Weekender classes: useful?

[David Bailey]

Based on this:

No ... I was saying the teacher taught what it said on the can and some of the students weren't up to it. He isn't the first teacher, and won't be the last, to suffer that way.
I sometimes think that weekender classes are almost a total waste of time, I've never learnt anything from one.

Big halls, 200-400 people, "30 women on", and so on - it hardly makes for a good teaching environment, does it?

And yes, I know the "Ah, but it gives a taster flavour" argument - I just don't believe it. For example, Anyone doing a massive AT class, where you can only teach the Basic 8 or similar, will probably get a completely wrong idea of what Tango's all about.

Comments? Anyone got any ideas / suggestions?

[Dai]

Well knowing what you guys all think about air steps and all of the acrobactical stuffs - i'll try and say this carefully!! :rolleyes:

I think the ariel classes are brilliant (oh well i'll just say it shall i!!)

For me the classes i look forward to are the lifts, and some advanced styling classes. I'll watch the dips/drops class aswell to see if they are doing one i haven't seen/done before, as i like to add these to my repatoire. (of course i only use them when there is sufficient space)

I have tried doing as many of the classes as possible, but soon realised i learnt so much more from freestyle that my opinion is now that i'll do the workshops which teach you things you won't get to learn in freestyle - i.e. lifts, drops...

The only problem with this is that in an hour session its hard to learn 4 lifts, remember where you have to hold, how to position yourself... and it not like you can practice what you have learnt on the dance floor (a) because you can't just do it with anyone, and (b) its a space thing.

I do however like to watch some of the classes to pick up on little pointers, but actually doing them is not the most helpful as DJ said - there are so many people, and so many women being moved on that its not the best learning envrionment, especially if you are at the back of the class and can't see the stage/teacher's footwork...

I guess thats one of the positives with the ariels classes, they are much smaller groups, so you get much more attention from the teachers.

[LMC]

Perhaps not useful to those who have been dancing for ten years like you have DJ.

However, I actually do "buy" the 'taster' argument for different dance styles. But only if I can get a fixed partner for that class, so there's some consistency in the lead/follow - I really struggled in the one WCS workshop I did at a weekender, because it was impossible in rotation to work out what wasn't working - too many different leads/connections. Trying out different dance styles - even if you don't remember any of it - can help your dancing generally by thinking about other things (e.g. more emphasis on frame and posture in ballroom/AT).

I think that specialist classes like dips/drops and aerials can also be useful - people might not want to pay extra for these as a weekend workshop outside a weekender, but might actually go to them and get safety points etc at a weekender.

'Technique' classes are also quite useful for those of us who haven't been dancing for long - e.g. Franck's classes on connection at the BFG and last year's Storm (shame they weren't better attended) and Style classes can also be useful for confidence, if nothing else.

I am, however, completely indifferent to classes which just teach more intermediate/general moves - or moves in a 'different style'. As a follower, they are no real use to me: I don't want to learn moves that can't be led - and if they can be led, then I don't need to know them. Even for leaders - do you really remember *all* the moves taught? - I'd rather save me feet for the specialist classes you can't get on a weekly basis or the freestyle personally :D (and use the weekly classes to learn more 'general' moves).

[detomo]

Alot of it might depend on what classes you can get in your local area. The range of teachers isn't large where I usually dance, and sometimes at a weekender the lessons provide a different perspective on a aspect of dance. It might be a subject you've covered somewhere else or think you know alot about, but someone else can provide that tip, trick or piece of advice which complements and enhances what you already know.

At Southport I only attended a few classes, but at the Men's Styling class I learnt some points about balance and presentation I hadn't really considered before.

In the past, I've learnt alot about spinning, musicality, style, blues reshaping moves at classes from weekenders. I've also picked up a couple of moves that don't get taught in the area I come from

[Martin]

Based on this:

I sometimes think that weekender classes are almost a total waste of time, I've never learnt anything from one.

Big halls, 200-400 people, "30 women on", and so on - it hardly makes for a good teaching environment, does it?

And yes, I know the "Ah, but it gives a taster flavour" argument - I just don't believe it. For example, Anyone doing a massive AT class, where you can only teach the Basic 8 or similar, will probably get a completely wrong idea of what Tango's all about.

Comments? Anyone got any ideas / suggestions?

Firstly if you put a dance-weekender on with no workshops and just the music, do you think you would get 1500 plus people attending? If so then maybe that is something to try. Not being funny here, who knows, it might work. If you think it would, could be something for you to do and make some megga bucks on the side. :respect:

A lot of the more experienced dancers, go for the social and the dance part (and some also get to teach). Beginners and intermidate dancers will often attend some workshops, hence they must feel there is a benefit for them to do this.

Of course, there is often the option of getting private lessons from the teachers, if one feels that is a better environment to learn.

Personally I go along to socialise, teach and support people like David and Lily or LL if they are doing a workshop.
When attending or supporting David and Lily, I consider it would be very arrogant for me to say I would learn "nothing".

[Yliander]

I think classes at weekenders can be useful - personally for a more general moves/styling class I find that I can cope with the large number of rotations and variety in leads however in a speciality class or a class that I am keen to really get stuck into I find that that the large rotations and variety of leads is a hinderence.

last weekend I started the 1st wcs workshop - but didn't complete it due in large part to the difference in the leads which made it very hard for me to focus on what I should be doing. I did 3 other workshops including the aerials worshop which was fantastic! - with a fixed partner - which I found worked much better for me as it enabled me to focus on what I need to - and ask for feedback from my partner.

I think for those in areas that have limited access to speciality workshops or wish to have just a taste of a different style I think the workshops work well.

in addition there is only so much that can be taught in a one hour workshop no matter what the size of the class

[Alice]

<snip> Lots of useful stuff
:yeah:

I attend the workshops at weekenders if they're something I wouldn't normally have access to, like taster classes for a new style, or advanced classes... and the ones I might have access to but maybe not the opportunity to go (eg for financial reasons)- style workshops, body isolations, spinning etc.

I've learnt a lot from style and body isolations workshops- generally because I've come away with lots of cool ideas and ways to practice them:) :waycool: Sometimes a new approach can make all the difference....

Don't have any use for classes that just teach more intermediate moves- I can learn moves at a weekly class (unless it's a particular style I like or a *really* good teacher... in which case I'd probably try to get to anything they taught:wink: )

[David Bailey]

Firstly if you put a dance-weekender on with no workshops and just the music, do you think you would get 1500 plus people attending?
Don't know, and frankly I don't care either.

This isn't a "What are good marketing ploys for weekender organisers?" thread, this is a "effectiveness of weekender classes" thread.


When attending or supporting David and Lily, I consider it would be very arrogant for me to say I would learn "nothing".
I'm a beginner in Tango, but I believe that, not only would I learn nothing from a 200-strong AT "Basic 8" class, but that it might instead be harmful to beginners by giving the wrong impression of the dance - and that's judging by the weekender AT classes I've done, and by the reports of other AT classes. If that makes me arrogant, fine, I'll live with that.

What I'm getting at is this: is there a better way of teaching at a weekender environment than these massive wholesale classes?

As has been pointed out, it's a great opportunity to bring teachers and pupils together.

How about a supplementary-charge-based smaller class, of maybe 20 people, each paying a fiver each? CeeCee organised this with Ivan and Natalia (Negracha teachers) last June at Southport, and that was useful - so maybe something like that could be formalised?

Most of us can't afford 4 private classes at £50 each - but we could probably afford 4 small scale classes at £5 each...

[Minnie M]

Firstly if you put a dance-weekender on with no workshops and just the music, do you think you would get 1500 plus people attending? If so then maybe that is something to try. Not being funny here, who knows, it might work. If you think it would, could be something for you to do and make some megga bucks on the side. :respect: ..........
:rolleyes: Rhythm Riot, and there are 2000 dancers (loads from the continent) - no classes, just great bands, fantastic DJ's and dancing all day and night :clap: :clap: :clap: I have been going there yearly for the past 5 years and so have a few very notable Cerocers and MJ organisers :whistle:

[FirstMove]

:( I only go for the lessons :(
Freestyle dances are just the icing on the cake - a convenient chance to practise what I just learnt.

I could freestyle my socks off every night of the week if I so chose. I don't because after an hour I've danced everything I know to the point of nausea. Without new things to try out, which are few and far between in a typical MJ class, I'd die of boredom.

After all the previous complaining about punters' cabarets, do we have to get rid of the lessons too? :tears:

[Alice]

:( I only go for the lessons :(
Freestyle dances are just the icing on the cake - a convenient chance to practise what I just learnt.

I could freestyle my socks off every night of the week if I so chose. I don't because after an hour I've danced everything I know to the point of nausea. Without new things to try out, which are few and far between in a typical MJ class, I'd die of boredom.

After all the previous complaining about punters' cabarets, do we have to get rid of the lessons too? :tears:
:yeah:
Apart from anything else, it seems a shame to waste the opportunity to learn with such fabulous teachers around at weekenders! :waycool:

[frodo]

Based on this:

I sometimes think that weekender classes are almost a total waste of time, I've never learnt anything from one.

Big halls, 200-400 people, "30 women on", and so on - it hardly makes for a good teaching environment, does it?

And yes, I know the "Ah, but it gives a taster flavour" argument - I just don't believe it. For example, Anyone doing a massive AT class, where you can only teach the Basic 8 or similar, will probably get a completely wrong idea of what Tango's all about.

The key thing for me is that weekender classes usually have DVD's for purchase, so if I do the class I can review the material later.

Is it a problem they get the wrong idea. You're not going to get much lead / follow / connection / balance etc., but you can make a pleasant hour's class from the basic eight, the odd ocho, and a lunge.

I'm not sure why weekenders cannot have some 2 hour or some 1.5 hour class periods though.

[DavidY]

On one of the Scarborough weekenders (about this time last year, I think?) there were 4 AT classes throughout the weekend.

Because Scarborough is smaller than the big "Holiday camp"-style weekenders, there were fewer people in the workshops to start with, and by the 3rd or 4th one the class size wasn't much bigger than a non-weekender workshop.

While I still don't claim to know much about AT, I felt that over the weekend I did at least get a good impression of what AT was like.

So yes - useful..

[LMC]

I'm a beginner in Tango, but I believe that, not only would I learn nothing from a 200-strong AT "Basic 8" class, but that it might instead be harmful to beginners by giving the wrong impression of the dance - and that's judging by the weekender AT classes I've done, and by the reports of other AT classes.
However (and for AT, read "any other dance style") say that 300 people are in the class and that 200 enjoy it. 50 decide to follow up when they get home by looking into classes in that style. 20 actually go. 10 are horrified that the weekender class didn't really represent the dance, that technique/footwork/frame/whatever are critical and that it takes a bit more than 6 weeks to intermediate. The remaining 10 take up that dance style on a regular basis. Equals more people doing that dance style = more demand for classes = more people for you to dance with if it's AT.

Multiply that by 10 weekenders a year (given that not all weekenders will contain teaching in all dance styles) and that's 200 extra people a year taking up new dance styles. Not a lot, but when you think of the friends they might introduce, etc ...

OK, so I completely made up the numbers - perhaps a weekender follow up survey - say two months on - would be interesting? Hmmm... I feel a poll coming on :D - shame the Forum isn't representative, but might still be interesting.

I think that the problem might lie in the implication in the advertising that someone can "learn" a dance style at a weekender class - just as someone can (apparently) learn to dance from one Ceroc class. Perhaps more emphasis on the different styles being "taster" classes might help?
What I'm getting at is this: is there a better way of teaching at a weekender environment than these massive wholesale classes?


Small class solution
Good idea, and agree that participants (and therefore, hopefully teachers too!) would get far more out of the class. Could be a logistical nightmare if offered/organised 'centrally' (rather than by motivated individuals) though.

[Lynn]

I really struggled in the one WCS workshop I did at a weekender, because it was impossible in rotation to work out what wasn't working - too many different leads/connections. :yeah: I wasn't making any progress with WCS after doing the intro classes repeatedly. I did a couple fixed partner at Southport (thanks to those who partnered me) and it made a big difference. Usually I'm not a fan of 'fixed' as it can make the rotation section even more unbalanced, but sometimes its either go fixed or drop out of the class. :(

I learnt a lot too from Nigel's class on breaks and the structure of music at Southport, so a vote for me too for the technique classes.

But I don't do the MJ moves based classes (anymore) - unless it would be - eg aerials and I would be learning technique along with the moves.

[David Bailey]

Progressing my thinking a bit, I would love to see a "pay-per-class" model developed for weekender classes, I think that'd create value, rather than the current situation.

At the moment, we have a lot of massive "big-name" classes, which - it seems to me - are mainly done for marketing purposes - Joseph and Sadie, Anton and Erin, Vincent and Flavia, and so on.

They look good on the flyers, and we all like to say "Well, when I did a class with Anton Du Beke..." afterwards.

But because the cost is packaged into the entire thing, like with all package deals, we don't really get to value individual items, and I think the quality of the classes suffers as a result. There's a good reason why no one praises the quality of food in an "All you can eat" buffet...

If we assume that an average weekender has 50 classes, with a cost per weekender of (say) £10-15, then of course it's great "value for money". But if you only go to two classes, then you might prefer to pay, say £10 per class to get more individual attention, rather than stomp around in a group of 20 extra women, 200ft from the stage or whatever.

In Southport, an area like the Blues Room is plenty small enough for a class of 10-20 people - it'd be nice to see some "paying" classes available there...

[Lynn]

In Southport, an area like the Blues Room is plenty small enough for a class of 10-20 people - it'd be nice to see some "paying" classes available there...Noooo! The blues room is fab for daytime dancing - run classes in there and you'd lose those mellow afternoon dances.

[David Bailey]

Noooo! The blues room is fab for daytime dancing - run classes in there and you'd lose those mellow afternoon dances.
Which have a grand old tradition of being run, what, twice now?

Blimey, why bother running classes at all, on that basis, why not make it a 3-room, 72+-hour, freestyle-only event? :rolleyes:

[Lynn]

Which have a grand old tradition of being run, what, twice now?Eh? There's always dancing in there in the afternoons - both Sat and Sun, every time.

[David Bailey]

Eh? There's always dancing in there in the afternoons - both Sat and Sun, every time.
Ah, OK, I must have imagined the semi-private class I did in that room last June then. It's my age, clearly, my brain's going...

To be clear, are you against the principle, or the trivial example of implementation?

[johnah]

Noooo! The blues room is fab for daytime dancing - run classes in there and you'd lose those mellow afternoon dances.

I agree Lynn, enough said!:wink:

[tsh]

I sometimes think that weekender classes are almost a total waste of time, I've never learnt anything from one.


I find that there are a few classes that I learn nothing from, but the ones at weekenders are usually not the ones. Maybe I've been lucky with my weekenders - certainly many more people trying to do classes at southport and it would be 'too crowded'. I guess the balance between classes and freestyle is up to the organisers, I'd prefer a weekender where the numbers were determined by class sizes, not freestyle capacity.

Sean

[Lynn]

Ah, OK, I must have imagined the semi-private class I did in that room last June then. It's my age, clearly, my brain's going... People had been dancing in there until shortly before that class, and dancing resumed soon after. I would say you might be able to run some classes between maybe 10:30am - 12:30pm - but that's almost the only time in any 24 hour period when people aren't dancing in there.

1-1 private tution could still go ahead of course as that can happen alongside people dancing.

Not against the idea, I think its great - just not in the blues room!

[LMC]

I'd prefer a weekender where the numbers were determined by class sizes, not freestyle capacity.
Sensible suggestion. I genuinely think this is a good idea, but I can't see it happening, sadly.

People would need to sign up for classes as they booked for the weekender. In principle, this would solve the problem of classes being surprise "mobbed" and having to change venue at the last minute, and hopefully reduce the 200 extra women in some of them. However, it would also reduce flexibility for individuals at the weekender - no more doing classes on a whim, need for gender balancing would possibly result in more people doing 'fixed partners'.

Perhaps a compromise? Classes usually run in 3 venues. Instead, perhaps 2 classes only could be offered as they are at present, with the smallest room (Dance Den at SP) reserved for smaller classes of the nature DJ is suggesting - which *do* have to be booked at the time of booking the weekender, leaving space in the timetable for groups to book semi-private lessons?

[David Bailey]

I agree Lynn, enough said!:wink:
OK John, you think the classes as run at Southport are wonderful and can't be improved?

[Twirlie Bird]

I have not been lucky enough to get to a weekender yet. I am planning on attending one in the summer and I have to admit it is the prospect of many classes that I am most excited about. Reading the reviews of SP there were so many different classes all of which sounded great. I just wouldn't have the opportunity or the money to attend so many different varied classes outside of a weekender.

However the thought of a class with 200+ women doesn't excite me very much. :sick:

[jivecat]

Most of us can't afford 4 private classes at £50 each - but we could probably afford 4 small scale classes at £5 each...

If you were at the Tango Mango you could have 55 minutes of a teacher's time all to yourelf for £23.

[TheTramp]

Noooo! The blues room is fab for daytime dancing - run classes in there and you'd lose those mellow afternoon dances.


Which have a grand old tradition of being run, what, twice now?

Blimey, why bother running classes at all, on that basis, why not make it a 3-room, 72+-hour, freestyle-only event? :rolleyes:

Ummm. I fail to see the point that you're making here David. You're not arguing against what Lynn has said, so why quote her. But I'm sure that you knew that.


Ah, OK, I must have imagined the semi-private class I did in that room last June then. It's my age, clearly, my brain's going...

The blues room has been used for private lessons during the day, with dancing going on all around them. Of course, I guess that it would be semi-private. But still not the same thing as you're suggesting I don't think. And I've not seen any organised classes in the blues room at all during the days. And I've been to all the Southport weekends now.


I agree Lynn, enough said!:wink:


OK John, you think the classes as run at Southport are wonderful and can't be improved?

That's not what he's said (and again, I'm sure that you know it). He said that he doesn't want classes during the day in the blues room, as that serves a different purpose. In no way has he said that the classes can't be improved.

[frodo]

...
However the thought of a class with 200+ women doesn't excite me very much. :sick:
In a 50:50 gender balanced weekender it seems much more likely to be the other way round (except for some other dance styles which may be beginner leader unfriendly).


Which one reason I like the idea of of gender balancing specific classes / pre-booking some specific classes.

Particularly given the way fixed couples magnify the imbalance.

[MartinHarper]

Big halls, 200-400 people, "30 women on", and so on - it hardly makes for a good teaching environment, does it?

In the MJ world, Rock Bottoms are good at giving appropriately sized workshops at weekenders. Ceroc and Jive Addiction tend to huge classes, but both weekenders have smaller workshops around. The smallest weekender class I took was at Sultans of Swing, and comprised just four couples. Obviously this doesn't work if you want to learn a flavour-of-the-month dance with flavour-of-the-month teachers.

While we're brainstorming, here's an idea. Designate a time and place. Play music. Have people practice dancing. Get teacher(s) to wander round and have a look. When they see an opportunity to intervene, they can do so. Fix some bad posture here, help with an awkward lead there, and so forth. If you don't get any feedback, at least you had some good dances.

[ducasi]

I can't say that any class I've done at a *large* weekend has been useful – fun, certainly, interesting, maybe, but I seem to always miss the ones that were useful.

Next time I shall avoid the crowds, as I have the feeling the most useful workshops are the ones with the lowest attendances.