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View Full Version : The differences between MJ and WCS



Lory
1st-March-2007, 12:26 PM
Inspired by TA Guys Post
If someone wants to start threads on either;
"The difference between a WCS connection and a MJ connection"
or
"What's involved in a WCS connection"
or somesuch,
I will happily contribute, otherwise this is veering a little off-topic and much as I love the topics, I don't want to be spanked.

I'll start it off

In simplistic terms.....

MJ, the lead is continuous. i.e. the follow should follow wherever her hand is lead.

WCS, the lead only provides the impedes, then is free to let go and the follow should finish the move

Caro
1st-March-2007, 12:41 PM
I'll add my bit:

In MJ the lead can happen anytime (unless the follow makes it clear she highjacks or plays)

In WSC the lead happens only if and when the follow has re-established the normal level of connection for the dance (at the end of the anchor step). i.e. if the follow doesn't re-establish connection (to a higher degree than the very light connection used during travelling to the end of the slot), the lead must assume she still requires time to finish her move and should not lead her into the next move (pattern).

(Great thread Lory :D )

Lory
1st-March-2007, 12:59 PM
My go again...

MJ has no (firm rules on) footwork

WCS has 2 basic patterns, 6 count (step, step, tripplestep tripplestep) and 8 count (step step, tripplestep, step step, tripplestep)

Plus styling steps like locksteps and weaves

Caro
1st-March-2007, 01:09 PM
My go again...



me likes that ping-pong game :wink:

In MJ the follow can highjack but it is appreciated to various degrees by the leads and generally should be done in moderation. 'Invitation moves' are not used regularly by the average dancer.

In WCS the follow is expected to do her own stuff and extend / change the moves (and the word 'highjack' doesn't seem to be used much). 'Invitation moves' are used very regularly even by beginner dancers.

In a few words, WCS gives more space and opportunity to the follow to contribute to the dance. (:clap: )

Dreadful Scathe
1st-March-2007, 01:22 PM
at beginner to lower intermediate level in both dances....

WCS. moving your body should move your arm and in turn move you partner, the connection is that strong - the connection is everything

MJ. you sometimes have to resort to sheer strength to get someone to follow a lead (or just give up trying) ....example is DJs quote on not being able to get a follower to step back on a different foot. Why ? because connection is barely mentioned at this level in MJ

MartinHarper
1st-March-2007, 01:38 PM
MJ: a light forward force on the follower's hand means she should step forward.
WCS: a light forward force on the follower's hand either means she should step forward, or it means that she should match pressure and anchor in place.
(an example of different dances having different lead/follow)

----

MJ: follower rock-steps or steps in place on 1,2 of a move.
WCS: follower steps forward twice on 1,2 of a move.

Lory
1st-March-2007, 02:27 PM
MJ was developed as a circular dance (although can be danced in a slotted style, which has become more fashionable of late)

WCS - One of the main characteristics of WCS is the slotted style!

robd
1st-March-2007, 03:28 PM
MJ has no set legwear

WCS works best wearing jeans :D

Dizzy
1st-March-2007, 03:40 PM
MJ - The follower steps back at the beginning or the end of a move.

WCS - The follower will hardly ever step back - The connection is nearly always forward.

Caro
1st-March-2007, 04:18 PM
WCS - The follower will hardly ever step back - The connection is nearly always forward.

:yeah: however although at the beginning of a pattern the follow steps foward, the initial movement (on the 'and a' before the 'one') is actually to move her center slightly backwards (before she indeed moves her center forward and steps forward).

I believe it's an heritage from the other swing dances such as lindy that use a rock step ? (at least, that's what Yuval said... am just repeating, me :innocent: )

Lory
1st-March-2007, 04:51 PM
MJ: There are 20 (?) beginner moves
WCS: There are only 4 basic moves but they take forever to perfect!:tears:

Sugar Push
Left side pass
Right side pass
Whip

TheTramp
1st-March-2007, 04:57 PM
MJ was developed as a circular dance (although can be danced in a slotted style, which has become more fashionable of late)

WCS - One of the main characteristics of WCS is the slotted style!

I disagree with this.

MJ is, and always has been taught almost exclusively in a slotted style from the stage. It's the un-awareness of the (majority of?) followers, who tend to move in a clockwise circular direction during the dance, mainly because of not doing returns on the spot that makes it into a circular dance.

So, it's certainly never been developed as a circular dance, although, for the majority of people doing it, I'd agree that's how it's done. I can only speak for myself, but I was dancing in a 'slotted' fashion long before I'd ever heard of WCS. Though, I'm not saying that's necessarily a good thing. Just my own preference.

I'd also suggest that the slotted style is only more fashionable in 0.1% (yes, it's a made-up statistic to indicate that I think that the number is very low) of the general modern jive population. If you went to almost any MJ club, I suggest that very few people there would know what a slot is. It's likely that the number would become much smaller outside of the forum population as well. Again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Dizzy
1st-March-2007, 04:58 PM
MJ - You dance on every other beat in a bar of music.

WCS - You dance on and through every count from 1-8 in a bar of music.

Lory
1st-March-2007, 05:09 PM
I disagree with this.
~Snip~ lots of true stuff


I take it back. What I should have said was....

MJ: has no defined rules, as to the direction the dancers travel in. It is neither a requirement or right or wrong to travel round in circles or dance in a slot!

WCS: The slotted style in one of the defining characteristics of the dance


Howszat? :D

Geordieed
2nd-March-2007, 09:35 AM
MJers nick lots of WCS for their routines but it doesn't seem to happen in the opposite direction.

Trousers
2nd-March-2007, 10:13 AM
Which is the one with the biggest Clicque i just can't remember

:rolleyes: :cool: :whistle:

Keith J
2nd-March-2007, 10:45 AM
WCS- teaches and encourages small subtle preperation, stillness in upper torso for emphasis on body lead

MJ - teaches signals, large preperation, no body shape for visual lead

WCS - is a Pro & Am, competition & social dance worldwide

MJ - is a social dance mainly in UK & Aus'

Lory
2nd-March-2007, 11:29 AM
MJ: The intermediate MJ classes I've been to, teach 4 moves, with little or no aim of fitting them into a phrase of music. (I know there must be some exceptions:) )

WCS: In the intermediate WCS classes i've attended, the routine is always choreographed to fit a 'phrase' of music e.g. 32beats..
highlighting the accents and breaks. We will be taught how (and where) to extend moves or cut moves by 2 or 4 beats to make the routine fit!

I think this helps to promote musical awareness.:nice:

Geordieed
2nd-March-2007, 12:41 PM
MJ is one of the very best introductions to structured dancing whether it be Salsa, A.Tango, WCS or many many other dance forms.


I don't think many other dances again Salsa, A.Tango , WCS etc. can boast the numbers that Ceroc have attracted in its many years.

Caro
2nd-March-2007, 12:51 PM
MJ is one of the very best introductions to structured dancing whether it be Salsa, A.Tango, WCS or many many other dance forms.


:yeah: if it wasn't for Ceroc, I wouldn't be dancing today... It's a fabulous way to introduce people to the world of dancing and help them realise that, yes, they can dance, and even more important, have an awful lot of fun in the process (way too much in fact, says dancing junkie me :D ).

David Bailey
2nd-March-2007, 01:51 PM
:yeah: if it wasn't for Ceroc, I wouldn't be dancing today... It's a fabulous way to introduce people to the world of dancing and help them realise that, yes, they can dance, and even more important, have an awful lot of fun in the process (way too much in fact, says dancing junkie me :D ).
OK, but where's the "differences" part? Come on, let's keep on topic...

MJ: danced everywhere in the UK
WCS: danced in, well, SW London I think... :)

Caro
2nd-March-2007, 01:55 PM
OK, but where's the "differences" part? Come on, let's keep on topic...


:blush:

I have the feeling that in MJ the average age of dancers is slightly higher than in WCS, which seems to attract more to the (relative) younger public?
Or is it just me?

timbp
2nd-March-2007, 01:56 PM
WCS: In the intermediate WCS classes i've attended, the routine is always choreographed to fit a 'phrase' of music e.g. 32beats..
I have been to classes where the intermediate routine is designed to fit a phrase of the music.
But I don't recall any explanation of how to shorten or extend beginnner moves to fit the phrase.
We might be taught a shortened or extended move, but with no relatiion to the begiinnner move (that is, no explanation like "this is move [x] but with two walks at count [y]")

So the classes I've seen do not actually teach how to adjust moves to fit the music. They teach a sequence that, if you use it (starting at the right time), will match a musical phrase.

That is, they are teaching moves, but relating them to a particular start point in the music.

Dizzy
2nd-March-2007, 01:58 PM
WCS: danced in, well, SW London I think... :)

erm.....try SW London as well as Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol, Surrey, Northampton and Northern England (will have to rely on Gus, Keith and Jamie for where they dance) .

David Bailey
2nd-March-2007, 02:04 PM
erm.....try SW London as well as Edinburgh, Glasgow, Bristol, Surrey, Northampton and Northern England (will have to rely on Gus, Keith and Jamie for where they dance) .
Yeah, but it's mainly clumped around the SW London area, innit? At least, judging from what I've seen and heard...

Oh, and Oakwood, apparently.

Lory
2nd-March-2007, 02:10 PM
So the classes I've seen do not actually teach how to adjust moves to fit the music. They teach a sequence that, if you use it (starting at the right time), will match a musical phrase.


Thats a shame, its one of the things I've found most enlightening. Cat and Lee are always showing different ways of altering the timing of moves to help you hit a break.

Brady
2nd-March-2007, 03:46 PM
Yeah, but it's mainly clumped around the SW London area, innit? At least, judging from what I've seen and heard...

Oh, and Oakwood, apparently.

Actually I think Scotland is currently offering the most opportunities for WCS during the week with two nights each in/around Edinburgh and Glasgow, plus workshops on almost every weekend lately.

Brady

David Bailey
2nd-March-2007, 03:59 PM
Actually I think Scotland is currently offering the most opportunities for WCS during the week with two nights each in/around Edinburgh and Glasgow, plus workshops on almost every weekend lately.
Scotland?
Scot-land??
Where is this place of which you speak? Is it in North or South Finchley? :na:

Minnie M
2nd-March-2007, 04:50 PM
Actually I think Scotland is currently offering the most opportunities for WCS during the week with two nights each in/around Edinburgh and Glasgow, plus workshops on almost every weekend lately.

Brady

:respect:

Dorothy
2nd-March-2007, 07:56 PM
We are truly spoilt for choice up here, with MJ all over, Lindy Hop at 3 venues in Edinburgh and 1 in Glasgow, WCS in Edinburgh & Livingstone, & Blues in Fife! I am thinking of going to WCS in Dundee with Lindsay tomorrow and Blues with Fran and Bill in Fife on 10th. Anything else coming up?

graham fox
5th-March-2007, 04:51 PM
I really feel Scotland is doing great with west coast swing and im glad to see more and more people working together to provide the opportunity for everyone to take part and help it develop. After Sundays workshop I was mentally and physically tired as im sure anyone who was there felt the same. However the standard was great and the buzz of the west coast swing was brill. :grin:

I feel at social nights alot who do modern jive find it difficult to dance mj then do a wcs straight after as the dance and styling are so different. Its a dance that takes a few dances in a row to tune into. Whats your thoughts?

Rhythm King
5th-March-2007, 08:26 PM
I feel at social nights alot who do modern jive find it difficult to dance mj then do a wcs straight after as the dance and styling are so different. Its a dance that takes a few dances in a row to tune into. Whats your thoughts?

It's funny you should say that - I find it goes both ways. There are some songs that I can't help but add footwork to, even if my partner is not a WCS dancer and if she is, then the dance just seems to end up as one, even if it started out as MJ :rolleyes:

On the other hand I do need to warm up properly with WCS dancing, as angelblue and Caro can testify to :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: