of, including a small forward 'nudge' at the end.

Hope that helps :D

{* the arm out to the side should only lead the followers to turn 90ยบ if they are following like a fickel person :wink:}

Ghost
15th-March-2007, 03:50 PM
For yo-yo's vs hatchbacks - I was taught to make a fist with my right hand for the hatchback so there's nothing to grip onto and just use the back of my hand to "project" her away. Works well.

As regards wrapping - the move before it is important as it helps set it up. Try leading a slingshot first. An octopus is another nice set-up for sway / neck-breaks (particularly with step ceroc footwork / timing) though you'll need to switch hands as you bring her in.

Freya
15th-March-2007, 04:09 PM
For yo-yo's vs hatchbacks - I was taught to make a fist with my right hand for the hatchback so there's nothing to grip onto and just use the back of my hand to "project" her away. Works well.
Does it????

I've tried this before with one lady since she just tended to cling on and had a tendancy to lead herself through moves! She just wrapped her hand around my fist!?! and then proceeded to drag me through the move!!!!:eek:

Ghost
15th-March-2007, 04:23 PM
An octopus is another nice set-up for sway / neck-breaks (particularly with step ceroc footwork / timing) though you'll need to switch hands as you bring her in.
Opps - meant an open neckbreak :blush: Haven't done the "Police STOP!" thing in a long while :D

Does it????

I've tried this before with one lady since she just tended to cling on and had a tendancy to lead herself through moves! She just wrapped her hand around my fist!?! and then proceeded to drag me through the move!!!!:eek:
:rofl:

Ok it will still work if you really want it too :devil:

Make a fist from your right hand and wrap your left around it. Now basically throw a punch with your right hand - but here's the important bit - at the end of the punch snap your right hand back to it's start position. You should find your left hand slides right off (and if you were really gripping, you'll hear the sound of one hand clapping :clap: ). So in Ceroc for a hatchback you throw a backfist and whip it back in sharply. If you really want to :innocent:

Gadget
15th-March-2007, 07:34 PM
It also helps if your hands are bigger than your partners :wink:

Freya
15th-March-2007, 07:35 PM
It also helps if your hands are bigger than your partners :wink:

MAybe thats my problem!!! I only 'ave ickle ones!

MartinHarper
15th-March-2007, 08:12 PM
Is there an accepted way of signalling that you want the lady to wrap in when she's, say, at arm's length?

Yeah, this is a pig to lead/follow.

If you have your partner at arm's length, guy's right to lady's left, the lead is to move the lady's hand to her left, and then stop moving her hand. This leads the lady to start wrapping in, and then continue that wrapping in motion until she is fully wrapped. She does this because she knows to keep moving until I stop her.

On the other hand, from the same initial position, suppose I move the lady's hand to her left, and then stop her hand moving. Now the lady will start wrapping in, but will stop wrapping in when her hand stops. She does this because she knows to stop her body when I stop her hand.

This is a subtle distinction. To add to the confusion, many wraps involve an element of travelling from the lady. So you need to lead this motion prior to the wrap. It's all entirely possible, but it's towards the upper end of lead/follow in MJ. In practice, most wraps are "followed" because guys are predictable and ladies aren't stupid.

MartinHarper
15th-March-2007, 08:15 PM
Do it slowly at first as a rough pull in and wrist flick can be painful if got wrong.

Also, if I get a follower who actually follows a rough pull-in and wrist flick, and I wasn't expecting that, they'll probably knock me off my feet. It's pretty much a lead for the follower to shoulder-barge the leader.

spindr
15th-March-2007, 09:31 PM
No, not the seasonal chore which you delegate to your wife *ducks flying object*. I mean wrapping the lady in when you dance. Is there an accepted way of signalling that you want the lady to wrap in when she's, say, at arm's length? It's something which I find difficult to communicate to my partner, and was wondering whether anyone has any tips on this.

Be careful if you find you are trying to lead at arm's length -- you need some "slack" to lead well.

If you are leading a travelling wrap -- then you need to initiate the travel first.

Then you need to lead a "slight prep" -- leading the hands the opposite way to the turn, before leading the wrap.

Lead fingertips to fingertips -- you need the extra length in the "arms" to give you enough length for the wrap.


