Ceroc style vs technique vs moves

[DavidB]

It has been interesting reading some of these comments. A few random thoughts: What do you mean by style?
Can you learn style if you ignore technique?
Do you go to a style workshop to develop your own style, or copy someone else's? (Good luck to anyone who can copy Victor & Lydia!!)
The emphasis in Modern Jive is almost exclusively on doing moves. Contrast this to the emphasis in Ballroom dancing, where the emphasis is on technique, and Lindy (I'm told) & West Coast Swing, where it is on musical interpretation. So can Modern Jive style be defined as how well you make a complicated move look?
I always think that Modern Jive feels better than it looks. I'm still trying to work out why.
Are there any Modern Jive couples you would stop dancing so you could watch?David
PS I didn't go to Victor & Lydia's workshop - it was a bit far... I have seen them dance, and like their style - even if I could never dance like that. I'm not criticising their workshop - I'm more interested in what people think about style, and were expecting from the workshop.

[Gus]

The emphasis in Modern Jive is almost exclusively on doing moves. Contrast this to the emphasis in Ballroom dancing, where the emphasis is on technique, and Lindy (I'm told) & West Coast Swing, where it is on musical interpretation. So can Modern Jive style be defined as how well you make a complicated move look? For once I may have to disagree (slightly) with Dave. Having had the pleasure of hosting Viktor and Lydia a number of times I would say is that both male and female dancers can learn a hell of a lot about style .... and that doesn'y necessarily mean copying THEIR style.

What V&L have very succesfully shown that even so called 'simple' moves can be made to look something special. I've been dancing longer than I care to remember and have now hit that halcyon level of having forgotten more moves than I know (OK ... partly due to the fact that I have the memory of a small goldfish).. BUT, my best move is now First Move, based on the syle I've picked up from the likes of Viktor and Roger Chin.

Again ... the ladies at our club (Nantwich, Cheshire) made major steps forward in stylish interprestation of the Ceroc moves from following Lydia's lead in making more of their body movement ... and Lydia has body movement that really increases your interest in style .... sorry have to lie down for a moment:sorry

Anyway ... though I apreciate some of the comments made, me and the rest of the North West are eagerly looking forward to V&L's next visit to Cheshire on 27th July. The workshop is already a sell-out and I look forward to seeing the passion for dance increased once more.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
For once I may have to disagree (slightly) with Dave.Don't worry about that. Most people disagree with me. Even I don't necessarily agree with myself all the time.

The comment about moves was one made to me by a teacher at Camber last year. He wanted to start teaching something different (he said style and technique), but the pressure from his regular dancers was just to keep teaching moves. If you take Camber as being a good cross-section of dancers from around the country, his situation was not unique. Most people just wanted to learn one move after another, and the flashier the better.

I don't see anything wrong with this (for intermediate dancers). People dance to have fun, and Jive is one of the most enjoyable forms of dancing I know. All you need to do is know a few moves, and you can dance as often as you like, and it feels great. The more moves you know, the more fun you can have.

But if you aspire to being an advanced dancer, you need to know more than moves. You need to understand how to dance, how to move, how to lead/follow etc. You need to understand the music. And you want it to look good. Style is all about how your dancing looks to other people.

Everyone has their own style - it is simply the way you dance. You are the only person who can think, move, feel, act etc the way you do. But there are very few people who naturally have good style - ie who think, move, feel, act etc and make it look good without even thinking about it. Everyone else has to learn.

I think style workshops are a very good idea. Having someone say "I think this looks good. This is how you do it", or "This doesn't look good, so don't do it" can save you a lot of time. You will never dance like the teacher, but they will never dance like you. And it is worth it - you are on the way to being an advanced dancer, not just another intermediate dancer who knows a lot of moves.

To answer my own question - can Modern Jive style be defined as how well you make a complicated move look?
For an intermediate dancer - yes. But for an advanced dancer, style is making a simple move look good, and a complicated move look simple.
(For me - I don't know any complicated moves, and I can't make the simple moves look the way I want them to. So I'm probably a beginner.)

From the sound of it, Gus and Franck should be congratulated for encouraging their dancers to learn more than just another move. And Viktor and Lydia should be congratulated for teaching it, and improving the standard of dancing around the country.

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB

What do you mean by style?Style is what makes the dance look good to anyone watching. It is not as clear-cut as that though, as what looks good (especially to your partner) also influences how the dance feels. So looks and feel are inter-mingled.

Can you learn style if you ignore technique?Of course! The simplest style things you can add to your dance have nothing to do with technique: smiling / eye contact / fun / awareness of the music and musical interpretation will all give you style even if your technique is poor or non-existent (the French are masters in this art: the triumph of confidence over ability!)

Do you go to a style workshop to develop your own style, or copy someone else's? (Good luck to anyone who can copy Victor & Lydia!!)Initially to copy someone elseÕs style, but it is not a simple matter of dancing like V&L as on their style workshops they teach many different techniques and style points that you can pick and choose from to eventually build your own style based on your current level of ability, personal preference and even body shape!

The emphasis in Modern Jive is almost exclusively on doing moves. Contrast this to the emphasis in Ballroom dancing, where the emphasis is on technique, and Lindy (I'm told) & West Coast Swing, where it is on musical interpretation. So can Modern Jive style be defined as how well you make a complicated move look?I partially disagree on this point. While we do indeed teach over 500 moves, the emphasis is on getting complete beginners to dance on their first night, and from then on to get them to progress and enjoy themselves very quickly. The emphasis is on simplifying the moves to remove the technical and styles barriers which prevent so many people from even trying to dance!
It is easier to add technique / style once you have the enthusiasm / passion for dancing than the other way. Most people (Beginners) typically give up dance classes where they are taught techniques and style points that are aimed at competition level, from the first class! :(

I always think that Modern Jive feels better than it looks. I'm still trying to work out why.Well, that is important, how it feels should be the determining factor above all others. Dancing is a fun and very rewarding experience. What you share with your partner on the dance floor is unique and often magical.
However, saying it feels better than it looks is misleading. Modern Jive can and does look great. I have lost count of how many times beginners who have been learning only a few weeks said they had been to a wedding / party / function or other and ended up the centre of attention with rounds of applause after practising a few basic Ceroc moves... It is possible that your view is jaded by experience, the more you know about dancing, the more you expect!
I find nothing more rewarding than a new couple discovering the joys of a simple routine in Freestyle and grinning all the way, and yes, they look great.

Are there any Modern Jive couples you would stop dancing so you could watch?Many, as demonstrated recently at the Champs... I do not know all their names, but I have often stopped just to watch and be inspired.

I hope the above makes sense (despite the length of the post). All the questions you raise are really interesting and I would be interested in more views...

Franck.

[Franck]

Originally posted by DavidB
Most people just wanted to learn one move after another, and the flashier the better.This is true unfortunately (mostly men). It is a constant battle to remind the men that more is not necessarily better. In a rush to learn as many moves as possible, a lot of men will not learn any of them properly, taking the time to explore the many possibilities each move offers. Women on the whole agree that they would rather have fewer moves better lead than a string of moves with little leading / technique.
Flashier and intricate do not always cut it either. The right pause at the right time will do much more to impress / please your partner than the Òaccordion comb pull crab recurringÒ...
Originally posted by DavidB
But if you aspire to being an advanced dancer, you need to know more than moves. You need to understand how to dance, how to move, how to lead/follow etc. You need to understand the music. And you want it to look good. Style is all about how your dancing looks to other people.Agreed, though I do not like the term ÒadvancedÓ dancer. I reckon you never reach that stage, and if anyone feel they have, then they should look again. Dancing is a lifelong journey, and there is always more / better round the corner. Never rest on your laurels.
There is always something I want to improve / learn, and I know that Viktor and Lydiay work very hard at learning new techniques etc... That is what makes them such good dancers and teachers.
Originally posted by DavidB
I think style workshops are a very good idea. Having someone say "I think this looks good. This is how you do it", or "This doesn't look good, so don't do it" can save you a lot of time. You will never dance like the teacher, but they will never dance like you. And it is worth it - you are on the way to being an advanced dancer, not just another intermediate dancer who knows a lot of moves.I totally agree, Style workshops (any workshops in fact) are the best way to improve. The Style workshop I teach is based on the original Style workshop initially taught by Viktor and Lydia + some style points taught by Janie Cronin. I have adapted it and spent time devising extra exercises to teach basic footwork variations, and style points to add to the Beginners move.
My reasoning being that the only way to learn (add) new style techniques is to practise them on a move that you are already familiar (and confident) with. Style is not all footwork though, you should be stylish from the moment you ask your partner for a dance to the end of the track when you thank her.
A lot of the workshop is dedicated to making dancers aware of what they do and how they can improve simple things to make a big difference, without the need for drops / seducers and intricate move combinations.

I am currently working on new Style workshops which will be much more specific and targeted, as I have found that one general ÒStyleÓ Workshop had just too much material to fit in one day! The first one, will be a ÓSpins and turnsÒ workshop, which has to be one of the most asked about feature. I am hoping to offer this workshop in September.
I am also planning a Òfootwork and walksÒ workshop to follow...

I have a few more ideas after that, but if anyone has any further suggestions, do not hesitate!

As mentionned in another thread, I am also in the process of booking a guest teacher for a couple of really good ÒStyleÓ workshops, so watch this space!

Cheers,

Franck.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Franck
Can you learn style if you ignore technique?Of course! The simplest style things you can add to your dance have nothing to do with technique: smiling / eye contact / fun / awareness of the music and musical interpretation will all give you style even if your technique is poor or non-existent (the French are masters in this art: the triumph of confidence over ability!)
Originally posted by Franck
I am currently working on new Style workshops which will be much more specific and targeted, as I have found that one general ÒStyleÓ Workshop had just too much material to fit in one day! The first one, will be a ÓSpins and turnsÒ workshop, which has to be one of the most asked about feature. I am hoping to offer this workshop in September.
I am also planning a Òfootwork and walksÒ workshop to follow...
I think we have different ideas on what is technique and what is style - I would call your workshops 'technique workshops'. For me technique is what you have to do to dance. Style is anything you add onto that to give it your own personal look. You can have good technique and bad style, and visa versa.The difference is you can add or remove style, and it won't affect the way the dance feels. But if you add or remove technique, it will affect the dance.

Leading and following is technique. Spinning and turning is technique. Timing is technique. Body motion is technique. (By body motion I mean how you move your body around the floor, eg when stepping back)

But body action is style. (By body action, I mean anything from hip movement to body popping) The way you finish a spin is style. Musical interpretation is style. Using your arms is style. Smiling is style.

But I don't really care if you call it technique or style - you are teaching something that needs to be taught, and people will dance better as a result.


Originally posted by Franck
I do not like the term ÒadvancedÓ dancer.I like the term as something to aspire to. I also like to make a distinction between 'Advanced dancers' and 'advanced intermediates' or 'advanced jivers', who are intermediate dancers who know a few more moves. I have seen true advanced dancers in other styles. I don't think there is anyone I've seen doing Jive that can compare to these people, or even come close.

What annoys me is when people who do other styles start saying Modern Jive is not worth being considered, because no-one is at this standard. There is nothing about Modern Jive that prevents someone from getting to this level. It is just that no-one has really pushed the boundaries of what can be done.

For what it is worth, this is a list of who I would stop dancing for...

Lindy - Ryan & Jenny, Skye Humphries
Ballroom - Marcus & Karen Hilton
WCS - Kyle Redd & Sarah Van Drake, Robert Cordoba & Deborah Szeleky, Jordan Frisbee & Tatiana Mollman
Hustle - Arte Phillips, Angel Figueroa
Salsa - Salomon and Sandra Rivera
Cabaret - David Howland & Vivienne Ramsey, David & Leslie Elkin

David

[jiveoholic]

This has been one of the best threads on the subject I have read! I do hope Frank can find a way of archiving threads like this.

I was glad that Frank introduced the idea of the "feel". For me a good dance is one that "feels" good with my partner. Having said this, how she portrays her body, looks at me, uses her hands in a flourish makes is just perfect...and for those watching too.

The difference between style and technique has been addressed. What I would like to introduce is the idea that true style is that which differs from person to person but comes from that particular persons interpretation of the music. yes - the music.

I complain that I have no style but far too many moves. My girlfriend insisted last night that I "wiggle-danced" in front of her to show my (in)ability to "feel the music". I had to shut my eyes and the experience is not one I wish to repeat. However, to blues music I did survive the ordeal with some dignity.

I think that style is physological. It is the real artform. It is the expression of how the music and the dance are affecting you.

I would like to appload the idea of the "technique" workshops Frank is offering. I only wish I did not live in Basingstoke! I would love to attend. I have been trying to add exercises on technique at www.jiveoholic.org.uk. I quickly realised that all I could do is help people get out of their ruts and try difference ideas and decide which were for them and which were not, which worked and which did not.

[Gus]

Have to agree an excelenet thread ... with so many angles to it some bright chappie (or chappess) could write a whole paper about it.

Quick digression first,

I only wish I did not live in Basingstoke! I would love to attend. ... got to say with respect to many of the excellent dancers across the country ... got to say that anyone wanting to see real style has got to dance around the Southern circuit There is an embaressment of riches. Not all the styles would be your taste but I'm sure there is bound to be something to catch your eye.

Back to the main thread. I think teaching style is an extremely thing to convey. This requires skills that I would assocaite with profesional dance teachers. Its also a very subjective thing. Style is a function of many things including your build, body dynamics and what 'beat' you feel good with. I would love to know how 'profesional' dance teachers teach style because its something etremely difficuly to get across.

Re the people that David B mentioned as being good enough to stop and watch ... I'm envious of his range of dance styles to pick from.

My own list is short (and predictable) by compasrion;

Lindy: Andy and Rena (well, I'd watch Rena even if she was just crossing the room :yum: ) Ann and Graeme

Blues: Nigel and Nina

Modern Jive: Viktor and Lydia (as per Rena), Heather, Dan Slape (probably the most exiting new dancer on the scene), Roger and Ann

In my own region there's probably only half a dozen dancers that are really 'out there' ... BUT, theres a whole range of dancers who are fun to dance with .... and isn't that what most of all the fuss is about?

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
theres a whole range of dancers who are fun to dance with .... and isn't that what most of all the fuss is about? [/B]
My favourite partner is my wife (and I'm not just saying that to stop her beating me up).
I also like dancing with some of the really good ladies out there - eg Rena, Heather, Karmel, Sing Lim, Janie Cronin. (I've never danced with Lydia or Nina.) But I don't want to dance with the best dancers all night. You get very lazy - they look good no matter what you do. You don't have to lead well, because they are so good at improvising. And I don't want to ruin their night.

But I really like dancing with ladies that are just going from beginners to intermediate. They know enough to keep in time, and to follow a lead, but aren't desperately trying to recognise each move and remember what they are 'supposed' to do. It means that I have to do everything to the best of my abilities.

There is only one person who's opinion really counts in dancing - your partner. You can have the most abysmal style, but if he/she enjoys dancing with you - who cares?

David

[Franck]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
This has been one of the best threads on the subject I have read! I do hope Frank can find a way of archiving threads like this. At the moment, I have no plan to delete any of the threads, I have loads of hosting space, and should be able to keep them all available online for a while to come... While the threads might not appear on the main forum page view, you can use the search facility to seek out old threads...

Originally posted by jiveoholic
The difference between style and technique has been addressed. What I would like to introduce is the idea that true style is that which differs from person to person but comes from that particular persons interpretation of the music. yes - the music. The music indeed, interpretation of the music and ability to adapt your style to the many tracks played on the night make a huge difference.
I reckon that a lot of people who say they do not like a particular style of music, do so because they only feel comfortable (confident?) dancing to a particular style (be it Blues / pop / techno / etc...). I find I really enjoy dancing to many different types of music and my style varies greatly between tracks, but all of them deeply enjoyable and fun.

Franck.

[John S]

There's quite a good 2-page article in the Weekend section of The Times today, about the growth of social dance in the UK. Ceroc gets only the merest mention in passing, but the article contained a quote from Martha Graham that rang true with me and I think is worth repeating:

Great dancers are not great because of their technique, they are great because of their passion.

Obviously great dancers will have technique as well, but I reckon what makes them "great" is the passion that they have for the dance, and how they convey it to each other and to those watching.

[Ronde!]

Have to agree with that quote, I think passion's vital. I've seen beginners do the Octopus with heaps of style because they enjoy it, to the extent that intermediate dancers go up to them and ask "What was that move?"

Style begins as a physical demonstration the dancer's interaction with their partner, the audience, and the music - a smile, a hand, a pause. Confidence makes it look good. Passion magnifies it into something dazzling.

On analysis, I have two separate styles, a smooth competition style (make all the moves look easy and flowing) and an Funk/Urban/Dance style (high energy/extreme - but only to the audience, not my partner!).

Anyone else find they have more than one distinct "style"?

Live passionately,
Leo

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Ronde!
Anyone else find they have more than one distinct "style"?There are plenty of dancers that have different styles when they do different dances, but I can't think of many people who have more than one style of doing Modern Jive. (I used to think I did, but I was just doing the same moves, in the same way, with the same leads, etc to different music. I might interpret parts of the music differently, but overall I was dancing in my one style.)

I have tended to watch people a lot more since starting this thread. There tends to be 5 styles around in London:

Ceroc style - Big leads, bouncy movement, always fully extended, ladies always overturning. It is not quite staccatto, but there is an emphasis on each beat.

Smooth - Smaller leads, no bounce, and more variation in the distance. The movement is more continuous, with two or three steps flowing into each other

Lindy - Jive moves done with a Lindy style - eg posture, a twist-twist for the ladies

Latin - Lots of hip action, and the occasional bit of salsa, merangue or even tango thrown in. A lot more attitude.

Hip-hop/funk - More contemporary individual movement from the man and the lady.

Of course these are generalisations, and a few people have their own unique styles. There are teachers I know who are very good at explaining each of these styles. What I haven't seen yet is anyone explaining what stays the same, and what changes, between each style. That (to me) would be the start of developing a range of styles for individual dancers.

I haven't included 'passion', or 'enjoyment', or 'smiling', etc. These are important enough to be discussed separately from style or technique. But they have one big difference - they can't be taught. You can learn technique. You can learn style (ie incorporate parts of someone else's style into your own.) But no matter how good the teacher or the student - you can't be taught to have fun.

David

[TheTramp]

Hmmmmm.....

I don't know if I agree with that David. I'd like to think that my style changes depending on the music that's being played, and the person I'm dancing with. I can certainly identify with most of the styles that you've listed to a greater (hip hop/funk) or lesser (lindy) degree.

I'm sure that there are any number of people who do the same.

Steve

[DavidB]

This was something I heard at the weekend. They were showing some ballroom dancing on TV. It was a Latin competition, and the comentator was saying that each dance should have a distinct style. Unfortunately it looked like each couple was actually dancing the same style, just at different speeds. If you turned the sound off, you couldn't guess what sort of music was playing unless you knew the steps.

I think this is very much the same in Jive. If you played a 'club' track, then a latin track, then a swing track, you would be pushed to tell any difference in the way people dance. It might feel different if you are actually dancing with them, but it doesn't look different.

The best way I can describe it is interpretation of the type of music, but not the individual song. There are people who have very distinctive styles that really suit particular types of music. So there is obviously room in Jive for this sort of interpretation. But no-one seems to have fundamentally different styles depending on the music. We all seem to have our one personal style, and can only make slight changes to it.

Do people try to develop separate styles? Or is it more useful to incorporate elements of other styles into your own single personal one.

David

[TheTramp]

Sorry David

Just re-read my post, and I think I sounded harsher than I wanted to.

I agree that if you look at many people dancing jive, you probably could substitute any style of track which runs at the same speed, and their dancing wouldn't change. (But as long as they are having fun, who cares).

But I think that there are a lot of decent dancers of jive who will change their style depending on the music being played too. Maybe I'm just an optimist though. There's nothing I like more than dancing to a nice latin type song, and trying to wiggle my hips more, and put in some salsa style, followed up by a fastish hip hop type track, the moving on to some smooth bluesy music. Dancing with the same style to every track would get boring (for me) after a very short space of time

Steve

[kingo]

For me, style is about the shape dancers make.
If one is clubbing it, (and I don't often) then there are some (small) shapes and moves that are safe. i.e they look OK on almost everyone so long as they are done broadly right and in time to the music.
Once you move out of these safe moves into bigger more dramatic moves there is an ever decreasing margin between looking fantastic and looking plain silly. In street locking, the difference between looking like a super cool dude and Mr Bean in electrick shock may be something as small as a slight hunch in the back or a little lean, and both the good and bad feel OK. You won't know how well you are doing unless you look in a mirror or ask people.

I think to a much lesser extent, the same is true for Ceroc. All the moves look great when done adequately by anyone. If you do something slightly different to the accepted norm then that stands out as 'your stlye' - be it good , bad or mixed.
By example, I used to have great difficulty with the train move- which I enjoyed dancing but knew didn't look particularly good when I did it. In a workshop a teacher took me through several footwork options until one worked for me. I don't think this could have been done in a lesson format - it needed some one to say 'noooo not like that, better , OK , Awful, ah now that works - do that again but this time try a little ..'

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gus
I would love to know how 'profesional' dance teachers teach style because its something etremely difficuly to get across.


My mum's a ballet mistress and I also used to teach classical ballet.

The "style" she and other teachers I know in her area (Nottm) use what Chris would all "kinetic imagery" - putting a feeling/sensation into words and the convey it with movement. For example "opening a gate" when opening the arm, "stroke the ceiling/floor with your fingertips/toes". These words mean something different to each person you teach and so their interpretation and style will reflect that. I suppose the technique that enables a teacher/coach/choreographer to convey this "style" is finding the right words to inspire the pupil.

[Bill]

In terms of style.........yep the first 'problem' is defining the term then trying to define your own style.

I've said a number of times that the two men who have influenced me most are Viktor and Nigel - mainly because I like the way they dance and becuase I've been to several of their workshops. They have different styles though but both spend some time on style especially the last couple of workshops of Viktor's I've been to. Adam spent time on style and interpretation as well the last time he was up here.

I agree entirely with the comments about good dancers making simple moves look good and with the number of men who want to do lots of 'flashy' moves. I think the latter is true becuase the big moves get attention and are often what gets dancers noticed at competitions whereas newer men will probably not recognise a more subtle or 'quiet' style.

A relative beginner might not notice Viktor, DavidB, our own Gilbert on a packed floor but they will notice men who like drops and more 'flashy' moves. Steve does a lot of drops and likes aerials and executes them very well and is very safe so he and other similar dancers are much more likely to be noticed. We have different styles and the great thing is they can all be wonderful but new men will see the bigger moves and want to emulate them despite the fact that Lorna and Lisa constantly tell men that women would much prefer simple moves done well than lots of complicated moves (done well or badly).

I don't know enough dancers to say who apart from the regular nominees I'd stop to watch but of those I have seen the only ones I'd really stop dancing to look at would be N & N, V & L ( or V and a n other), David & Lily and up here in Scotland young James & Mel.

Still haven't really answered the question on what is style. It's what I like and want to aspire to have :D :sick: :rolleyes:

[Yogi_Bear]

What an interesting thread. As usual, most of what I might have written is already out there. I find myself nodding in agreement with virtually all that David B has contributed here, and like him I seem to spend a lot more time watching than dancing at times, whether it is to look at how well or indeed how badly people are interpreting the music and wheter their style seems right. The following really rings true as well:
----------------
DavidB wrote:

But I don't want to dance with the best dancers all night. You get very lazy - they look good no matter what you do. You don't have to lead well, because they are so good at improvising. And I don't want to ruin their night.

But I really like dancing with ladies that are just going from beginners to intermediate. They know enough to keep in time, and to follow a lead, but aren't desperately trying to recognise each move and remember what they are 'supposed' to do. It means that I have to do everything to the best of my abilities.

There is only one person who's opinion really counts in dancing - your partner. You can have the most abysmal style, but if he/she enjoys dancing with you - who cares?
------------------
I like to approach each dance as the unique experience that it is - I will never dance the same moves, to that music, in these circumstances, with the same partner again - there lies the essence. Interpretation of the music, the confidence to improvise, connecting with your partner - these are the basics.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB
Do you go to a style workshop to develop your own style, or copy someone else's? (Good luck to anyone who can copy Victor & Lydia!!)


I used to play a game years ago where I would watch someone and then from their style workout who their teacher was. People that had been doing viktor's classes were the easiest to pick.

Almost none of these people had been doing style classes. They just went along to regular move based classes. I guess I could never have played my game if people didn't automatically learn style from their teachers.

That said I think there is a huge lack of learning opportunities for style for women. Not like salsa where there are tons of female style classes.

[LilyB]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
. . . That said I think there is a huge lack of learning opportunities for style for women. Not like salsa where there are tons of female style classes. I did offer (on another thread) to teach a style class for ladies but I'm afraid it has proven rather difficult for me to arrange one as I have too much on my plate at the moment. I will offer to teach one at the next weekend events I am booked on, ie. Stompin' in Brighton, Rock Bottoms in Brighton (April), and possibly at Camber (April), but all that would depend on whether space is available for such a specialist workshop and also whether there is demand for it. Organisers have to bear in mind that such workshops would be for ladies only and that many ladies are not bothered about learning style. On the plus side, however, it would be an innovation - having a ladies' style class for modern jive - and also I am offering my services for free! :wink: (as I will already be teaching at those events)

LilyB

[Will]

Originally posted by LilyB
I have too much on my plate at the moment.
LilyB
Isn't that what David has been saying for months. :rofl:

[Yogi_Bear]

Thanks to LilyB for suggesting a ladies' modern jive styling class at Camber. Maybe DavidB could hold one for men at the same time? Not that I would wish that to be at the expense of a WCS class, of cocurse! :)

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB

Ceroc style - Big leads, bouncy movement, always fully extended, ladies always overturning. It is not quite staccatto, but there is an emphasis on each beat.


So true everything you've said. So needs to be rectified too.
A lot of people only go to or do ceroc at ceroc and therefore can't know where they are going wrong because they have no basis for comparison. Its all they know.

Level heads, no bouncing, closer to each other, and no overturning past the frame position except for special occasions.

Frame. DaveB has a trick for fixing the frame problem called 'flashlighting'. You pretend you both have a flashlight on your chests, and you only do any leading when both of your flashlights are pointed directly at each other. I know it sounds like it should be out there with crystal gazing, phrenology and tea leaf reading. I can't even begin to point out why it shouldn't work. But when he told me and I tried it, the very next time I went dancing someone came up to me and commented how effectively I was using a frame and asked me how learned to dance like that!

Staccato motion. So true, and something you hear so rarely commented on. But how can you know, unless you've done some other types of dancing and can see what works better?

The problem is that ceroc teaches moves via positions not movement or motion. They teach moves by breaking down a move into 8 positions. And they stop at every count to show the position that people should be in. Students therefore stop at each count when dancing in order to mimic the teacher. And the teachers do it so often it becomes engrained into their dancing that they do it even when they are not teaching, they have to put in the pause on every count regardless of what the music is doing. This just the way the ceroc teaches, and thus the main influence on the UK jive/ceroc market.

The solution is for teachers to realise what they are doing and that there is a distinction between how to initially explain a move and how to dance a move. And to learn to do both and demonstrate both and demonste the distinction.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by DavidB
I have seen true advanced dancers in other styles. I don't think there is anyone I've seen doing Jive that can compare to these people, or even come close.

What annoys me is when people who do other styles start saying Modern Jive is not worth being considered, because no-one is at this standard. There is nothing about Modern Jive that prevents someone from getting to this level.

OK agreed on all that, and I hear the same criticisms of MJ. But why is modern jive never taken to that standard? Sure people do it for fun, but people do other types of dancing for fun too. Few people get into it the way they get into other types of dancing.

I know that other styles you get people who go dancing every night of the week but this is very rare in ceroc. Why? Is it because ceroc has few large big venues, spaced far apart, instead of lots of little ones everywhere, therefore preventing people from conveniently dancing every night of the week? Do the large classes mean people learn to slowly? Is it the fact freestyles finish 10:30/11 instead of 3am like many salsa clubs thus giving you a fifth the dance time per night? Or is it because of the way in which ceroc is taught? I can't believe that people who go to ceroc are inherently less talented than people who do other types of dancing, or is this true?

Is there something inherent in the style/timing that prevents modern jive being done really well?

I wonder which if these factors real things, and which are red herrings. What are other people's experiences?

[Rachel]

Originally posted by LilyB
I did offer (on another thread) to teach a style class for ladies but I'm afraid it has proven rather difficult for me to arrange one as I have too much on my plate at the moment. I will offer to teach one at the next weekend events I am booked on, ie. Stompin' in Brighton, Rock Bottoms in Brighton (April), and possibly at Camber (April), but all that would depend on whether space is available for such a specialist workshop and also whether there is demand for it. ... LilyB
Pleeease do, Lily. I'll be the first one queuing up for it!
Rachel

[Sonic]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
OK agreed on all that, and I hear the same criticisms of MJ. But why is modern jive never taken to that standard? Sure people do it for fun, but people do other types of dancing for fun too. Few people get into it the way they get into other types of dancing.

I know that other styles you get people who go dancing every night of the week but this is very rare in ceroc. Why? Is it because ceroc has few large big venues, spaced far apart, instead of lots of little ones everywhere, therefore preventing people from conveniently dancing every night of the week? Do the large classes mean people learn to slowly? Is it the fact freestyles finish 10:30/11 instead of 3am like many salsa clubs thus giving you a fifth the dance time per night? Or is it because of the way in which ceroc is taught? I can't believe that people who go to ceroc are inherently less talented than people who do other types of dancing, or is this true?

Is there something inherent in the style/timing that prevents modern jive being done really well?

I wonder which if these factors real things, and which are red herrings. What are other people's experiences?

My observations on this (based on a (limited) knowledge/experience of ballet and ballroom, I don't know about salsa):

1. The vast majority of MJers take up dancing far too late in life to be able to attain the standards achieved in other dance styles. My mother showed me a video of a ballroom dancing troupe from China and their dance technique was way beyond what most MJers will ever achieve. The scary thing was that they were about 12 years old!

2. MJ (in the UK) does not have set standards, syllabuses or exams. It is marketed to the masses as an easy all inclusive dance that anyone can do because all the difficult/tedious bits have been taken out. Other dance disciplines make no concessions to the masses: either you can do, say, a pirouette, or you can't. They take you through increasingly demanding exams until you realise your limits and drop out. Only the really talented progress.

So I think MJ doesn't have the same standard of dancer as ballet/ballroom because (1) it's a business where the most successful model appears to be targetting adults between late 20s and early 50s (rather than kids); and (2) its inclusivity means that bad dancers won't be weeded out, and good dancers aren't pushed.

Having said all this, I don't think it should be any other way, it's what makes MJ fun.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by Sonic
I don't think it should be any other way, it's what makes MJ fun.

Hurrah, I am not alone.

Ballroom Jive and 10 step target stylists, the young, and the medal seekers. I'd bet that many, perhaps even most reading this forum would not know where they could learn Ballroom jive, or what 10 step is. Some of my dance heros at the Le Jive championships came to MJ from Ballroom Jive, and it showed in their quality. I know MJ'ers that have been ballet trained, and that shows too.

I am for keeping MJ as it is, and let them that wants more seek it elsewhere, and bring it back with them. Then we can enjoy dancing and enjoy watching, the best of both worlds.

[jiveoholic]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Is there something inherent in the style/timing that prevents modern jive being done really well?


I sometimes think that Modern Jive is a very Darwinian experience. Because only the hands are taught, not the feet or the body, there is a great deal of lattitude in style and technque between dancers. If I dance with 10 other equally competent ladies, I can be assured that I wil dance with one brialliantly, will just have one dance and run away with one, and have a range of enjoyable performances with the rest. It seems to me that my style will click with one and not with another. Does she bop up or down on the beat or does she wiggle side to side?

So I think that a guy and a gal could be both really advanced and yet not dance well with each other.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by jiveoholic
Because only the hands are taught, not the feet or the body, there is a great deal of lattitude in style and technque between dancers.
Much of the time not even the hands are taught. And I find it more and more astounding as I discover how incredibly easy the basics are to teach.

As a taxi, I dance a lot with beginners, and have taken a few of the very simplest elements of lead/follow, shamelessly plagiarised from some of the people who do teach this sort of thing - far better and to a much higher level than I am capable or qualified - and distilled them into one track's worth of dancing/teaching.

Usually it is possible (70% or more of brand new beginners), easily within one track, although subsequent repetition obviously helps, to turn a spaghetti-armed (and hence confused and frustrated) beginner into an actual follower who starts to relax and enjoy.

Why doesn't Ceroc teach it?

Chris

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Why doesn't Ceroc teach it? Ceroc do teach it, though not so much from the stage during the class as that kind of thing really benefit from direct contact (as you do in the Taxi class).
The Taxi-dancers revision class should be about developing simple skills, like basic lead / follow, turns and spins, postures and music / beat awareness... Maybe not consistently across the UK, but there nonetheless!

Over the last couple of years, I have added more and more leading / following and improvisation to my Beginners classes, and while it has improved the level of the dancers attending, it hasn't helped (hindered?) the retention rate...

The sort of stuff you mention really does require direct feedback. But congratulations on leading the way amongst taxi-dancers...
Ceroc HQ, with the help of teachers / franchisees are working on the format content of the revision classes and the role of taxi-dancers... There is so much to work on, your views / feedback and ideas would be most welcome!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
though not so much from the stage during the class
Mistake #1, IMHO.

A two minute exercise to establish resistance at the beginning of every class (and the intermediates) would subtract nothing from the teaching of the routine, but it would start to sow seeds.

Chris

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
A two minute exercise to establish resistance at the beginning of every class (and the intermediates) would subtract nothing from the teaching of the routine, but it would start to sow seeds. Well you hadn't specified anything in particular, but taking your example, I disagree, you can spend 2 minutes doing a bit of resistance work (this is already being done as part of the new pre class warm-up exercises at most Ceroc classes) and it might help a few, but most Beginners will do it wrong and not realise they are, at least until they are taken aside individually later on, by a teacher or taxi-dancer.
I have taught many workshops and even with the limited numbers, and using many different techniques / exercizes and games, you still need to go through it with every Beginner individually for them to get it...
I'm not saying it's a bad idea, because I agree it is desirable, and as I said, currently being introduced nationally, but much harder than you're making out!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
Well you hadn't specified anything in particular, but taking your example, I disagree
I didn't say it would be a miracle, I said it would sow seeds. Most people don't go to workshops, or at least very infrequently, and I haven't seen any of these pre-class warm ups anywhere in Ceroc - they sound an excellent idea, maybe Scotland is way ahead of us southerners?

I like your sig, BTW :devil:

Chris

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I like your sig, BTW :devil: oohhh cutting :wink:

I reckon we agree on the principles, though our experiences differ.
Scotland is not at the cutting edge on that one, we're yet to offer warm-up sessions before the class, though it is coming.

I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing with me that the best place for teaching leading / following and tension etc... is during the revision class with the Taxi-dancers? Sowing the seed is all very well, but we need the care and attention of a gardener to make it grow!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
I'm not sure whether you're disagreeing with me that the best place for teaching leading / following and tension etc... is during the revision class with the Taxi-dancers? Sowing the seed is all very well, but we need the care and attention of a gardener to make it grow!
We certainly don't disagree about this.

One to one is even better, of course. I don't think it can be done in three minutes in any kind of class.

Chris

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Franck

Scotland is not at the cutting edge on that one, we're yet to offer warm-up sessions before the class, though it is coming.


Have I said yet that NZ's been doing that for 10 years....
Trying to not hit the submit button, trying, trying, trying....

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Franck
Scotland is not at the cutting edge

Why not?

It won't cost anything to try it. Do you really have to wait for someone else to tell you to do it?

J :what:

PS Franck, this isn't a personal attack, I just have a "F*** it and give it a go" attitude at the moment (with notable exceptions of course! :wink: )

[Chris]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Have I said yet that ....
Yeah, you're braver than me :rofl:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jayne
Why not?

It won't cost anything to try it. Do you really have to wait for someone else to tell you to do it? Absolutely, not waiting on anyone in particular, but so many new things have been introduced recently, and so much more to do yet :nice: so little time...

The warm-up class is something I needed convinced over... I'm yet to be totally sold on it.
I have however heard many good and positive things about it, so I'm willing to introduce it in Scotland. I'l probably start with my own classes before selling it to all the other teachers.

I'd love to hear from anyone who has seen the warm-ups in a class!

[Lory]

Originally posted by JamesGeary

A lot of people only go to or do ceroc at ceroc and therefore can't know where they are going wrong because they have no basis for comparison. Its all they know.

Level heads, no bouncing, closer to each other, and no overturning past the frame position except for special occasions.


I don't know where to start......

I really haven't got a clue what style I've got, if its good, bad or plain ugly (I daren't take a video, I may never dance again)
:rolleyes: one thing I do know for sure is, I definitely change with different partners and different types of music,

Last night for example, I danced for the first time, with a guy who was primarily Lindy, I ended up bouncing all over the place, we were skipping round and doing strange bobbing up and down weight changes from one foot to the other (I'd like to see how anyone could do anything else, other than follow 'his style')

then sometimes I'll dance with someone to a Latin style track, they may have a very smooth style, with a very level head and I'll try to mimic what he's doing

The trouble is, no one ever criticises, either positively or negatively. :confused: I'd appreciate a little

Maybe if I had a regular partner it would be different?


I find the better lead I have (someone I feel in tune with) the easier it is to play with my style, If I have to concentrate to much on the lead (trying to interpret what moves they are wanting to achieve and not wanting to let them down) I loose the ability to put much style in! And that's not much fun!:sad:

On the other hand, I've danced with some men that are 'such weak leads' that I have a ball, I just do what ever I like, mostly they run a mile after and never ask me again but some must apparently like it, as they keep coming back for more!

:rofl:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jayne
Why not?

It won't cost anything to try it. Do you really have to wait for someone else to tell you to do it?


Confucious he say judge method by its results.

Ceroc Scotland: 18 months ago, loads of enthusiasm, very few advanced dancers. Now - loads of enthusiasm, dozen or so advanced dancers, LOADS of good intermediates. Think whatever Ceroc, Boogie Nights etc have done a superb job. I WISH our efforts in the North West had been as succesfull!

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
I'd love to hear from anyone who has seen the warm-ups in a class! Well Amir does them at Hipsters. Standard sort of gentle coordination and stretching stuff to a clubby type track.

He finishes with a spinning exercise...

- step back left, forward left, spin on left, finish feet together and step back left.
- step back right, forward right, spin on right, finish feet together and step back right.

I've found them so useful that I've continued to practise them at home, most days for a couple of minutes.

Still find spinning very difficult (well, more than one, anyway), but I get less dizzy and sometimes I don't fall over. I think they're excellent exercises - for guys as well as gals.

Chris

[Jayne]

I also try to copy my partner's style and in my head I achieve it (what it actually looks like, I've no idea!!). My exception is bouncing. I don't *do* bouncing.

As for a weak lead - I'm afraid I'm the other end of the spectrum to you. If he doesn't lead I don't do anything - the exception here being if he is an absolute beginner (or begginer for many people on this forum :devil: ).

James - overturning is a bad thing. Explain? I'm kinda focussing on this following stuff at the moment so I'm genuinely interested. :nice:

J :nice:

[Lory]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Still find spinning very difficult
NO WAY! Who was that man I was dancing with last night who looked remarkably like you, even answered to the name of Chris!

[Lory]

Originally posted by Jayne
My exception is bouncing. I don't *do* bouncing.

He has his arm FIRMLY round my waist and was forceably hitching me up and down....:what: :rofl:

I honestly didn't have a choice!

Oh dear, I'm making him sound like an ogre but he was quite good fun really!:nice:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Lory
NO WAY! Who was that man I was dancing with last night who looked remarkably like you, even answered to the name of Chris!
I said I found it very difficult, not that I couldn't do it :D

I've only just got the hang of the RH Archie :rolleyes: :tears:

Chris

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Lory
but some must apparently like it, as they keep coming back for more!

:rofl:
Must be me :rofl:

C U L8R
:hug:

[Franck]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I've only just got the hang of the RH Archie :rolleyes: :tears: Brilliant move that, and I love it...

I also love teaching it as it always brings the men down a peg or two... Perfect when your class is getting over-confident :wink: :devil:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Franck
Brilliant move that, and I love it...

I also love teaching it as it always brings the men down a peg or two... Perfect when your class is getting over-confident :wink: :devil:
I think the main reason it's taken me so long is that it's almost unpractisable without a regular and patient partner.

Done badly, (he says, speaking from experience) it's one of the most embarrassing (non-aerial) moves possible. It needs the guy to be 100% committed to doing it, he can't turn it into anything else if it goes wrong, and if he loses his balance, there's a good chance of either giving the girl's arm a yank, which, as you know, I'm dead against, or falling over, which looks uncool, which I'm also dead against :blush:

So I've tended to fight shy of it.

Nigel simplified it a lot for me by teaching the lady's return part of it as preceding the guy's archie by just a moment. This allowed me to start practising it and not fall over, which led to the beginning of being able to do what I'd describe as the Viktor timing (if not the Viktor style). At least I can practise it as much as I like now...

Chris

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by ChrisA

I've only just got the hang of the RH Archie :rolleyes: :tears:

Chris

now THAT sounds an interesting move :rolleyes:

[spindr]

Originally posted by Franck
Brilliant move that, and I love it...

I also love teaching it as it always brings the men down a peg or two... Perfect when your class is getting over-confident :wink: :devil:

Hmmm, my favourite is what I call a "Spanish inquisition" -- lead a return and keep the lead going into a smooth non-change of places reverse Archie spin -- can be swapped for *any* left-to-right handed return. And of course no one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Perfect, for when your partner's lost concentration and is staring into the distance admiring a pair of jeans -- or their contents :)

SpinDr.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Well Amir does them at Hipsters. Standard sort of gentle coordination and stretching stuff to a clubby type track.

He finishes with a spinning exercise...

- step back left, forward left, spin on left, finish feet together and step back left.
- step back right, forward right, spin on right, finish feet together and step back right.


This is one of the NZ warm ups.

You could say all ceroc/mj moves are either guy turns, girl turns or both turn, with varying handholds in between. Thats pretty much it. So thats the main thing you want to get right.

So you get taught how to turn either direction and step back, which is the basic action in all the moves really. It is part of the warm up so becomes a habit for people and sorts out their foot work, as a habit, and they don't have to think about it during the class.

[Emma]

Originally posted by spindr
Perfect, for when your partner's lost concentration and is staring into the distance admiring a pair of jeans -- or their contents :) :rofl:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Jayne

James - overturning is a bad thing. Explain? I'm kinda focussing on this following stuff at the moment so I'm genuinely interested. :nice:


Sure. Its style, so people will argue about it until kingdom come. And it comes down to preference.

Every other partner dance style I can think of, latin ballroom, salsa, west coast swing, lambada all consistently look much better than ceroc/mj when done by someone fairly skilled. I also notice that they all return to a facing each other square on position much more regularly.

Why do all of the 'professional' dance styles return to a square on position. I don't know. But, if you turn a girl and she winds her self up like a spring then the only thing she can do is unwind, the leader can't choose between an unwind and a forward together or backwards away from each other or travel together motion one way or the other. That might be part of it, you go from 5 options to 1 option. Which means less control and choice for the leader.

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Franck
The warm-up class is something I needed convinced over... I'm yet to be totally sold on it.
...
I'd love to hear from anyone who has seen the warm-ups in a class!

I've done heaps. And in NZ surveys found that people who did warms ups before class almost all wanted to continue with warm ups before class.

Think about anytime you go dancing. You're uncoordinated and cold for the first few dances and then you get into the groove and enjoy yourself.

Having a warm up means you get over the cold uncordinated thing before you start the dancing. By the time you get to dancing with someone at the start of the class you feel more natural and less self-conscious, and hopefully more relaxed. If the warmup also improves your technique and flexibility then thats just an additional bonus

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
Think about anytime you go dancing. You're uncoordinated and cold for the first few dances and then you get into the groove and enjoy yourself.

Having a warm up means you get over the cold uncordinated thing before you start the dancing. By the time you get to dancing with someone at the start of the class you feel more natural and less self-conscious, and hopefully more relaxed. If the warmup also improves your technique and flexibility then thats just an additional bonus I'm not sold on warm-ups either. If they are just used as warm-ups.

What (I think) happens with warm-ups. Is that you do them. And get nice and warm. And then stand watching the stage mostly, with very little movement, and just get cold. Certainly at the start of the beginner class, when the teacher has to explain all the neccessaries (grip, step back, men leading etc.). I think that probably is worse than not warming up in the first place (cold, then warm, then cold, then warm etc).

However, I'm for the warm-up, if it includes things like spinning techniques, lead/follow exercises, frame and posture tips, weight changing/balance exercises......that sort of thing.

Steve

[Jayne]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
<snip>
OK I'll have a go at not overturning tonight and see if it makes any difference (although I've been doing it for so long now I don't know how good I'll be at "undoing" it)

Thanks James!

J :cheers:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jayne
OK I'll have a go at not overturning tonight and see if it makes any difference (although I've been doing it for so long now I don't know how good I'll be at "undoing" it)

I can assure you there's very little, if even anything, to undo.

Chris

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
And in NZ surveys found that people who did warms ups before class almost all wanted to continue with warm ups before class.Surveys will prove almost anything that the writer of the survey (and then the people carrying out the survey) want it to prove. I'm not saying it's not what people want, but it's not a fail-safe way.

For example:
Q1. Do you think that we should carry on with the excellent warm-ups, that ensure that before you start the class, your muscles are stretched, thus helping to prevents any pulled or strained muscles.

Q1. We're thinking of doing away with the warm-up, because we don't feel that it's particularly helpful, and we can use the time saved by not doing it, to concentrate on some style and technique tips. What do you think?

It's not a perfect science. But you can see that both sentences are likely to cause different answers.

There's a much better example of this in a Yes Prime Minister sketch, about whether or not National Service should be brought in. But I can't find it online, and I'm not typing it all out. DS, where are you?! :D

Steve

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by ChrisA
I can assure you there's very little, if even anything, to undo.
Are you wearing the velco trousers again tonight then Chris???

Steve

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Are you wearing the velcro trousers again tonight then Chris???

I thought I might. Worn inside out, they don't half help keep your legs together when spinning.

:what: :really:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Why doesn't Ceroc teach it?
Chris It does!
at least where I dance. Not every beginners lesson, but in each lesson different bits of style, technique, etiquette and safe dancing are taught. All of it in every lesson would overwhelm most beginners.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
It does!
at least where I dance.
Hurrah !!

Let's hope it spreads.

Chris

[bigdjiver]

We have started doing warm-ups before the beginners class. I think that the class itself is gentle enough to be used as a natural warm up in itself.

One of the things I hated about being a beginner at Lindy, Salsa and Line dancing was being out of step in the footwork warm ups. Now I see the beginner class going through the same process. At the moment they are all going through the same process and are all over the place. Given a silent video it might be difficult to say who is in step. In a few weeks time I expect to see red-faced newbies struggling with the exercises, and not returning. I do not think they need any more strain put upon them.

Oddly, I thought, the exercises were being done to a Salsa track ?

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by bigdjiver
We have started doing warm-ups before the beginners class. I think that the class itself is gentle enough to be used as a natural warm up in itself.Yeah. Have to agree. If it's just a 'warm-up' thing.

What is there, in a beginner class, that you actually have to warm up for exactly??

In fact, to take it one stage further, depending on what exactly the 'warm-up' is. I'd hazard a guess, that you should probably do the beginners class, to warm up for doing the warm-up. Since I imagine that the warm-up will be more strenuous than (at least) the start of the beginners class... :rolleyes:

Steve

[Jon]

Originally posted by Franck
Brilliant move that, and I love it...

I also love teaching it as it always brings the men down a peg or two... Perfect when your class is getting over-confident :wink: :devil:

Once they've mastered that try the left handed archie spin on them, that'll get em :wink:

Or how about a tripple archie spin :D

[Dan Hudson]

Originally posted by Jon
Once they've mastered that try the left handed archie spin on them, that'll get em :wink:

Or how about a tripple archie spin :D

And how do you suggest we bring YOU down a peg or two Jon??
Me thinks you need it:D

And BTW have never seen you pull off a triple archie:devil: :what:

perhaps its because you have been practising as a blues queen!!:D

[Jon]

You've been quiet on the forum Dan then you come out with all this abuse.

You should know by now I can't be bought down a peg. :wink:

I rarely do tripple archie spins and only do them with ladies that can follow them.

And do I detect a hint of envy in that I can do blues. I've seen you try.... :D :rofl::rofl:

[bobgadjet]

Seems the weather is taking it's toll :)
Some people are too afraid of it to "go outside" ! ! !

:rolleyes:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Surveys will prove almost anything that the writer of the survey (and then the people carrying out the survey) want it to prove. I'm not saying it's not what people want, but it's not a fail-safe way.


I don't think thats relevant. The writer of the survey, who carried it out, wanted to find out what their customers wanted so they could more closely tailor what they were offering to what their customers wanted.

This isn't a tobacco company sponsoring research into the effects of tobacco on lungs. This is someone trying to find out what people like or dislike about their classes. That means non-biased questions.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
~ The writer of the survey, who carried it out, wanted to find out what their customers wanted so they could more closely tailor what they were offering to what their customers wanted.

~ This is someone trying to find out what people like or dislike about their classes. That means non-biased questions.

It also requires a non-biased sample of the customers, much more difficult to achieve. People who like the status quo are more likely to be attending. Most people are reluctant to complain, or be seen as negative, and will agree with "what is", or not bother to register disaproval if it is not a significant issue. On the othewr side of the coin people who like things the way they are often do not bother to say so. It is the ones that really want change that are vociferous.

Salsa, Lindy and Line Dancing all had me tripping over my feet, and feeling out of it, whilst the vast majority of the class were doing it seemingly easily. If MJ had me tripping over my feet in the warm-up too, all other things being equal, I would probably be doing Salsa instead. In fact I had learned to jive by just watching other people and trying it myself before I came to MJ. It was still a daunting learning curve.

[michael]

After a mere seven months doing ceroc i am becoming bored, restless and irritated all at once.

I hear regulars talking of either going to or already at other dance styles. Often that means ceroc have some or half that persons income going to another competitor. At a recent dance night unusually for me, i sat down and watched others for inspiration. All i could see was dancers going back and forward in the same old boring way and nothing there to inspire me except Dave H and Brady dancing extremely well together and managing to get the wow factor.

That aside it would appear that after a short while for some, or a couple of years for others we get bored and want change. When starting off as a complete beginner there is overload with loads to do and learn. I hardly feel we need to worry on the beginner score. But why must we have to look elsewhere for inspiration or that something extra. More to the point why do we feel we have to knock something else that is introduced or given attention. We get a video on Dips and Drops followed by all the negative talk particularly the danger aspect. I go to three different venues and the vast majority of accidents i have seen are caused by moving back and forward etc either standing on heels or worse, elbows in the face (seeing it more often recently). Down South you have Mikeys strictly sinful classes bringing something new followed by negative talk. We get New Zealand aspects followed by more negatives. We get moves from down under followed by negative talk of their lack of musicality or whatever. Then we get this topic!!!!

Why cant ceroc incorporate more salso, tango, hip hop and west coast aspects into existing ceroc moves. Why not incorporate anything that brings style and movement that would enhance modern jive and make it more interesting and exciting!!!

One other important aspect is looking after ALL the dancers and keeping their interest in ceroc at a high level. I hear Simon White has now moved to Ceroc. I would like to thank him for producing his monthly video of previous intermeddiate classes on the web for all to see. I JUST WISH CEROC WOULD D0 THE SAME BIG TIME. BE MORE PRO-ACTIVE AND PRODUCE HUNDREDS OF CLIPS OF VARIOUS MOVES FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ON A WEB SITE FOR US ALL TO SEE. No excuses please, Ceroc would be more likely to GAIN MORE BUSINESS AND allow those who dont want to wait for a class to see a move they may or may not like. It may not produce better dancers since the moves have to be done properly, but it would certainly stop us guys that get fed up with the same boring moves to seek out new ones WHEN WE WANT TO and then go to the classes and monthly dances in a positive and exciting mood or whatever.

Sure workshops are there to do that and more and if you are interested and can afford the TIME AS WELL AS THE MONEY then fine. Those that don't go (a lot of cerocers) can at least sit in the comfort of their own home and watch the various dance class clips. They will benefit from doing so and so will ceroc. Taking it a stage further why not select those known for their ceroc style to do clips of their classes in the way they do the moves and others with different styles likewise. Then it may stop many of the better dancers moving elswhere for inspiration or ideas. CEROC is great fun for beginners because they can progress at pace and the more often they go the quicker the progress. Some people are happy to do the same old moves for years on end, others are not.

After a while some of us need access to more moves. Un-usual ones, standard ones we forget, simple ones we overlook, stylish ones we didnt know existed and really difficult ones to challange us. SO WHY NOT GET THEM ALL ON VIDEO and look to the longer term benefits it may well bring to Ceroc. In doing so this thread may not be necessary!!!!

Sorry for the long post but it has been a while since last one:blush:

PS Sheena and Linda must surely be re-named "THE LUNATIC CREW" What with heavy snow forecast on Tuesday past, you would have thought they would have passed on Jumping Jacks opening night. I mean Dundee to Glasgow!!! and back. DIE HARDS INDEED WELL DONE :hug:

[Gary]

Originally posted by michael
After a mere seven months doing ceroc i am becoming bored, restless and irritated all at once.

...

That aside it would appear that after a short while for some, or a couple of years for others we get bored and want change.


I don't know if it's that I'm a dull person who doesn't get bored easily, or if there's a great MJ scene in Sydney, but I've been going for three years (about three times a week for the last year) and am not even close to getting bored.

I admit to having tried one Lindy class, but that's more due to none-too-subtle pressure from some Lindy'ers I know than due to boredom.

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by michael
After a mere seven months doing ceroc i am becoming bored, restless and irritated all at once.

I hear regulars talking of either going to or already at other dance styles. ~ it would appear that after a short while for some, or a couple of years for others we get bored and want change. ~

Is the venue emptying? Are the spaces obvious? Or is Ceroc continuing to do what it has done so successfully for so long, introduce people to MJ and give them some great nights out. It is called focus.

More to the point why do we feel we have to knock something else that is introduced or given attention. We get a video on Dips and Drops followed by all the negative talk particularly the danger aspect. I go to three different venues and the vast majority of accidents i have seen are caused by moving back and forward etc either standing on heels or worse, elbows in the face (seeing it more often recently).
So the danger talk on dips and drops works then?

Down South you have Mikeys strictly sinful classes bringing something new followed by negative talk. We get New Zealand aspects followed by more negatives. We get moves from down under followed by negative talk of their lack of musicality or whatever. Then we get this topic!!!!

Why cant ceroc incorporate more salso, tango, hip hop and west coast aspects into existing ceroc moves. Why not incorporate anything that brings style and movement that would enhance modern jive and make it more interesting and exciting!!! One other important aspect is looking after ALL the dancers and keeping their interest in ceroc at a high level. I hear Simon White has now moved to Ceroc.
I believe he no trades as Ceroc Plus, and teaches Lindy too. Perhaps the first swallow of summer? My guess is Ceroc will exploit the opportunities it has created.

I would like to thank him for producing his monthly video of previous intermeddiate classes on the web for all to see. I JUST WISH CEROC WOULD D0 THE SAME BIG TIME. ~
There are many videos out there of different moves and classes. Ceroc has concentrated on teacher led classes. It is called focus. Ceroc has a new top man in Mike Ellard. I believe changes are on the way.

[Jive Brummie]

Originally posted by michael
After a mere seven months doing ceroc i am becoming bored, restless and irritated all at once.

I hear regulars talking of either going to or already at other dance styles. Often that means ceroc have some or half that persons income going to another competitor. At a recent dance night unusually for me, i sat down and watched others for inspiration. All i could see was dancers going back and forward in the same old boring way and nothing there to inspire me except Dave H and Brady dancing extremely well together and managing to get the wow factor.

That aside it would appear that after a short while for some, or a couple of years for others we get bored and want change. When starting off as a complete beginner there is overload with loads to do and learn. I hardly feel we need to worry on the beginner score. But why must we have to look elsewhere for inspiration or that something extra. More to the point why do we feel we have to knock something else that is introduced or given attention. We get a video on Dips and Drops followed by all the negative talk particularly the danger aspect. I go to three different venues and the vast majority of accidents i have seen are caused by moving back and forward etc either standing on heels or worse, elbows in the face (seeing it more often recently). Down South you have Mikeys strictly sinful classes bringing something new followed by negative talk. We get New Zealand aspects followed by more negatives. We get moves from down under followed by negative talk of their lack of musicality or whatever. Then we get this topic!!!!

Why cant ceroc incorporate more salso, tango, hip hop and west coast aspects into existing ceroc moves. Why not incorporate anything that brings style and movement that would enhance modern jive and make it more interesting and exciting!!!

One other important aspect is looking after ALL the dancers and keeping their interest in ceroc at a high level. I hear Simon White has now moved to Ceroc. I would like to thank him for producing his monthly video of previous intermeddiate classes on the web for all to see. I JUST WISH CEROC WOULD D0 THE SAME BIG TIME. BE MORE PRO-ACTIVE AND PRODUCE HUNDREDS OF CLIPS OF VARIOUS MOVES FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY ON A WEB SITE FOR US ALL TO SEE. No excuses please, Ceroc would be more likely to GAIN MORE BUSINESS AND allow those who dont want to wait for a class to see a move they may or may not like. It may not produce better dancers since the moves have to be done properly, but it would certainly stop us guys that get fed up with the same boring moves to seek out new ones WHEN WE WANT TO and then go to the classes and monthly dances in a positive and exciting mood or whatever.

Sure workshops are there to do that and more and if you are interested and can afford the TIME AS WELL AS THE MONEY then fine. Those that don't go (a lot of cerocers) can at least sit in the comfort of their own home and watch the various dance class clips. They will benefit from doing so and so will ceroc. Taking it a stage further why not select those known for their ceroc style to do clips of their classes in the way they do the moves and others with different styles likewise. Then it may stop many of the better dancers moving elswhere for inspiration or ideas. CEROC is great fun for beginners because they can progress at pace and the more often they go the quicker the progress. Some people are happy to do the same old moves for years on end, others are not.

After a while some of us need access to more moves. Un-usual ones, standard ones we forget, simple ones we overlook, stylish ones we didnt know existed and really difficult ones to challange us. SO WHY NOT GET THEM ALL ON VIDEO and look to the longer term benefits it may well bring to Ceroc. In doing so this thread may not be necessary!!!!

Sorry for the long post but it has been a while since last one:blush:

PS Sheena and Linda must surely be re-named "THE LUNATIC CREW" What with heavy snow forecast on Tuesday past, you would have thought they would have passed on Jumping Jacks opening night. I mean Dundee to Glasgow!!! and back. DIE HARDS INDEED WELL DONE :hug:

I'm struggling a bit with this post Michael. Bored after 7 months??????? Personally, the more i dance ceroc, the more it seems i have to learn. There's always something new to learn but it's up to the individual to find it. Maybe the reason ceroc don't teach in a more latin, salsa or hip hop style is because....it's modern jive:whistle: I doubt if a hip hop class teaches in a modern jive style to keep it's students??? For me, after i first managed to work out how to do a semi circle to the right/left in time to the music, i then had the problem of remembering the moves...then stringing moves together. Then came the big bad mamma jamma...MUSICAL INTERPRETATION:rofl: . This is something i'm still working on. In between doing all this i'm trying to ensure that the moves i do know are done correctly and with some style. I think it's probably better to have perfect beginners and some intermediate moves under your belt than to constantly search for new ideas and ways to dance. There's just no point doing a slasa style first move type thing if it feel's or looks plain crap and you can't manage a 'normal' first move. The old walk before you can run adage is springing into my head and i personally feel that i'm not even jogging yet.

James..........:cheers:

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
There's just no point doing a slasa style first move type thing if it feel's or looks plain crap and you can't manage a 'normal' first move.
Absolutely! And this is what most of the girls will say to you too!


I personally feel that i'm not even jogging yet.
James, Sweetheart, you're running and have been ever since I met you at Blackpool last year. :hug:

J :nice:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
The old walk before you can run adage is springing into my head and i personally feel that i'm not even jogging yet. Crawling maybe :D

(Just kidding)

Steve

[Jive Brummie]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Crawling maybe :D

(Just kidding)

Steve

You're so predictable........

:rofl:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
You're so predictable........

:rofl: I know. It just gets boring after a while eh! :whistle: :clap:

Steve

[Glasgow Jane]

Originally posted by michael
After a mere seven months doing ceroc i am becoming bored, restless and irritated all at once.
:confused: Wow! I've been inspired to write my first ever post! Michael, Sweetheart, where is all this angst coming from? Can it really be you? How can you possibly be bored?:confused:

Why cant ceroc incorporate more salso, tango, hip hop and west coast aspects into existing ceroc moves. Why not incorporate anything that brings style and movement that would enhance modern jive and make it more interesting and exciting!!![
Style and movement come from the pelvis, babe! Not from any particular dance style...

it would certainly stop us guys that get fed up with the same boring moves to seek out new ones WHEN WE WANT TO and then go to the classes and monthly dances in a positive and exciting mood or whatever.
Then don't do the same boring moves! Take issue with some of the hundreds (dare I say thousands? No, probably not) of moves already available to you (7 months, once a week, four intermediate moves per week, that's about 120 moves). You don't need fantastically complicated moves to dance well, feel good or look good.

Some people are happy to do the same old moves for years on end, others are not.
Yes, the majority of men seem to be happy with the ten or so moves they're happy with...but it's better to dance those ten moves really well than thrash around looking for added stimulation from impossibly messy ones. I've been dancing for a year now and in my admittedly limited experience very few men ever dance new moves or bring out the ones we've just done in the class. There are exceptions, of course, and we love you, boys (you know who you are):cheers::flower:

After a while some of us need access to more moves. Un-usual ones, standard ones we forget, simple ones we overlook, stylish ones we didnt know existed and really difficult ones to challange us.
Write them down! Practise them! If you see someone doing a great move, go and ask them to show you how! And don't forget it's the connection with your partner that really delivers the goods and makes it all feel good, look good and do your soul good... that's what rumour has it among the girls anyway:wink:

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by michael
After a while some of us need access to more moves. Un-usual ones, standard ones we forget, simple ones we overlook, stylish ones we didnt know existed and really difficult ones to challange us. SO WHY NOT GET THEM ALL ON VIDEO and look to the longer term benefits it may well bring to Ceroc.

Are they still doing 'moves' in Scotland? :whistle:

Nowadays I just go for 'moving' and listen to what the music tells me to do - and it's rarely 'moves':devil:

Seriously though, people go through phases - and one of them is the feeling that you don't know enough moves. I've found that I mostly do moves I've learnt in the last 6 months. Maybe I can't remember more than a certain number and the new ones bump the old ones out of my memory - if I could remember them I'd know loads of moves:confused:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Nowadays I just go for 'moving' and listen to what the music tells me to do - and it's rarely 'moves':devil:

Unless it's a lindy (polka) track, in which case not only is it moves, it's skittles :devil:

Chris

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Unless it's a lindy (polka) track, in which case not only is it moves, it's skittles :devil:

Chris

I go for either skittles or a domino affect. If you line people up right you can get them to bounce into other people to increase your score:whistle:

[michael]

Thanks to all who replied when i mentioned i was bored after seven months. I even got a PM. Perhaps bored was not the correct word. Being content with what you see and what you want to do is important to me. perhaps i shall just have to purchase some videos.

Not quite more moves i need, rather a few moves I LIKE THE LOOK OF. More moves are no use to me if i dont like them!!!! and would probably forget them anyway. Therefore for me having a whole load of moves on video would appeal to me and i could select the few i like, see its easy and no need to wait a year to see the 120 or so moves in a class.

Obviously i could try doing the moves in the correct manner and doing them a hell of a lot better but that would bore me!!!! in fact it would bore a hell of a lot of people out there. No it is just the movements i see of going back and forwards doing common moves that just fails to inspire me. Each to their own i suppose and i get bored with that!!

I liked Amir when he came up to Edinburgh to do a workshop. I knew before i even saw him that i would like his style. Amir teaches you to DANCE i like that guy!!!! I liked Simon's moves in the web site simply because they involved moving left and right and in a circle as well as moving back and forward. I thought modern jive ceroc was a mixture of many different styles and not just moving back and forward. Must give myself a shake:angry:

working too damn hard just now. jesus is that the b....y time:confused:

[Chris]

Originally posted by michael
Not quite more moves i need, rather a few moves I LIKE THE LOOK OF. More moves are no use to me if i dont like them!!!! and would probably forget them anyway. Therefore for me having a whole load of moves on video would appeal to me and i could select the few i like, see its easy and no need to wait a year to see the 120 or so moves in a class.

I think a lot of dancers would echo your feelings. I certainly pick moves I like, then usually 'play' with them for months, finding different variations, ways of doing them or getting into them, things to add or take away. I'm not sure how I feel about videos - I like them mostly for revising or going over a move I've seen taught, or looking at the different ways it's taught. The ones that feature the more 'leadable' moves appeal to me personally just now, rather than ones that rely on the follower knowing her part - but if you are practicing with a partner at home, the opposite may appeal. (Have tried to distinguish these for what it's worth on my website.)

I liked Amir when he came up to Edinburgh to do a workshop. I knew before i even saw him that i would like his style. Amir teaches you to DANCE i like that guy!!!!
I also like that difference (learning to DANCE as opposed to learning more of the particular dance style). Amir's a full-time professional dancer though - I always love to pick his brains when I get the chance!
:cheers:

[Glasgow Jane]

Originally posted by michael
Obviously i could try doing the moves in the correct manner and doing them a hell of a lot better but that would bore me!!!! in fact it would bore a hell of a lot of people out there.

Eh? :what: ...you're delirious now...:yeah:

xx :flower:

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Glasgow Jane
Eh? :what: ...you're delirious now...:yeah:

xx :flower: Yeah. What Jane said....

So, lemmee just get this clear, cos I'm not sure that I can believe it.

What you're saying, is that you don't want to do the moves well, or with style??

Hmmm..... I suggest that you don't tell your partners that. Especially the 'do them well' bit when it comes to the dips and drops that you're so fond of. Oh. Too late.

Ah well. See you soon :)

Steve

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by michael
After a mere seven months doing ceroc i am becoming bored, restless and irritated all at once.


I got bored senseless after dancing for 7 months and felt there was nothing really new to learnand almost quit.

Now after 9 years I feel there is so much to learn I don't know where to start and feel overwhelmed. Try videos especially. Instructinonal ones maybe have 10 moves on them, freestyle or competition videos usually have maybe 50-100 moves of them.

Forget the 'correct' manner. Its a simple blanket approach designed to provide no challenge for anyone. Most people who preach about the correct manner need to be exiled to some land where we keep small minded poeple so they can't bother the rest of us.

Make your own way. Experiment. I've seen students much better than their teacher where the teacher tries to teach the ability and talent out of them, usually with lines such as 'thats not ceroc'. Its just thats all the teacher knows and because of their limited experience is how it must be done. If you can lead something or do something, and it fits the music, use it.

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I got bored senseless after dancing for 7 months and felt there was nothing really new to learnand almost quit.

Now after 9 years I feel there is so much to learn
So what happened at 7 months, then?

Chris

[Jayne]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
try... team choreography
you sadistic b*****d!!!

j :wink:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I got bored senseless after dancing for 7 months and felt there was nothing really new to learnand almost quit.

Now after 9 years I feel there is so much to learn I don't know where to start and feel overwhelmed.

I actually left my regular venue last night feeling a bit depressed - about the sheer number of things I'm still doing wrong after 4.5 years. And also about the volume of things which I haven't learnt at all yet!

Still, put me back in the learning frame of mind, nicely in time for some workshops at the weekend :)

[Jayne]

Originally posted by Stuart M
I actually left my regular venue last night feeling a bit depressed
Maybe the former is the cause of the latter?

J :nice:

[Stuart M]

Originally posted by Jayne
Maybe the former is the cause of the latter?

J :nice:
Well - it's not like there's a lot of options on a Wednesday night in Glasgow, if that's what you mean (see these Londoners and their availability of choice...:jealous: :wink: )! No, the GUU's fine and there are loads of excellent ladies to dance with - just one of those nights I was painfully aware of all the errors in my technique.

[Jive Brummie]

Originally posted by michael
Thanks to all who replied when i mentioned i was bored after seven months. I even got a PM. Perhaps bored was not the correct word. Being content with what you see and what you want to do is important to me. perhaps i shall just have to purchase some videos.

Not quite more moves i need, rather a few moves I LIKE THE LOOK OF. More moves are no use to me if i dont like them!!!! and would probably forget them anyway. Therefore for me having a whole load of moves on video would appeal to me and i could select the few i like, see its easy and no need to wait a year to see the 120 or so moves in a class.

Obviously i could try doing the moves in the correct manner and doing them a hell of a lot better but that would bore me!!!! in fact it would bore a hell of a lot of people out there. No it is just the movements i see of going back and forwards doing common moves that just fails to inspire me. Each to their own i suppose and i get bored with that!!

I liked Amir when he came up to Edinburgh to do a workshop. I knew before i even saw him that i would like his style. Amir teaches you to DANCE i like that guy!!!! I liked Simon's moves in the web site simply because they involved moving left and right and in a circle as well as moving back and forward. I thought modern jive ceroc was a mixture of many different styles and not just moving back and forward. Must give myself a shake:angry:

working too damn hard just now. jesus is that the b....y time:confused:

Sorry Michael, I'm struggling with your post again. I was at the Amir workshop aswell and as far as i can remember, he taught various moves and concepts using the tramline method........employed in Ceroc:confused:

I think if you went to any dance class, anywhere, and tried to put your own 'style' into the moves before you'd even learned the move in the first place, you'd rapidly fall flat on your ass. I hope this isn't sounding offensive in any way Michael, but I can't help but come back to the walk before you run thing.

To this day, FC and I still practise our beginners moves and it hasn't done us any harm, in fact, I'd say it had improved our dancing and has helped to encourage our own style to come out even more. It's easy to become sloppy and lazy in your technique, but with some repetition and practise i really, honestly, think it makes you a better overall dancer...............and the women love it:wink: :wink:

James......:cheers:

p.s. finally, it's just been brought to my attention that by admitting that it doesn't interest you doing the moves in the correct manner that you may be compromising your partners safety............rather you than me old bean:sick:

[filthycute]

Originally posted by michael

Obviously i could try doing the moves in the correct manner and doing them a hell of a lot better but that would bore me!!!! in fact it would bore a hell of a lot of people out there.

I think this statement has to be the most damaging thing to ever come out of a mans gob. I'm sorry Michael but as a woman dancer reading this, it is a bit worrying. Looking at it from my point of view......

I love my dancing....go 2-3 times a week....have a fantastic partner to dance with....all the time!!! :wink: ......we've been practising really hard for the upcoming jive championships.......i spent weeks making outfits........we've got parents coming to watch.......paid out a lot of money to be able to compete at this event.......
Do you honestly think i'm going to get on the floor with someone who is openly admitting to (and from what i can make out, 'proud of') not learning how to dance the moves properly?????


NOT ON YER FECKIN' NELLY!!!!!!
Sorry hun, but i ain't risking being injured.

filthycute x x

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
I hope this isn't sounding offensive in any way Michael
Originally posted by filthycute
NOT ON YER FECKIN' NELLY!!!!!! They do "good cop, bad cop" so beautifully, don't they???

:cheers:

Chris

[filthycute]

Originally posted by ChrisA
They do "good cop, bad cop" so beautifully, don't they???

:cheers:

Chris

wind your neck in cockney:wink: :wink:

[Jive Brummie]

Originally posted by filthycute
wind your neck in cockney:wink: :wink:

Now, now dear, let us embrace our southern counterparts:kiss: :hug: :kiss:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by filthycute
wind your neck in cockney:wink: :wink: :rofl: :whistle:

I promise to do the moves as well as I can if I get a dance with you in March.

Though they probably won't be as good as what you're used to :tears:

:flower:

Chris

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
Now, now dear, let us embrace our southern counterparts:kiss: :hug: :kiss:

You can shut it an all!! :yum:

[Bill]

Originally posted by filthycute
You can shut it an all!! :yum:

Don't you just love 'domestics'..........


and Michael...I have to agree with James and Mel. Maybe oyu didn't mean to say exactly that you couldn't be botehred learning how to do the moves properly but that's what you said and that does suggest that how you dance will be sloppy or even dangerous.

You can interpret and use Ceroc however you want and theres loads of different styles to choose from - Nigel, Amir, Dan, Viktor, David etc etc....... You can move as much or as little as you want. You can add sexy, latin, Lindy, Salsa, bluesy, hip hop or whatever - dance in lines, circles, sideways........

Like James, the longer I dance the more I realise how little I've really managed to learn and how much more there is to discover.

Bit like I felt after doing my Highers at school. Thought I knew quite a lot about history then went to Uni and realised I knew sod all :sick: :sad:

[filthycute]

Originally posted by ChrisA
:rofl: :whistle:

I promise to do the moves as well as I can if I get a dance with you in March.

Though they probably won't be as good as what you're used to :tears:

:flower:

Chris

Good good.....see you in Blackpool :D
I'll be the one covered in denim....well on the bottom anyway.....ain't much covering the top.:sick: Pleeeeeeeeeeeease come and find me :flower:

filthycute x x

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by Bill
Like James, the longer I dance the more I realise how little I've really managed to learn and how much more there is to discover.


I've been feeling that way more and more recently. Give it another year and I'll know absolutely nothing :confused:


Originally posted by Bill
Bit like I felt after doing my Highers at school. Thought I knew quite a lot about history then went to Uni and realised I knew sod all :sick: :sad:

I realised I knew 'sod all' history too. But it might have been because I studied Applied Biology:wink:

[Mary]

Originally posted by Stuart M
- just one of those nights I was painfully aware of all the errors in my technique.

I've only been dancing about 7 or 8 years, I now dance, well, quite a few nights a week, and I STILL feel this :rolleyes:

Have to agree with you Michael that Amir teaches how to DANCE. But he always teaches using beginners moves - usually the first move. Using this he can teach, style, musicality, lead and follow, presentation and goodness knows what else.

Not quite sure EXACTLY what aspects you find boring. Dancing comes from within. We are given the tools i.e. some moves, some fundamentals in lead and follow (I hope), listening to the music, a couple of examples of styling. Given these tools it's then up to us to explore ways of utilising them. Sounds to me like you just need that little something that will trigger that road of exploration.

Hey, FC, once you and JB have had your 'domestic' check out ChrisA - he'll glide you so elegantly thru' a dance he'll make you swoon. (That'll be a tenner then Chris:wink: )

M

[filthycute]

Originally posted by Mary
Hey, FC, once you and JB have had your 'domestic' check out ChrisA - he'll glide you so elegantly thru' a dance he'll make you swoon. (That'll be a tenner then Chris:wink: )

M

Well i've tried to make myself as noticable as possible so if he doesn't find me i'll be gutted now! :tears:

ermm..can i have 2 dances or is that just greedy? :yum:

filthycute x x

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by filthycute
Well i've tried to make myself as noticable as possible so if he doesn't find me i'll be gutted now! :tears:

Worry not... you've been drawn to my attention on last year's Blackpool vid.

Why did you think I said "break a leg" to James???? :tears:

:flower:

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by Mary
Hey, FC, once you and JB have had your 'domestic' check out ChrisA - he'll glide you so elegantly thru' a dance he'll make you swoon. (That'll be a tenner then Chris:wink: )

:tears: no pressure then....

Gee, thanks M. :angry:

[Bill]

Originally posted by filthycute

I love my dancing....go 2-3 times a week....have a fantastic partner to dance with....all the time!!! :wink: ......we've been practising really hard for the upcoming jive championships.......i spent weeks making outfits
filthycute x x



Read this again and when I got to this point I felt a mixture of jealousy and dismay. Watching Mel and James just shows what ability and practice can do. I've said for over a year now I think they are a great combination and would love to be able to dance with Fran 2 or 3 times a week instead of twice a month. We still haven't decided what we're wearing this year.

Not a plea for sympathy ( not that we'd get any) but just the realisation that without constant practice it is difficult to improve and progress. There are lots of couples in our situation who must feel the same and then wonder if entering a comp is really a good idea :sick:

Maybe you should enter a competition Michael... that way you could concentrate on specific moves and think about lots of style points with your partner - maybe give oyu back some ooomph

Well at least we can have a laugh in the double trouble :na: :D :rolleyes:

[filthycute]

Originally posted by ChrisA
Worry not... you've been drawn to my attention on last year's Blackpool vid.

:flower:

Are you on the Blackpool vid aswell???
If you are.....who's you?

filthycute x x

[michael]

Originally posted by michael

Obviously i could try doing the moves in the correct manner and doing them a hell of a lot better but that would bore me!!!! in fact it would bore a hell of a lot of people out there. No it is just the movements i see of going back and forwards doing common moves that just fails to inspire me. Each to their own i suppose and i get bored with that!!

:

When i joined this forum i did so in order that i could hopefully improve my dancing. This i thought could be done by advice from many of the forum members that have much experience and ability and their advice would be most welcome.

I have had some really great advice by reading the various posts and the occassional PM that is most welcome, from people who really want to try and help others.

Some people whether they mean it or not appear to go out of their way to take the wrong meaning out of a statement made, particularly from the likes of a relative beginner such as myself.

I see these comments from other posts with other people trying to slay others and it makes me sad.

There can be few male dancers in Glasgow that have started around the time i started that have been as keen to learn the basics as i have been. After 10 weeks i went to a beginner workshop in Edinburgh and was delighted with the outcome learning much. In the AMIR workshop Amir as i said "taught you how to Dance" and the thing i liked was "The FACT he mentioned NOT just moving in tram line but varying the movements" You must have missed that part James!

I love the basic moves and naturally do them in my limited routine. I doubt i do them perfect or absolutely correct. But since i go dancing at least twice a week i would expect to improve over those basic moves in time. To suggest that by what i said means: I DONT WANT TO DO THE MOVES CORRECTLY AND DONT WANT TO LEARN IS ABSURD. That is NOT what i said. I merely said i would be bored, meaning to simply concentrate on improving basics and nothing else would be boring.

[TheTramp]

Sorry Michael, but I took what you said the same way as James. And I know that a lot of other people did as well. (Yes, people do talk about what's said on the forum when they meet up).

I don't think that you can blame James (or the rest of us) for taking it that way. We were just taking it literally, exactly as you said it.

I don't think that anyone was trying to 'slay you'. Just that we were all surprised by what you said.

It's nice to know that you didn't mean it that way though. Now that you've clarified it.

Steve

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by michael
I merely said i would be bored, meaning to simply concentrate on improving basics and nothing else would be boring.

I think I know what you mean Michael, but no matter how much you do those limited beginers moves, you should just concentrate on those to begin with.
If there were ONLY the beginners moves, then I would suggest YOU would try to see how you can improve on them yourself.

Have you tried "playing" with the music?

It may have been put before in this thread, but "musicallity" is AS important as the basic moves, and sometimes more so.
I remember a number of years back when I was asked if I would meet somebody at a "musicality" workshop she was attending. I agreed, with a thought in my head that I knew about "music", so i'll just go along to keep her company. I learned more in that 45 minutes about dancing WITH and TO the music than I had learned in the 2-3 years of West Coast Swing that preceeded the lesson.
I would suggest that BEFORE you learn any more moves, take what you have, and go to a "musicality" workshop (if there is one about anywhere) and this will bring a whole new meaning to the moves you know.
I think you will then find that your limited move knowledge will fade into insignificance.
You will have all you can contend with just trying to make those moves fit the music, as you learn what to listen for.
Good luck
:cheers:

[JamesGeary]

Originally posted by Jive Brummie
using the tramline method........employed in Ceroc:confused:


By tramline you mean dancing in a slot? I didn't realise people in ceroc were teaching dancing in a slot, at least I haven't noticed it. Not that I think a slot is a better way of dancing, its just another way of dancing. Its like how you get Cuban salsa which is circling each other and LA salsa which is slotted. I like mix and matching for fun.

I find the quickest way to find out if they've done any other type of partner dancing is to lead them in a straight line, and see if they follow. If they follow they've done some other sort of dancing.

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
By tramline you mean dancing in a slot? I didn't realise people in ceroc were teaching dancing in a slot, at least I haven't noticed it.
You miss the lessons then ?:)

[JamesGeary]

Not at all. I've done 4 lessons with ceroc/mj here, one with Viktor, one with Nigel, one with MikeE & and one with Amir. Quality not Quantity. :) :) :)

[ChrisA]

Originally posted by filthycute
Are you on the Blackpool vid aswell???

Nope. This is my first year competing, apart from a DWAS before Xmas that kind of got me a bit more in the mood, so to speak :really:

Chris

[michael]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry Michael, but I took what you said the same way as James. And I know that a lot of other people did as well. (Yes, people do talk about what's said on the forum when they meet up).

I don't think that you can blame James (or the rest of us) for taking it that way. We were just taking it literally, exactly as you said it.

I don't think that anyone was trying to 'slay you'. Just that we were all surprised by what you said.

It's nice to know that you didn't mean it that way though. Now that you've clarified it.

Steve


Quote from Filthy Cute:Do you honestly think i'm going to get on the floor with someone who is openly admitting to (and from what i can make out, 'proud of') not learning how to dance the moves properly?????

James Quote was saying i was not interested in doing beginner moves.

Perhaps you could tell me EXACTLY where i said that in my comments. I would be most interested really. LOOK AGAIN

I have no intention of posting further enough is enough enjoy your comments and i will get on with life. I enjoy my dancing but henestly you would think some people just want to take you down a peg for whatever reason.

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
I find the quickest way to find out if they've done any other type of partner dancing is to lead them in a straight line, and see if they follow. If they follow they've done some other sort of dancing.
OR you may just have a good lead :)

ALL the MJ/Ceroc classes I've seen have been slotted, in tramlines. Where did you have your lessons?:confused:

[Jive Brummie]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Sorry Michael, but I took what you said the same way as James. And I know that a lot of other people did as well. (Yes, people do talk about what's said on the forum when they meet up).[QUOTE]

:yeah:

[QUOTE] I don't think that you can blame James (or the rest of us) for taking it that way. We were just taking it literally, exactly as you said it.

I don't think that anyone was trying to 'slay you'. Just that we were all surprised by what you said.[QUOTE]

no, slaying you Michael was not on my agenda.

[QUOTE] It's nice to know that you didn't mean it that way though. Now that you've clarified it.

Steve

Sorry Michael but I'm sticking to my guns with reference to the post I placed. If you want advice and you're willing to take it from a comparative newby like myself, who you probably think is just some jumped up young whipper snapper, then I would suggest practise the stuff you know and ignore the stuff you don't..(for the time being of course). If you're not interested in what I wrote or have misinterpreted me like I seem to have done you, then just put me on your blocked list...Chris has!!!!

All the best.....

[Rachel]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
By tramline you mean dancing in a slot? I didn't realise people in ceroc were teaching dancing in a slot... Marc does from time to time now. He 'stole' the idea after seeing some of David and Lily's west coast swing workshops etc etc. We've had some really nice comments from people after he's done a class like this. Especially when he explains why he's doing it, and also when it's combined with a routine of very limited footwork for the guys!

(ps James - I quoted to Marc your comments on why it can make things difficult for a leader if the girl overturns. He loved your explanation. It's something he used to endlessly try and persuade me not to do!!)
Rachel

[Jive Brummie]

Originally posted by michael

Quote from Filthy Cute:Do you honestly think i'm going to get on the floor with someone who is openly admitting to (and from what i can make out, 'proud of') not learning how to dance the moves properly?????James Quote was saying i was not interested in doing beginner moves.

Perhaps you could tell me EXACTLY where i said that in my comments. I would be most interested really. LOOK AGAIN

I have no intention of posting further enough is enough enjoy your comments and i will get on with life. I enjoy my dancing but henestly you would think some people just want to take you down a peg for whatever reason. Do you know what, you've taken what I've written completely out of context. Something it seems I've allegedly done to you....personnally I don't think I have. Now you've gone in a strop.....why:confused: And you've decided to take yourself out of the thread and get on with life:whistle: because you think some of us (....let me guess.............erm........ me and FC?????) are trying to take you down a peg?????

Michael........................................... ......get a grip mate

[Franck]

Originally posted by michael
I merely said i would be bored, meaning to simply concentrate on improving basics and nothing else would be boring. I agree with you it is very boring, and indeed hard work.

What happened is that you have reached one of the (many) plateaus on your dancing path.
The initial learning curve is very fast, and exciting (as your earlier posts demonstrated), but when you reach intermediate level, it gets much steeper.

It is very tempting (and indeed perfectly acceptable) to just stop there, and keep dancing, have a good time, many have, and there is nothing wrong with that.

The next step involves working on and practising stuff for which you won't see results immediately (and sometimes not for months), this is very dispiriting, and until you get through the next milestone, you really won't appreciate the usefulness of the advice you've already been given.

Keep an open mind, join various / different beginners / intermediate classes and workshops. Try to dance to music you're not used to, especially music you either don't get, or you think is not suitable... Challenge yourself (but not your partner). Don't assume or dismiss anything because you've heard it before, perhaps you weren't ready to hear it then!
Finally, find a partner you love dancing with (you click) and enter a competition... This should really focus you :D

[Mary]

Excellent words Franck. I think the "plateau" scenario probably applies to any activity or sport, and I think we've all been there - just some of us may have just forgotten!!:flower:

M

[filthycute]

Michael i'm sorry if you've picked my post up as being a personal attack on yourself. Whatever feelings you have about my previous posts to other forumites i can assure you i am not the forum trouble maker and definately do not go out of my way to upset or attack people. I'm sure you backed up your first post with a correction on the lines of...."Maybe bored wasn't the word i should have used". Something like that. I just think you have put what you're trying to say all the wrong way round.
I do hope you come back on the thread since you have played a big part in the discussions.....maybe then you will see that Franck has said exactly what i think you were trying to say.
Hmm...now what was i trying to say????:confused:

Anyway....My final words will be.....
Ceroc can teach you to dance........but to dance good, you have to figure that one out for yourself. So please don't have a pop at your teachers......they do they're job well and i'm sure there are hundreds of people who don't find them or their moves boring in the slightest.

PS do i need to add a disclaimer on this???
I am well aware that no one said the teachers are boring.....but if you slate their moves i dunno what else to think.


filthycute x x

[Andy McGregor]

Originally posted by JamesGeary
By tramline you mean dancing in a slot? I didn't realise people in ceroc were teaching dancing in a slot, at least I haven't noticed it.

I've never been to a Ceroc lesson that wasn't taught in a slot. But that could be due to the lines stand in.

Also, on a crowded dance floor slotted dancers are much less likely to bang into each other. People that dance in a circle no matter how little space there is are usually the ones that bang into people - I think they take up the space of 3 slotted couples as their dance space is as wide as it is long.

On the subject of learning plateaus, isn't that normal for any learning process. There's got to be a period where you assimilate what you've learnt.

Personally speaking I think I get worse every time I learn something new. I've got to incorporate something I'm new to into my dancing, that makes me a beginner all over again until I've got the knack of that new technique. And just about the time that happens I learn something else new and the cycle of being a beginner starts all over again.

[michael]

Originally posted by Franck
I agree with you it is very boring, and indeed hard work.

What happened is that you have reached one of the (many) plateaus on your dancing path.
The initial learning curve is very fast, and exciting (as your earlier posts demonstrated), but when you reach intermediate level, it gets much steeper.

The next step involves working on and practising stuff for which you won't see results immediately (and sometimes not for months), this is very dispiriting, and until you get through the next milestone, you really won't appreciate the usefulness of the advice you've already been given.

Challenge yourself (but not your partner). Don't assume or dismiss anything because you've heard it before, perhaps you weren't ready to hear it then!
:D

Thank you so much Franck. You have properly read my posts and taken out exactly what i am saying and at what stage i am going through. Over the period i have been on the forum i have enjoyed it greatly. Those who post to try and help others know who they are and i and many others cannot thank you enough for the advice and help we get from all of you.

I totally agree with you that the next stage of my (and probably others at this stage) dancing becomes much more difficult. I am already changing certain things and i hope slowly improve on various aspects. I took great pleasure from a much earlier post (David B I think) when he mentioned how much he enjoyed the basic moves and adding simple variations to it. But i still want to add moves i dont see others doing and some that just appeal to me as an individual. For me being bored doesent mean i dont want to continue, others might leave. I went to Marcos last night (Edinburgh) and it was just brilliant. Been very busy of late and had not been to any dance class for a fortnight!!!

Competitions may be great and i have little doubt they probably improve your dancing no end. From what i observe though, i feel there is also a negative aspect which i wouldn't dare mention.

James i would never stop or prevent posts being received by anyone. ref to Chris. Life is far too short to hold or keep grudges or behave bad to anyone for that matter. I shall still cheer for you and mel when i go down to Blackpool, though i might just not cheer as LOUD as i would have :grin:

[michael]

Originally posted by filthycute
Michael i'm sorry if you've picked my post up as being a personal attack on yourself. Whatever feelings you have about my previous posts to other forumites i can assure you i am not the forum trouble maker and definately do not go out of my way to upset or attack people. I'm sure you backed up your first post with a correction on the lines of...."Maybe bored wasn't the word i should have used". Something like that. I just think you have put what you're trying to say all the wrong way round.
I do hope you come back on the thread since you have played a big part in the discussions.....maybe then you will see that Franck has said exactly what i think you were trying to say.
Hmm...now what was i trying to say????:confused:

Anyway....My final words will be.....
Ceroc can teach you to dance........ So please don't have a pop at your teachers......they do they're job well and i'm sure there are hundreds of people who don't find them or their moves boring in the slightest.

PS do i need to add a disclaimer on this???
I am well aware that no one said the teachers are boring.....but if you slate their moves i dunno what else to think.

filthycute x x

Well at least you did say NOBODY SAID THE TEACHERS ARE BORING!!! why mention it then!!!!!!

BUT IF YOU SLATE THEIR MOVES I DUNNO WHAT ELSE TO THINK!!!!

You must have forgotten the bit NO ONE HAS SLATED THEIR MOVES.

UNLESS you think anyone who gets bored with the moves they are doing or does not LIKE A PARTICULAR MOVE is slating the teacher.

Yep i have made the right decision enough is enough:sad:

[bigdjiver]

Originally posted by michael
Some people whether they mean it or not appear to go out of their way to take the wrong meaning out of a statement made, particularly from the likes of a relative beginner such as myself.


I saw it that way too. I wrote a long post to defend you, but it was too long, and I got called away before I could edit it.

I too do not do move "correctly". I sometimes use two hands to support / protect the lady when I was taught one, because I think it safer. Sometimes I embellish moves. Some hate it, some love it. There are ladies that seek variety, and I love to try and cater for that. Those that seek 10/10 for beginner moves can dance together. I can't please them all.

[TheTramp]

I doubt that anyone who can dance, does moves 'correctly'.

It's like learning to drive. When you're gearing up to pass your test, you do everything correctly. Then, as soon as you've got those L plates off the car, you start learning how to drive. Very few people actually drive in the same way after they pass their test, as they do when they take their test.

The important thing, however, (and I'm definitely not saying that this refers to anyone, it's a general observation) is to learn to drive correctly before you start learning how to actually drive.

I think that if you start to try to do the advanced stuff before you have the beginner, and intermediate stuff down well (ie, done in a manner than both looks good, and is pleasing and comfortable for your partner), then things will not be all rosy. The 'don't try to learn to run, before you can walk' theory.

Steve

[filthycute]

Originally posted by michael
Well at least you did say NOBODY SAID THE TEACHERS ARE BORING!!! why mention it then!!!!!!

You must have forgotten the bit NO ONE HAS SLATED THEIR MOVES.

Well you went to some lengths to say how bored you were with the routines you were learning so i just assumed that you didn't like the moves they were teaching.


UNLESS you think anyone who gets bored with the moves they are doing or does not LIKE A PARTICULAR MOVE is slating the teacher.

No i don't think this at all.


Not got much else to say on this matter.......i gave up arguing with children when i left primary school......you know the days when we all still wrote EVERYFING IN CAPITOL LETTERZ.

:hug: :kiss: you know and all that good stuff........:rofl:

[Glasgow Jane]

Originally posted by michael
I have no intention of posting further enough is enough enjoy your comments and i will get on with life. I enjoy my dancing but henestly you would think some people just want to take you down a peg for whatever reason.

:hug:Chill out, honey, no-one's trying to take you down a peg. You know we in Glasgow/points West enjoy your wacky routines! You've got to admit you have said some fairly provocative things as a result of feeling the (very natural) frustration which quite a lot of people have commented that they, too, have felt at various stages. You've got to let everybody else have their reactions too, and I've seen a lot of support, sympathy and constructive comments coming back at you from your original post as well as the prickly ones.

Don't forget there's an incredible wealth of experience, talent, support and enthusiasm out there in the MJ world for you to draw on. Don't alienate yourself by being defensive, stick in there and make use of it! Most of the comments seemed to be in the region of "don't go wildly off track trying to find a different way to do it; just stick with the beginner/intermediate moves, keep trying to improve them, pay attention to the music, take care of your partner." All damn sound advice I reckon!

love you honey,:kiss: see you soon, yeah!
x Jane:flower:

[Martin]

So many quotes I could reply to...

The thread interested me "Ceroc style vs technique"

This is due to my experience last night.

I realised I do not dance ANY Ceroc moves "correctly" in normal freestyle with experienced dancers, my focus is on the music and having fun (dancing).

I was faced with a very attractive friend of a friend who came to a dance for her first time. I danced 5 basic beginner moves with her, lead clearly (no no, no hand signals applicable).
My background of being able to lead gently, clearly and correctly (beginner stlye) ensured that we had a fab time.

Technique and interpretation has it's place (in most interactions) more and more I am dancing with and encoraging beginners, which means "Ceroc style moves" and a thorough grounding in how to effectively do all of those beginner moves as they are taught.
I am so pleased I have spent so much time learning correct beginner moves (no "style") that total beginners can have a great dance and enjoy the night.

So play all you like, but do not forget the basics.

[bobgadjet]

Originally posted by Martin
So play all you like, but do not forget the basics. Here Here :cheers:
and that applies to ANY dance form.
It's often a good idea, after a while, to go back to the beginners classes. For one it gets your basics back, and also it can encourage a beginner to continue when they see somebody who they thought was an accomplished dancer actually taking the beginners class.
:cheers:

[tricky]

style comes from the heart of what you love to dance most.

technique comes from hard work and practice.

rythem comes from the soul.

all three and you are very lucky

[Barry Shnikov]

Style: has two meanings.

"...that's an element of his dance style" is one and
"his dancing has got style!" is the other.

The most outstanding example of the former is a guy who dances in London a lot. I don't know what his name is but everybody else here probably knows him. He's Asian, and his dance style always strikes me as being a blend of jive and kung fu: it's very 'choppy'.

But if you ask what 'style' is, using the word on its own...

It's said that a journalist once asked Satchmo 'What is soul?', and Satchmo said, "If you has to ask, you ain't got it." The point being that it's indefinable. We all know when we're watching a stylish dancer, and when we're watching a competent technician.

Can you teach someone to dance stylishly? I don't think so. It involves things like, reacting to the individuality of your partner, selection of moves and move sequences, interpretation of the song, when to dance close and when to stretch out. As a taxi dancer I saw men and women in their early days and you could tell they were never going to progress beyond a particular point. Sure enough, some of them - because they enjoyed the dancing, and good for them - were still around two years later and still managed to dance as if they still didn't quite get the message. There'd be other people - mostly women, I should point out - who took to it like a duck to water and you could tell that they would soon be 'beyond' beginner partners and attracting the attention of the experienced men.

There's also both objective and subjective views of the matter. Some dancers seem to attract universal approval - there's a group of 20 or so who get to into everybody's top 20, even if there's complete disagreement on the top 3! But then there's the subjective opinion: at the JiveMasters last year there was a couple in the final that I wouldn't look at twice. I'm not going to say why because it will tip everyone off, and I'm not looking to start a row. They were what I consider technicians, without (well, not utterly without) style. I suppose it was, in fact, their style (first definition above) that I disliked.

There are things you can teach: don't stoop or slouch while dancing, point your toes, don't droop your left hand by your hip or dangle it like a wet fish from a bent arm.

I suppose that I would agree with those people who've said that, in the end, the male dancer's only important critic is his partner. A satisfied partner is as good as a trophy.

[Lory]

Originally posted by Barry Shnikov
at the JiveMasters last year there was a couple in the final that I wouldn't look at twice. They were what I consider technicians, I suppose it was, in fact, their style (first definition above) that I disliked.



I felt the same but I wonder if it was the same couple?????

:confused: (maybe not?) :confused:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Barry Shnikov
Can you teach someone to dance stylishly? I don't think so. It involves things like, reacting to the individuality of your partner, selection of moves and move sequences, interpretation of the song, when to dance close and when to stretch out.
~snip~
There are things you can teach: don't stoop or slouch while dancing, point your toes, don't droop your left hand by your hip or dangle it like a wet fish from a bent arm.
I agree with your observations, but I don't know that I agree with your conclusions:
Although individual style is a matter of individual interpritation, you can teach/learn options and concepts which will enable you to explore your own style.
For example: David & Lilly's workshop recently on lady's styling (although I think some of the concepts can be applied to mens dancing as well): A few of the things touched uppon....
Simply walking - how do you actually place your feet? What direction do your toes point? what is the timing between weight distribution?
Body movement - where do you 'feel' the rhythm? feet, knees, hips, shoulders? Do you move the whole body to excentuate motion?
Arms - what's your free arm doing? Could you caress youself, your partner, the air...? where are your hands facing, palm up/down/facing...? what do your fingers do? does the movement extend all the way, or do you cut it short?
there are also styling points like "flash-lighting", "attitude", "posture", "timing", "footwork",... that can give you options to explore.
These are skills and can be taught - what is harder to do is learn when to apply these techniques. This is when "musicality" comes into play; again the art of actually listening to a track is one that can be learned with practice, but the concepts of what to listen for can be shown: Following/finding the beat, counter-beats, breaks, anticipation, bridges, seperating instruments, vocals,...etc.

You can give people the tools to discover their own style - this is the whole point of attending workshops and getting feedback. Even applying these tools to create your own style can be aided with direct one-on-one tuition.

Yes, some people will never improve beyond a certain level; but these people don't want to: they can dance and enjoy the music - why learn how to be flashey?

[Barry Shnikov]

Originally posted by Gadget
Although individual style is a matter of individual interpritation, you can teach/learn options and concepts which will enable you to explore your own style.

Yes, that's true. I should re-state my position, I think. It's not that you can't teach style, it's that certain dancers are able to learn style points, and clearly they can be instructed on things to watch out for. Thinking about the issue, whenever I have learned anything, I have noticed there are people who don't grasp the concepts very well, whether it's history or a foreign language or probability or rugby or, on topic, dancing.

So to say 'you can't teach some people to be stylish' is a truism, whatever the subject there are people who can't benefit from the teacher's skills.

I learned to Ceroc in Cambridge where Mick Walker taught every week; she mentioned what the lady's free left hand should be doing at least once per lesson. Then I danced in London for three years - that's something in the region of 600 lessons. The lady's free left hand was mentioned not more than 10 times in all. Go to Cambridge and you see lots of elegant dancing postures from the ladies; in London you'll see the majority of hands dangling like the shoulders have been anaesthetised.

So, in conclusion - you're right, I'm less right.:D

[Glasgow Jane]

Originally posted by Barry Shnikov
Yes, that's true. I should re-state my position, I think. It's not that you can't teach style, it's that certain dancers are able to learn style points, and clearly they can be instructed on things to watch out for. Thinking about the issue, whenever I have learned anything, I have noticed there are people who don't grasp the concepts very well, whether it's history or a foreign language or probability or rugby or, on topic, dancing.

I've been reading this thread with interest. Can you teach (or indeed learn) style? I think you can, but several things get in the way with style in dance - and I suppose this really applies to any sort of improvement, not just style. The first is that many people, I've noticed, don't have much idea of what a particular bit of their body is doing. I teach fiddle, and in the beginning stages it's very much the same, they have to be taught very carefully to notice what their hands are doing, what position they're in, otherwise they haven't a clue. So that's point number one, which involves building pathways of awareness to feet, legs, torso, arms, hands, head, so that you actually know what these bits of your body are up to at any given moment.

The second major point is that people can't see themselves, therefore they don't know that they're bent double, their arms are above their shoulders much of the time, they bounce up and down like a yo-yo or flap their hands like a baby bird, or whatever it is that is the 'sore point' at the time. I would dearly love to video myself dancing (or just get someone to watch carefully!) in order to knock some of these points on the head because I haven't a clue what they are and I really want to know. I suspect others would find this fascinating and useful too, in fact I have thought of offering my services to film people dancing freestyle for just this purpose, and may yet do just that (I feel another thread coming on).

The third point is that you never get feedback from experienced dancers. I make a point of asking for it, with very limited success (except you Trampy, :worthy: thanks honey - you're fab) because I want to know whether I'm heavy to lead, or throw too much (any!) weight when I'm stepping back, and I hate it when I **** up a move because I've never seen it before. I have asked some men to 'be gentle' :whistle: with me when they're leading and it has made a big difference - for me and, I hope, for the other women they dance with. It's not nice to leave a dance with your shoulders aching!

So is a culture of respectful feedback, freely given, possible within Ceroc? I'd love to think so!

Jane:flower:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Barry Shnikov
So to say 'you can't teach some people to be stylish' is a truism, whatever the subject there are people who can't benefit from the teacher's skills.
But, are those people who don't get it actually willing/interested in learning what is being taught? I would doubt it - those who are would seek the right questions to get the answers that made sense to them.
I agree that if it's shown without implicitly being mentioned, then the style points will only be absorbed by those who are eager and aware enough to take note.


So, in conclusion - you're right, I'm less right.
:wink: I wouldn't count on it; churning out a fixed/uniform style is just as bad as not teaching it IMHO: Style is individual and I think that only those who explore their own style rather than emulating one specific dancer/teacher's style are the dancers who become stylish.


Originally posted by Glasgow Jane
The first is that many people, I've noticed, don't have much idea of what a particular bit of their body is doing.
Agree 110%: Getting your body to fit into the mould that your mind creates is the hardest thing I find. I also think that this is why some prior martial arts training helps with dancing.


The second major point is that people can't see themselves, But many people don't want to see themselves. I agree that it is a valid tool for self improvement, but most people go to a freestyle night to dance, have fun and enjoy themselves... not to learn. A lot of people go to the classes for the same reason. Learning is just a sort of bonus "side-effect" to a fun, social night out.


The third point is that you never get feedback from experienced dancers.
You do if you ask. But as I have said before, the only feedback you should respect is that from people who's dancing you respect. Would you take feedback from a (relative) novice if you had been dancing for years, or would you simply think them too big for their boots? If you were a novice and a really experianced dancer started picking holes in your dancing, would you simply walk off dejected; never to return? If you want feedback, I think that you should ask or be asked: I think that there are too many miss-judged conclusions that could be drawn from just volenteering "advice".
As a second down side - how do you know the advice given is correct? One person could say "do this", another "do that"; which is right? And the one who's advice you don't take; do you tell them that they are wrong? What if the one who's advice wasn't right for you was one of the best dancers? Do you continue to try what they were advising against what you have found to work?
Personally, I think that Teachers, Taxis and regular partners are the only people that you should take advice from. And even then, be selective about what to spply to your dancing.

[Aleks]

Originally posted by Gadget
Would you take feedback from a (relative) novice if you had been dancing for years

Of course!
Of they're new to Ceroc/MJ I probably don't know their background.
They may be a fantastic teacher of a different style of dance/movement.
As with any advice, I can take it or leave it, but I wouldn't dismiss it just because it came from someone who appears to be a novice.

[Chicklet]

Originally posted by Glasgow Jane
I've been reading this thread with interest. Can you teach (or indeed learn) style?

Have just caught up with this thread and enjoyed it (great displacement activity for a Monday morning)

Own personal opinion, I don't think style (in the "individuality in dance" sense we are discussing) can be taught if the definition of teaching is giving someone knowledge and ability that they didn't have before. A skill can be taught.

I think it can be coached. I define coaching as encouragement and advice to bring to the surface a talent (rather than a skill) that has to be there somewhere in the first place. In some people it is just further under the surface than others and so takes a little more time and coaching to come up.

Coaching can take many forms, from a blatant - "do this" - to see if the person does it naturally (specific fourish with the left hand for exapmle) to a throw away comment from a peer like" I like the way you point your toes" making the person realise they point their toes and do it more often.

Style to my mind is individuality. Something that means I can identify people at a glance by the way they move. The individuality element is what to me makes it a talent rather than a skill.

Franck and Lorna in particular make a point in workshops especially but also in classes of encouraging us all (after ensuring the basics are in place :wink: ) to do a move with "attitude", IMHO this is a great word to use, it doesn't imply a particular style but more a "find your own feeling" notion. I also think it's a great way (particularly in Scotland where men are men and toe pointing's for girls eh) to suggest style without overtones of femininity, which some would deliberately eschew.

Michael, I sincerely hope you found a little of the inspiration that was possibly missing in your dance life when in Blackpool, there was certainly plenty of TALENT to be seen, and I'm sure I caught you smiling a couple of times!!

Barry and Lory, I wonder if I too would have picked the same couple, superb excecution but just something missing, for my taste - might feel a PM coming on to check!!

C:D

[Glasgow Jane]

Originally posted by Gadget
But, are those people who don't get it actually willing/interested in learning what is being taught?
...I agree that it is a valid tool for self improvement, but most people go to a freestyle night to dance, have fun and enjoy themselves... not to learn. A lot of people go to the classes for the same reason. Learning is just a sort of bonus "side-effect" to a fun, social night out.

I agree, certainly, that people go to freestyles and even classes to have fun and enjoy themselves. That's what I go for. But I would challenge the notion that this means they don't want to learn or improve. It's a fairly well accepted fact that the better you are at something, the more you enjoy doing it, especially if it is a 'team' or partner sport like MJ. I think if you asked absolutely anyone at any dance if they would like to be better at it, not one of them would say 'no'. There are lots of things - attitudes, beliefs - that get in the way of adults learning, most of it drummed into us as kids...



the only feedback you should respect is that from people who's dancing you respect. Would you take feedback from a (relative) novice if you had been dancing for years, or would you simply think them too big for their boots? If you were a novice and a really experianced dancer started picking holes in your dancing, would you simply walk off dejected; never to return? If you want feedback, I think that you should ask or be asked: I think that there are too many miss-judged conclusions that could be drawn from just volenteering "advice".
As a second down side - how do you know the advice given is correct? One person could say "do this", another "do that"; which is right? And the one who's advice you don't take; do you tell them that they are wrong? What if the one who's advice wasn't right for you was one of the best dancers? Do you continue to try what they were advising against what you have found to work?
Personally, I think that Teachers, Taxis and regular partners are the only people that you should take advice from. And even then, be selective about what to spply to your dancing.

yes, I wholeheartedly :yeah: agree with all of this. But we're all adults, we can be selective about trying things out, seeing if they suit us and taking on board what does, rejecting what doesn't (or even saying, I don't get that or it doesn't seem to work for me, can you explain further?) I don't think my fantasy was self-proclaimed experts merrily dishing out advice to everyone they dance with....?

And picking holes... that's the point about respectful feedback, it's all in the way you say it, only giving it when asked, and not making whoever it is feel criticised, but supported. I think what I really was getting at (and thanks for focussing me, Gadget! Have I met you? :confused: ) is that if some bloke is yanking me around the floor like crazy I've just gotta tell him, it's only fair to him (cos otherwise he won't get to dance with me again! :rofl: ) but otherwise, I'll ask whoever I admire :waycool: and you know who you are guys :worthy: to tell me when I mess up because I'd rather know...
xx

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Glasgow Jane
But I would challenge the notion that this means they don't want to learn or improve.
But there is a (large) difference between activly seeking knowledge and just learning because you are there. I use the classes - both beginner and intermediate to learn. I use the freestyle to dance. I'm not saying that ner the two shall meet, but my primary objective in freestyle is not to try new things or learn how to do a speciffic move - it's to dance and have fun. If I learn allong the way; so be it.
If there is something I want to learn about, or practice, then I will seek out someone that I respect as a dancer (/teacher), and ask them to comment. If I asked everyone I dance with and worried that much about my dancing, then I would not enjoy it half as much as I do.


I don't think my fantasy was self-proclaimed experts merrily dishing out advice to everyone they dance with....?
~snip~ if some bloke is yanking me around the floor like crazy I've just gotta tell him.
I was just exadurating to make a point - I think that your 'fantasy' is actually a reality: good dancers and teachers are very helpfull and will pass on advice. You just have to ask them :grin:
Giving advice: yes - if your partner is dancing in such a way to cause you harm or discomfort, then I agree; he(/she) should know and I would have no reservations about telling someone.
{Personally, any small matters of discomfort like gripping hands or anticipating, I tend to change my dancing to make it a lot harder for my partner to actually do - people tend to follow the path of least resistance :wink:}


(and thanks for focussing me, Gadget! Have I met you? :confused: )
Probably; I'm Gadget :D

[MartinHarper]

Last night for example, I danced for the first time, with a guy who was primarily Lindy, I ended up bouncing all over the place, we were skipping round and doing strange bobbing up and down weight changes from one foot to the other

Sounds like the Lindy eight beat bounce. I saw a Ceroc taxi at my local JazzJive class, and she said something similar about "that weird bouncy thing" everyone did. Well done for following it. :)
Sometimes you get a pairing where one partner has a definite "Lindy style", so they are doing a (light) eight beat bounce, and the other partner has a definite "Ceroc style", so they are doing a (light) four beat bouce. The clash of styles makes for an interesting dance.


If you played a 'club' track, then a latin track, then a swing track, you would be pushed to tell any difference in the way people dance.

Do you think you get more of a difference over more than one track? For example, would you see more difference in dancing style if you compared dancers at a night with almost all swing music, compared to the same dancers at a night with almost all club music?

[Ghost]

THREAD RESSURECTION

I was discussing different dances with someone last night and remarked that what I particularly like about Ceroc is the flexibility to adapt it to fit so many different styles of dancer and music.

Given that it's been 4 years, have Franck, Gadget, the Tramp et al changed their minds? What does everyone else think?


It has been interesting reading some of these comments. A few random thoughts: What do you mean by style?
Can you learn style if you ignore technique?
Do you go to a style workshop to develop your own style, or copy someone else's? (Good luck to anyone who can copy Victor & Lydia!!)
The emphasis in Modern Jive is almost exclusively on doing moves. Contrast this to the emphasis in Ballroom dancing, where the emphasis is on technique, and Lindy (I'm told) & West Coast Swing, where it is on musical interpretation. So can Modern Jive style be defined as how well you make a complicated move look?
I always think that Modern Jive feels better than it looks. I'm still trying to work out why.
Are there any Modern Jive couples you would stop dancing so you could watch?David
PS I didn't go to Victor & Lydia's workshop - it was a bit far... I have seen them dance, and like their style - even if I could never dance like that. I'm not criticising their workshop - I'm more interested in what people think about style, and were expecting from the workshop.