The differences between MJ and Salsa

[David Bailey]

Whilst we're at it (I know, crazy talking-about-dance fad, it'll never last):

MJ: 2-beat basic rhythm, as per most western Pop music.
Salsa: "clave" basic rhythm, as per Rumba-family dances.

[Dreadful Scathe]

dont you know anything?....the difference between MJ and Salsa is called "Ceroc" ! :)

[Wes]

The difference between modern jive and salsa is..... FOOTWORK!

[Dreadful Scathe]

...and hips :)

[Gadget]

And turns seemingly - I'm told that Salsa tend to "step-turn" rather than spin or rotate.

[straycat]

And turns seemingly - I'm told that Salsa tend to "step-turn" rather than spin or rotate.

So do a lot of jivers. Including me ;)

[Trousers]

Ones made from capital letters the other onions and tomato!

[Mr Cool]

I love and respect all forms of dancing however:flower:
I have yet to observe salsa tought or danced well to the music.:flower:
Salsa dancer tell me how technical salsa is, they talk about the beat and how the different styles begin on beat one or two :rolleyes:
The reality is a dance that is danced to fast repetative un inspiring music and 98% just wiggle and sadly ignor the music .:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Come in guys gals get it together dance salsa / rumba to the fantastic choice of great latin real dance music and move to the music :wink: :wink:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

[Anna]

Whilst we're at it (I know, crazy talking-about-dance fad, it'll never last):

MJ: 2-beat basic rhythm, as per most western Pop music.
Salsa: "clave" basic rhythm, as per Rumba-family dances.

The differences between Modern Jive and Salsa are so truly infinite that I find it astounding that you can compare the two like that?!

First of all, Salsa was around first. So most MJ moves are actually Salsa moves without designated timing, body movement or footwork.

And the rhythm of Salsa does not just come from the Clave, it comes from a combination of instruments and often the use of pause and syncopation. The Clave does not always necessarily hold the pattern of '1,2,3..5,6,7" and there are many different Clave rhythms, not just one. The most commonly heard clave rhythms are 2/3, 3/2 and 4/4. - Please see TOsalsa.com -- Salsa Dancing in Toronto and more! (http://www.tosalsa.com) for an excellent explanation of this, it also explains which rhythms are best for dancing NY on2 Salsa.

Also, to be honest, after watching and working with some amazing Salsa dancers for about 2 years now and not doing any MJ, last week when I saw a video of a VERY famous MJ couple (who shall remain unnamed), I was completely unimpressed.

Undoubtedly they are very good at MJ, but in comparison to the skill that some of the world's Salsa professionals have, they do not compare.

Even Advanced and Intermediate Salsa dancers in comparison to the same level MJ dancers are technically, far more skilled and "better" dancers. I'm not saying that to be rude but it's a fact. Salsa & Mambo (and for arguements sake, westcoast swing too) are much more difficult than MJ and so anybody who is a good dancer of those dancers is going to be streets ahead of somebody who is a good dancer of MJ only.

The thing that always get's me about MJ is that the dance has no story. Sure they try to sell it with the "made in WW2 France" tag on it, but then somewhere after that, it's history becomes very muddled until James Cronin emerges.

MJ has no specific music, it has no specific body movement, it has no specific "atmosphere" (like Tango for example), it has no traditional costume, it has no particular language, it has no original moves. MJ seems to lack originality completely, especially when compared with a dance like Mambo, which is danced to Salsa music, has a highly recognisable latin contra-body movement, a fun/cheeky atmosphere, spanish language and completely original moves.

Even the rhythms in Salsa music have names and each one of those has its own story, atmosphere, costume, catch phrase, terminology, body movement and dance style.

So stick that in your pipe and smoke it Ceroc!

Okay, rant over. The end. :rofl:

[Anna]

And turns seemingly - I'm told that Salsa tend to "step-turn" rather than spin or rotate.

That's something they teach to beginners, later on they teach students how to spin.


The reality is a dance that is danced to fast repetative un inspiring music and 98% just wiggle and sadly ignor the music.

The good salsa dancers do dance to the music. If you're talking about Cuban style then yes, they tend to just go with the flow but LA & NY style are orientated almost completely around musicality.

[David Bailey]

That's something they teach to beginners, later on they teach students how to spin.
Cor, that must be in those Advanced Salsa Classes that the Cool People go to. I never saw a spin being taugh in a salsa class, but they were probably hiding it from me.

Or, possibly, it's taught different in different countries? Just a thought... :whistle:


The good salsa dancers do dance to the music. If you're talking about Cuban style then yes, they tend to just go with the flow but LA & NY style are orientated almost completely around musicality.
Hmmm.... possibly, but I'm not convinced on that one either - certainly I've not noticed more musicality in, say, cross-body-lead style dancing than in others. I suspect the variations in dancing ability are far more important than the variations in form.

[David Bailey]

The differences between Modern Jive and Salsa are so truly infinite that I find it astounding that you can compare the two like that?!
The game is that you each pick one difference, that allows us all to play... :rolleyes:

But OK, I'll bite:


First of all, Salsa was around first.
Arguable. Yes, salsa originated (more or less) in the mid-70s, Ceroc originated in the early 1980s - but both dance forms trace their origins back to other dances (lindy hop for Ceroc / MJ, and rumba family for salsa).


So most MJ moves are actually Salsa moves without designated timing, body movement or footwork.
Wrong. There's no real connection between MJ and salsa, despite the marketing hype.

Yes, it's certainly possible to develop a dancing style that fuses elements of these two forms - that's the way I danced up until a couple of years ago. And yes, there's a lot of "latino Ceroc" classes around. But they're two different dances, based on two different dance traditions.

It's like saying "English is a variant of French because English has some French words".



And the rhythm of Salsa does not just come from the Clave, it comes from a combination of instruments and often the use of pause and syncopation.
Fair enough, but I was trying to put it simply...


Also, to be honest, after watching and working with some amazing Salsa dancers for about 2 years now and not doing any MJ, last week when I saw a video of a VERY famous MJ couple (who shall remain unnamed), I was completely unimpressed.
I'd agree that the standard of the top salsa dancers is much better than the standard of the top MJ dancers.

But then, the same applies (I think) to WCS vs. MJ, definitely to AT vs. MJ, and absolutely to the top ballroom dancers vs. MJ.


Undoubtedly they are very good at MJ, but in comparison to the skill that some of the world's Salsa professionals have, they do not compare.
True - but that's not a reflection on how good salsa is, it's a reflection on how low MJ standards are.

For example, I believe that the average AT dancers are better than the average salsa dancers - I suspect that WCS dancers could also give salseros a run for the money.


The thing that always get's me about MJ is that the dance has no story. Sure they try to sell it with the "made in WW2 France" tag on it, but then somewhere after that, it's history becomes very muddled until James Cronin emerges.
:rofl: You're kidding, right?

You think that salsa has a clear history? Even the people who were there can't agree on how it started. Or where. Or when.

Personally, whenever this comes up, I go with this version, from And123...salsa! (http://www.and123.co.uk:)

History of Salsa version 152

Salsa was invented by Hank Marvin and Una Stubbs on the set of Summer Holiday. It was first exploited in a Shake and Vac commercial in the 1970's which was subsequently seen by visiting delegates of an Icelandic trading mission. It became their national dance soon after and featured in their Eurovision song contest entry in 1982. Following that exposure it took only 13 years for the craze to sweep scout huts and awkwardly-located nightclubs in the back streets of nearly eleven towns on most Tuesdays in February.

Anyway...

MJ has no specific music, it has no specific body movement, it has no specific "atmosphere" (like Tango for example), it has no traditional costume, it has no particular language, it has no original moves. MJ seems to lack originality completely, especially when compared with a dance like Mambo, which is danced to Salsa music, has a highly recognisable latin contra-body movement, a fun/cheeky atmosphere, spanish language and completely original moves.
Well, I'm amazed you pollute your being by posting on this forum - careful, you may catch MJ-itis or something... :rolleyes:

Seriously, what have you got against MJ? What's it ever done to you? If people are enjoying themselves partner dancing, why's that a bad thing?

To me, the bottom line is that good dancers can dance well to anything, there are no original dances, and no dances are "better" (or "sexier" for that matter) than others.

This thread was supposed to be a "list the differences", not a "rant at MJ" thread.

[Dreadful Scathe]

The differences between Modern Jive and Salsa are so truly infinite that I find it astounding that you can compare the two like that?!

Truly infinite? Rather than, say, partially infinite? Got to be clear here :)


First of all, Salsa was around first. So most MJ moves are actually Salsa moves without designated timing, body movement or footwork.

Oh very clever pointing out Modern Jive is fairly modern and its not just a clever name :) But it has roots in other things and is hard to tell how old "jive" is.
Likewise you do find there are different versions of salsa and its hard to tell how old that is. It has evolved just as every other dance style has. To say MJ moves are salsa moves is nonsense, many of the same moves are in ice skating and Scottish Country Dancing, to name but 2 - are they derived from Salsa too ? :)



Also, to be honest, after watching and working with some amazing Salsa dancers for about 2 years now and not doing any MJ, last week when I saw a video of a VERY famous MJ couple (who shall remain unnamed), I was completely unimpressed.

Me too. I can say that about most dance styles in fact, but then again I dont know any who make a living as Modern Jive professionals with no income other than from dance (other than franchise owners anway) .


Undoubtedly they are very good at MJ, but in comparison to the skill that some of the world's Salsa professionals have, they do not compare.

Its not a fair comparison to try to make. That doesnt make the thread less valid, because there are still similarities between all forms of dance. Theres no need to be a dance snob about it. ;)


Even Advanced and Intermediate Salsa dancers in comparison to the same level MJ dancers are technically, far more skilled and "better" dancers. I'm not saying that to be rude but it's a fact. Salsa & Mambo (and for arguements sake, westcoast swing too) are much more difficult than MJ and so anybody who is a good dancer of those dancers is going to be streets ahead of somebody who is a good dancer of MJ only.

Specific body movement, musicality and specific footwork may not be taught to any great degree in MJ but people can and do learn elements of this and often go onto other dances. I agree though, something like Salsa is much more difficult because the dance is definied with this 3 things, but it also makes a far steeper learning curve and people will take far, far longer to become intermediate. Not so in Jive, but thats not bad. As a social dance jive is great. As a dance form in its own right it is only limited by the people practicing it.


The thing that always get's me about MJ is that the dance has no story.

A dance form needs a story? what sort of story are you looking for? I like the AT one "in the brothels of Buenos Aires...".

Anyway in Scotland we have (read with film trailer narration voice): "A Frenchman with something to prove. A country who couldn't dance to Kylie. Two worlds collide in a swish of orange kilt. A new era. Of dance. Ceroc Scotland ........the Movie."


MJ has no specific music, it has no specific body movement, it has no specific "atmosphere" (like Tango for example), it has no traditional costume, it has no particular language, it has no original moves.

Its as original as any other evolving modern dance and some people do like the openness of jive in contrast to the very closed style of something like salsa :) After all easy dance is still dance, and dance is sometime not something you do purely to impress people like you who prefer some other style ;)

[David Bailey]

Truly infinite? Rather than, say, partially infinite? Got to be clear here :)
:rofl: I got corrected by my English teacher for putting "literally endless" in one of my essays once, the lesson stuck with me...


I agree though, something like Salsa is much more difficult because the dance is definied with this 3 things, but it also makes a far steeper learning curve and people will take far, far longer to become intermediate.
Weeelll, yes, but salsa is still easier than a lot of other dances - I think there was a "dance difficulty" thread sometime back wasn't there?


A dance form needs a story? what sort of story are you looking for? I like the AT one "in the brothels of Buenos Aires...".
No dance can be bad if brothels are involved at any point. That's the First Law, that is.


Anyway in Scotland we have (read with film trailer narration voice): "A Frenchman with something to prove. A country who couldn't dance to Kylie. Two worlds collide in a swish of orange kilt. A new era. Of dance. Ceroc Scotland ........the Movie."
Nice one - do you reckon we could get the gravelly-voiced voiceover man to do it? Coz that'd be :waycool:

Anyway, if I wanted to diss salsa, I could say, for example:

he music is usually rubbish, and very same-y
Everyone's much less friendly in the club scene
There's too much focus on footwork patterns and none on connection
There's little consistency in move terminology
etc.


But I don't, because I'm above that sort of thing... :innocent:

[straycat]

The good salsa dancers do dance to the music. If you're talking about Cuban style then yes, they tend to just go with the flow but LA & NY style are orientated almost completely around musicality.

Hmmm.... possibly, but I'm not convinced on that one either - certainly I've not noticed more musicality in, say, cross-body-lead style dancing than in others. I suspect the variations in dancing ability are far more important than the variations in form.

Have to back Anna on this one - a great example is a couple of teachers from Leeds - Nicholai & Helena - their musicality is amazing, and I never tire of watching them. The majority of Salsa that I've seen, yes, is pretty unmusical and repetitious, but I think that's more a reflection on my local Salsa scene than on the dance itself.

Music likewise - most Salsa nights - well - I can pretty much take or leave the music (often I'd prefer to leave it) - but there's a couple of DJs I know who play amazing sets, where I could happily dance all night.

In essence - most Salsa venues I've been to have, unfortunately helped reinforce this 'dull, repetious' steroetype... but luckily I've seen just enough to realise that this has been misleading in the extreme.

[Dreadful Scathe]

:rofl: I got corrected by my English teacher for putting "literally endless" in one of my essays once, the lesson stuck with me...

If you're essays are anything like your posts i can see why you thought that was apt :) ;)



Weeelll, yes, but salsa is still easier than a lot of other dances - I think there was a "dance difficulty" thread sometime back wasn't there?

It may well be easier than others but your depths of irrelevance are extraordinary : i was only comparing jive to salsa, not salsa to ballet :)




Anyway, if I wanted to diss salsa, I could say, for example

You forgot "more dance snobs" :)

[David Bailey]

It may well be easier than others but your depths of irrelevance are extraordinary
Oooh, "Extraordinary depths of irrelevance", now that's a cool sig :)

[straycat]

Anyway, if I wanted to diss salsa, I could say, for example:

he music is usually rubbish, and very same-y
Everyone's much less friendly in the club scene
There's too much focus on footwork patterns and none on connection
There's little consistency in move terminology
etc.


While, of course, realising that at least two of the above can equally be applied to far too many MJ venues :whistle:
Actually - make that 'at least one' - 'cos far too many MJ venues focus on neither footwork patterns NOR connection :devil:



But I don't, because I'm above that sort of thing... :innocent:
Not to mention the fact that none of us are into over-generalising on this forum :waycool: :innocent:

[Mr Cool]

It's like saying "English is a variant of French because English has some French words".







I'd agree that the standard of the top salsa dancers is much better than the standard of the top MJ dancers.

But then, the same applies (I think) to WCS vs. MJ, definitely to AT vs. MJ, and absolutely to the top ballroom dancers vs. MJ.


True - but that's not a reflection on how good salsa is, it's a reflection on how low MJ standards are.

For example, I believe that the average AT dancers are better than the average salsa dancers - I suspect that WCS dancers could also give salseros a run for the money.

I am sorry david There are as many poor AT and ballroom dancers as MJ dancers :rolleyes:
In fact poor dancers of whatever discipline tend to find all other disciplines of dance a struggle. and the reverse is true.:whistle:
My problem with Salsa is the repetitive boring music which 99% totally ignor:yeah:

I find it so sad when you consider the wide range of superb latin music they should be
dancing to:clap: :clap: :clap:
Why don't salsa people demand good music :confused:
Come on guys gals ask for real dance music :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

[David Bailey]

I am sorry david There are as many poor AT and ballroom dancers as MJ dancers :rolleyes:
Hmmm... that one's tricky to dispute, it's so subjective.

But taking AT as an example, because I know it, I'd definitely argue that people learning AT are often more dance-experienced than MJ-ers, so have a bit of a headstart that way.

Also, the fact that AT more often than not focusses on technique instead of moves, means that on average, a year of AT classes will, I think, teach you more about dance than a year of MJ classes (of course, technique being much harder, the downside is that fewer people stick AT out for a year than MJ-ers do).


In fact poor dancers of whatever discipline tend to find all other disciplines of dance a struggle. and the reverse is true.:whistle:
Probably, but that doesn't make all dances as easy to learn as others. For example, Merengue is probably the easiest dance on the planet to learn - you can sum it up as "wriggling around a bit".

Some dances do have much much steeper learning curves than others - that's just the way it is.

Learning salsa is more difficult than MJ, and I think it means that the "top end" in salsa is higher than the "top end" in MJ. No pain, no gain in other words.


My problem with Salsa is the repetitive boring music which 99% totally ignor:yeah:
:yeah: Absolutely agree. I reckon there's about 10 classic salsa tracks produced every decade - all the others are junk.


I find it so sad when you consider the wide range of superb latin music they should be
dancing to:clap: :clap: :clap:
Why don't salsa people demand good music :confused:
Again, :yeah: - and it's a very good question.

[StokeBloke]

MJ has no specific music, it has no specific body movement, it has no specific "atmosphere" (like Tango for example), it has no traditional costume, it has no particular language, it has no original moves. MJ seems to lack originality completely, especially when compared with a dance like Mambo, which is danced to Salsa music, has a highly recognisable latin contra-body movement, a fun/cheeky atmosphere, spanish language and completely original moves.
You say that like it's a bad thing :D

Seriously one of the great things about MJ is the lack of framework - a dance form in the making. Meaning it is easy to learn, adapt and add to. Ceroc has some snobbery to it in places, but I cannot begin to imagine how many Salsa dance snobs there are.

Give me a floor, some music and a Fletch and I will have loads of fun - no props, special clothes, costume or history lesson required :wink: Sometimes less really can be more y'know. So, take your serious dancing etiquette, footwork, history lessons, dull Latin music and .... ummm put them into your pipe and smoke 'em :flower:


N.B. I reserve the right to completely change my mind when I get
bored with MJ and want something more challenging.

[David Bailey]

I cannot begin to imagine how many Salsa dance snobs there are.
Let's just say "A lot" and leave it at that... :wink:

[spindr]

Cor, that must be in those Advanced Salsa Classes that the Cool People go to. I never saw a spin being taugh in a salsa class, but they were probably hiding it from me.

Or, possibly, it's taught different in different countries? Just a thought... :whistle:
Nah, just depends on your "level" -- probably step turns in absolute beginners, beginners and improvers. We get a *lot* of spinning technique taught in the intermediate classes I've been to -- followers are taught to double spin without paddling/skateboarding, etc. Come along to Newbury if you're free on a Monday.

SpinDr

[David Bailey]

Nah, just depends on your "level" -- probably step turns in absolute beginners, beginners and improvers. We get a *lot* of spinning technique taught in the intermediate classes I've been to -- followers are taught to double spin without paddling/skateboarding, etc. Come along to Newbury if you're free on a Monday.

Newbury? That' miles away that is.

But fair enough, I sit corrected :)

Just to be clear, these are free spins, yes? There's not many free-spin moves I can think of in salsa - there's a, well, "man-spin" equivalent I do in both MJ and salsa, which flickspins the lady clockwise as I travel past, but not many others...

[straycat]

My problem with Salsa is the repetitive boring music which 99% totally ignor:yeah:

I find it so sad when you consider the wide range of superb latin music they should be dancing to

Leeds. Look up Nicolai and Helena's classes. Nicolai plays amazing and varied music (and trust me - I am very fussy about music), and they're both phenomenal and very musical dancers / teachers.

I agree there are way too many Salsa venues where the music is dull / uninspiring / repetitious. But exactly the same is true about MJ, so (back on topic) I don't really see this as a difference between the two...

[Anna]

Let's just say "A lot" and leave it at that... :wink:

*Points at "Hardened Salsa Snob" T-shirt* See! :D

Anyway.. I agree with virtually all of those replies in one way or another, just wanted to stir the pot a little bit (he he).. No dance appeals to everyone and I'm biased to Salsa anyway as my family are partially Hispanic so that beautiful music people keep knocking for being boring, really is beautiful to me because I know what it's about!

So although I unfortunately no longer hold Modern Jive in as high esteem as Salsa, WCS or AT, it does have many good habits (along with its bad ones, yes, yes) that benefit dancers who then move on to other styles.

I can thank Modern Jive for giving me an introduction to the following:

- spinning
- leader/follower connection & cross pressure
- correct posture and body carriage in "show moves" such as dips, drops & aerials
- basic competition experience
- how to "follow" virtually anyone with any style of lead
- and a relatively friendly (family orientated here in NZ!) environment that allowed me to begin to grow my passion for dance

So even though there's a lot of things I don't like (and I could talk about them all day but I won't :devil: ) I have to give it that much. And MJ does also make a lot of people who may not necessarily enjoy the other dance styles, very happy. And that's definitely worth something!

When it comes down to it, any dance is a good dance, as long as we are dancing!

:clap: