Lead support for followers improvisations

[frodo]

Inspired by the following post on the 'Who's the boss' thread.

... Best thing you can do in any case is either join in, or act as a support (a lot of great followers' improvisations rely on having good 'passive' support from the lead).

Does anyone have suggestions on what kinds of things are best to do to support improvisations from a follower.

Particularly in the situation of a less advanced lead and a more advanced follower.


My support is limited to the following. It would be interesting to know what other leads do / what followers prefer.


A) Give space where I'm not actually leading much in the way of moves, perhaps only holding a single hand at a distance.


B) Spend less time actually in contact.


C) Try and give the impression I'm happy with it verbally or by smiling.

[ducasi]

First, I think a lot of what I do allows followers to improvise as and when they want to do it – I try to avoid the "now wiggle woman!" approach.

When my partner chooses to do something beyond what I have led, I try to...

pay close attention to the connection
match tension/compression as appropriate

I probably could do better, but couldn't we all. ;)

[MartinHarper]

I avoid "improvising" when I follow, for various reasons, but I have played around with it a bit. Here's what I learned, and what I occasionally put into practice as a lead.

1. Move me slowly. If I'm having to take big steps, I can't style them. If I'm having to triple spin, my style options are limited to whether or not I want to fall over. If I'm not moving then I've got nothing to style. It's easiest when I'm being slowly moved in some direction, or turned slowly. That way, if I can't think of anything that matches the music I can fall back to what I'm being lead, but if I can think of something then there are hundreds of ways to put it into where I'm going.

2. Only move me slowly sometimes. Ask me to style all the time, and I'll run out of ideas very rapidly. The time you spend whizzing me around is my "thinking time", as well as being very enjoyable in its own right.

3. Don't make me think about your lead. You have three types of moves: stuff I can't follow, stuff I can follow if I concentrate, and stuff I can follow without conscious thought. Only the last type allows me to concentrate on the music and how I can express it.

4. Give me ideas. The easiest way to style is to pick up on something you're doing and do it back at you. Move yourself stylishly, and maybe I'll see something I can do, or something I can fail to do in a new and interesting way.

5. Match my pressure. If I'm pulling your lead arm it either means I want some counter-balance to style with, or (more likely) it means that I'm falling over. In either case, I'd appreciate you being "there for me" as a "passive support". That said, match it within limits. Too much force is bad for both our joints.

6. Keep to your plans. Suppose that every time I add style, you immediately alter your planned moves to "accomodate me". That sucks. It means that every time I style, I'm sabotaging you. If I wanted to continuously be in control, I'd be leading. Pay attention to me, respond to me, but make sure you're in control.

Take with salt to taste.

[StokeBloke]

Please... all you followers out there in cerocscotland-land.. please tell me how to encourage and get the most out of this. I love it when the follow does their thing and I try to wait, watch and join in... to try and bounce their ideas with them. But I don't know if I am doing it well or not.

When it comes to hijacking and improvisation, how do I become a willing accomplice? A list of 'please dont do...''s would be an excellent start :wink:

[Frankie_4711]

One thing I hate is being allowed a bit of space, only to be yanked back into a move half way through a wiggle. Try and make sure your follower has finished their bit before you take back your lead ... or should I say, let them give you back the lead.

Make it obvious if you're enjoying what they're doing, that you approve, that you're taking an interest - don't just stand there looking bored.

Make sure your lead is firm but light - it's quite hard to 'take control' of a forceful lead, but equally a wishy-washy lead is no good for anything!

Might come back to this later, but got to go to work now ... will keep thinking.

[Trousers]

One thing I hate is being allowed a bit of space, only to be yanked back into a move half way through a wiggle. Try and make sure your follower has finished their bit before you take back your lead ... or should I say, let them give you back the lead.
.

I'm so glad you said that

I admit it I will YANK (well continue to lead but maybe forcefully) a woman back in line with my artistic (yeah alright) plans. And yup ! I got accused of being a control freak for it.

But if a lady is going to take some initiative she has to take control. That isn't a flimsy "oooerr I'm Wiggling" with a loose arm because in my head I have two moves lined up to fit the rythm of the music and by hook or by crook I will do them!!

You have to sit back into your wiggle and give me pressure enough to wake me up so that I actually notice that you are doing something.

The best person for this I know is (I hope I get this right) Almost an Angel (dances in Fleet) there is no way on earth if she starts to play you can stop her.

Thats how to steal some time in my book and she should give lessons!

:flower:

[Caro]

Here's what I learned, and what I occasionally put into practice as a lead.
(snip all the good stuff)


:eek: are you in my mind???? How much time have you spent following - you think like a follow (no I won't say like a woman :innocent: ), it's scary!!!

Great post :worthy:

[mikeyr]

I'm so glad you said that

I admit it I will YANK (well continue to lead but maybe forcefully) a woman back in line with my artistic (yeah alright) plans. And yup ! I got accused of being a control freak for it.

But if a lady is going to take some initiative she has to take control. ~snip ~

You have to sit back into your wiggle and give me pressure enough to wake me up so that I actually notice that you are doing something.



Yes, Followers if you have been given the opportunity to improvise, the way to ensure you can finish your stuff without being pulled back in too early is to weight the connection so the leader has to support it. When you are finished
bring the connection back to neutral so that the lead can continue from a point of balance.

One other thing I would like to say is wait until your lead gives you the opportunity dont just take it. The dance is lead!

I will go further and improve on the old addage that states followers are the picture leads leads are the frame, to followers are the picture leads are the artist. Let us paint you as we see you!

[Lory]

the way to ensure you can finish your stuff without being pulled back in too early is to weight the connection so the leader has to support it. When you are finished
bring the connection back to neutral so that the lead can continue from a point of balance.


Interestingly, in WCS, exactly the opposite is taught.. a follow is taught to 'disengage' herself from the lead, if she wants to do her own thing, then to re-establish the connection by either travelling to the end of the slot, till 'leverage*' is reached or to push into the connection, until compression is felt.

(leverage* is the point at which both partners feel tension in their arms)

[straycat]

I will go further and improve on the old addage that states followers are the picture leads leads are the frame, to followers are the picture leads are the artist. Let us paint you as we see you!

Myself, I go the opposite way. A frame does not dictate the picture, or paint it, and a frame is not (in my book) in any way the artist. A frame is there to complement the picture, and show it off in its best possible light, not to change it or (re) paint it.

Besides - ladies are usually far better at painting themselves than I am at painting them. I'm there to help my partners look good, which, in turn, makes me look good. If I dictate to my partners how to look good, I'm going to wind up looking all manner of stupid...

[Chef]

Interestingly, in WCS, exactly the opposite is taught.. a follow is taught to 'disengage' herself from the lead, if she wants to do her own thing, then to re-establish the connection by either travelling to the end of the slot, till 'leverage*' is reached or to push into the connection, until compression is felt.

(leverage* is the point at which both partners feel tension in their arms)

Absolutely right. The difference between the two conventions sometimes causes me confusion. Often MJ follows will put a lot of tension into the connection to signal that they want supporting on an improvisation (although it has to be said that a lot of MJ follows have a huge amout of tension in the connection as a matter of course - but I try not to dance with them).

But if you are off doing these improvisations please don't disappear into your dream worlds of improvisation heaven. please remember

a) I will want the lead back at some point in the rest of the track.

b) to fit in the phrasing of the music I am going to want to start leading again on beat 1 of a bar. So there is no point giving it back to me on beat 2 or 3.

c) I will want to deliver you to another opportunity to improvise at the next accent point or start of a break. There is no point grabbing the lead two beats BEFORE these points in the music. Similarly there is no point extending your improvisations to the point when you give me back the lead at the start of a break. I am listening to the music in order to deliver you to these windows of opportunity in the music. I expect you to be also listening to the music to know when to end your improvisations and return the lead.

A dance couple are only as good as their partnership with each other and the music. If you forget about either your partner or the music then the result is not going to as good.

[robd]

I'm so glad you said that

I admit it I will YANK (well continue to lead but maybe forcefully) a woman back in line with my artistic (yeah alright) plans. And yup ! I got accused of being a control freak for it.

But if a lady is going to take some initiative she has to take control. That isn't a flimsy "oooerr I'm Wiggling" with a loose arm because in my head I have two moves lined up to fit the rythm of the music and by hook or by crook I will do them!!

You have to sit back into your wiggle and give me pressure enough to wake me up so that I actually notice that you are doing something.

The best person for this I know is (I hope I get this right) Almost an Angel (dances in Fleet) there is no way on earth if she starts to play you can stop her.

Thats how to steal some time in my book and she should give lessons!

:flower:

I never, ever yank a follower back into line from some improvisation they may be doing whether it was an improvisation that I gave them an opening for or that they took themselves. I simply abort whatever it is I was planning to lead. Maybe other leaders are thinking further ahead in the music than I do? I will sometimes miss the signal that a person wishes to play and go on to my next planned move. In this case, either the move breaks down or the follower must abort her playing and follow the lead in a timely fashion. Lisa is the best follower I have experienced for being able to seamlessly abort any improvisation that she may have been doing (and not too many do it better than her) and resume following without any kind of disconnected feeling for the leader. Sensitivity to the partner and quick reactions working together methinks. Almost An Angel is also a great improviser and much more musical than many dancers. i have suffered death by musicality at her hands too many times :blush: She frequently leads people herself and maybe this helps her take control when dancing as a follower (or maybe not) and, yes, she does give lessons. At Fleet (IIRC)

[mikeyr]

Absolutely right. The difference between the two conventions sometimes causes me confusion. Often MJ follows will put a lot of tension into the connection to signal that they want supporting on an improvisation (although it has to be said that a lot of MJ follows have a huge amout of tension in the connection as a matter of course - but I try not to dance with them). ~snip~

More ably put than ever I could have. :respect:

[Ghost]

b) to fit in the phrasing of the music I am going to want to start leading again on beat 1 of a bar. So there is no point giving it back to me on beat 2 or 3.

I've been testing this theory lately and so far all the women consistently give me back the lead on the "1". Now in fairness they're all good at playing, but I'd say an easy way to avoid needing to yank women back into line is to wait for the next "1" when hopefully they'll give it back to you cleanly. Added bonuses are that
a) They've just hit the accent and styled it out :awe:
b) You can expect to be at the beginning and so plan moves from there (if you dance that way).

One question for follows though - do you prefer the guy to stay still when you're playing, or to move and play as well?

[Jamie]

One question for follows though - do you prefer the guy to stay still when you're playing, or to move and play as well?

I prefer my lead to stay more or less on the spot... Only thing is if you move and play aswell then I'm limited to what I can do.. if that makes any sense!

When I lead, I focus all attention on my follow and go with what they want to do.. I'm usually on the spot and don't travel when allowing my follows room to play.

[Chef]

I have been sitting in a meeting all day on Failure Mode Effect Analysis and it got me thinking about how the transfer of control in a dance between a leader and follower can go wrong.

Before a leader can give support for a followers improvisations the leader has to at least know that his role has changed from leading to supporting. As far as I know there is no taught convention for this within MJ (although there is within WCS). If the lead doesn't understand that their role has changed then they are just going to keep leading (and expecting the follower to follow).

The easiest way for a leader to know that his role has changed is if he leads it by leading the follower into a window of opportunity for them to improvise. This is best done at a point where the music would reasonably suggest it to both parties. Even at this point it is a REQUEST that the follower may chose to decline by forcing the issue (perhaps by the simple expedient of moving to the leaders side and the leader starting to lead some sort of move). If they accept the opportunity to improvise they can hand the lead back by facing their leader with an active muscle toned connection (but not heavily weighted) in their arm a beat or two ahead of the start point in a phrase.

The follower can REQUEST (again, there is no convention about how this is done) the leader to reliquish control so that they can improvise but if they assume that they have control then they risk being off balnace as they are yanked into another move as they start to improvise just because the leader has not yet gotten the message and reliquished active leading.

In both cases, leaders and followers have to make a REQUEST and wait to see if that request has been granted before changing their status as leaders or followers otherwise they risk the sort of confusion that ends up in followers being yanked (or being let go of when they think they are going to be getting support). Followers could also find them standing about like a bit of a lemon because the leader hasn't got the message that the control is being handed back to them.


Perhaps some of you good people on the forum (leaders and followers) could propose some sort of convention for handling this transfer of control between dancers that you would feel would work for both parties.

[Ghost]

Perhaps some of you good people on the forum (leaders and followers) could propose some sort of convention for handling this transfer of control between dancers that you would feel would work for both parties.
Well the easiest way is for the lead to lead a freeze and the follow to end their play on the "1"

For more pro-active follows, look at where a follow can reasonably take over in the moves you lead and at those points pay extra attention to see if they keep moving the way you expect them too. It's quickly apparent when you lead someone out of a sway and they start doing body rolls that they're doing something different. I don't think I've every had a lady play that wasn't obvious from the get-go.

[Caro]

Well the easiest way is for the lead to lead a freeze and the follow to end their play on the "1"


wouldn't you rather have her finishing on 7, re-establishing the normal level of connection for the dance on 7/8, so that you can lead her on 1? Otherwise 3 (4) actions need to be performed on the 1, i.e. finishing playing, re-connecting, (leader realises he's in control again), and leading? Sounds like asking for trouble all that... you might even end up leading her on (sacrilege!) 2 ...

[Twirlie Bird]

I

Before a leader can give support for a followers improvisations the leader has to at least know that his role has changed from leading to supporting. As far as I know there is no taught convention for this within MJ (although there is within WCS). If the lead doesn't understand that their role has changed then they are just going to keep leading (and expecting the follower to follow).


This is exactly the point. I have never been taught how to improvise. I have no idea how I would even start let alone how I would give the lead back. I have seen people playing in their dance and it was excellent. Since then my partner and I have tried to play around with it when we dance together but I wouldn't have a clue how to do it with anyone else. :confused:

I am loving this thread. :respect:

Twirlie Bird
-x-

[TA Guy]

Great advice in this thread.
I have a real problem with this simply because of the non-stop diet of 130bpm thump thump music I'm subjected too. With no slower stuff to speak of, I find it hard to 'learn' how to give the invitation, or to recgonise a request. As a beginner at this stuff, there's just not enough time to get a 'feel' for it. Tho a slap round the head might work :)

Can't wait to try it all out :)

[Ghost]

wouldn't you rather have her finishing on 7, re-establishing the normal level of connection for the dance on 7/8, so that you can lead her on 1? Otherwise 3 (4) actions need to be performed on the 1, i.e. finishing playing, re-connecting, (leader realises he's in control again), and leading? Sounds like asking for trouble all that... you might even end up leading her on (sacrilege!) 2 ...

*gets out calculator*
Hmmm....

Nup, as long as I know she's going to switch back on the 1 then it's not a problem (besides by that point I've a fairly good idea of what she's going to end with....:wink: ). It's also much more likely for there to be an accent on the "1" to make the transition on, than there is on the "7".

[MartinHarper]

Perhaps some of you good people on the forum (leaders and followers) could propose some sort of convention for handling this transfer of control between dancers that you would feel would work for both parties.

Don't transfer control.
Follower plays whenever she can do so.
Leader plays whenever he can do so.

[Ghost]

Don't transfer control.
Follower plays whenever she can do so.
Leader plays whenever he can do so.

I started a cross body lead the other night. The lady styled out the first two steps then styled out a few more. Simple choice on my part - let her take the third step forwards and abandon the move or lead her round anyway and hope she abandonned her play.

[David Bailey]

I started a cross body lead the other night. The lady styled out the first two steps then styled out a few more. Simple choice on my part - let her take the third step forwards and abandon the move or lead her round anyway and hope she abandonned her play.
Some women don't understand how a cross-body move works - no matter how well you lead it, they don't have the "vocabulary" to understand what they should be doing (the same applies to ochos, I've found).

In that case, I find the best way to lead it, is to do a simple "switch places" version first (so you both do a 180 degree anti-CW turn) to get them used to the idea and the motion.

Then, repeat that, but "accelerate" the turn to produce a 540 degree turn to do a "proper" cross-body lead.

[straycat]

I started a cross body lead the other night. The lady styled out the first two steps then styled out a few more. Simple choice on my part - let her take the third step forwards and abandon the move or lead her round anyway and hope she abandonned her play.

Or go with it, and create a new move?

[ducasi]

Before a leader can give support for a followers improvisations the leader has to at least know that his role has changed from leading to supporting. As far as I know there is no taught convention for this within MJ (although there is within WCS). Franck teaches lots of stuff in this area. (You should take the chance to go to his workshops at Utopia in March, though they don't seem to be covering this particular area...)

I think the important thing is that the follower signals a change by making a very noticeable change in the connection. This can vary depending on what the follower wants to do.


wouldn't you rather have her finishing on 7, re-establishing the normal level of connection for the dance on 7/8, so that you can lead her on 1? Certainly it's important that the lead is back in control before the 1 to lead a move on the 1, and so the follower must have finished "doing her thang" before then with sufficient time to transfer the lead back smoothly.

That said, if you're both sufficiently aware of the connection and the music to know when the 1 is coming and that control will be returned then, this process could maybe happen a lot faster.

[Ghost]

Some women don't understand how a cross-body move works - no matter how well you lead it
She was the one who taught me how to do it in the first place :whistle:


Or go with it, and create a new move?
:wink:

[David Bailey]

She was the one who taught me how to do it in the first place :whistle:
Hmmm, well if it's not her fault, there's only 1 other possibility... :na:

[Ghost]

Hmmm, well if it's not her fault, there's only 1 other possibility... :na:

She looked good - I was happy :D

:wink:

[Almost an Angel]

Seeing as though my name has been mentioned in this thread by 2 different leads (thanks trousers and robd - your reward /penance is a dance with me next time i see you:eek: ) I thought I'd better at least post something here.

As for the whole when and where do you improvise I am well known (not sure this is a good thing) for improvising wherever I feel the music needs it. Before I get flamed an berated a lot of my improvisation will not interfere with any lead that I am given. I play with the end of the move and add accents in before the lead comes for the next move. A lot of follows will only improvise when given the opportunity in a kind of 'I've thrown you out and hit the break and wiggle woman'. You can just go through the moves and wait for the lead to give you an opening or you can add your own individual style by improvising between leads or follow part of a move and then will morph it into something else.

Several people in this debate have already mentioned that the lead given is an invitation I'll refer to David Barker - who has previously said ' Dance is an invitation, the leader leads and it's up to the follower to accept that invitation'

This especially true in WCS as Lory and Chef have stated - the leader leads only the direction and movement - it's up to the follow how they get there. The same can be taken in Jive - the invitation is there - I may decide to follow it or amend the move to something else. Take for example a travelling return, you can accept the full invitation as the lead is expecting or you can break it into something else, what about not turning to face the lead and holding for a beat staying facing away then turning in time for them to lead forward, or as you're travelling past him stop and hit an accent in the music- there are many variations. I will admit some of this takes practice and requires the follow to indicate to the lead that they are doing something different.

As for the leads are the frame and follows the picture and the leads are the artists Hmmm- that may be true in part but as Straycat stated sometimes the follows have a better idea of the whole picture. I can't talk for leads in general but I am actively sought out as leads know I will interpret their ideas and will improvise upon them to come up with a blending of the two ideas. In effect a partnership.

Onto the what beat should a follow hand back the lead debate- well musically you probably should be handing it back through 7-8 so the lead realises you've stopped your improvisation for now, a lot of this is to do with connection - however as long as the lead is aware you're returning the lead to him it shouldn't matter (unless he's counting the beats).

Oh well enough of my opinions back to the grindstone. Angel xxx

PS: RobD I'm still not sure whether death my musicality is a compliment or not :confused: