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David Bailey
5th-March-2007, 08:58 AM
What do you think defines an intermediate dancer?

Ceroc says 6 (or sometimes 12) weeks' dancing - although technically, that refers to attending intermediate classes. Perhaps that's where some of the confusion in terminology comes in - attending intermediate classes doesn't make you an intermediate dancer...

Is there any definition people would like to use? Is such a definition or classification even useful?

Dreadful Scathe
5th-March-2007, 10:59 AM
What do you think defines an intermediate dancer?

Ceroc says 6 (or sometimes 12) weeks' dancing - although technically, that refers to attending intermediate classes. Perhaps that's where some of the confusion in terminology comes in - attending intermediate classes doesn't make you an intermediate dancer...

Is there any definition people would like to use? Is such a definition or classification even useful?

I would say an intermediate dancer is someone who is beginning to understand musicality, connection, body movement and can create their own move variations. As many 10 year veteran JIVE dancers never manage to do this, intermediate for jive cant be defined that way - so id probably say it's anyone that can stick 8 moves together and stay upright :)

StokeBloke
5th-March-2007, 11:13 AM
id probably say it's anyone that can stick 8 moves together and stay upright :)
Damn! I'm getting so close I can taste it :D

David Bailey
5th-March-2007, 11:41 AM
Damn! I'm getting so close I can taste it :D
What part are you missing out on, the 8 moves or the staying upright? :)

Trouble
5th-March-2007, 12:45 PM
An intermediate dancer is whatever the venue deems is intermediate level. There are drastic variations of this accross the different venues of the dancing world.

The level of lessons will vary also depending on the new starters. A venue that has a lot of starters will never progress much beyond basic low level intermediate instruction.

Intermediate is not experience based or quality of your dancing decided, its lead purely by profits and how best to get maximum in. :what:

A true intermediate is somebody who can dance and get and give pleasure out of it whilst not looking like a dancing duck with piles that have just exploded onto the floor whilst singing "fly me to the moon." :D :D

ducasi
5th-March-2007, 01:24 PM
An intermediate dancer is one who is beyond being a beginner, but not yet what might be termed "advanced".

Or if we look on the "intermediate" class as what makes a beginner into an intermediate, then someone who is no longer learning from an intermediate class, must have reached that level. Of course, that assumes that there is nothing of value in the intermediate class to take the intermediate dancer further...

The problem with trying to define what makes an intermediate dancer is that it is implied that below is the beginner, and above is the advanced dancer. Thus we need to define both boundaries, but in doing so we need to first define what an advanced or beginner dancer is.

Third try at defining what what an intermediate dancer is... Most dancers by the time they have been dancing 6 months or so, can be classed as "intermediate". Some go on to become advanced dancers. A few never make it at all...

It's hard to define what an "intermediate" dancer is, but like "obscene" art, I knows it when I sees it. ;)

tsh
5th-March-2007, 01:36 PM
In the world of scuba (which is probably slightly more risky than dancing), 'advanced' to some people means at least 7 dives of more than 20 minutes and not in a swimming pool (and about £700 in tuition fees...)

Dreadful Scathe
5th-March-2007, 01:54 PM
An intermediate dancer is one who is beyond being a beginner, but not yet what might be termed "advanced".

You may as well state than an intermediate dancer is a tree, for all the meaning that statement gives :);) Saying that though, you are quite right, its the definitions that are the problem. To Ceroc clearly an intermediate dancer is someone that can attend an intermediate class reasonably competently, nothing else is really needed.

The next question is - where is the ceiling? Presumably someone stops being intermediate what they attain some other label - which could be advanced, teacher, taxi dancer or something else. A taxi dancer may not be "advanced" as most people would see it, especially if we take "advanced" to mean "professional or TV quality", but they certainly have been intermediates for quite some time (lets ignore the fact that time isn't the only criteria for dance improvement for now).

Likewise a teacher may not be "advanced" in many peoples eyes either but they are clearly a cut above intermediates and possibly your average taxi dancer.
:)

So i wonder what an "advanced" dancer is ? :)

Ghost
5th-March-2007, 02:05 PM
Fly to Australia - see which tests you can pass :wink:

Gav
5th-March-2007, 03:04 PM
What's an Intermediate dancer?

It's is a bloody awful way of describing someone's abilities.:na: :D

StokeBloke
5th-March-2007, 05:15 PM
The only real and useful judge of this is yourself, in my opinion. I knew when I became an intermediate dancer - because I felt the subtle changes.

To me dancing is about giving a dance to someone else. That is an intersting, fun dance that contains moves exectuted well, regardless of their complexity that are clear and easy to follow. When I felt proficient and able to do that regardless of my follow, I felt as if I had arrived at the intermediate stage. I could lead quite nicely, play around with moves a little, I was starting to get the idea of musicality, beginning to pick and choose moves to better suit the music and most importantly most of my partner's were leaving the dance floor smiling. Notice the use of the words 'starting', 'a little', 'beginning'... and 'most' :wink:

If you are looking for something to judge yourself by you could always try and see the amount of 1st moves*, yo-yos* and returns* your dances contain. I know that dancing is not about moves, moves, moves. But if you can get by without these well used beginner tools then your dancing your way to intermediate level.

I think the step from beginner to intermediate is a fairly swift one, the step from being an intermediate dancer to being an excellent dancer is far further away :sad:

*There is nothing wrong with any of these moves in moderation. This is only how I gauged my progress.

David Bailey
5th-March-2007, 08:25 PM
The only real and useful judge of this is yourself, in my opinion. I knew when I became an intermediate dancer - because I felt the subtle changes.
Oo-er, the mind boggles :rofl: :na:

Personally, I thought I was an intermediate dancer 10 years ago. However, I've learnt so much in that time, that I now think I'm just edging into the "intermediate" category.

In other words, the light at the end of the tunnel is still there, but the tunnel itself keeps on lengthening faster than I travel along it.

Ghost
6th-March-2007, 02:30 PM
Oo-er, the mind boggles :rofl: :na:

Personally, I thought I was an intermediate dancer 10 years ago. However, I've learnt so much in that time, that I now think I'm just edging into the "intermediate" category.

In other words, the light at the end of the tunnel is still there, but the tunnel itself keeps on lengthening faster than I travel along it.

You do realise that in 10 years time you'll look back to where you are now and realise you were still a beginner :wink:

I guess for me the question becomes "when is it useful to define your level?" - so I dare say in 30 years time the Amir of today would look like a beginner to his older self. But I'm guessing that if he tried to enter MJ comps now as a beginner people might object :whistle:

Likwise it seems to be a way of getting some kind of consistency in the minimum level of competence in a class or workshop.

But beyond that (and the personal satisfaction of going "Yay I'm a xxx now" :clap: )I'm not sure what other point or even need there is. Otherwise what do you call Amir in 5 years - Extremely Advanced? 10 years - Really Majorly Advanced, 15 years Supercalifragilisticexplialidocious Advanced etc. :wink:

Tessalicious
6th-March-2007, 02:40 PM
Maybe an intermediate dancer is more what most of us would call "long term intermediate", i.e. the ones who are no longer learning because they don't think they should.

So perhaps, the progression really goes like this:

Beginner --> Improver --> Intermediate

or

Beginner --> Improver --> Advancing --> Advanced

depending on the attitude of the dancer? And of course, advanced is a utopian (in the general sense, not the dance event) state which is increasingly unreachable the more you progress towards it.

DISCLAIMER: I reserve the right to be wrong...

LMC
6th-March-2007, 03:05 PM
It's like Xeno's paradox :(

*inserts "Intermediate Improver" between "Improver" and "Advancing" categories*

Thass me. I hope.

Dreadful Scathe
6th-March-2007, 03:18 PM
I guess for me the question becomes "when is it useful to define your level?"

A very good point indeed. Generally there are only 2 occasions where it matters: one; when you are entering a competition, and two: when you are attending a class that has a "level" advertised.

I've always been one to argue for obeying the definitions of catagories as definied by competiton rules. For example an "intermediate" dancer for the C2D Blackpool competition is anyone who is not a teacher or professional - so you are clearly still an intermediate if you have been dancing all your life and have been placed 3rd in the same competition 3 years running. Why? Because C2D say so. It beggars belief that people still argue and get upset about facts like this, but they have and they still do. Other competitions have different rules about qualification, which is fine. The point is; what I or anyone else thinks makes an "intermediate" is not important.

Where its a class that is advertising itself as "intermediate" level its really up to the individual to think they are ready. Usually if they are confident enough that'll be enough and if its too difficult, p[eople will step out - this really doesnt affect the rest of the class. Classes advertised as "advanced" are slightly different, as it can be slightly annoying if people who really are not advanced enough to handle it due to more complicated movements/timings insist that they are and spoil it for others - not a whole lot you can do about that though - and you can always get private lessons :)





Beginner --> Improver --> Intermediate
or
Beginner --> Improver --> Advancing --> Advanced


or

beginner > improver > arrogant hotshot > advancing > learnt some humility > can now actually dance > advanced



DISCLAIMER: I reserve the right to be wrong...

All women are labeled with that :)

straycat
6th-March-2007, 03:43 PM
To avoid any confusion, I find it's usually best to consult the dictionary.
---------------
in·ter·me·di·ate /ˌɪntərˈmidiɪt/

–adjective

being, situated, or acting between two points, stages, things, persons, etc.: the intermediate steps in a procedure.
of or pertaining to an intermediate school.
Automotive. mid-size.

–noun

a person who acts between others; intermediary; mediator.
something intermediate, as a form or class.
Chemistry. a derivative of the initial material formed before the desired product of a chemical process.


Dan·cer /ˈdænsər, ˈdɑn-/ [dan-ser, dahn-]
–noun

a person who dances.
a person who dances professionally, as on the stage.


Dan·cer /ˈdænsər, ˈdɑn-/ [dan-ser, dahn-]
–noun

a person who dances.
a person who dances professionally, as on the stage.


Dance /ˈdāns/ [danse]
–noun

To move rhythmically usually to music, using prescribed or improvised steps and gestures.
To leap or skip about excitedly.
To appear to flash or twinkle: [I]eyes that danced with merriment.
Informal To appear to skip about; vacillate: danced around the issue.
To bob up and down.


So. This gives us quite a few options.

Is an intermediate dancer:
A mid-size person who bobs up and down?
An automative person skipping about excitedly?
A flasher (or twinkler) between two persons?

Discuss.

David Bailey
6th-March-2007, 03:55 PM
You do realise that in 10 years time you'll look back to where you are now and realise you were still a beginner :wink:
That's probably true... :eek:

Minnie M
6th-March-2007, 04:21 PM
Maybe an intermediate dancer is more what most of us would call "long term intermediate", i.e. the ones who are no longer learning because they don't think they should.

So perhaps, the progression really goes like this:

Beginner --> Improver --> Intermediate

or

Beginner --> Improver --> Advancing --> Advanced

depending on the attitude of the dancer? And of course, advanced is a utopian (in the general sense, not the dance event) state which is increasingly unreachable the more you progress towards it.

DISCLAIMER: I reserve the right to be wrong...
:yeah:
I asked one of the American WCS pros what level I was at - he said Novice :tears: I have been learing WCS for 7 years now - although I haven't had many lessons in the past 5 years. However, Novice is their equivalent to our Improvers, so it is not as bad as I first thought :D and the American standard of WCS is much higher than ours :D :D

UK
Beginner --> Improver --> Intermediate

USA
Newcomer --> Novice --> Intermediate

Trouble
6th-March-2007, 04:28 PM
:yeah:
I asked one of the American WCS pros what level I was at - he said Novice :tears: I have been learing WCS for 7 years now - although I haven't had many lessons in the past 5 years. However, Novice is their equivalent to our Improvers, so it is not as bad as I first thought :D and the American standard of WCS is much higher than ours :D :D

UK
Beginner --> Improver --> Intermediate

USA
Newcomer --> Novice --> Intermediate

All of Americas standards are higher than ours. Its an american thing. Bigger, Better, Louder,,,,, etc etc.

So if your a novice i must be newcomer.. blimey thats a worry.!! :D

Martin
6th-March-2007, 05:02 PM
It depends which pond you swim in.

In the same way that I can go to one shop and order a large chicken or a family size chicken - down the road, if I order a small chicken (I get eq of large) if I order medium (I get eq of family size)

Clasification of intermediate varies in the same way. If you danced with one company in Newcastle, NSW, Australia, you would have to be able to demonstrate that you know all the beginner moves, dance with the teacher to a track, using at least 8 of these moves in freestyle, showing good lead/follow technique before you enter the intermediate classes. You then become an aspiring intermediate dancer, in time it is hoped you become an intermediate level dancer.

In some other venues, do 2 lessons in beginners, sneak into the intermediate class, hoping noone notices, and call yourself intermediate.

All subjective, when I told my mate (coz he asked), I thought him to be a good intermediate dancer (he had been dancing 12 years), he was a bit put out :sick:
I went on to explain that he does the moves, in time to the music, technically correct, to reach advanced he should now aim to "dance".

David Bailey
6th-March-2007, 06:37 PM
It depends which pond you swim in.
Swim? There's swimming now? Christ, I'm having enough problems learning to dance :eek: :na:

Martin
6th-March-2007, 06:52 PM
Swim? There's swimming now? Christ, I'm having enough problems learning to dance :eek: :na:

Swimin? I love swimin, they come in all shapes and sizes and they are fab to dance with...:flower:

Ghost
6th-March-2007, 07:11 PM
Swim? There's swimming now? Christ, I'm having enough problems learning to dance :eek: :na:

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/private-lounge/9000-playroom-20.html

Posts 395 onwards :wink:

(It might be considered advanced dancing though :whistle: )

David Bailey
6th-March-2007, 08:30 PM
Swimin? I love swimin, they come in all shapes and sizes and they are fab to dance with...:flower:

:rofl: :clap:

Lynn
6th-March-2007, 11:06 PM
UK
Beginner --> Improver --> Intermediate

USA
Newcomer --> Novice --> IntermediateI rather like that. I am a newcomer to WCS (having only started freestyling it a few weeks ago) - I like the sound of novice too - implies accquiring skill and learning from others.

Mr Cool
7th-March-2007, 09:06 PM
Dancing should not be judged by how long a person has danced:blush:
some people can dance from day one others struggle to dance all there lives :respect: :whistle:
Therefore For me it is not possible to define what a intermediate dancer is. :wink:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

David Bailey
7th-March-2007, 09:30 PM
Therefore For me it is not possible to define what a intermediate dancer is. :wink:
All good points.

What fool started this thread anyway?

straycat
7th-March-2007, 09:40 PM
What fool started this thread anyway?

I'm almost afraid to answer this one, in case some rogue moderator then changes Reality, making me wrong, and then these guys in dark suits and sunglasses start chasing after me with nasty guns :really: (if they weren't so keen on this slow-motion stuff, they'd be dead hard to get away from)

Scared now. :sick:

David Bailey
7th-March-2007, 09:48 PM
I'm almost afraid to answer this one, in case some rogue moderator then changes Reality, making me wrong, and then these guys in dark suits and sunglasses start chasing after me with nasty guns :really: (if they weren't so keen on this slow-motion stuff, they'd be dead hard to get away from)

Scared now. :sick:
What was that you said, Mr 234? :na: :wink:

Yogi_Bear
7th-March-2007, 11:43 PM
If you are looking for something to judge yourself by you could always try and see the amount of 1st moves*, yo-yos* and returns* your dances contain. I know that dancing is not about moves, moves, moves. But if you can get by without these well used beginner tools then your dancing your way to intermediate level.


I would disagree about the first move being in this list (not the others though). You can do a lot with leading and following nothing but first moves, but you'd probably need to be well above MJ intermediate level to demonstrate how that (with subtle variations and expert musicality) would be possible.

Gav
8th-March-2007, 01:09 AM
I would disagree about the first move being in this list (not the others though). You can do a lot with leading and following nothing but first moves, but you'd probably need to be well above MJ intermediate level to demonstrate how that (with subtle variations and expert musicality) would be possible.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: but not quite so polite :D :na:

I don't consider myself an intermediate dancer, or any other kind of dancer for that matter, I just dance :na: however, I can do plenty with 1st moves, yo-yo's and returns to fit with the music than Ceroc will ever teach (thanks to CJ for the inspiration at St. Neots).
I would imagine that if challenged, there would be at least a few people that could do an entire track with either just 1st moves or yo-yos using variations and improvisation to make it work.

Yogi_Bear
8th-March-2007, 09:15 AM
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: but not quite so polite :D :na:

I don't consider myself an intermediate dancer, or any other kind of dancer for that matter, I just dance :na: however, I can do plenty with 1st moves, yo-yo's and returns to fit with the music than Ceroc will ever teach (thanks to CJ for the inspiration at St. Neots).
I would imagine that if challenged, there would be at least a few people that could do an entire track with either just 1st moves or yo-yos using variations and improvisation to make it work.
Sure, they could make it work, 'intermediate' (whatever that is) standard dancers could make it work, but to make it look really good as opposed to just make it work they would need to be better than that, IMHO....:nice:
But preferably no yo-yos...:rolleyes:

Gav
8th-March-2007, 09:19 AM
Sure, they could make it work, 'intermediate' (whatever that is) standard dancers could make it work, but to make it look really good as opposed to just make it work they would need to be better than that, IMHO....:nice:
But preferably no yo-yos...:rolleyes:

Anti-Yo-yo brigade eh? Careful, you'll upset Beo.

Speaking of which, where's Beo?

Yogi_Bear
8th-March-2007, 09:21 AM
Anti-Yo-yo brigade eh? Careful, you'll upset Beo.

Speaking of which, where's Beo?
You've sussed me out. Bring on the compulsory dance of never ending yo-yos for yo-yo detractors....:wink:
Or I will never lead a yo-yo again :D

straycat
8th-March-2007, 09:35 AM
What was that you said, Mr 234? :na: :wink:

My. Name. Is. STRAYCAT!

(oh - and watch out for that train)

Dreadful Scathe
8th-March-2007, 10:06 AM
My. Name. Is. STRAYCAT!

(oh - and watch out for that train)
I thought your name was a take on fahrenheit 451 and was the temperature at which stray cats spontaneuosly combust. I think you're sick, sick , SICK :)

David Bailey
8th-March-2007, 10:10 AM
I would imagine that if challenged, there would be at least a few people that could do an entire track with either just 1st moves or yo-yos using variations and improvisation to make it work.
:yeah:
I believe Viktor did an entire class once on the First Move and variations, and he made it work, and work well.

Of course, I've also done lots of classes in AT where an entire hour is spent trying to turn your body 90 degrees correctly, so that puts things in perspective :)

David Bailey
8th-March-2007, 10:11 AM
I thought your name was a take on fahrenheit 451 and was the temperature at which stray cats spontaneuosly combust. I think you're sick, sick , SICK :)
So, deathmatch back on then?


My. Name. Is. STRAYCAT!
For now... :waycool:

straycat
8th-March-2007, 11:42 AM
For now... :waycool:

:what: :sick:

Where's that architect when you need him.... FRANCK! HELP!!!!

David Bailey
8th-March-2007, 11:45 AM
:what: :sick:

Where's that architect when you need him.... FRANCK! HELP!!!!
Did anyone else think "What a d1ck" when he went on monologuing at the end of "Reloaded"?

That's the Architect, not Franck :flower: :)

Dreadful Scathe
8th-March-2007, 12:18 PM
If Franck ran the Matrix it would be beautifully designed, mostly white and iPod compatible ;)

Beowulf
12th-March-2007, 02:39 PM
Anti-Yo-yo brigade eh? Careful, you'll upset Beo.

Speaking of which, where's Beo?

I'm here.. Lurking.

was P***ed off with all the C*** on the forum (Hi Mr Kettle.. I'm Mr Pot.. and you're Black!) so I took a sabbatical from the forum.

Am now a dedicated lurker/stalker .. a ghost in the machine..

whoOOOooOOOoo WhoOOOooOOOoo http://www.skyfall.co.uk/forum/ghost.gif

Gav
12th-March-2007, 02:40 PM
I'm here.. Lurking.

was P***ed off with all the C*** on the forum (Hi Mr Kettle.. I'm Mr Pot.. and you're Black!) so I took a sabbatical from the forum.

Am now a dedicated lurker/stalker .. a ghost in the machine..

whoOOOooOOOoo WhoOOOooOOOoo http://www.skyfall.co.uk/forum/ghost.gif

Sorry, did you used to be on the forum?
The name doesn't sound familiar. :na::na::na::D:D:D

Double Trouble
12th-March-2007, 02:44 PM
Beo..I tried to PM you but can't.

Just wanted to say I miss your posts and please come back.

Tell me who p1ssed you off and I'll I'll get snuffemquietly.com on the case.:mad:

Dreadful Scathe
12th-March-2007, 03:02 PM
lets hope it wasnt you then ? ;)


..oh..maybe it was me....

btw www.snuffemquietly.com does not exist so you may want to register it :)

Beowulf
12th-March-2007, 03:06 PM
Beo..I tried to PM you but can't.

Just wanted to say I miss your posts and please come back.

Tell me who p1ssed you off and I'll I'll get snuffemquietly.com on the case.:mad:

Sorry I had PM's turned off.. have turned PM receiving back on again

*puts a sign saying "INBOX" over the hopper on the top of his shredder* :wink: