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Trousers
19th-February-2007, 01:13 PM
Today, I heard whilst belting down the M40 on a wet Monday morning listening to the BBC World Service because the laggards at Radio4 weren't up yet, following a comment someone made about the Radio4 Message Boards that they were creating an On-Line community there.
I thought "No-Poo, I've been in an On-Line community for 2 years big deal!" But then the woman made some comment about the way new rules of etiquette and punishments were having to be devised for these On-Line communities and I chuckled merrily to my self and thought "Yup!". Then she talked about moderation and how to keep the population on track with the subjects of their boards and smiled knowingly!

But as I continued to sit there, hammer down, miles sleeting relentlessly through the speedo I considered the idea of the community and how we had shaped ours a little.

ChitChat threads you know the ones, where you can safely turn your brain off and type gibberish because no one would notice, are suitable slotted away in their own zone for those to enter that must and those that enter un-wittingly should beware!

Dance related stuff again is ferreted away and hopefully you get what it says on the tin when you answer.

That's all well and good and not really community based stuff but then I remembered - We were a community with community interests and community care - The Big Forum Hospital screamed out "Look at me! Look at me!" What a fantastic idea an On-Line hospital for members of our community to go and receive advice and concern regarding their sicknesses and of course the On-Line equivalent of a bag of grapes.

Sub cultures have formed as in the real world fortunately not hoody wearing Goth like ones but the WestCoasties, but it all adds to the mix.

Then I thought about Crime and Punishment because the News came on and prison numbers were again at issue and I thought about those criminal types amongst us.
I thought about the punishments currently imposed on us when we bend the rules we have or worse break them outright. First and minor offences get a slap meted out by Franck, We get penalty points and monitored as if on probation but we can still basically exist in our community as before (although behaving better). But then I thought what happens when we push the limit too far and I noted with concern that the equivalent real world punishment is akin to being sent to a French penal colony without access to our friends or previous On-Line lives and the only way to be released is to wait for a ship to come in with release papers.
I thought this may in fact be a little authoritarian.

What I deduced we need is a Big Forum Jail. I reckon it should be possible to create a thread where members of our community guilty of extreme behaviour will be sent for the duration of their punishment. Access to all other community areas would be withdrawn, Private message rights blocked etc.
Then as in prison establishments residents may receive visitors, unlike real prisons however access would be without request although could be limited to certain hours in the day. Some form of community behaviour could then be maintained by the accused and possibly early release obtained for good behaviour or repentance. However virtual hacksaw blades in virtual cakes would not exist. We could have a banner on the Forum front page showing detainees currently residing at their leisure. Thus if one of our friends was interned over night we would know the next morning.

The Big Forum Jail would not of course stop severe or repeat offenders being sent to our virtual Island of Guiana should behaviour not improve. Or possibly we could take a leaf out of our ancestors books and just transport them to the CerocAustralia Forum if such a world exists.

The Human race has always had a perverse trait of watching gory incidents and people worse off than ourselves so visitor access to the Big Forum Jail would be limited to actual members not Forum Visitors. But I do think this idea has merit.

What do you lot think?
(did I really ask that?)

David Bailey
19th-February-2007, 01:27 PM
But then I thought what happens when we push the limit too far and I noted with concern that the equivalent real world punishment is akin to being sent to a French penal colony without access to our friends or previous On-Line lives and the only way to be released is to wait for a ship to come in with release papers.
Actually, I believe there are a range of "punishments" available now, ranging from "quiet word in your shell-like" to "outright permanent ban" in level.

There is already (I think) a "restricted access" version, which stops short of actual banning.

The best analogy is driving - you get points for dangerous driving, and if you accumulate enough points, or do something totally dodgy, you get banned.


We could have a banner on the Forum front page showing detainees currently residing at their leisure. Thus if one of our friends was interned over night we would know the next morning.
Maybe we could get them to wear penal uniforms at dance venues :)

Despite what it appears, the actual number of infractions handed out is very low - in the past 6 months, we've had a couple of dozen warnings and 40-odd infractions (many of which were spammers being banned).

Considering there were maybe 100,000 posts in that time, that's pretty low, most of us are fairly well-behaved. Or, we've been "cowed into submission", as I'm sure Andy McG would put it.

So any changes would be a lot of work for a very small return - the "jail" would be empty 99% of the time.

EDIT: I've moved this to the "suggestions" area, it seems more appropriate here.

Lou
19th-February-2007, 01:44 PM
The best analogy is driving - you get points for dangerous driving, and if you accumulate enough points, or do something totally dodgy, you get banned.
At which point you'd hire Barry & claim exceptional hardship. :whistle:


So any changes would be a lot of work for a very small return - the "jail" would be empty 99% of the time.
Does anyone else have visions of DT heading off again with a baseball as Cooler Queen?

Just me then. I'll get my coat...

Gav
19th-February-2007, 01:47 PM
Does anyone else have visions of DT heading off again with a baseball as Cooler Queen?

Just me then. I'll get my coat...

Better check DT isn't hiding in your taxi, trying to escape. :D

Trousers
19th-February-2007, 01:56 PM
There is already (I think) a "restricted access" version, which stops short of actual banning.. . . . . .
So any changes would be a lot of work for a very small return - the "jail" would be empty 99% of the time.
.

I see you have your Boring head on today Wurzel!


Maybe we could get them to wear penal uniforms at dance venues :).

Been there Done that


EDIT: I've moved this to the "suggestions" area, it seems more appropriate here.

Here we go again!
Guess all that thought and time I spent considering where to place my new thread was wasted then. . .








Does anyone else have visions of DT heading off again with a baseball as Cooler Queen? .

or possibly in the guise of Norman Stanley Fletcher, That would make David James Mr MacKay though :really:


Just me then. I'll get my coat...
Get mine too willya!

SuzyQ
19th-February-2007, 03:44 PM
Just one thing ...

:rofl:

giggle!

Double Trouble
19th-February-2007, 03:47 PM
or possibly in the guise of Norman Stanley Fletcher, That would make David James Mr MacKay though :really:


Get mine too willya!

Sorry folks. You will have to poke me with a bigger stick than that to get a reaction out of me.

I'm a reformed, diplomatic little forumite now, don't you know.:flower:

*DT buffs forum gun with knowing smile on face*

dave the scaffolder
20th-February-2007, 08:51 PM
Sorry folks. You will have to poke me with a bigger stick than that to get a reaction out of me.

I'm a reformed, diplomatic little forumite now, don't you know.:flower:

*DT buffs forum gun with knowing smile on face*

DARLING YOU ARE ONE OF THE FEW WHO MAKES THIS FORUM INTERESTING.

You are the grisle in our expensive pie.

You make the forum interesting and funny never bow down to the political correctness which seems rife in society as a whole

LONG LIVE INDIVIDUALITY XXX XXX:respect: :cheers: :worthy:

Trousers
21st-February-2007, 03:22 PM
You are the grisle in our expensive pie.


As chat up lines go this is definitely a new order.

From this time on I propose we refer to DT as "Gristle" and long may we chew on her. . . erm company!

Double Trouble
21st-February-2007, 04:31 PM
As chat up lines go this is definitely a new order.

From this time on I propose we refer to DT as "Gristle" and long may we chew on her. . . erm company!


You can refer to me as 'gristle' if you like....but you will be well on your way to a free coffin with snuffemquietly.com

Double Trouble
21st-February-2007, 05:45 PM
it has become smaller and less vocal.

There's a reason for that.:rolleyes:



*DT slaps hand over mouth*


Did I type that out loud?

Franck
21st-February-2007, 06:04 PM
There's a reason for that.:rolleyes: No there isn't, anti-Ceroc views have not been removed, and all recent policies have been discussed at length on this forum.

You have received several infractions and as a result received a temporary ban for being personally abusive to forum members and to moderators. This has nothing to do with how tolerant this Forum is or not, just good manners.

Gav
21st-February-2007, 06:37 PM
There's a reason for that.:rolleyes:
*DT slaps hand over mouth*
Did I type that out loud?


No there isn't, anti-Ceroc views have not been removed, and all recent policies have been discussed at length on this forum.

You have received several infractions and as a result received a temporary ban for being personally abusive to forum members and to moderators. This has nothing to do with how tolerant this Forum is or not, just good manners.

mmm, maybe some people are just too quick to have a go at members who speak up for themselves, even when they're clearly just joking? :wink:

robd
21st-February-2007, 07:40 PM
mmm, maybe some people are just too quick to have a go at members who speak up for themselves, even when they're clearly just joking? :wink:


mmm, maybe some members are just too quick to reach for the same tools (reporting posts, etc) that they criticise when used against them. If you're happy to give stick out to other people you should be able to take it too.

Double Trouble
21st-February-2007, 08:33 PM
This has nothing to do with how tolerant this Forum is or not, just good manners.

I didn't say that. But if it makes you feel better franck...I agree with everything you say and I'm sorry for my terrible behaviour and I am deeply ashamed that I am top of the infraction points board (thanks for letting me know DJ).

:flower: :love: :flower:

By the way. Can we make those french babies or what? I know you are just playing hard to get.:devil:

Trousers
21st-February-2007, 08:58 PM
mmm, maybe some members are just too quick to reach for the same tools (reporting posts, etc) that they criticise when used against them. If you're happy to give stick out to other people you should be able to take it too.

Well said

I have a nasty feeling that in our little community there are some with bigger voices.

If suppose I wrote something that caused offence to 20% of the population in here I would expect to be sumarilly punished or maybe asked if I wanted to apologise as I had caused offence. However what I feel is happening is certain people are making individual complaints and draconian actions driven from them.
'frinstance how many people does it take to decide if a post is off topic? It has to be in a community of at least 70 regular posters - 7. 10% that would be fair.
Abuse etc could be left to individuals with good reasons but most times when I as an INDIVIDUAL have raised concerns about others posting possible abuse I get poo poo'd.

I am well aware that our On-Line community is definitely NOT a democracy but the people with powerful mouses need better direction I feel.

It is after all only recently that we had an influx of new moderators but seems to me things have gotten worse since then. Are heads trying to wear too many hats out there. Mr Community Member with a desire to interact fully and play the community game and Mr Moderator with the remit of keeping the peace. Those hats DO NOT sit well on the same heads.

Franck 'frinstnace (god bless the ground he walks on!) does not post often he is divorced from the day to day chitchat. I respect that and when Franck says "you've been an arse, cool off!" I have probably been an arse and should cool off.

Should Francks model be the model of the Moderator? You can't after all have your cake and eat it!

Hey it's a point of view and I started the thread (although admittedly some where else) what does the community think?

Franck
21st-February-2007, 09:10 PM
'frinstance how many people does it take to decide if a post is off topic? It has to be in a community of at least 70 regular posters - 7. 10% that would be fair.On this forum a couple of moderators (even 1) would be enough. Being off-topic is not difficult to spot. When a moderator is in doubt, they discuss it in the 'Moderator area' to get some feedback from other moderators or myself.

'Franck 'frinstnace (god bless the ground he walks on!) does not post often he is divorced from the day to day chitchat. I respect that and when Franck says "you've been an arse, cool off!" I have probably been an arse and should cool off.

Should Francks model be the model of the Moderator? You can't after all have your cake and eat it!This is exactly what happens now already. Moderators share decisions, discuss most things (unless obvious) with each other in private, and then one of us (whoever has most time / access) deals with the issue.
As soon as an issue is reported, a thread is created for moderators to discuss action. Sometimes we decide the complaint is over the top, other times we take steps: deleting the post, infracting the user, or a quiet word by PM.
Being consistent is not easy, but having 6 moderators (some of them not shy) helps us to keep most of our decisions fair.

As for being 'divorced from the day to day chitchat' that's simply not true, I rarely have time to post on most thread, but I tend to read most of them when I can, so I know what's going on. We have more moderators now because we have more members, and more posts. Keeping things on track was too much work for 2 or 3 moderators.

Andy McGregor
22nd-February-2007, 02:01 AM
Where are the dance police when you need them??The World's gone mad! But the powers that be on the forum have decided that it's woodface's World where what he says goes - and he says airsteps are acceptable on a social dance floor, so you'd better keep quiet about your objections. You don't want to get an infraction for disagreeing with the new boy :mad:

The only choice you have with this venue is to stay away. Now what does that put me in mind of...?

Franck
22nd-February-2007, 02:06 AM
The World's gone mad! But the powers that be on the forum have decided that it's woodface's World where what he says goes - and he says airsteps are acceptable on a social dance floor, so you'd better keep quiet about your objections. You don't want to get an infraction for disagreeing with the new boy :mad:Ahhhhh Petal, I didn't know you were so sensitive to mild rebuke! :flower:

Andy McGregor
22nd-February-2007, 09:04 AM
Ahhhhh Petal, I didn't know you were so sensitive to mild rebuke! :flower:Dear Franck,

You have received an infraction at Ceroc Scotland Forum.

http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=above
Reason: Bringing thread off topic
-------
Please Franck, do not deliberately take threads off-topic. It takes enough time and effort from moderators to keep up with the natural drift without having deliberate attempts at sabotage!

Thanks,
-------

This infraction is worth 1 point(s) and may result in restricted access until it expires. Serious infractions will never expire.

All the best,
Andy the unofficial moderator who doesn't like overmoderation and is just making a point!

Gav
22nd-February-2007, 11:17 AM
Being a relative newbie, I'm sure I won't be missed by many when I go from the forum (by choice or otherwise), nor will "just one more" affect the stats very much, but here are my two penneth anyway.
I think that unless owners/moderators can learn to stick by their own rules when posting as normal participants, they shouldn't post as normal participants at all.
It's the inconsistency that annoys me.
OK, I break the rules too, but you're not paying for me to use the forum, I'm paying to use it.
Here's a few examples of the inconsistencies that I've found annoying recently:

Moderators can take a thread off topic one minute, then hand out warnings to others who do the same.

Someone makes light of one of Francks comments, Franck responds with a scathing review of their misdemeanors. Someone makes a serious complaint about the running of the forum, Franck makes a joke out of it. Sense of humour only when it suits?

Some people get infractions and warnings based on complaints by other members, seemingly with the moderator assuming that the complainer is correct and not bothering to check the facts before acting. Yet, comments blatantly having a go at another member are ignored because no complaint is made.

I'm not saying I could do things any better than you guys, mostly you do a great job, but the rules should apply to everyone equally and should not be affected by whether a person is new, experienced, popular or holds a position of authority.

I feel better now I've got that off my chest.

David Bailey
22nd-February-2007, 11:29 AM
Moderators can take a thread off topic one minute, then hand out warnings to others who do the same.
We're all guilty of this, I'm afraid :blush:

But, to be clear, there's nothing inherently wrong with going off-topic, and it certainly shouldn't be a subject of any warnings. Conversations develop, and mutate, and that's fine.

If a thread goes too far off-topic, we'll attempt to split it to keep focus; this helps people who are interested in the original topic, and people who are interested in the new topic.


Someone makes light of one of Francks comments, Franck responds with a scathing review of their misdemeanors. Someone makes a serious complaint about the running of the forum, Franck makes a joke out of it. Sense of humour only when it suits?
Well, he is French, you know.


Some people get infractions and warnings based on complaints by other members, seemingly with the moderator assuming that the complainer is correct and not bothering to check the facts before acting. Yet, comments blatantly having a go at another member are ignored because no complaint is made.
We don't review every post - we can only really focus on the ones that get reported. Which is why we strongly encourage people to report posts that may cause concern.

It's always a judgement call, and we can get things wrong - well, when I say "we", I mean all the others, I'm perfect - but any "official warning" action gets discussed between moderators before action is taken.

Any suggestions for improving the system are always welcome, of course.

Lory
22nd-February-2007, 11:47 AM
Some people get infractions and warnings based on complaints by other members, seemingly with the moderator assuming that the complainer is correct

I'm sorry Gav but this simply 'isn't' the case, we've had plenty of complaints about all sorts of things and yes, we probably err on the side of caution and even if 'we' don't entirely agree with the complaint, we'll inevitably still email the person involved, making them aware that they have caused someone offence.


not bothering to check the facts before acting. I don't think we've made many mistakes :confused: well I hope not.

And please let me point out, if there's ever any evidence to prove the complaint to the contrary, we are ALWAYS willing to listen and if necessary we will act as mediators, as well as moderators, to smooth out any misunderstandings between forumites! (well 'I' will anyway :flower: )



Yet, comments blatantly having a go at another member are ignored because no complaint is made.

As I've said before, we don't get round to reading 'everything,' at least 'I' don't, so its difficult to spot something, unless it gets reported!

Also, its difficult to make a judgement as to who's offended by what. Ironically, some of the people who I wouldn't expect to be easily offended, often are. :confused:

I didn't actually read 'this' thread until about 4 posts ago! :blush:



I do get disheartened and feel like we take one step forward and two steps back sometimes! :sad:

Lory
22nd-February-2007, 11:54 AM
Moderators can take a thread off topic one minute, then hand out warnings to others who do the same.



We're all guilty of this, I'm afraid :blush:

But, to be clear, there's nothing inherently wrong with going off-topic, and it certainly shouldn't be a subject of any warnings. Conversations develop, and mutate, and that's fine.

If a thread goes too far off-topic, we'll attempt to split it to keep focus;

If it makes you feel better Gav, I told DJ off only yesterday and requested that he split a thread that 'he'd' taken off topic! :wink: :clap:

Gav
22nd-February-2007, 12:00 PM
Just my thoughts/experiences so far. I accept that I only see part of what goes on.


I'm not saying I could do things any better than you guys, mostly you do a great job


If it makes you feel better Gav, I told DJ off only yesterday and requested that he split a thread that 'he'd' taken off topic!

Yes it does, thanks. :D

Dreadful Scathe
22nd-February-2007, 12:23 PM
Being a relative newbie, I'm sure I won't be missed by many when I go from the forum (by choice or otherwise), nor will "just one more" affect the stats very much, but here are my two penneth anyway.

Active posters are always missed, if you go my posts will seem less intelligent overall.



I think that unless owners/moderators can learn to stick by their own rules when posting as normal participants, they shouldn't post as normal participants at all.

Moderators ARE normal participants - this is an informal forum not the bleedin U.N. :) So they do some tidying up stuff too, big deal - I'M not impressed :)



Here's a few examples of the inconsistencies that I've found annoying recently:

Moderators can take a thread off topic one minute, then hand out warnings to others who do the same.


Warnings ? I have been known to take a thread of topic at least..um..6 times, but Ive never had a warning for it. When did this start? or are you making it up ?



Someone makes light of one of Francks comments, Franck responds with a scathing review of their misdemeanors.

Thats how YOU read the situation, but does anyone else agree. Give us the example so we can judge.


Someone makes a serious complaint about the running of the forum, Franck makes a joke out of it. Sense of humour only when it suits?

Again, only your view of it. Franck has never been overly serious about the forum, and doesn't think its Voltaire, he does try to get that message across. I always thought he was consistent in this but maybe I'm wrong maybe others do think he takes it too serious and is overly heavy handed. Anyone agree?


Some people get infractions and warnings based on complaints by other members, seemingly with the moderator assuming ..

"seemingly assuming"? , so probably not then :)


Yet, comments blatantly having a go at another member are ignored because no complaint is made.

Well if the member who is receiving the "go" cant justify acomplaint its a safe assumption they are not that bothered.


I'm not saying I could do things any better than you guys, mostly you do a great job, but the rules should apply to everyone equally and should not be affected by whether a person is new, experienced, popular or holds a position of authority.

Could it be that you are talking about certain people who happen to be fairly new ? Maybe if they posted non-inflammatory posts no one would have any issues - like the other 99% of the forum who managed fine without controversy for 6 years :)