Cabaret Routines - copyright?

[Gus]

A few years back, it may have been th 2003 National Champs (C2D), two team eneterd the team event with a Roxanne routine. As I remember, and I apologise if I've got my facts wrong, the Notts team had to pull out because the other Team (Graham & Sarah plus Clayton & Jeanine) had the rights ... think it had been coreographed by Nicky Haslam. Is this right or did I only get a partial story. Can a cabret team put 'dibs' on a track?

[Yliander]

I don't know if this applies in this case but in Australia some comps have/had a ruling that there a song could be used by only one cabaret entry - and was it was decided on a first come first served basis.

as to copyright - you can copyright the actually routine (the unique combination of moves and styling) - and if you have editied re-mixed or written the music that as as well but I don't see how you could copy some elses music....

[Achaeco]

A few years back, it may have been th 2003 National Champs (C2D), two team eneterd the team event with a Roxanne routine. As I remember, and I apologise if I've got my facts wrong, the Notts team had to pull out because the other Team (Graham & Sarah plus Clayton & Jeanine) had the rights ... think it had been coreographed by Nicky Haslam. Is this right or did I only get a partial story. Can a cabret team put 'dibs' on a track?


Without going into every detail.

Graham and Sarah bought the rights to the routine and to that music that went with the routine from nicky haslam.

The Nots team therefore could not use that routine in full to that peice of music in full but they did perform the routine with permision from Graham and Sarah but for entertainment purposes only and not as part of the competition.

For the record, this had nothing to do with Claton or Jeanine.

Why the question Gus???

[Dreadful Scathe]

Why the question Gus???

Perhaps he just wants an answer ? :)

[MartinHarper]

If Fred creates a routine to "Roxanne", then Fred owns copyright to his routine. If George dances Fred's routine, then he may violate Fred's copyright. If George creates an entirely different routine to "Roxanne", then George owns copyright to his routine, and does not violate Fred's copyright.

The difficulty comes George's routine is influenced by Fred's routine. If the influence is too great, then George may be in violation of Fred's copyright. If Fred is a litigious SOB, then he can make random incoherent legal threats and hope to scare event organisers into banning George from performing his routine, even though the routines are very different.

(I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)

[Gus]

Why the question Gus???As DS said ... just wanted the answer ... you know how it is as you slip into senility, you rake over things in the past ..... and to be honest your answer doesn't make any sense to me. No one, outside those that hold the rights to Roxanne, can give 'permission' to dnace to it. Am I missing the point but just because X has choreographed a routine to track 1, that doesn't stop Z also choreougraphing a routine. From memory they were very different routines. I fing it even more amusing as the track was already 'choreographed' ... in the film itself ... so who is in a position to 'give rights'?????:confused:

[Minnie M]

I have seen a couple of English showcases which are very very similar to ones I have seen on videos of top American pros.

Would this be breaching copyright rules ?

[Dreadful Scathe]

If it reminds you of someone else's work then there are elements of plagiarism in their somewhere. I remember I thought that years ago when there was the kylie dance routine at C2D blackpool, Kylie music, some kylie dance moves and kylie costumes - not all of it, just enough that it screamed Kylie!! I wouldn't say this is necessarily a bad thing, after all, you cant have a tribute to something without making spectators think of that thing :)


If Fred is a litigious SOB, then he can make random incoherent legal threats

Indeed and its much more prevalent where someone makes money where you didn't. Look at the recent Da Vinci Code law suits; "we published stuff about this and made no money, now that you have, we want some because there are lots of coincidental similarities, which, when added together, amount to a whole LOT of coincidental similarities"

[Andy McGregor]

If Fred creates a routine to "Roxanne", then Fred owns copyright to his routine. If George dances Fred's routine, then he may violate Fred's copyright. If George creates an entirely different routine to "Roxanne", then George owns copyright to his routine, and does not violate Fred's copyright.

The difficulty comes George's routine is influenced by Fred's routine. If the influence is too great, then George may be in violation of Fred's copyright. If Fred is a litigious SOB, then he can make random incoherent legal threats and hope to scare event organisers into banning George from performing his routine, even though the routines are very different.

(I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr Harper. AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.

There are certain ethics that need to be considered. But ethics and the law are, in my experience, unrelated.

I remember the event and was surprised that the people from C2D fell for it. After all, it must be easy to judge the performance of two similar routines danced to the same music. I remember that the second routine was danced in the evening, after the competition. There were fireworks, there was smoke, there was a massive cast and the outfits were fabulous. They must have rehearsed for months and spent a lot of money. And they couldn't compete because the organisers allowed themselves to be bullied :mad:

I remember hearing that Graham LeClerc had presented the organisers with a letter from Nicky Haslam giving him permission to use "her" (Nicky Haslam's) routine. The fact that the routine could not be copyrighted wasn't considered and the second team was not allowed to compete because they didn't have a letter.

At the next competition I enter I will present a letter from Michel Ange Lau and James Cronin saying that I can use the dance they invented. Nobody else will have such a letter everyone else will not be allowed to compete. I'll probably still come second :tears:

[TheTramp]

This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr Harper. AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.

Personally, I think that you're wrong Andy. As a substantial piece of work, I'd say that you can copyright a complete dance routine. Of course, I can't imagine that anyone would go to the bother....

And I have to say that your analogy is flawed. A way of walking or standing might be equated more to a single move than a complete routine to a piece of music. And we know that you can't copyright moves. :wink:

[David Bailey]

This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr Harper. AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.
According to the 1988 Copyright act (http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1988/Ukpga_19880048_en_1.htm), you can certainly copyright literary, dramatic, artistic or musical works.

In fact, the act specifically states

"dramatic work" includes a work of dance or mime;

So you certainly can copyright a dance routine in theory.

Whether, in the real world, such copyright can be enforced for a MJ routine, is a different matter of course. But yes, the phrase "legal action" can be pretty effective in terms of intimidation - even if you win, you'll lose because of the time and effort spent in defending.


At the next competition I enter I will present a letter from Michel Ange Lau and James Cronin saying that I can use the dance they invented. Nobody else will have such a letter everyone else will not be allowed to compete. I'll probably still come second :tears:
Gotta be worth a try though :)

Is it me, or has the MJ world got more litigious in the past few years? Or is that just that the UK in general is more litigious now?

[ducasi]

AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing. This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr McGregor.

[straycat]

This is, of course, completely made up in the fevered imagination of Mr Harper. AFAIK you can not copyright a dance routine - any more than you can copyright a way of walking or standing.


AFAIK... doesn't that stand for "In my own fevered imagination"? :devil:

IMOFI - acually I think I might start using that as a standard forum acronym.
It would go well with IMOFO (In My Own Fevered Opinion), which would make a nice change from IMO or IMHO, and would usually be a lot more applicable. IMOFO.

[Will]

David Brent should have copywritten his "Impromptu Christmas Charity Dance", then SimonR wouldn't have been able to put it into his new showcase....

[Simon r]

David Brent should have copywritten his "Impromptu Christmas Charity Dance", then SimonR wouldn't have been able to put it into his new showcase....

:rofl: :rofl: you made me laugh as i was drinkng now i have to clean my lap top

[Martin]

I would think that if you wanted to quote copyright, first you must copyright it in the relevant country.
I am not a lawyer though.

Putting a caberet routine that has been used as a team ball routine 2 years previous into a competition would be seen as laughable in the Aussie circuit (sometimes ball routines performed that same year are entered into comps, coz it is nice to show off), but the routine in question was an Aussie team ball routine and had not been seen in England, so it was a different audience.

Having danced in the original team routine (taught to us and corried by Nicky Haslam) :respect: for a ball in 2001, it was strange seeing it performed 2 years later in the UK as a showcase. There were some modifications made to enable it to be performed as a showcase, so there were differences between the "team" and the "showcase" versions.

As Yl mentioned, there was a ruling in Aussie champs that you could not use the same music as another entrant. So everyone knew, before you start to corrie, reserve the music with the champs you want to enter that year. This saved the bordom factor for the audience.
More recently with late entries, entries from other countries and interstate, the ruling was relaxed, so as not to disapoint people who had spent some months working out routines only to find they should have reserved the music.
If the music clashes now in CA Sydney, the first people to register have the option to negotiate the order of the contestants and go before or after the other participants with the same music.

Idealy I would still like to see different music for each caberet or team performance, rule being, first to register gets the choice of music.

When it comes to Caberets my biggest disapointment was in 2003, trying to register for the London comp. They wanted video tape of the routine by a certain date, which we could not give, because the routine was still being corried. This also effected another couple from Sydney, so there were 2 less caberet entrants from Aus in that comp. (OK some might say, there were enough entries from the blo*dy aussies that year) :sick:

[David Bailey]

I would think that if you wanted to quote copyright, first you must copyright it in the relevant country.
I am not a lawyer though.
You're probably thinking of trademarking? Trademarks need to be registered in countries of use, whereas copyright just is; the creator of an original work is generally deemed to have the copyright for that work, although it's helpful to assert that copyright in case you need to enforce it.


(OK some might say, there were enough entries from the blo*dy aussies that year) :sick:
Australians seem to be very experienced at planning and rehearsing routines - more so than us in the UK, I think.

[RoyBoy]

Australians seem to be very experienced at planning and rehearsing routines - more so than us in the UK, I think.

Och bit laddie, yer firgettin that well kent, nay Famous, wee lassie fray Edniburg
oor very ayn LINDSAY BROON:wink: :respect:

[Martin]

Och bit laddie, yer firgettin that well kent, nay Famous, wee lassie fray Edniburg
oor very ayn LINDSAY BROON:wink: :respect:

Steady on old chap, is there and English language version of this?

[Amir]

http://www.danceuk.org/metadot/index.pl?id=24079&isa=DBRow&op=show&dbview_id=22690

[MartinHarper]

I would think that if you wanted to quote copyright, first you must copyright it in the relevant country.

Copyright occurs automatically under the Berne Convention, which has been signed by almost all countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berne_Convention_for_the_Protection_of_Literary_an d_Artistic_Works

[Gus]

All intersting comment ... but doesn't this all relate to the choreography not the track? The choreography of the two dances, as i remember, were very different ... so why couldn't they BOTH be allowed?

[Dreadful Scathe]

Och bit laddie, yer firgettin that well kent, nay Famous, wee lassie fray Edniburg
oor very ayn LINDSAY BROON:wink: :respect:
aye yae urnae wrang, braw set o hurdies on the lassie tae :) Us Scots ur known fir gien it laldy at comps :) wahey

[David Bailey]

All intersting comment ... but doesn't this all relate to the choreography not the track? The choreography of the two dances, as i remember, were very different ... so why couldn't they BOTH be allowed?
The general principle is that dance routines can definitely be copyrighted (if that's the right term). But I'd imagine that asserting that copyright, and actually gaining anything useful (i.e. cash compensation) from that assertion, in the MJ world, would be extremely difficult.

So, yes, in that instance it seems strange - but that's 4 years ago, is it relevant now?


http://www.danceuk.org/metadot/index.pl?id=24079&isa=DBRow&op=show&dbview_id=22690
A pound? A pound?? :eek:
Are you crazy? Do you think I'm made of money? :na:

[Gus]

Just had confirmation from Tony at C2D. Turns out both teams were using the SAME choreopgraphy, a routine developed by Nicky. One team had paid for it. The Notts team had not and aknowledged the mistake and were allowed to present it as entertainment in the evening. Seems perfectly sensible, it wasn't the music that was the issues but ownserhip of a specific routine ... mystery solved :grin:

[TonyC2D]

Just to confirm, as I did on the phone to Gus earlier, this problem was not a C2D prob, and as it happens, all 3 parties involved almost sorted it out between themselves (if only it was always that simple).
The only thing we did was to let the team perform their routine after the competition as a caberet. (as we do understand all the hard work and commitment involve in a team). This again was discussed with all 3 parties and 'The show went on' , I seem to remember the only down side was believing it would only take 45secs to sort out the pyrotechnics, it was more like 10 mins.

I do hope this answers any queries arising from this matter.

Please if anybody ever has any questions regarding the competition, do not hesitate to contact us directly, either through PM or via our www.achance2dance.co.uk ,we will be only too pleased to answer you (it may not be the the answer you want to hear ......but hey!!!!!)


Hope to see you all soon, in fact in 3 weeks.....arghhhhhh, can't stop things to do. cya

Tony