Should the follower ever move the leader's hand?

[DavidY]

I dunno if this is really obvious or not.. but it occurred to me that when someone's following I don't expect them to move my "connected" hand(s), because I expect to lead the movement.

Is this right? Is it too simplistic?

An obvious example of when I think my hand shouldn't be moved is when I'm trying to keep my hand level and the person who's following is trying to bounce it...

[Green-eyed Monsta]

It depends on what your hand is "connecting" with!!:what:
I've had to move a few hands off my @rse from time to time :whistle:

(Of course there are also some hands I'll leave there! :yum:)

[Minnie M]

I dunno if this is really obvious or not.. but it occurred to me that when someone's following I don't expect them to move my "connected" hand(s), because I expect to lead the movement.

Is this right? Is it too simplistic?.....
:yeah:
By moving the lead's hand (when leading the dance that is :rolleyes: ) the follower is in fact trying to take over the dance (or backleading) which IMHO is a definite NO NO :flower:

[Lee Bartholomew]

I've had a few leads that have a habit of Clothes lining me if I don't lift the hand.

It's fine if the follow is sabotaging the move.

[Lynn]

I dunno if this is really obvious or not.. but it occurred to me that when someone's following I don't expect them to move my "connected" hand(s), because I expect to lead the movement.

Is this right? Is it too simplistic? This is correct. I might sometimes give some indication through the hand connection that I want to 'play', not sure if I move it or not. (And no I don't insist, I ask.)


An obvious example of when I think my hand shouldn't be moved is when I'm trying to keep my hand level and the person who's following is trying to bounce it...Ah this.... yes, I had a lead comment last night on a follower who leads a large semi circle at the start of a dance, literally wrenching his hand round. He can't find any way of stopping her.

But back to the bouncing hands thing - some leads like to do it, some follows like to do it - its when those that don't try to dance with those that do, usually the non bouncer has to give in.

[spindr]

A lot of followers will pull the hand down after (the rotational part of) a turn -- anticipating a step back to be led -- which can get annoying.

Generalising, followers also shouldn't move their hands from where the leader has placed them -- either :)

SpinDr

[Minnie M]

I've had a few leads that have a habit of Clothes lining me if I don't lift the hand.

It's fine if the follow is sabotaging the move.

I find 'sabotaging' such a strong word - I like to 'play' when dancing, but only with the 'permission' of my lead

A good lead will know when and where to give the follower the space to 'play' and should be able to tell if the follower wants to 'play'

DavidY is a fab lead and gives the follower lots of space to 'play' however, I don't think I have ever 'sabotaged' the dance.

[straycat]

'Course they will move your connected hand. Connection is two-way, and you feel their input as much as they feel yours. Move it in such a way as to take over the lead? A different question. If you have any degree of tension/compression-style connection though, your hand will be moved by the follower's actions - there is no way that can fail to happen.

[DavidY]

'Course they will move your connected hand. Connection is two-way, and you feel their input as much as they feel yours. ... but that doesn't necessarily mean followers have to move the leader's hand. The connection could be in their (possibly slight) resistance to the leader's movement, rather than movements initiated by the follower. I think, anyway?

[Caro]

I dunno if this is really obvious or not.. but it occurred to me that when someone's following I don't expect them to move my "connected" hand(s), because I expect to lead the movement.

Is this right? Is it too simplistic?


I'd say normally not, except for what comes to just moving and dancing like SC said (I think).

Having said that, there's one thing that I have just started doing (actually, just did it once so far, trying hard to behave here :innocent: ), which is as I play, to squeeze the lead's hand slightly (so he understand something's happening and I am taking over the control of his hand) and lead a comb (to him - as I finish playing).
Opportunities to do that (both in terms of timing wrt to the music and the lead letting me play in the first time) have been very rare so far though. Shame :devil:

[MartinHarper]

I dunno if this is really obvious or not.. but it occurred to me that when someone's following I don't expect them to move my "connected" hand(s), because I expect to lead the movement.

Is this right? Is it too simplistic?

Counter-example: "In And Out", lead with a bit of vigour, so there's some nice compression on the "in" part. Think 4-beat WCS sugar push.
Now, have the man abruptly acquire spaghetti arms on the next "in" part. Result: follower moves the leader's hands (probably ending up hugging him or headbutting him).

More generally, if the leader gives the follower momentum, and then catches and redirects that momentum, then his hands/arms will be moved by the follower's momentum. If they don't move, then it's going to be uncomfortable for the follower.

[David Bailey]

I dunno if this is really obvious or not.. but it occurred to me that when someone's following I don't expect them to move my "connected" hand(s), because I expect to lead the movement.

Is this right? Is it too simplistic?
That sounds right to me - I can't offhand think about any normal occasion where the follower should independently start waving their connected hand about; that'd be leading, IMO.

[LMC]

Excluding hijacking/lead swopping during a dance, etc, I can only think of instance where me moving the lead's hand is appropriate, and that is if I am about to get hit over the head on a turn. Then I *will* push the lead's hand upwards - I refuse to compromise my posture because he (and it usually is a he) is lazy, and I will only compensate for a huge height difference by bending my knees if the lead is already at 'full stretch' or genuinely can't raise his hand higher for another reason (e.g. I dance occasionally with an older guy who has arthritis and has limited reach). Ironically, I get hit over the head more frequently by taller leads: shorter leads are presumably more used to having to raise their arm.

[tsh]

Ah this.... yes, I had a lead comment last night on a follower who leads a large semi circle at the start of a dance, literally wrenching his hand round. He can't find any way of stopping her.


The only suggestion I can think for this is that he waits 2 or 4 beats, and then starts to lead the move in his own time. They'll be off from the count of the teacher, he just needs to resist the temptation to catch up. If she walks through the move on her own, he should wait untill she's finished walking round him, and then start to lead. With luck, she'll ask what he's playing at - at which point he can decide how subtle he wants to be...

[Gav]

Ah this.... yes, I had a lead comment last night on a follower who leads a large semi circle at the start of a dance, literally wrenching his hand round. He can't find any way of stopping her.

But back to the bouncing hands thing - some leads like to do it, some follows like to do it - its when those that don't try to dance with those that do, usually the non bouncer has to give in.

Ick :sick: , I had one of those on Monday night.
She bounces my hand for me (not in time with the music) and backleads everything (miles ahead of the beat, not in time with the music at all).
Bloody typical that the class rotation had me dancing with her every other rotation! :mad:

Being the shy type that I am, I stopped, pointed out the problems and asked her to stop. She said "oh I have to because some of the men don't lead and can't keep in time with the music". I pointed out that I do lead and that she's not doing the new men any favours. She shrugged and kept doing it.
So I fought against her. That was exhausting and had limited success.
So I tried standing still. She actually did most of the move without me!

I know I make light of it, but it ruined my evening so much that I went home after a couple of dances with good followers. (the only 15 minutes of freestyle between classes and only 40 minutes after didn't help, but that's another moan!). :tears:

[David Bailey]

Ah this.... yes, I had a lead comment last night on a follower who leads a large semi circle at the start of a dance, literally wrenching his hand round. He can't find any way of stopping her.
Sounds trite, but one answer is not to lead a semi-circle... Of course, that only really works in freestyle.

[Yliander]

I dunno if this is really obvious or not.. but it occurred to me that when someone's following I don't expect them to move my "connected" hand(s), because I expect to lead the movement.

Is this right? Is it too simplistic?

An obvious example of when I think my hand shouldn't be moved is when I'm trying to keep my hand level and the person who's following is trying to bounce it... I will move the leads hand occasionally - there are 2 reasons - the first GEM has pointed out and the second is when I want to for want of a better word hijack and lead the guy into a move variation Plum is very good at this sort of thing - watching her on Saturday day night was a joy - especial CJ's face PRICELESS!!!

[David Bailey]

I will move the leads hand occasionally - there are 2 reasons - the first GEM has pointed out and the second is when I want to for want of a better word hijack and lead the guy into a move variation
But in the second case, you're no longer technically "the follower", so it's not really relevant is it?


Plum is very good at this sort of thing - watching her on Saturday day night was a joy - especial CJ's face PRICELESS!!!
Plum's a superb dancer, it's always an honour to dance with her :respect:

[DavidY]

Counter-example: ~SNIP~
More generally, if the leader gives the follower momentum, and then catches and redirects that momentum, then his hands/arms will be moved by the follower's momentum. If they don't move, then it's going to be uncomfortable for the follower.Yes - good counter example to the question as I phrased it.

I think maybe the principle is right but I'm not expressing it sufficently well.

"Should the follower ever instigate movement of the leader's hand" perhaps? Not very snappy though.

[Lynn]

Sounds trite, but one answer is not to lead a semi-circle... Of course, that only really works in freestyle.He doesn't, that's the point - she backleads a semi-circle and steps back. Without him doing anything. Not just in class AFAIK, but also at the start of a dance in freestyle.

Beginner ladies do this in class of course - (I've even had one backlead a semi-circle between each move in a 'walk through' part of class - she thought the semi-circle was part of every single move, which I suppose is understandable as it is taught at the start of every move).

But the example I described with the semi-circle is just one symptom of someone who doesn't really follow - and I guess that once the follow starts moving the lead's hand in terms of changing the direction of the movement, they're simply not following any more.

[Jhutch]

An obvious example of when I think my hand shouldn't be moved is when I'm trying to keep my hand level and the person who's following is trying to bounce it...

Its not just me that this happens to then:grin: (only a few times though). I had wondered if the women concerned had been trying to tell me that i was offbeat and helpfully marking the beat for me:confused: Maybe they are just fairly new and doing this helps them to mark the beat for themselves without realising their error?

[Gadget]

There are only two times I expect my hand to be moved by the follower:
1) When they hi-jack.
2) When they are styling and I have removed the 'lead' from that hand.

Anything else I tend to put down to either my bad lead (in which case I try and note it so they don't need to do that again) or their following (which I can change my lead to accomodate) If I think it's their following but it's happening quite a bit, then I assume it must be my lead.