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View Full Version : Coupling during lessons - causing angst



JiveLad
21st-February-2007, 01:42 PM
This has probably been discussed before - but one issue which came up again last night is the confusion caused by couples who refuse to 'move on' during a lesson - ie. they have decided to stick together for the whole lesson.

At Stevenage on Wednesdays, this is a common occurence - in fact I seem to remember once, there were about 12 couples who did not move one week. (I assumed they were all newbies going to a wedding or something..........not the case).

Apparently the teacher doesn't like it - and made a comment about it last week - but it still happens.

There seem to be 2 issues in this:

1. It causes confusion to people (usually women) moving around.......are you in the line up or not................

2. It sends a message to other dancers about not being 'part of the community'.

Just wondered whether this happens elsewhere much......and what you feel.

Ghost
21st-February-2007, 01:57 PM
Personally as long as they stay at the back / off to the side so it's obvious at the moving round stage I don't see a problem with it.

I've done it myself at a venue where drops were regularly taught and I got fed up with women throwing themselves at the floor despite my asking them not to and a lady there similarly got fed up with guys throwing her at the floor despite her asking them not to. Mind you at that point I'd say at least half the regulars had paired up in couples.

You can definitely lean the moves faster with a fixed partner. You can give each other feedback without worrying about offending. You know what moves not to do and how far you can go in a dip. You can pause at any point eg because one of you is dizzy. You can sit out a move that you especially don't like without messing up the "4 ladies round" thing.

The converse is that you don't get to try it with other people. But then there's freestyle for that.

I've done both. To each their own.

TurboTomato
21st-February-2007, 02:00 PM
Very occasionally happens at my venue - only one or 2 couples though, of maybe 80+ dancers in total.

Personally I can't see a problem with it - you've paid your money so it's your choice. I've done it once or twice when I've really struggled with an inter class.

ducasi
21st-February-2007, 02:09 PM
Fixed couples are fine as long as they are not in the main line-up. They should be out of the way at the back or to the side so as not to get in the way of people who are there to learn with everyone else.

MartinHarper
21st-February-2007, 02:12 PM
Recommendations for fixed couples:
1. Stay with other fixed couples, if there are any.
2. Keep yourself visibly seperate from the rotation, where possible.
3. Help manage rotation in your area. When the teacher says "rotate", stop dancing, and redirect any rotating people who are coming towards you.
4. Don't hog the best space: stay fixed at the back of the room, rather than the front.

I generally don't approve of fixing, but there are legitimate reasons for it.

Lee Bartholomew
21st-February-2007, 02:14 PM
I quite often fix couple up if there is a lady that wants to learn the lead part and I take the follow.

I can't see a prob with it as long as it's not done in the main group of people learning

SimonW
21st-February-2007, 02:17 PM
If the 'teacher doesn't like it' and the couples feel intimidated by the comments from the stage, I would not be surprised if these couples walked out of the venue never to return.

Obviously the teacher has enough confidence that he can still make money by scaring paying customers off.

If the teacher is worried about the couples confusing the class then maybe he should encourage them to take the class at the back or sides of the room as other posts mention.

Genie
21st-February-2007, 02:18 PM
I am not sure I understand. Are you saying these couples stand in the lines like everyone else, but do not 'move around'? Something I have not come across before. Or are you saying they stand to one side, well out of everyone's way, to practice the class? (which I have done once or twice when there is a lead in the line up I prefer to avoid - due to previous injury received from his dancing).

And if the first is true, do these couples only dance with each other during freestyle?

I have met one couple who would only dance with each other and I know it may be rather callous to say so, but that is not Ceroc. Ceroc is friendly and relaxed 'because' people know they can ask anyone to dance. If people start popping up saying 'no, I will only dance with him/her' it'll ruin the atmosphere and indeed the whole purpose of a social dance.

There are other dance forms where you can be couply. Ceroc is not one of them. Happily this couple realised this early on (after offending several people and confusing and upsetting several beginners) and haven't come back.

I hope I don't sound too nasty, but I really can't stand people who turn up and refuse to dance with anyone but their prefered partner.

Ghost
21st-February-2007, 02:34 PM
I am not sure I understand. Are you saying these couples stand in the lines like everyone else, but do not 'move around'?

