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View Full Version : "Venue hogging" discussion



Bluey
16th-February-2007, 05:48 PM
I gather it is very easy to find and is a terrific venue as other MJ operators use the same hall.

M


I will be off to the monthly dance Jag Jive at Bookham, not far away 3 miles where dancers travel many miles too. BUT there has only been one MJ operator at Ashtead, thats LeRoc since 2002 and that club has built an excellent reputation for events, namely last weeks Valentine Ball which I attended. They run dances twice a month and often have a full house of 200 with a main hall of modern jive and 2nd hall on Saturdays with WCS, Blues & Swing with top dj's playing a range of music.

Cant understand though why FL has gone and put a dance on in someones elses venue they have built up, perhaps upsetting the local operator and then gone up against another with another dance locally on same night upsetting another operator, maybe theres more to it?

wheres the best dance on this Sunday in the South?

Chef
16th-February-2007, 06:41 PM
ICant understand though why FL has gone and put a dance on in someones elses venue they have built up, perhaps upsetting the local operator and then gone up against another with another dance locally on same night upsetting another operator, maybe theres more to it?


I don't know if there is anything deliberate in it. You would have to ask FunkyLush. I really like Jag Jive at Bookham and there has to be a really good reason why I would miss it as I really love John Fords swing and blues room.

If I had to compare FunkyLush and John Fords room I would say that John Fords room at Jag Jive is very much more upbeat than the quite a bit slower and latin influenced Funky Lush. The way I see it they are two very different animals and ideally I would love to be able to go to them both as I find them both, in their own ways, irresitable. It is unfortunate that they are on the same night and I really hope that it wouldn't happen in the future because I want to have two highly enjoyable dance evenings that don't involve me in a long drive from kent to west London.

As for the Venue that FunkyLush will be operating being "a leroc venue" then I just don't see it. A hall for Hire is a hall for hire and if leroc don't want it on this particular night then it is available for someone else like FL to use it.

Jag Jive is a charity event and always sells out (and has a waiting list for people) and I hope that the amount of money they can generate for charity is not affected on this occasion.

It would be very weird if FL were deliberately targeting a charity dance. From what I know of the people behind FL, such a thing is not part of their character.

David Bailey
16th-February-2007, 08:45 PM
Cant understand though why FL has gone and put a dance on in someones elses venue they have built up, perhaps upsetting the local operator and then gone up against another with another dance locally on same night upsetting another operator, maybe theres more to it?
Maybe, 'coz it's not their venue, it's a venue which just happens to be hired occasionally by organisations?

Camber is used by Franco and by Ceroc for weekenders. And yes, Franco kicked up a fuss about that too - and I think he was wrong to do so.

Another example - Wolsey Hall in Cheshunt is used by Ceroc and another Jive organisation (Just Jivin' I think), sometimes on consecutive evenings - but Ceroc don't whinge about that (Ceroc's got a lot of anti-competitive habits, especially recently, but venue-hogging isn't one of them).

There are only so many decent MJ dance venues around, after all.

Finally, I would be amazed if the average MJ punter were interested in Funky-Lush type events, so I doubt if there's any realistic chance of poaching anyway.


wheres the best dance on this Sunday in the South?
Berko, typically.

Bluey
17th-February-2007, 11:05 AM
As for the Venue that FunkyLush will be operating being "a leroc venue" then I just don't see it. A hall for Hire is a hall for hire and if leroc don't want it on this particular night then it is available for someone else like FL to use it.

From what I know of the people behind FL, such a thing is not part of their character.

It gets really confusing when another operator goes into another clubs venue, because its deemed unfair on the original club that built up the venue profile. In Sussex we used to have a fantastic night out with Freestyle Frenzie at Marletts, Burgess Hill over 5 years ago. Then another big modern jive club booked it and werent so good, they used to leave prerecorded cd's on during the main part of the evening running that that werent relating to people on the dance floor. Any way we used hear "Martlets is on tonight" and off we would troop miles only to discover it wasnt the good club on but the one many didn't like. People got confused, venues lost its unique one club status, both clubs numbers dwindled and both closed. WE lost a great venue because another club thought of jumping on the band wagon and creaming the success built up by another.


Maybe, 'coz it's not their venue, it's a venue which just happens to be hired occasionally by organisations?.
The only one that used that until today has been LeRoc, you would pick a war it seems if you did that against ceroc, and in the last ten years, its seems ceroc have gone in second into many others venues, its often heard in Surrey that Ceroc have tried to book nights in other clubs venues. In fact its been heard that FL have gone round Surrey targetting other clubs venues, rather than create their own plus also trying to get in at Jags Jives venue in Bookham too Ive heard recently as well.


Camber is used by Franco and by Ceroc for weekenders. And yes, Franco kicked up a fuss about that too - and I think he was wrong to do so.
I think Ceroc tried to buy Franco out to get Camber its rumoured, they couldnt so they brought out Rebel Roc who got in for that one off, when Ceroc couldnt.


There are only so many decent MJ dance venues around, after all.

Finally, I would be amazed if the average MJ punter were interested in Funky-Lush type events, so I doubt if there's any realistic chance of poaching anyway.

Berko, typically. thanks

There are many fantastic halls still not used, one at Hurstpeirpoint springs to mind. Im sure there are some very good venues still out there not being used at present


but Ceroc don't whinge about that (Ceroc's got a lot of anti-competitive habits, especially recently, but venue-hogging isn't one of them).

As for Ceroc I've heard all sorts of things over in Kent when others have tried booking dances in their venues, Loud noises, complaints to hall hirer to get them out and cancel their dance nights. Even heard of ceroc people standing outside these venues stating to dancers dont go in other wise you wont be welcome at ceroc and even know of dancers banned, so what all this. But same the ceroc kent Ive heard started picking on another Kent club trying to book their venues doing exactly what they hate in theirs! as for Ceroc in Horsham Sussex they use they same venue as another but the night before and have announced several times that the class has closed down or their dance has cancelled. Also heard this Tactic going on in Hampshire too. Do dancers want this politics?

Is there too much choice or not enough? Do we want busy venues or events diluted?

Minnie M
17th-February-2007, 11:28 AM
..........Another example - Wolsey Hall in Cheshunt is used by Ceroc and another Jive organisation (Just Jivin' I think), sometimes on consecutive evenings ....

Personally I get very confused between the two when adding to my list, and the non-ceroc organiser has got upset with me a couple of times - so, I agree with Bluey it IS confusing, and must be to the dancers as well.

Mostly, we do tend to recognise events by the venues rather than the organisers.


..........but Ceroc don't whinge about that (Ceroc's got a lot of anti-competitive habits, especially recently, but venue-hogging isn't one of them)....

Sorry David, but this is not true, some DO get upset

PS: This is a good argument - maybe a kindly moderator could start a new thread with these latest comments as we have gone completely off thread

David Bailey
17th-February-2007, 02:14 PM
In fact its been heard that FL have gone round Surrey targetting other clubs venues, rather than create their own plus also trying to get in at Jags Jives venue in Bookham too Ive heard recently as well.
Yeah, well a lot of things get "heard". I usually call these the "Man down the pub told me so" stories...

I very much doubt FL organisers are rampaging around Surrey destroying everything in their path, unless they're causing death by loud shirt wearing.

Yes, they're probably looking at venues other MJ operators use, but I'd guess that's because those are presumably known as good venues for MJ-ers.


{snip stuff} Do dancers want this politics?
If it's an unavoidable price to pay for choice and quality, then yes, I do.


Is there too much choice or not enough? Do we want busy venues or events diluted?
Good questions. I'd vote for "not enough" at the moment.

David Bailey
17th-February-2007, 02:19 PM
Mostly, we do tend to recognise events by the venues rather than the organisers.
Possibly, but that's because most MJ organisers look the same from a distance :)


Sorry David, but this is not true, some DO get upset
Sorry - I wasn't clear what I meant.

I'm sure some (most) Ceroc Franchisees don't like competition using the same venues they do. But some / most Ceroc Franchisees don't like competition at all - in fact, most businesses don't like competition.

But Ceroc HQ doesn't seem to have the same anti-competitive stance, as a formal policy, to venues as it does for DJs and teachers. I've not heard of Ceroc trying to muscle the venue organisers, for example, or send out national "don't go to this venue when we're not here" guidelines. It may have happened of course, but I've not heard of it.

That's all I meant.

Bluey
17th-February-2007, 02:49 PM
But Ceroc HQ doesn't seem to have the same anti-competitive stance, as a formal policy, to venues as it does for DJs and teachers. I've not heard of Ceroc trying to muscle the venue organisers, for example, or send out national "don't go to this venue when we're not here" guidelines. It may have happened of course, but I've not heard of it.

That's all I meant.
suggest you dig around what happening down in Kent with ceroc & dance riveria!!



Yeah, well a lot of things get "heard". I usually call these the "Man down the pub told me so" stories... .
Facts not stories!!



I very much doubt FL organisers are rampaging around Surrey
well apparently hes contacted just the independents venues its been stated, so whys he not putting on dances at well known popular ceroc venues, or that he fears backlash from ceroc?



Yes, they're probably looking at venues other MJ operators use,

So why don’t they find a different hall themselves and build up their own profile, rather than take on another clubs, then possible resentment towards FL, most local clubs seem to work together including ceroc & independents to avoid clashes, BUT then again FL is not local in Surrey therefore most likely doesn’t care who he upsets

Chef
17th-February-2007, 03:40 PM
It gets really confusing when another operator goes into another clubs venue, because its deemed unfair on the original club that built up the venue profile. In Sussex we used to have a fantastic night out with Freestyle Frenzie at Marletts, Burgess Hill over 5 years ago. Then another big modern jive club booked it and werent so good, they used to leave prerecorded cd's on during the main part of the evening running that that werent relating to people on the dance floor. Any way we used hear "Martlets is on tonight" and off we would troop miles only to discover it wasnt the good club on but the one many didn't like. People got confused, venues lost its unique one club status, both clubs numbers dwindled and both closed. WE lost a great venue because another club thought of jumping on the band wagon and creaming the success built up by another.

I can understand that it might get confusing for some people, if not quite a lot of them. Personally I have always used sites called http://www.lyndaslist.com or http://www.jivehive.co.uk to look up both the venue and the operator of the dance events in the south east area.. Beacuse I travel a lot and there is quite a good choice of operators in my area I have to make sure that all the miles that I drive are to the best operators events. I have occasionally traveled to new events and they have fallen way below my required standards but all I do is look through the list of events that are coming up, delete any events by bad operators and then consider the rest. I would rather travel a long way and have an enjoyable evening than go 10 mins down the road to a place where I wouldn't enjoy myself.

If the quality of the two operators at Martletts was so different and the drive was so long I would have thought it would have mattered enough to people to make sure they went to the event with acceptable standards. If they didn't check then I guess it shows they didn't care or didn't see any difference.



Is there too much choice or not enough? Do we want busy venues or events diluted?

I would like more choice and for people not to go to the events that are of the lowest quality to that the worst events quickly die off.

I would like a VENUE to be busy enough that the owners of the venue don't suddenly think that it would be better to bulldoze the site and put a car park there.

The dilution of venues thing is harder thing to answer. You can take a great event and put a competing event nearby in time or place and every punter that you pull away detracts completely from the profit of the better event. I am making a wild guess here BUT IF 80% of your punters pay the costs of the hall, DJ, teachers, front of house staff and all other fixed cost then the other 20% provide the profit. If you could pull out 15% of a venues punters by any means then you would make it seriously not worth the origional venues time and effort, despite the better venue providing the superior product. Of couse, who decides which event is better?

Sometime I think it comes down to which organisation can stand the pain of operating with low or no profit for longer before the other (possibly smaller) organistion gives up. Might winning out over quality is not what I would like to see because it is not good for me.

David Bailey
17th-February-2007, 04:11 PM
suggest you dig around what happening down in Kent with ceroc & dance riveria!!
You've got me confused with someone who cares enough :na: :)


Facts not stories!!
No, they're stories, and uncorroborated stories at that - unless there's some attribution or corroboration. You yourself call them rumours.


well apparently hes contacted just the independents venues its been stated, so whys he not putting on dances at well known popular ceroc venues, or that he fears backlash from ceroc?
Believe it or not, I'm not doing the PR for Funky Lush - I'm not even totally sure who runs it, come to that, is it Toby? Or maybe it's The Ten :eek: - anyway, I suggest you ask someone like Toby if you want an explanation of their business strategy.


So why don’t they find a different hall themselves and build up their own profile, rather than take on another clubs, then possible resentment towards FL, most local clubs seem to work together including ceroc & independents to avoid clashes, BUT then again FL is not local in Surrey therefore most likely doesn’t care who he upsets
I refer the gentleman (?) to my previous answer, re: not being the FL spokesman. In fact, I've never been to a FL event, come to think of it.

But from what I do know, I don't believe there's much overlap between FL attendees and Ceroc attendees - you might as well ask "How dare a salsa organiser run weekly nights at Berkhamstead Town Hall, don't they know it's a Ceroc venue?"

To get back on-topic, do you think in general that different MJ organisations should "respect" competitors' "home" venues, even if that puts them at a competitive disadvantage?

Minnie M
17th-February-2007, 04:42 PM
Spoke to Colin Shaul last night and he said a couple of people had rung him thinking the Ashtead event on my list was his event. I even had someone ring me, thinking I had made a mistake :eek:

Yes I know, my list clearly states it is Funky Lush and has FL contact details, but some people don't see further than the address/venue.

This happened in the Southampton area last year, when two operators used the same venue, one strictly modern jive, the other a variation of MJ - it also caused lost of confusion to the dancers as both were aimed at Modern Jive - unfortunately the original organiser was the worse off and had to cancel future bookings.

It is such a shame organisers do have to 'double-up' it really does cause confusion for some (I know I get the emails and phone calls)

I am off to Ashtead tonight (I know it is Funky Lush) and looking forward to it - however, tonight it will be different as the music and dance styles differ from the standard MJ events. It will be interesting to see how many 'new' people will be there.

Minnie M
17th-February-2007, 06:26 PM
Change my mind about posting this ! (sorry - there is no delete option)