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Gus
22nd-February-2007, 01:20 AM
Yup .. its probably been said a million times before ... but

I've just got back from one more subjecting myself to the ritual humiliation that is WCS ... and loved it. Its not easy putting yourslef in a class again and screwing up most of the time when you've been used to being the one watch every one else make the mistakes ... but the one thing it has taught me is that its the best way I've seen to teach people connection and tension/compression.

Was doing Chris T's lesson at Revolution Jive. Chris is developing superbly as a teacher and is helping to impart real learning into his students. The value is evident when I went through to the freestyle in the main hall. You could see a clear difference in the perfromace of those who had done the WCS and 'the rest'. Some the the girls are a real delight to dance MJ with, even though they may have being doing MJ a lot less than some of the other ladies there. Is there anyone who has manged to incorporate such lead techniques form WCS into their MJ teaching?

Jamie
22nd-February-2007, 04:40 PM
I incorporate WCS into my MJ all the time, especially the tension/compression and connection thing you mentioned... It really helps.

StokeBloke
22nd-February-2007, 04:57 PM
I love WCS, the whole slotted thing looks so smooth and civilised compared to MJ. It's just a shame I can't do it! Although it's something I have on my to-do list "learn to swing like a west coaster". :cool:

Which part of Wales did WCS originate from? I mean Wales is the west coast and I assume that the slotted style was more suited to dancing on mountain toe-paths where there just isn't the room for circular MJ :rofl:

JiveLad
22nd-February-2007, 06:21 PM
I love WCS, the whole slotted thing looks so smooth and civilised compared to MJ. It's just a shame I can't do it! Although it's something I have on my to-do list "learn to swing like a west coaster". :cool:

Which part of Wales did WCS originate from? I mean Wales is the west coast and I assume that the slotted style was more suited to dancing on mountain toe-paths where there just isn't the room for circular MJ :rofl:

Ditto me (as noted in my m.e.b.)

Some of the videos on youtube for WCS just look fantastic!

As I said in my blog though - if you do learn it, are you going to be limited because there will be fewer opportunities to do it (both from a music and a partner perspective......) compared to MJ?

SuzyQ
22nd-February-2007, 06:42 PM
Yey ... are you a convert??
Looking forward to trying out your new found skills :D!
Almost an Angel has incorporated some westie style MJ moves in her teaching.
SuzyQ

Yogi_Bear
22nd-February-2007, 08:37 PM
I incorporate WCS into my MJ all the time, especially the tension/compression and connection thing you mentioned... It really helps.

I do try to.....:innocent:
And it's tipped the scales so far that I only do MJ occasionally as I would much rather be West Coasting....

Keith
23rd-February-2007, 01:43 PM
Was doing Chris T's lesson at Revolution Jive. Chris is developing superbly as a teacher and is helping to impart real learning into his students. The value is evident when I went through to the freestyle in the main hall. You could see a clear difference in the perfromace of those who had done the WCS and 'the rest'. Some the the girls are a real delight to dance MJ with, even though they may have being doing MJ a lot less than some of the other ladies there. Is there anyone who has manged to incorporate such lead techniques form WCS into their MJ teaching?

Hi Gus,
Thanks for this, we are strongly into follow and lead at Revolution Dance, teaching it to all our beginner MJ people and as you noticed although they haven't danced as long, they are much stronger followers and with Chris's WCS classes it helps to emphasise the point to those who try it.
I hope your plug helps him get more dancers, as we only get around 6 brave dancers going each week, but we are not giving up and will fight to get more Northwestern dancers converting or at least trying WCS. :eek:
Hope to see you soon,
Keith

StokeBloke
23rd-February-2007, 03:53 PM
Chris's WCS classes it helps to emphasise the point to those who try it.
I hope your plug helps him get more dancers, as we only get around 6 brave dancers going each week, but we are not giving up and will fight to get more Northwestern dancers converting or at least trying WCS. :eek:
I have to admit that I was nervous about trying WCS, but the chance to try something different was a real 'pull' to get me to Revolution Dance. Chris' easy going teaching style put me totally at ease. I am looking forward to getting back up to Knutsford in the future for another WCS lesson, and I cannot recommend Chris' WCS lesson enough. His lessons deserve to be packed to the rafters.

Keith
23rd-February-2007, 03:59 PM
I have to admit that I was nervous about trying WCS, but the chance to try something different was a real 'pull' to get me to Revolution Dance. Chris' easy going teaching style put me totally at ease. I am looking forward to getting back up to Knutsford in the future for another WCS lesson, and I cannot recommend Chris' WCS lesson enough. His lessons deserve to be packed to the rafters.

Thank you 'Stokey Blokey' let's hope so. Chris does deserve it :grin:

David Bailey
23rd-February-2007, 04:03 PM
but the one thing it has taught me is that its the best way I've seen to teach people connection and tension/compression.
Hmmm... dunno about tension/compression, but AT teaching is heavily-focussed on continuous and crystal-clear connection.

For that matter, it may be a "teacher" thing rather than a "dance form" thing - Franck does workshops on this stuff which are apparently highly-regarded.

Keith J
23rd-February-2007, 04:13 PM
Hi would you be the lead part of the couple who came to via Marilene to JiveBug - Paul Warden & Cats Sunday last workshop? I like to know who is 'teaching'.

I am particulary interested in the development of WCS in the UK. I am often heard advocating its style, smoothness and its positive influence on the world of MJ?
I am lucky enough to be local to Cats Wednesday bash, live near Bisley for the Sundays and virtually all the MJ's I know are 'swing' dancers, as our US cousins put it, so for me its now central to my social dance within MJ circles.

Also not to put to finer point on it various UK top, Aussie, MJ Ceroc dancers are learning & integrating the techniques associated with wcs. In a lot of cases this is being done behind the scenes in private lessons from our home talented instructors and when available the top US pro's who are now regular visitors.
It certainly adds a dimension as the emphasis in WCS intermediate level is about the interpretation of music.
There is no emphasis on patterns, patterns patterns as they have no relationship to the music. Its about dancing to the music, reflect its speed, emotion, highs lows etc.
This is why there is only 4 basic moves which need 'martial arts' type discipline to master.

The journey of learning is extrordinary in wcs.
As to the footwork its tough but over hyped in difficulty. Its a culture leap for most MJs.
If dancing ignores 'your feet & footwork', how can that be complete? Is there any other style in the world that does not teach footwork at basic level? C'mon now!
There is a lot to getting it correct in the first place (ad naseum step step triple step).
However the insight it provides to your body alignment, core balance, weighting, working in partnership is something else.
It leads to the ability of the conversation of dance between Lead and Follow, which is incredible.

We also see a lot of MJ seniors who start WCS, and drop in and out out as they cannot face the 'beginner syndrome' again and it moves them totally out of their comfort zone. This says more about their abilities, determination and attitudes than anything else.
Surely triple stepping is not to much to master?

So for those tempted to come across to the dark side, be under no illusion it is tough at times to start with, & it frazzles the mind. You cannot do enough basics, and just when you think they are good, you go back to the beginning and start again. I honestly think most people take at least 6 months to get reasonable basics (4 moves)in WCS and some, sorry to say, never make it.
It is developed as a competition dance therefore its not going to be that easy is it?

For me its been refreshing, challenging, moments of despair and some highs.

Hope you all try, try, try.

Keith
23rd-February-2007, 06:25 PM
Thanks Ducasi,
Very kind words.
Not sure re Gus's comments, my only guess is that he thought more people had done the WCS in the past?
This doesn't take anything away from Chris though; he is a great person, fab teacher & a real ambassador for WCS :respect:
Hope to see you soon,
Keith

Mr Cool
23rd-February-2007, 07:12 PM
WCS adds footwork and a different shape and style to MJ. Dont believe the hype its not that difficult to learn.:devil:
A few lessons should give you the basics which is the key to all dance. :cool:
WCS is a linear dance and in many ways is simular to MJ using six and eight beat footwork.:innocent:
It can be danced to a wide wange of music not just slow R&B :devil:
I know from dancing with ladies who have done some WCS that it adds a new dimension to many ladies dance style:wink:

Not so sure about the men :devil:

Most MJVers will improve there dance skills using some footwork :yeah:

:waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

WittyBird
23rd-February-2007, 11:25 PM
but AT teaching is heavily-focussed on continuous and crystal-clear connection.


Sorry was the thread 'WCS to improve your modern jive'

Hmmm didnt think it was 'AT to improve your modern jive'

Maybe DJ should get an infraction for taking a perfectly good thread off topic?

Yes DJ AT might be heavily focused on on yakety yak but it doesn't look as good,demanding or as playful as WCS so :na: that is IMHO now if you carry on with AT in a WCS thread then I will start WCS chat in your little tedious same old same old AT Thread.

:yawn:

Whitebeard
23rd-February-2007, 11:41 PM
Sorry was the thread 'WCS to improve your modern jive'

Hmmm didnt think it was 'AT to improve your modern jive'

Maybe DJ should get an infraction for taking a perfectly good thread off topic?

Yes DJ AT might be heavily focused on on yakety yak but it doesn't look as good,demanding or as playful as WCS so :na: that is IMHO now if you carry on with AT in a WCS thread then I will start WCS chat in your little tedious same old same old AT Thread.

:yawn:

I think my female abbreviated namesake might have a valid point or two there ;-)

(Not that I don't still find the WCS fussy footwork somewhat distracting.)

Minnie M
24th-February-2007, 04:44 PM
My own opinion is that good MJ teaching will improve your MJ. You don't need to go to the trouble of learning another dance to get good at MJ. You just need to go to a good MJ class to get good at MJ..........The point I'm making is that you really don't need to go the trouble of learning WCS to get better at MJ.......
:yeah:

............The natural attraction of WCS for me is that it would allow me to finally allow me to dance to the R&B muisc I like. .........
:confused: a good/experienced MJ dancer should be able to dance to almost anything and definitely R&B (David Barker proves that)


............ As for MJ, its nigh on impossible to teach frame and T&C from stage .........
That is what workshops are for ........... Nigel Anderson has been teaching T & C for years and doing a great job too

Gus
24th-February-2007, 05:00 PM
::confused: a good/experienced MJ dancer should be able to dance to almost anything and definitely R&B (David Barker proves that)Not totaly sure, but as most of the R&B is below 110 BPM ... and can be below 100 ... I wouldn't be able to MJ to it and I think a lot of dnacers would also struggle.

Re workshops for T&C, my point entirely.:wink:

Almost an Angel
24th-February-2007, 05:05 PM
As SuzyQ said I have already taken a fair few WCS moves and amended them for MJ timings. The difficulty in doing that is actually the lead and follow techniques that are required for WCS are not often taught in MJ.

I recently taught a move where after having demonstrated it several times and explained how to lead the move the majority of the leads and follows did not have basic tension and compression understanding in their vocabulary to be able to achieve the move. The answer was to run them through one of the tension & compression exercises and then try the move again which improved their understanding.

WCS concepts of technique are most definately transferable to MJ, some MJ'ers already have the understanding of frame, T&C body leads & alignment, weighting. In my experience it is rarely taught in MJ - a lot of this comes from other dance styles and forms which dancers themselves have transferred to MJ.

But it's true - if you want to improve you MJ - concentrate on MJ or variations of MJ.
If you want to learn WCS - learn WCS - just be prepared for having to go back to the basics.

Mary
24th-February-2007, 06:28 PM
This is a really interesting thread with some valid points made.

For me personally, I have found learning WCS has really improved my MJ, however, it's the MJ that gets in the way of learning and improving my WCS.

Most of the fundamental techniques in any dance style are also applicable to MJ, however if all MJ/Ceroc teachers were to go into the necessary amount of detail to teach these techniques to beginners from up on a stage then it loses it's accessibility to the masses and 95% (or more) would not come back. Although I would like to see the teachers introduce a small amount of technique teaching in the intermediate class. Perhaps choose one of the moves taught to incorporate teaching an aspect of technique (I used to try and do this as a taxi when we used to have an improvers class).

Once people want to come to a workshop this indicates that they are keen to learn and improve. This is the ideal environment to go into quite a bit more detail on technique, and at an early stage. I did have my reservations about this but I have seen at first hand how beginners can benefit from being taught some fairly concentrated specific techniques in the workshop. I was amazed at the transformation without exception in a whole class between the beginning and the end of the workshop. This is from a pretty unique Ceroc teaching couple who, although they don't really do WCS, they do incorporate some of the principles. Their teaching of beginners is pretty amazing :respect:

IMO WCS, although a street dance, is probably one of the most difficult to learn, but as the techniques are gradually mastered, and then being able to listen to the music and then hearing the phrases, then the possibilites within the dance become endless.

I also think WCS has some of the coolest patterns, a lot of which are adaptable to MJ.:D

M

Groovemeister
26th-February-2007, 02:27 PM
Here's a few workshops for ya in Rushden of all places

UK - Smoooth (http://www.jivevibe.co.uk/smoooth/news.php)

KatieR
27th-February-2007, 11:40 AM
Yup .. its probably been said a million times before ... but

I've just got back from one more subjecting myself to the ritual humiliation that is WCS ... and loved it. Its not easy putting yourslef in a class again and screwing up most of the time when you've been used to being the one watch every one else make the mistakes ... but the one thing it has taught me is that its the best way I've seen to teach people connection and tension/compression.

Hey Gus,

I've been starting to lead West Coast over the last few months and its great! As for incorporating WCS into Modern Jive, one of my dance partners here doesn't know much West Coast Swing but loves the movement of it and a lot of the flashier sliding. We have managed to incorporate a lot of the slotted movement, slides, passes etc into Modern Jive.

I still love my classic West Coast Swing, but when you are the only one that can lead it, it can be a difficult at times.

Dorothy
27th-February-2007, 09:45 PM
I've been dancing modern jive for years (don't care to admit how many), started in Leroc, then discovered ceroc, but mostly have background in ballroom. It was only last year that I tried west coast swing classes in Edinburgh, and it was really good in terms of connecting to my partner and smoothing out my dancing (although sorry Lindsay I have not been for months, but do intend to come back soon! :blush:). I use it in Ceroc now but struggle with the arm leading, I much prefer the light lead of west coast swing, and I think my shoulders do to.

Whitebeard
28th-February-2007, 01:02 AM
I've been dancing modern jive for years (don't care to admit how many), started in Leroc, then discovered ceroc, but mostly have background in ballroom. It was only last year that I tried west coast swing classes in Edinburgh, and it was really good in terms of connecting to my partner and smoothing out my dancing (although sorry Lindsay I have not been for months, but do intend to come back soon! :blush:). I use it in Ceroc now but struggle with the arm leading, I much prefer the light lead of west coast swing, and I think my shoulders do to.

That's rather strange; I find it hard to imagine a lighter lead than the fingertip connection I achieve with many MJ ladies. Yes there are the bouncers, but there are some who are smooth from the beginning and others who gradually leave their bouncing days behind. Smoothness and grace come from within and some have it intrinsically, others acquire it with experience and time, and some are quite blind to its existence.

The impression I have gained is that WCS is more precise in timing and in terms of keeping to a slot and requires a somewhat firmer, perhaps more controlled, connection, than MJ with its looser structure and supreme flexibility.

Yogi_Bear
28th-February-2007, 11:07 AM
That's rather strange; I find it hard to imagine a lighter lead than the fingertip connection I achieve with many MJ ladies. Yes there are the bouncers, but there are some who are smooth from the beginning and others who gradually leave their bouncing days behind. Smoothness and grace come from within and some have it intrinsically, others acquire it with experience and time, and some are quite blind to its existence.

The impression I have gained is that WCS is more precise in timing and in terms of keeping to a slot and requires a somewhat firmer, perhaps more controlled, connection, than MJ with its looser structure and supreme flexibility.
WCS does indeed require a firmer hand hold in order to build resistance, and facilitate the lead and follow. MJ will generally get away with a looser connection, partly because it will make it easier for people to pick up the moves if they don't have to think about hand connection (I surmise), and partly because of the number of hand signals adopted.....instead of other ways to lead

Lindsay
28th-February-2007, 12:50 PM
WCS does indeed require a firmer hand hold in order to build resistance, and facilitate the lead and follow. MJ will generally get away with a looser connection, partly because it will make it easier for people to pick up the moves if they don't have to think about hand connection (I surmise), and partly because of the number of hand signals adopted.....instead of other ways to lead
:yeah:
And in WCS the lead comes from the 'centre' (the solar plexus), rather than arm-leading, so both leader & follower need resistance and light tension to ensure you can 'feel' each other. MJ imo often uses a bounce in/out and momentum to initiate the next move, whereas WCS the lead could stand still/stop dancing after each move and the lady should follow suit. 'Arm-leading' and a firm hand-grip in MJ is usually only at beginner level or those who haven't been taught anything else. Most of the good MJ guys in Scotland have a lovely light connection. The fingertip softer non-gripping handhold is a sign of an advanced dancer that has good technique.

P.S.
Gus has the perfect lead..... Had some nice dances with him on Saturday @ Edin party.

TA Guy
28th-February-2007, 04:17 PM
Was doing Chris T's lesson at Revolution Jive. Chris is developing superbly as a teacher and is helping to impart real learning into his students. The value is evident when I went through to the freestyle in the main hall. You could see a clear difference in the perfromace of those who had done the WCS and 'the rest'. Some the the girls are a real delight to dance MJ with, even though they may have being doing MJ a lot less than some of the other ladies there. Is there anyone who has manged to incorporate such lead techniques form WCS into their MJ teaching?

Is this just not a factor of how much time they are putting in tho?
Ladies who spend time learning MJ, and spend time learning WCS are obviously pretty keen, getting lots of practise etc.

Picking out lead and follow as an example;
I believe it can be argued that doing WCS can introduce elements of lead and follow that maybe some MJ dancers have yet to find, but that's all.

The WCS lead and follow is completely different to an MJ lead and follow. The WCS lead and follow is all about guidance and subtle changes in patterns, the MJ lead and follow requires more explicit control. (not sure if that's the best way to describe it, but it'll do).
An example of this is the end of slot. Lead a lady to the end of a WCS slot and a WCS lady will stop. Do that to a MJ dancer and more often than not, she'll go as far as her momentum takes her, maybe not even in a slot, which requires the MJ leader to use more explicit control than the WCS leader. The lead/follow techniques are not the same and not really compatible without compromises on both sides.
Nonetheless, elements can be transferred, but is learning WCS a way to improve your lead/follow? I would say no, if you want to improve your MJ lead and follow, you'd be better off going to one of Francks connection classes and learning it for MJ. If you want to learn WCS, goto a WCS lesson.


I say all this as someone who worships the ground Tatiana Mollman dances on :)

Yogi_Bear
28th-February-2007, 04:22 PM
As do I :wink:
And I agree - to improve your MJ go to MJ workshops, to improve your WCS go to WCS workshops.
Dancing WCS as a leader you know what your follower will aim to do - get to the end of the slot and anchor. No such luxury in MJ.

Lory
28th-February-2007, 05:57 PM
One of the areas that's improved in my own dancing since learning WCS, is being more in control of my own momentum..

Its far more critical that a follow ends up in a 'predicable' place (that being, either one end of the slot, or the other) there is no room for over or under-turning.. you'd simply be facing in the wrong direction.

Also, the angle/alignment and placement of the hand is crucial, therefore adding another 'predicable' factor into the equation

the follow is specifically taught, that any movement of her arm, has a direct effect on her 'whole' body, therefore reactions and responses become more predictable too.

As a follow, we have to be responsible for knowing the patterns and finishing the moves off ourselves, we don't need to be lead right through the entire move, as we know where we're aiming for.

When we're finished and ready, we send a subtle signal back to our partner, that we are 'ready' to be lead again, by creating tension!

The tension between partners, is NOT meant to be maintained throughout the moves, but the tension in one's own frame should be, so at anytime, we feel should hopefully be responsive.

Geordieed
1st-March-2007, 09:55 AM
Is this just not a factor of how much time they are putting in tho?
Ladies who spend time learning MJ, and spend time learning WCS are obviously pretty keen, getting lots of practise etc.

Picking out lead and follow as an example;
I believe it can be argued that doing WCS can introduce elements of lead and follow that maybe some MJ dancers have yet to find, but that's all.

The WCS lead and follow is completely different to an MJ lead and follow. The WCS lead and follow is all about guidance and subtle changes in patterns, the MJ lead and follow requires more explicit control. (not sure if that's the best way to describe it, but it'll do).
An example of this is the end of slot. Lead a lady to the end of a WCS slot and a WCS lady will stop. Do that to a MJ dancer and more often than not, she'll go as far as her momentum takes her, maybe not even in a slot, which requires the MJ leader to use more explicit control than the WCS leader. The lead/follow techniques are not the same and not really compatible without compromises on both sides.
Nonetheless, elements can be transferred, but is learning WCS a way to improve your lead/follow? I would say no, if you want to improve your MJ lead and follow, you'd be better off going to one of Francks connection classes and learning it for MJ. If you want to learn WCS, goto a WCS lesson.




Lead and follow in WCS is a pretty difficult skill to learn. I have been looking deeper into what is involved taking lessons over here and America and private lessons with some of the best around. What is apparent is the complexity that I have found in what can be learnt. TA Guy I think you should learn some more about WCS to accurately assess what is happening in the dance. There is still alot of magic to learn. Your comments give a false impression of what is involved.

TA Guy
1st-March-2007, 10:26 AM
Lead and follow in WCS is a pretty difficult skill to learn. I have been looking deeper into what is involved taking lessons over here and America and private lessons with some of the best around. What is apparent is the complexity that I have found in what can be learnt. TA Guy I think you should learn some more about WCS to accurately assess what is happening in the dance. There is still alot of magic to learn. Your comments give a false impression of what is involved.

The reason for that is I wasn't trying to get across what was involved. LOL.

Anyway, I apologise, it was short extract highlighting some differences between a WCS lead and follow and a MJ lead and follow in broad terms (as I've been taught) and why they are not the same.

I don't claim to be a WCS expert, if you feel any part of it is wrong, feel free to correct me..... ?

timbp
1st-March-2007, 10:59 AM
An example of this is the end of slot. Lead a lady to the end of a WCS slot and a WCS lady will stop. Do that to a MJ dancer and more often than not, she'll go as far as her momentum takes her, maybe not even in a slot
Not my experience at all. But maybe you describe the same action in different words.

"End of a WCS slot" is clearly defined by the (post) follower's arm limit from where the leader allows her to go. That is, the end of the slot is where you lead her to stop. So reinterpreting what you wrote. "Lead a lady to [where you want her to stop in WCS] and she will stop. Do that to a MJ dancer and more often than not, she'lll go as far as [you allow her to go],[in whatever direction you lead her].

I do see differences in WCS and Ceroc, but I think what you have highlighted relates only to lead and follow skills, which can be learned by dancers in every style.

Tim

MartinHarper
1st-March-2007, 11:31 AM
The end of the slot is where you lead her to stop.

If I lead a pass in WCS, and let go on "2", then my partner will make her own way to the other end of the slot, and will be ready to be lead again on "6".

Mary
1st-March-2007, 11:31 AM
I think the basic fundamentals in lead and follow should be exactly the same for WCS and MJ. WCS does go into a myriad of detail to even scratch the surface, but if some of the basic principles were also taught in MJ then it would make dancing MJ so much easier. However, the risk is scaring a lot of people off at their first Ceroc class, but I do believe it can be taught in the beginners workshops and they would be receptive.

When David & Lily teach MJ classes they include teaching some of these basic principles. And I am guessing that Franck is teaching the same kind of stuff in his workshops as well. :respect:

One of the most useful and rewarding things that I am learning in WCS is how my body can work. Small, isolated adjustments in parts of my body completely alter and improve line, compression/leverage/tension etc. balance, posture, control, response. And, as Lory has said, being able to control your own momemtum. And it's a lot of these 'adjustments' that give WCS it's look and feel, apart from the obvious grounded look.

btw the slot is as wide as you want to make it so you could use the whole dancefloor. :wink:

M

TA Guy
1st-March-2007, 11:50 AM
Not my experience at all. But maybe you describe the same action in different words.

"End of a WCS slot" is clearly defined by the (post) follower's arm limit from where the leader allows her to go. That is, the end of the slot is where you lead her to stop. So reinterpreting what you wrote. "Lead a lady to [where you want her to stop in WCS] and she will stop. Do that to a MJ dancer and more often than not, she'lll go as far as [you allow her to go],[in whatever direction you lead her].

I do see differences in WCS and Ceroc, but I think what you have highlighted relates only to lead and follow skills, which can be learned by dancers in every style.

Tim

Well, I did say; quote; "Picking out lead and follow as an example" :)

Can't argue with your better wording. It gets even more interesting tho if you interpret if a different way and consider what happens if the connection is broken.

If the momentum was started, and the connection then broken, a WCS follower will provide her own momentum to reach end of slot (provided no contrary guidance received).
I don't think that should happen in MJ, if the lead wants the follower to reach some arbitrary point, he has to give the follow the momentum to reach that point.

But it matters not because that's not what the this thread is about :)

If someone wants to start threads on either;
"The difference between a WCS connection and a MJ connection"
or
"What's involved in a WCS connection"
or somesuch,
I will happily contribute, otherwise this is veering a little off-topic and much as I love the topics, I don't want to be spanked.

Lory
1st-March-2007, 11:55 AM
I don't want to be spanked.

Spoilsport! :D

Geordieed
1st-March-2007, 12:34 PM
I don't claim to be a WCS expert, if you feel any part of it is wrong, feel free to correct me..... ?

There are very few experts and I am most certainly not one of them. On my last visit to a WCS event I did took some private tuition on stretch and elasticity. The teacher beamed when I put my request in at the start of the lesson. I saw him a week later in the UK and he came to ask me how it was all working a week on.


The impact of that on connection was immense and added another huge piece to the jigsaw. Also the use of lead to work with energy made more sense. I have been lucky to spend time conversing about connection with a few professionals. Connection is an ever expanding subject with an ever number of passionate disciples joining the discussion.


The use, generation and control of each others' energy is an integral part of connection. The arms are still in use and hand connection is still active but in the last year I have been shown how to generate power just through the use of the leaders body or how to spin the follower through multiple spins through your own body and not the arms. The arms don't use more strength.


Plus once the post is set the length and width can alter by the follower. The complexity in connection after the post is set is making a huge difference in my dance. Connection is a large part of the language we speak to our partners.

timbp
1st-March-2007, 12:36 PM
If I lead a pass in WCS, and let go on "2", then my partner will make her own way to the other end of the slot, and will be ready to be lead again on "6".

Yes but...
I would say the "other end of the slot" is defined by where I stop her. If I start her moving then let go and do not reconnect, I would normally expect her to keep moving in a straight line (theoretically!).
In practice, I would assume the above behaviour from a new partner; with people I had danced with before I would adjust my lead to what I knew thay would do. Thus, with regular partners I will often disconnect and expect to find them at a particular place, whereas if they had followed my "rule" above I would have lost them.

You appear to be assuming one particualar behaviour in the follower:
in the absence of further information, assume a 6 count pattern and be ready to start the next pattern after 6 counts.

I am assuming a different behaviour:
keep going along the slot until you receive a lead to change your momentum.

Both behaviiours have been taught in classes I've been to, but I generally prefer the second one, and my favourite partners tend to do that (but that's probably self-selection).

I think the second pattern makes improvising patterns easier (at least for the leader) -- if I know the follower will keep moving in a particular direction until stopped, then I only need to consider momentum changes that I introduce, and dont' have to worry about her deciding to stop or change direction.

Caro
1st-March-2007, 01:49 PM
I know from dancing with ladies who have done some WCS that it adds a new dimension to many ladies dance style


I have certainly found that personally. Because in WCS the follows are usually given more space and opportunity to contribute to the dance, and also because there is such an emphasis on musicality and phrasing, I have found myself thinking a lot more about the music and how I can make my dancing more interesting in trying to interpret what I hear. Now in MJ mode I hear a lot more of the music than I used to, and I try to include a lot more of interpretation - trying to follow musically if that makes sense. However I find I am restricted in the fact that most leads don't expect you to extend moves as such (travelling returns for example) and are a bit phased when they sometimes have to 'wait' for you (and quite often, they don't :tears: ).



For me personally, I have found learning WCS has really improved my MJ, however, it's the MJ that gets in the way of learning and improving my WCS.


:yeah: I can relate to that as well. I find I have to work hard to change some of my MJ habits that hinder my WCS. The anchor step was a problem at first since I tended to end up the left foot slightly forward the right foot, which actually had a huge impact on my connection - that came from the MJ 'step back' (usually on the RF). Hopefully that's fixed.
Another one I am currently working on, is to connect with my left hand and arm to the lead's upper arm (depending a tad on the lead's height)- i.e. not placing my left hand behind or on top of their shoulder. I think I do that ok now, to the point that when I dance with MJ people now some tend to physically move my hand to their shoulder - in a this-is-where-your-hand-is-supposed-to-be kind of way. I let them do it but then I come back to the upper arm (must be really annoying for them :devil: ). I've been working hard to get that embedded in my dancing so I'm not going to change it - and I get a better connection that way anyway.

Same with other aspects of dancing.



That's rather strange; I find it hard to imagine a lighter lead than the fingertip connection I achieve with many MJ ladies.

A comment that I sometimes get from MJ leads is that 'they know I do WCS', or that my following has changed since I started WCS. I think it comes down to the fact that the tension in my arm is a bit more important now than it was before, and also that I try to avoid finger tip connection. 'Fingertip connection' is usually a sign of an advanced dancer in MJ, it's not in WCS. From the few dances I've had with the pro, they hate it when we have that 'MJ open hand hold' connection, they expect our fingers to fully mould their hand.
If I use my normal MJ class to practice some WCS concepts (as I do sometimes since there's no WCS class where I live), the leads will tend to find me 'heavier' than usual I guess.



Nonetheless, elements can be transferred, but is learning WCS a way to improve your lead/follow? I would say no, if you want to improve your MJ lead and follow, you'd be better off going to one of Francks connection classes and learning it for MJ. If you want to learn WCS, goto a WCS lesson.


Indeed as explained above I too think the concepts of lead and follow are very different in MJ and WCS, and although learning WCS will improve some aspects of your MJ (like musical interpretation and broadly speaking connection), it will also hinder some other aspects of it (following very lightly, not travelling if not lead to, etc), the ability to lead/follow accurately being one. IMOFI.



I say all this as someone who worships the ground Tatiana Mollman dances on :)

makes 3 of us then :yum:

Keith J
1st-March-2007, 02:38 PM
Is there anyone who has manged to incorporate such lead techniques form WCS into their MJ teaching?

I was fully integrating compression / leverage techniques straight from wcs into MJ beginners and the side classes for over 4 years for Ceroc Surrey Woking and when it was previously Rebel Roc at the same venue.
This involved , how to develop a frame Leads, 'frame verses noodle arm' for follows exercises, hand connection, framing, lead & follow techniques.
I gave up teaching for them in Dec 06. to provide more time to progress WCS.

KatieR
3rd-March-2007, 03:59 AM
Not my experience at all. But maybe you describe the same action in different words.



Hey Tim,

Is that perhaps that here in Australia our level of West Coast Swing is not as good as other places?

I remember Jordan and Tatiana saying when asked about the same issue, that a lady should always head for the 'end of the slot'. If a leader messes up a lead, the follower should automatically go to the end of the slot so that the lead can just start his next pattern without too much disruption to the dance.

Caro
3rd-March-2007, 11:31 AM
I would say the "other end of the slot" is defined by where I stop her. If I start her moving then let go and do not reconnect, I would normally expect her to keep moving in a straight line (theoretically!).
(...)
You appear to be assuming one particualar behaviour in the follower:
in the absence of further information, assume a 6 count pattern and be ready to start the next pattern after 6 counts.

I am assuming a different behaviour:
keep going along the slot until you receive a lead to change your momentum.


My understanding of the end of the slot is not the place where I'm stopped but the place where my arm has extended enough to obtain full connection (i.e. if I keep going my arm becomes straight and I break my frame). So if the leader is walking at the same speed as me in the same direction, indeed there's no end of the slot as such and we'll keep going. But as soon as I feel that the distance between us is increasing and reaches a critical point, my next priority is for my center to 'flashlight' my partner's center. Hence I'll turn or finish turning to square up with the lead, and anchor.

Dorothy
8th-March-2007, 10:07 PM
I think you are all saying the same thing, if you read it through!