Yup, though ideally they stand off to the back or side so it's obvious that they're staying together. I've seen people staying together in the actual lines and to be honest it wasn't the end of the world.


Or are you saying they stand to one side, well out of everyone's way, to practice the class?

No they're learning it same as everyone else.


And if the first is true, do these couples only dance with each other during freestyle?
In my experience they normally dance with others during freestlye, same as everyone else

Hope that helps
:flower:

LMC
21st-February-2007, 02:35 PM
Haven't been to Stevenage for ages, but time was that fixed couples were at the back, well away from the line up - and there usually quite a few.

That number of fixed couples is a bit frustrating when there's lots of extra women over, particuarly if the routine isn't really that complicated (no dips/drops).

IMO, people who only dance with the same partner during freestyle as well as classes are missing out on half the fun (variety, spice of life and all that). And many of the "best" dancers seem to agree that dancing with the same person most of the time can get you into bad habits - dancing with different people is a good way to refine your lead/follow as applicable. Rather than making the fixed couples feel bad about fixing, perhaps the teacher could encourage leaders and followers to believe that practising the routine in the lesson with different partners will actually improve their dancing?

But I agree with "you pays your money, you makes your choice". No-one has the god-given right to dance with anyone else [shrug].

Double Trouble
21st-February-2007, 02:37 PM
I find that the fixed partners usually only dance with their partners during the freestyle too.

They never ask anyone else to dance...and if you drag them away from their partner for one, they are usually rubbish because they are all out of their comfort zone. I avoid the couply dancers like the plague.

killingtime
21st-February-2007, 03:00 PM
I quite often fix couple up if there is a lady that wants to learn the lead part and I take the follow.

I've done it a few times where a few of us guys were following. I'd say it's more accepted for women to lead in the class than the look of horror I'm sure you'd get from some guys if you went into rotation as a follower. There have been three couples that did that at one stage (woman leading man following) and we rotated between each other. It did feel a little insular but I'd do it again anyway.

I don't think I've ever seen a fixed couple in Edinburgh classes. If I saw a beginner couple do it (who might not know how it works) it would probably be good to mention that there is benefits in rotating but if they were resolved to stay fixed then I don't see how that's a problem (though as previously mentioned they should probably stay out of the main line-up to clear up any confusion).


I have met one couple who would only dance with each other and I know it may be rather callous to say so, but that is not Ceroc. Ceroc is friendly and relaxed 'because' people know they can ask anyone to dance. If people start popping up saying 'no, I will only dance with him/her' it'll ruin the atmosphere and indeed the whole purpose of a social dance.

I do agree that refusal during freestyle is bad as it generally makes the place seem less welcoming (actually it is making the place less welcoming). I understand that someone might have good reason to do this (injuries etc.). I actually think it's the person who is fixed partnering who is losing out. As mentioned before this might just restrict you to only being able to "lead" one dancer :sick:.

MartinHarper
21st-February-2007, 03:37 PM
If the 'teacher doesn't like it' and the couples feel intimidated by the comments from the stage, I would not be surprised if these couples walked out of the venue never to return.

Obviously the teacher has enough confidence that he can still make money by scaring paying customers off.

There are anecdotes of venues that have suffered death-by-fixing. It's not necessarilly the case that discouraging fixed couples is a bad commercial decision. As ever, it's a trade-off off between the desires of the community with the desires of the individual.

Besides, rotation and mingling is widely considered good for learning dance. There are teachers who care about actually teaching stuff, and it's only natural that those teachers will encourage their students to take the class in the most effective way.

straycat
21st-February-2007, 03:40 PM
Can't people wait 'till they get home? Where's their sense of propriety? (or romance for that matter) :what:

Stray
Choosing to reply to the subject line rather than the content. Obviously.

Gav
21st-February-2007, 03:55 PM
Can't people wait 'till they get home? Where's their sense of propriety? (or romance for that matter) :what:


Depends whether it's a dancing lesson or something else I suppose?:devil:

Dreadful Scathe
21st-February-2007, 04:01 PM
we have had plenty of threads on this before :rolleyes: Coupling dancers are common when theres a competition coming up but I'd say its more common to do lessons as a couple at a weekender rather than a normal dance night...and if its the beginners class its just odd (unless one in the couple is very scared, had that happen before :) ) . I agree on normal dance nights couples should be encouraged to go round, it will take them MUCH longer to learn if they dont. (Even if one in the couple is an expert)

Its also more common for couples to stick together during freestyle. I suppose it depends on the venue if you get advanced couples doing this or just shy couples :)

the answer: buy more lingerie :)

philsmove
21st-February-2007, 04:32 PM
As a singleton, I hate classes were fixing is allowed and avoid them

If a class advertises “no partner required” then fixing should not be permitted

I have no problem with fixing at special classes e.g. blues workshops

Achaeco
21st-February-2007, 05:24 PM
I find that the fixed partners usually only dance with their partners during the freestyle too.

They never ask anyone else to dance...and if you drag them away from their partner for one, they are usually rubbish because they are all out of their comfort zone. I avoid the couply dancers like the plague.

You mean, you cant find a prince if he is in a couple :whistle:

Double Trouble
21st-February-2007, 05:39 PM
You mean, you cant find a prince if he is in a couple :whistle:

I have found my Prince FYI.

David Bailey
21st-February-2007, 05:43 PM
I have found my Prince FYI.
Is that like Princess FI but with an extra "Y" chromosome? :innocent:

Double Trouble
21st-February-2007, 05:51 PM
Is that like Princess FI but with an extra "Y" chromosome? :innocent:

No...its like Prince....as in g.a.v

Achaeco
21st-February-2007, 07:55 PM
No...its like Prince....as in g.a.v

g.a.v - may the force be with you.

TheTramp
21st-February-2007, 08:36 PM
I agree that you pay your money, you take your choice. This applies to both doing the class as a fixed couple, and also with dancing with whoever you want to dance with.

However, as some people have said, it's quite anti-social, and also doesn't help you actually learn the dance as well.

The one real downside is if it's taken to extremes. 40 guys, 45 ladies isn't too bad - 5 ladies on, and you get 8 'turns' before you're off again.

If 20 of those are in fixed couples, then the ladies only get 4 turns before they are off again.

If 35 of them were in fixed couples, then the ladies are off and on every time.

I know it's a bit of an extreme example. But you know what I mean. And would really discourage anyone other than fixed couples from attending that particular night.....

TheTramp
21st-February-2007, 08:36 PM
And yeah. Gav. We'll pray for you! :hug:

Gav
21st-February-2007, 10:27 PM
g.a.v - may the force be with you.


And yeah. Gav. We'll pray for you! :hug:

Maybe you should save your prayers for Achaeco. He'll need all the help he can get to remove the light sabre that's about to get stuck up his... :na: :D

angelblue
22nd-February-2007, 07:03 AM
I agree on normal dance nights couples should be encouraged to go round, it will take them MUCH longer to learn if they dont. (Even if one in the couple is an expert)

:)

sorry dont agree

you want to learn fast-do fixed couples. The more confident you are with a move the better you will lead it when you dance with everybody else.

I can understand on class nights this may seem unsociable but it all depends what you want out of the dancing.

Also there is a danger of the follow being unable to follow the moves from someone else as they are so used to one lead.

Good:
To learn specific moves

Bad:
If you want to improve your general lead/follow

SteveK
22nd-February-2007, 08:10 AM
I agree that you pay your money, you take your choice. This applies to both doing the class as a fixed couple, and also with dancing with whoever you want to dance with.

However, as some people have said, it's quite anti-social, and also doesn't help you actually learn the dance as well.

:yeah:

Learning dancing with lots of different people definitely helps you freestyle better. If you lead/follow the same person all the time, you won’t learn to give/follow clear leads.

Incidentally, I’ve noticed since coming out to Oz, that the UK dancing style is slightly different to the way it is danced here in Brisbane. Some of the dancers who look like they would be good to dance with are rubbish at following a slightly different lead, whilst others find it no problem at all.

Dancing ability isn’t just being able to dance well with people you know well; it’s the ability to dance well with people you don’t know!! Or putting it another way, friends you’ve yet to make :grin: :love:

Dreadful Scathe
22nd-February-2007, 10:09 AM
sorry dont agree

you want to learn fast-do fixed couples. The more confident you are with a move the better you will lead it when you dance with everybody else.

If you can lead it with others at all. And since when does not dancing with anyone else give the confidence to ..er..dance with anyone else :)



Also there is a danger of the follow being unable to follow the moves from someone else as they are so used to one lead.

Bad:
If you want to improve your general lead/follow

so two major reasons why NOT dancing in a couple is good then, especially as the most important thing about dancing by far is the lead/follow aspect. You don't agree with yourself either it seems ;)

MartinHarper
22nd-February-2007, 10:21 AM
you want to learn fast-do fixed couples.

Fixing gives the appearance of learning fast, but probably not the reality.

drathzel
22nd-February-2007, 11:17 AM
We had a little problem with fixed partners at the start of ceroc in NI. when we were only getting 7/8 men and 13/14 and 3 were couples were staying fixed it really wasnt fair and people were jumping on the band wagon and picking a random person to fix with so that they would have more time. I did have to descretely speak to them because we had lots women rotating only a few men while other ladies were getting every dance. Altho we lost some couples due to this most understood why we do it and are now rotating in class, freestyling with everyone and having a ball! :D

killingtime
22nd-February-2007, 11:44 AM
Fixing gives the appearance of learning fast, but probably not the reality.

Well you can learn faster in a fixed couple. You get extra practice time during rotation and maybe can quietly work on bits while the teacher is going over something you think you have got.

Though the guys tended to have a good understanding of the moves we were doing as swapped roles we normally tried leading it (even though we were the followers) at some stage just to see if we could. We were also thinking of fixed partnering a double trouble class (I have fixed partnered in it once before) but that was so we could swap leads throughout the class.

Saying that you don't learn about variations in the follower, you don't have to adapt to differences (the follower taking an extra step or that they need a heavier lead) in class and you, I think, increase the chances of you and your partner doing the routine by rote. I'd say it weakens your lead with anyone who isn't your partner.

rubyred
22nd-February-2007, 12:38 PM
I think the leaders are better dancing with different partners. They tend to learn how to lead, rather than their fixed partner knowing what the next move will be, and then anticipating. I just wish that if people do choose to dance as fixed partners that they would form their own line or dance away from the rotating lines cos it does tend to lead to lots of confusion and lost time dancing - and we can't have that now can we?. :devil:

They can always come together with their partners/dance partners later and practise.

Dreadful Scathe
22nd-February-2007, 12:55 PM
I just wish that if people do choose to dance as fixed partners that they would form their own line or ....

...leave through the door marked "bugger off" :)

David Bailey
22nd-February-2007, 01:17 PM
Well you can learn faster in a fixed couple. You get extra practice time during rotation and maybe can quietly work on bits while the teacher is going over something you think you have got.
Depends what you want to learn. You learn faster how to dance with that partner - you don't learn at all how to dance with lots of different people.

Fixed-partnerships in MJ are fine - in fact, they're essential - for people who want to mainly dance with one person - for example, for competitions.

They're not so good for developing "social-dancer" skills.

Lory
22nd-February-2007, 01:28 PM
From my experience, most couples who choose to fix, seem to be at the opposite ends of the extreme, either completely new and inexperienced or have reached a stage where they're able to learn 'moves' very quickly and are more concerned with working on perfecting their style and technique

The disadvantages are sadly weighted against the newbies, as they're the ones who'd benefit much more from dancing with the more experienced but instead, they naively try to learn a little bit on their own before letting themselves loose on the rest of the class and risking embarrasment:blush: ..

I don't see a great advantage for the latter couple as individuals (because they probably have years of 'circulating' under their belts already), except for the worthy cause of sharing their expertise, integrating with others and creating a good community spirit....

...which of course, holds its own rewards! :nice:

Baruch
22nd-February-2007, 02:05 PM
Personally, I do both.

I never fix with one partner for the beginners' lesson as I want to help out beginners as much as I can, but sometimes I do for the intermediate lesson. When that happens we always go to the back of the dance floor so we don't confuse people.

I've found that when I couple up I do pick up the moves very quickly, which means I have more time to work on the other aspects such as style, leading well, etc. When I'm not with a fixed partner I find I have to spend so much time helping others to get the moves (or in the case of one or two ladies, dancing defensively) that sometimes I don't learn as well myself and by the next week I've forgotten what I've done in class. If I learn with a fixed partner then I usually remember every move a week later, and beyond.

Reasons for coupling up have included:

Preparing for competitions.
Self-preservation if certain ladies are in the line.
Dancing with a partner who has a bad back and wouldn't do the class otherwise.As I said, I don't always pair up (in fact more often than not I don't), so I can see both sides of the argument. I do enjoy rotating because of the social aspect of it, but in my experience pairing up is better for the learning side of things. A balance between the two is what's needed. I want to be sociable, but in the end I'm there to learn to dance better, not to be sociable.

Oh yes, and when I do pair up with a fixed partner for the lesson, I make sure I dance with others during freestyle.

straycat
22nd-February-2007, 03:07 PM
...leave through the door marked "bugger off" :)

Why would they enter a doorway that is clearly telling them not to enter it? :confused:

Freya
22nd-February-2007, 03:18 PM
I Ocasionally Partner up with another female during the intermediate Classes because there are so many females over and we both want to have a go at following and leading the routine!

I feel that since it's my money and I've paid to do the class that I should be able to do as I wish...Within reason! :wink: I feel that I should be able to choose whether I lead or follow in the class and when there are many extra woman I don't think that I should feel obliged to lead if I don't want to!

When I partner with a friend we couple up out the way usually off the main dance floor if possible!

Shodan
22nd-February-2007, 03:27 PM
I sometimes "couple" with a friend of mine at my local jive club. Mainly because she only goes dancing once every month or something, so she doesnt feel confident doing the improvers class without me. Its also nice as we get to catch up with each other, as during the freestyle I'll be getting mugged by all the ladies asking for a dance. LOL.

BUT, we stay together at the back of the hall, away from the rest of the people moving around. If any do get confused and wander towards us we direct them to wherever they need to go.

Dreadful Scathe
22nd-February-2007, 03:58 PM
Why would they enter a doorway that is clearly telling them not to enter it? :confused:
I don't know, why would they ? :confused: hang on, are you stupidly implying there would a "bugger off" sign on BOTH sides of the door if for some reason i had meant an ACTUAL sign and not a metaphorical "marking" as i clearly did :)

TA Guy
22nd-February-2007, 05:22 PM
The only problem I have with this is the peripheral one of the atmosphere. Part of Cerocs success is the friendly 'dance with everyone' culture. Lots of things are constantly attempting to erode that and this is one of them.
It's too simplistic to say "it's okay if it's a small number" because your essentially saying it's permitted. If some do it, maybe in a few weeks, the numbers will be much larger. Far harder to stop 20 couples rather than 2.
So for class nights, I prefer it banned.


Weekenders are different. No problem there as weekenders are just so large and do not have to worry about the week on week affect.

straycat
22nd-February-2007, 06:20 PM
I don't know, why would they ? :confused: hang on, are you stupidly implying there would a "bugger off" sign on BOTH sides of the door if for some reason i had meant an ACTUAL sign and not a metaphorical "marking" as i clearly did :)

Well - if the sign was either metaphorical, or on the outside of the door, they would be unable to see it - hence they would only get confused if advised to leave by said door.

If the sign were real, and on the inside of the door, they would be able to see it, but the confusion would remain, as the implication of the 'bugger off' sign is that they should not pass through the doorway, which would contradict the previous suggestion they were given. I feel that consistency is extemely important during dance lessons.

You also have failed to take into account the possibility that there might be someone with a name like 'Offenbach' (who clearly might be nicknamed 'Off') attending the class, who might well be offended by the sign (people of a certain turn of mind may, in fact, be able to suggest worse scenarios). In today's litigious society, I respectfully submit that this is a risk best avoided in a public venue. Metaphor is, IMOFO not a valid defense in the eyes of the law. :cool:

johnthehappyguy
22nd-February-2007, 06:22 PM
......
Self-preservation if certain ladies are in the line.
.

:yeah: :yeah: