Turning your partner...one hand is more troublesome than the other!

[Terpsichorea]

OK, following the path of 'back to basics' inspired by all you good folks, I was wondering whether anyone could offer me any advice about an occasional issue which crops up when turning a lady clockwise with my right hand (yes I am being picky). No matter what I do, there is always a subtle feeling of it not being quite right somehow. It's as if at the top of the turn I am always slightly blocking the lady's rotation with the side of my hand (if this isn't clear I can post a Youtoob to demonstrate). The problem goes if I use just two fingers to guide the turn, but it's also occasionally happened that the lady will simply let go of my hand or grip onto the two fingers. It just doesn't feel smooth.

So...if anyone has some advice, bring it on!

[Gav]

OK, following the path of 'back to basics' inspired by all you good folks, I was wondering whether anyone could offer me any advice about an occasional issue which crops up when turning a lady clockwise with my right hand (yes I am being picky). No matter what I do, there is always a subtle feeling of it not being quite right somehow. It's as if at the top of the turn I am always slightly blocking the lady's rotation with the side of my hand (if this isn't clear I can post a Youtoob to demonstrate). The problem goes if I use just two fingers to guide the turn, but it's also occasionally happened that the lady will simply let go of my hand or grip onto the two fingers. It just doesn't feel smooth.

So...if anyone has some advice, bring it on!

Now this one sounds like it's not your fault (for a change :rofl: ).
It should work fine, I'm also in the 2 finger camp :blush: . Experienced ladies can cope with it, less experiences ladies find it harder to grip.
The follower shouldn't be holding onto your hand, so if they're gripping, the fix is to ask them not to.
If they're letting go it could be that your hand isn't centred above their head or that you're just losing connection. Try actually looking at your hands as they turn and see if you see it happening, it might give you a clue.
Hope that helps.

[Terpsichorea]

Now this one sounds like it's not your fault (for a change :rofl: ).
It should work fine, I'm also in the 2 finger camp :blush: . Experienced ladies can cope with it, less experiences ladies find it harder to grip.
The follower shouldn't be holding onto your hand, so if they're gripping, the fix is to ask them not to.
If they're letting go it could be that your hand isn't centred above their head or that you're just losing connection. Try actually looking at your hands as they turn and see if you see it happening, it might give you a clue.
Hope that helps.

Nice one Gav, much appreciated, I will give it a go. Is the 2 finger camp the orthodox 'approved' way to lead in Ceroc then?

[Chef]

Using just two fingers to guide the turn is the thing that works for me (no matter which hand I use) and I bring the hand up to just above the womans head and draw a small halo around the womans head to guide the turn. I think the two useful words in that description are "halo" and guide".

The "halo" term indicates that the diameter of the circle is small. Using the hand to bring a big circle around her is going to seriously disturb the womans balance during the turn. So if you are going to guide her in a circle then keep it small - under ideal circumstances you will not need to describe a circle over the womans head at all - at least for a single turn (see below for an explanation).

I use the term "guide" because all the power for the turn is provided to the womans hand before it is raised to her head height. When you want to lead a turn the woman is prepared for the turn by turning the woman a small way in the direction OPPOSITE to the intended direction of the turn (this is usually accomplished by absorbing the energy of rotation of the womans preceeding turn) and then providing the energy for the turn while the womans hand is still at waist level where it can most easily transfer the energy to her centre of mass. This energy is supplied smoothly, without jolts, to the woman so that it doesn't throw her off balance as she goes into the turn. The energy should be supplied to the woman before you start to raise her hand to a position over her head. Then your two fingers will remain over her head (fingers pointing down) to act as a referance point for her to turn under.

DO NOT lower the hand until the woman has fully completed her turn. If you try to lower the hand as a means of dragging the woman through the last part of her turn you will pull her off balance. Just accept the fact that some women will turn smoothly and easily and some will feel like they have glue under her feet.

The things that are going wrong that you describe (assuming you are doing your job correctly) are usually,

a) during a return the woman will put a foot down, transfer weight to it and then turn on that foot. This means that her turn will travel. Your fingers cannot act as a stable referance point above her head and now you and your fingers must travel with her. This can be due to either the follower putting too much energy into her turn which throws her off balance, you have put your fingers to the left side of her head thereby pushing her to her left (and off balance) or you are drawing a big and forceful circle around her head and this pulls her off balance as she turns. Even if you are doing everything right I have found that 95% of intermediate follows will travel to their left on a simple return, pulling you after them as they go. They have developed it as a result of bad leading during leaning and practiced it to a fine art in resulting years.

b) The gripping of fingers is the result of the follower falling, or being led off balance and they grab hold of something close (your fingers) to stop them falling over. The only thing that you can do is to ensure that you are not putting the woman off balance.


Unfortuately MOST (but not all) MJ organisations do not teach the individual elements of dancing as seperte skills. If you can do the individual elements correctly then they usually fit together smoothly. There are some really useful workshops about (especially at weekenders) but often the people that really need them don't have enough self awareness to realise they need them.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Gav]

Nice one Gav, much appreciated, I will give it a go. Is the 2 finger camp the orthodox 'approved' way to lead in Ceroc then?

Never been taught it, it just works for me.

BTW, the 2 fingers thing is only when guiding followers in turns though. Not generally when leading :sick:

[Terpsichorea]

Using just two fingers to guide the turn is the thing that works for me (no matter which hand I use) and I bring the hand up to just above the womans head and draw a small halo around the womans head to guide the turn. I think the two useful words in that description are "halo" and guide".

The "halo" term indicates that the diameter of the circle is small. Using the hand to bring a big circle around her is going to seriously disturb the womans balance during the turn. So if you are going to guide her in a circle then keep it small - under ideal circumstances you will not need to describe a circle over the womans head at all - at least for a single turn (see below for an explanation).

I use the term "guide" because all the power for the turn is provided to the womans hand before it is raised to her head height. When you want to lead a turn the woman is prepared for the turn by turning the woman a small way in the direction OPPOSITE to the intended direction of the turn (this is usually accomplished by absorbing the energy of rotation of the womans preceeding turn) and then providing the energy for the turn while the womans hand is still at waist level where it can most easily transfer the energy to her centre of mass. This energy is supplied smoothly, without jolts, to the woman so that it doesn't throw her off balance as she goes into the turn. The energy should be supplied to the woman before you start to raise her hand to a position over her head. Then your two fingers will remain over her head (fingers pointing down) to act as a referance point for her to turn under.

DO NOT lower the hand until the woman has fully completed her turn. If you try to lower the hand as a means of dragging the woman through the last part of her turn you will pull her off balance. Just accept the fact that some women will turn smoothly and easily and some will feel like they have glue under her feet.

The things that are going wrong that you describe (assuming you are doing your job correctly) are usually,

a) during a return the woman will put a foot down, transfer weight to it and then turn on that foot. This means that her turn will travel. Your fingers cannot act as a stable referance point above her head and now you and your fingers must travel with her. This can be due to either the follower putting too much energy into her turn which throws her off balance, you have put your fingers to the left side of her head thereby pushing her to her left (and off balance) or you are drawing a big and forceful circle around her head and this pulls her off balance as she turns. Even if you are doing everything right I have found that 95% of intermediate follows will travel to their left on a simple return, pulling you after them as they go. They have developed it as a result of bad leading during leaning and practiced it to a fine art in resulting years.

b) The gripping of fingers is the result of the follower falling, or being led off balance and they grab hold of something close (your fingers) to stop them falling over. The only thing that you can do is to ensure that you are not putting the woman off balance.


Unfortuately MOST (but not all) MJ organisations do not teach the individual elements of dancing as seperte skills. If you can do the individual elements correctly then they usually fit together smoothly. There are some really useful workshops about (especially at weekenders) but often the people that really need them don't have enough self awareness to realise they need them.

Hope this helps a bit.


Thanks very much for such a detailed response - I found this bit DO NOT lower the hand until the woman has fully completed her turn, particularly interestingbecause (erk) I know I occasionally do this (but I'm not the only one honest!). I don't think that's the root cause of my turning issue (it occurs at the top of the turn) but it's a good stylistic point to bear in mind.:nice:

[Terpsichorea]

Never been taught it, it just works for me.

BTW, the 2 fingers thing is only when guiding followers in turns though. Not generally when leading :sick:

Soz, doh I meant guiding in turns :blush:

[Gav]

Soz, doh I meant guiding in turns :blush:

Just checking. I had visions of you leading with 2 fingers from now on, proudly telling everyone that this bloke "Gav" told you to! :rofl:

[Terpsichorea]

Just checking. I had visions of you leading with 2 fingers from now on, proudly telling everyone that this bloke "Gav" told you to! :rofl:

BUT HE TOLD ME TO DO IT, IT SEEMED SO PLAUSIBLE! :really:

[Chef]

Thanks very much for such a detailed response - I found this bit DO NOT lower the hand until the woman has fully completed her turn, particularly interestingbecause (erk) I know I occasionally do this (but I'm not the only one honest!). I don't think that's the root cause of my turning issue (it occurs at the top of the turn) but it's a good stylistic point to bear in mind.:nice:

I can assure you that you are not the only person that does this. My partner and I were at a venue last night where it was so common that my partner was left with oly 4 people that she would risk dancing with (she has had her shoulders injured by people yanking her arm backwads ove her head in this way).

It is NOT a style point. It is a health and safety point. Sit in a swivel chair and put your right hand above your left ear. Then ask someone to stand behind you, take hold of your hand and then try to pull your hand behind you and then down to your waist level. I suspect you will find the experience painful as well as lacking in style.

If you cause your follower pain then she will stiffen her arms to try and protect herself against the pain you can inflict upon her at any time. You will find her much harder to lead. Causing the follower discomfort breaks the presumption of trust that many followers initially have towards us leaders.

Experience a couple of classes as a follower (with male leads) to understand the carnage that is dealt out to followers.

Lead without undue force. It is always better to disconnect in a failing move rather than cause discomfort (unless you are saving the lady from hitting the floor).

[Whitebeard]

DO NOT lower the hand until the woman has fully completed her turn. If you try to lower the hand as a means of dragging the woman through the last part of her turn you will pull her off balance. Just accept the fact that some women will turn smoothly and easily and some will feel like they have glue under her feet.



On the other hand don't leave your hand up there too long as the follower may decide that you want her to do a second turn. It's happened to me a couple of times.

[Whitebeard]

I had this very same problem with right-handed turns in early days and benefited greatly from advice given by Gadget and others in this forum.

Now, these years later its hard to remember what all my fuss was about as the hand connection now seems so easy and natural and yet so much information is being passed through this constantly changing hand contact.

[spindr]

If you are leading a turn with two fingers -- look at where your other fingers are. If they are "just" curled up at the knuckles you might find that you get the follower's hand caught between a finger and a knuckle. Try pointing the "spare" fingers straight (sort of horizontal) with the "turning" fingers vertical. This will give you an extra knuckle length of lead -- and extra length always helps :)

SpinDr

[Gadget]

~when turning a lady clockwise with my right hand (yes I am being picky). No matter what I do, there is always a subtle feeling of it not being quite right somehow.~

So...if anyone has some advice, bring it on!
The first thing I advocate is the 'pistol grip' hand hold - point your finger and 'shoot' something. Now relax your hand. See how your middle finger is slightly curled - let your partner's hand rest on (hook over) this finger.

This hold has a couple of things going for it:
- The index finger can be used for lateral guidance in the lead (eg in a man-spin)
- The index finger can be easily slipped over the top of the follower's hand to scissor it and prevent them from taking it away (eg in a yo-yo so they don't go into a hatch-back, or for a 'freeze')
- You can use the 'Spindle' method of turning the follower. This is why I mentioned it...

"Spindle" turns:
The middle finger acts as a central 'Spindle' that the follower's hand curls round and maintains the connection with you through the spin.

To lead a clockwise turn with the right hand...
1) start raising your hand to shoulder height so it's mid-way between your left shoulder and your partners. your hand should be rotating so it's palm down by this point. This action should have the follower stepping onto the foot they will be pivoting on.
{Note, good followers who don't travel much will not need the hand taken so far to the left; ideally it should be mid-way between the right shoulder and your partner at this point - taking it too far over in this case will throw the follower off balance.}

2) continue the motion smoothly to position your hand a fist's distance above their hair-line.
{Note, some follower's axis of rotation is not here, in which case, keep your hand here and use the articulation in your fingers (and perhaps the wrist if it's a bit wild)}
{Further note; partner's vary in height - make sure that you adjust your hand height for the height of your partner!}

3) draw a circle (halo) with your finger, keeping the connection in the direction of the spin. For assisted spins, it's this finger that is all the assistance you need to give your partner; otherwise, just 'feel' your partner as they go round.

4) once they come round to face, you will feel in your finger a slight pressure pushing your nail; lower the hand to the same shoulder height, rotating your hand to collect again into the 'pistol grip'. This is when the follower's feet come together.

5) smooth motion continuing and lower the hand slightly towards the follower's left hip, leading them to step back.

And that's it.
Hope it helps.