And on a further note (to spare me the chore of starting another thread) is there an agreed way of differentiating whether you're going to initiate a hatchback or a yoyo? I have discovered that most of the people at my venue aren't aware of any taught hand signal etc which the lead can offer to distinguish which of the two moves he's about to lead into.

The difference between a yoyo and a hatchback is the handhold / lack of handhold when the lady is at your right side (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/modern_jive_signals.html).

SpinDr

Ghost
16th-March-2007, 12:20 AM
MAybe thats my problem!!! I only 'ave ickle ones!
:innocent:

The punch thing works pretty much regardless. I've left nice white grip marks on various women proving this. There's just no way their thumb is going to be stronger than your arm which is pretty much what it comes down to.

As an aside though, I'm moving more strongly to the "stop dancing and ask them to stop gripping" side of things. Someone gripping your hand hard and then backleading a yo-yo is coming awfully close to doing wrist-locks / breaks. I'm assuming they let go to do the turn after the block?

Gadget
16th-March-2007, 09:31 AM
If you have your partner at arm's length,~
If a partner is at arm's length, then they are too far away to physically lead anything other than them to move towards you or fix their position.
{There are some other (non-physical) leads, but they involve the follower paying attention :devil:}

To add to the confusion, many wraps involve an element of travelling from the lady. So you need to lead this motion prior to the wrap.see - move forward, then wrap.


Be careful if you find you are trying to lead at arm's length -- you need some "slack" to lead well.
If you are leading a travelling wrap -- then you need to initiate the travel first.
and again - move forward, then wrap.


Then you need to lead a "slight prep" -- leading the hands the opposite way to the turn, before leading the wrap.
I dissagree with this bit; the follower taking a step should be enough prep work - what this will do is make sure you don't lead the arm out to the side too quicky to make the follower move in a diagonal "\" rather than a smoother "L"


Lead fingertips to fingertips -- you need the extra length in the "arms" to give you enough length for the wrap.?? really? I lead with the fingertips anyway, but have never found any time I needed extra length in my arms... perhaps I've just got loooong arms?


Another tip: I use the inside of my lead shoulder to stop the wrap on the back of the follower's shoulder - it ensures that they are close and gives another contact point to form a connection through.

MartinHarper
16th-March-2007, 10:51 AM
If a partner is at arm's length, then they are too far away to physically lead anything other than them to move towards you or fix their position.

I said arm's length, not arms' length. :)
(ok, fair point, but pedantry evokes my competitive spirit)

LMC
17th-March-2007, 11:41 AM
If you have your partner at arm's length, guy's right to lady's left, the lead is to move the lady's hand to her left, and then stop moving her hand. This leads the lady to start wrapping in, and then continue that wrapping in motion until she is fully wrapped. She does this because she knows to keep moving until I stop her.

On the other hand, from the same initial position, suppose I move the lady's hand to her left, and then stop her hand moving. Now the lady will start wrapping in, but will stop wrapping in when her hand stops. She does this because she knows to stop her body when I stop her hand.
Nail hit on head :respect:

ducasi
17th-March-2007, 02:41 PM
Yo-yo vs Hatchback... For the hatchback, rather that put my RH flat against me, as some followers will hold onto that, I instead turn my hand to have the flat of my palm against the outside of her thumb, and wrist. The follower cannot hold on to that easily, and the push becomes very obvious.

An alternative is to do left-handed hatchbacks – lead in with the right as usual, but push out with the left. This variant led me to adopt the hand-hold described above, as I started doing with my RH what I would do with my LH in the LH variant. (Does that makes sense? :))

Wrapping... For a sway, your lead should be a mirrored "J" shaped – as everybody else has said, step in to the move – don't expect your partner to do all the work.

For something like a R-L basket wrap, almost all followers will some amount of experience will naturally wrap in without any signal if you keep your hand low and lead them towards your right side. (The same is true for the sway.)

The best followers and the inexperienced ones will want the wrap led, as in the first case you may actually not be leading it, and in the second they haven't got used to what the "normal" action is for this kind of lead.

And so, as others have said, you want to put an indication of the turn into your lead. This doesn't need to be too dramatic either. A simple twist of your hand could be enough, with maybe a slight outwards motion at the same time.

Hope this helps. (And is clear enough!)