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ducasi
23rd-February-2007, 03:36 PM
... but the one thing it has taught me is that its the best way I've seen to teach people connection and tension/compression. Are you sure it's not possible to teach these things in a Modern Jive context? Wouldn't that be preferable if the aim is to "improve your modern jive"?

Keith
23rd-February-2007, 03:40 PM
Are you sure it's not possible to teach these things in a Modern Jive context? Wouldn't that be preferable if the aim is to "improve your modern jive"?

Sorry, that's the problem with emails.
We do teach them in both beginner & Intermediate MJ lessons, on a regular basis, ie almost every week, along with corrective holds.
I think Gus thought it was only taught in WCS, my fault :blush:
Keith

ducasi
23rd-February-2007, 05:14 PM
We do teach them in both beginner & Intermediate MJ lessons, on a regular basis, ie almost every week, along with corrective holds.
I'm sure you do – I know from reading the forum and personal experience that you are an excellent teacher who cares a lot about your students.

I wonder then, as all your students get lessons in these concepts why Gus noted a "clear difference" with those that had done the WCS classes.

I suspect that the real difference is that it's the dancers who are especially keen to learn and be the best dancers they can be, that will be doing the WCS lessons and that is why Gus noticed a difference with them.

(That's not to say that they may be learning additional useful technique from the WCS class.)

Gus
24th-February-2007, 11:25 AM
Not sure re Gus's comments, my only guess is that he thought more people had done the WCS in the past?Sorry, that was exactly not the case. Although Keith's stated intention is to develop the compression/lead thing, I have to say that its been about as succesfull as most other attempts ... in other words it hasn't. There ARE a number of very good dnacers at Knutsford ... Broadies, Pistol Pete and Rachel ... but they were already good. The rest of the dancers are the usual average standard. Knutsford's music IS better than its Manchester competition, its a good venue and its a very friendly environment and for that it should be praised. However, if its saying that its managing to develop advanced dancers that may be seen as a claim too far.

The basic fact is that tension & compression is very hard to teach from stage. T&C and frame really need individual or a workshop environment to be properly taught. I have to be blunt and I didn't see anything in the lesson format that would communicate the points succesfully. I would suggest that is Revolution wants to progress this concept they need to look at how the likes of DavidB and Amire teaching methods.

Andy McGregor
24th-February-2007, 01:56 PM
Sorry, that was exactly not the case. Although Keith's stated intention is to develop the compression/lead thing, I have to say that its been about as succesfull as most other attempts ... in other words it hasn't. There ARE a number of very good dnacers at Knutsford ... Broadies, Pistol Pete and Rachel ... but they were already good. The rest of the dancers are the usual average standard. Knutsford's music IS better than its Manchester competition, its a good venue and its a very friendly environment and for that it should be praised. However, if its saying that its managing to develop advanced dancers that may be seen as a claim too far.

The basic fact is that tension & compression is very hard to teach from stage. T&C and frame really need individual or a workshop environment to be properly taught. I have to be blunt and I didn't see anything in the lesson format that would communicate the points succesfully. My own opinion is that good MJ teaching will improve your MJ. You don't need to go to the trouble of learning another dance to get good at MJ. You just need to go to a good MJ class to get good at MJ.

All the time there are teachers out there who say "there's no footwork in MJ" and "it doesn't matter what foot you step with" you will have bad MJ. For example, at one of our classes the other day we had, yet another, tourist from an "MJ class down the road": as a welcoming host/teacher I asked her for a dance. She was almost impossible to lead although she obviously thought she could dance as she had the shoes and was doing interesting things with her free hand. As I paused for a moment she said "there's something wrong with the beat in this music (I think John Miller was playing Todo, Todo, Todo), you can't dance to it". As the teacher I thought I'd tell her what the problem was so I said "I think you're starting on the wrong foot and that's putting out your footwork. When I push you back go back on the right foot and I'll call the steps RLRLRLRL until you get the feel for it". Her dancing immediately improved, although she was still collapsing her arm, breaking the frame, etc, etc. As a caring, sharing kind of coach I didn't mention her other faults - they can wait for another day.

The point I'm making is that you really don't need to go the trouble of learning WCS to get better at MJ. What I think happens is that learning WCS is an indication that the dancer wants to improve their dancing. Something that many MJ dancers have no interest in. Many MJ dancers are quite happy with the way they dance, they're just having fun. Those MJ dancers probably gave up lessons after a few months - or gave up listening during the lessons :wink: This makes it doubly important that they are taught to dance properly from the start.

The other result of this good teaching is that the transition to WCS will be easier for the people who really would like to learn the dance.

Lynn
24th-February-2007, 03:19 PM
The point I'm making is that you really don't need to go the trouble of learning WCS to get better at MJ. What I think happens is that learning WCS is an indication that the dancer wants to improve their dancing.Yep. Learn WCS because you want to learn WCS. If you want to learn to improve your MJ, you should work on your MJ. In some places, dancers feel they aren't getting an opportunity to improve their MJ so they turn to other dances.

But - if things you learn in other dance styles are transferable into MJ - tension, connection, frame etc - then to me that is an indication that these thing should be taught in MJ. And as we've already heard, in some places they are.

Gus
24th-February-2007, 04:34 PM
But - if things you learn in other dance styles are transferable into MJ - tension, connection, frame etc - then to me that is an indication that these thing should be taught in MJ. And as we've already heard, in some places they are.Thank you ... thats the point I should have made. I don't think I will ever crack WCS but there have been a number of techniques and teaching points that I would like to move across to MJ teaching if i get back in to it.

The natural attraction of WCS for me is that it would allow me to finally allow me to dance to the R&B muisc I like. As for MJ, its nigh on impossible to teach frame and T&C from stage .. BUT there is no reason why workshops can't do this. There are a number of newish dancers who seem to have got these principles incorporated their dancing. We need to encourage this. I think the more WCS spreads through the dance scene, the more people will become aware of what is achieveable/desireable. Maybe thats part of the problem ..... many dancers simply dont understand that they really need to have a frame to be able to develop their dancing.

Lynn
24th-February-2007, 04:44 PM
As for MJ, its nigh on impossible to teach frame and T&C from stage .Why?

Other dances teach technique, lead and follow and connection in basic classes. Why can't MJ? Sure, you'd need to teach a few less moves, but what would be the problem with that? (I know what I think the reason is...)


Maybe thats part of the problem ..... many dancers simply dont understand that they really need to have a frame to be able to develop their dancing.They're not going to understand if it isn't being taught.

MartinHarper
24th-February-2007, 05:03 PM
If things you learn in other dance styles are transferable into MJ - tension, connection, frame etc - then to me that is an indication that these thing should be taught in MJ.

I can't agree with that. It's often possible to transfer stuff between dances, but that doesn't mean that it's necessary. Different dances have different lead/follow conventions: if we mash every lead/follow principle from every dance into MJ, we'll end up with something that's self-contradictory and impossible to learn.

Lynn
24th-February-2007, 07:09 PM
I can't agree with that. It's often possible to transfer stuff between dances, but that doesn't mean that it's necessary. Different dances have different lead/follow conventions: if we mash every lead/follow principle from every dance into MJ, we'll end up with something that's self-contradictory and impossible to learn.I didn't mean take everything from all other dance styles and put them into MJ. I meant there should be more things like lead and follow taught in MJ. It is in some places - usually in workshops - eg I've done some of Franck's connection classes and they are excellent.

Many of the really good leaders I've danced with in MJ have also done some sort of other dance style. I've seen lead and follow taught in other dance styles. I'd love to see more of it taught in MJ.

David Bailey
25th-February-2007, 03:12 PM
Re: teaching frame and T&C from the stage:

Why?

Other dances teach technique, lead and follow and connection in basic classes. Why can't MJ? Sure, you'd need to teach a few less moves, but what would be the problem with that? (I know what I think the reason is...)

They're not going to understand if it isn't being taught.
I think the problem is in the physical arrangements of a standard Ceroc class.

Workshops are (AFAIK) taught from "ground level", and often in the round - so teachers can spot what people are doing wrong and if necessary physically correct any mistakes. This isn't really feasible with a standard stage-based, mic-equipped teacher - there's an unavoidable distancing from the audience, so you can only really teach a set of moves in that context.

Which begs the question, would Ceroc classes be better if the teachers were at ground level?

Hmmm... this is probably all Off-topic, I'll split this thread up if I get time...

EDIT: OK, shifted over now.

Gus
25th-February-2007, 03:45 PM
Which begs the question, would Ceroc classes be better if the teachers were at ground level?Back to the old chestnut. If MJ classes were primarily there to teach dance, then yes ..... but they aren't. Those that want to learn to dnace will do workshops ... so workshops need to teach these concepts. Speaking from (limited) experience, the only way to get these concepts into a dancers phyche is to do it with them, i.e. get them to feel what T&C and frames ffels like. Its a far more effective teaching model, but obviously more labour intensive.

At the risk of breaking off into a previous thread, unless you understand how to teach (i.e. you are a trainer), how can you expect your students to learn?

Lynn
25th-February-2007, 03:48 PM
Re: teaching frame and T&C from the stage:

I think the problem is in the physical arrangements of a standard Ceroc class.

Workshops are (AFAIK) taught from "ground level", and often in the round - so teachers can spot what people are doing wrong and if necessary physically correct any mistakes. This isn't really feasible with a standard stage-based, mic-equipped teacher - there's an unavoidable distancing from the audience, so you can only really teach a set of moves in that context.

Which begs the question, would Ceroc classes be better if the teachers were at ground level? Agree - and I think its also harder with larger sized classes.

I'm not saying I have solutions to how to develop more lead and follow teaching in Ceroc - I would love to see it though.

Some ideas
- Mentioned more from the stage - in every beginner class.
- Some short 'connection' exercise being part of the 'warm up'
- Taxis being part of the 'working it out' in practice with beginners. Its always much easier for taxis to offer advice and feedback on someones lead or follow if its something that has been taught and mentioned on the stage.
- Being part of workshops - a little bit of it at the start of every workshop as these are the times when teachers can see what's going on.

Of course the ideal would be to have Franck go round all the venues and do his connection classes. :D

Lynn
25th-February-2007, 03:54 PM
At the risk of breaking off into a previous thread, unless you understand how to teach (i.e. you are a trainer), how can you expect your students to learn?I saw someone who knows how to teach, teach an AT class recently. Excellent, he was multi-level teaching with different people, giving technique with the moves, checking students understanding, building on existing knowledge, changing planned class content on the spot in order to respond to students needs.

But - I think that would only work in a smaller class and with the teacher being amongst the students. And unless you are a natural 'teacher' - it could be extremely draining. And its harder work for the students too. Great model for workshops though.

Franck
25th-February-2007, 03:56 PM
Of course the ideal would be to have Franck go round all the venues and do his connection classes. :DGreat idea, but I don't think I'd manage to split myself to cover that many classes. I have however started teaching other Ceroc teachers, so they can include more connection work in their classes, sharing simple exercises I learnt over the last few years (especially from DavidB) and adapted in my Focus classes. I'm also teaching at more week-enders (Utopia in March, Chill in April and Blaze in May) to spread the gospel of connection. :waycool:

I think teaching from the stage is not the issue. Of course experiencing connection is much quicker, but there are ways of making (even Beginners) dancers feel connected from the stage, as you mentioned Lynn, as part of the warm-up.
I also disagree that we don't teach people to dance, this is a myth. Yes, the Beginners and Intermediate classes will only take people so far, but even then, people can dance though of course, some people progress faster than others, and sometimes, people are not interested to learn either.

I make connection an integral part of every class (and move) I teach, it doesn't take any longer (sometimes it takes less time as the class get the moves quicker) but it does imply a deeper awareness and undestanding of what connection is and how it's applied in all the moves we teach.

Gus
25th-February-2007, 03:57 PM
But - I think that would only work in a smaller class and with the teacher being amongst the students. And unless you are a natural 'teacher' - it could be extremely draining. And its harder work for the students too. Great model for workshops though.
If you want to learn everything you want to know about T&C and frame in MJ it comes down to two names: DavidB and Amir. 'Nuff said.

Lynn
25th-February-2007, 04:05 PM
Great idea, but I don't think I'd manage to split myself to cover that many classes. I have however started teaching other Ceroc teachers, so they can include more connection work in their classes, sharing simple exercises I learnt over the last few years (especially from DavidB) and adapted in my Focus classes. I'm also teaching at more week-enders (Utopia in March, Chill in April and Blaze in May) to spread the gospel of connection. :waycool:Great!

That's exactly what is needed, someone who has already worked out ways of teaching connection in class context, sharing that with others.

Keith
26th-February-2007, 06:34 PM
If you want to learn everything you want to know about T&C and frame in MJ it comes down to two names: DavidB and Amir. 'Nuff said.
If you haven't seen Amir teach, we have him at our venue, Knutsford, teaching a 1 hour workshop on Sat 31st March. 7-30 - 8.30pm
May sound like a plug, but personally I think it's a sin if you miss an opportunity to be taught by Amir, especially for a full hour.
The Sunday Workshop sold out in November!!!
Keith

MartinHarper
27th-February-2007, 12:10 PM
I didn't mean take everything from all other dance styles and put them into MJ. I meant there should be more things like lead and follow taught in MJ.

Yeah, I agree that lead/follow should be taught in Modern Jive. I do think it's important that it be MJ-appropriate lead/follow, rather than WCS-appropriate lead/follow. As far as I can tell, lead/follow that is appropriate for pure MJ is simpler than it is for WCS.

Franck
27th-February-2007, 01:00 PM
Yeah, I agree that lead/follow should be taught in Modern Jive. I do think it's important that it be MJ-appropriate lead/follow, rather than WCS-appropriate lead/follow. As far as I can tell, lead/follow that is appropriate for pure MJ is simpler than it is for WCS.Yes, I completely agree with that. Some of the WCS lead & follow transfers really well to MJ, but some was designed specifically for slotted WCS.
I would rather MJ developed its own technique, using MJ, tango, ballroom, lindy and other dances as appropriate.