Is Dance a conversation?

[David Bailey]

I was thinking about this last night, and I now wonder if the "dance as conversation" analogy is really helpful past a certain point?

Contiunous lead-and-follow connection is not like a conversation to me - the only other analogy that I can think of is, ahem, a bit rude. :wink:

Can anyone else think of a better analogy than conversation?

[straycat]

Can anyone else think of a better analogy than conversation?

Someone - I think it was Ghost - in an earlier thread - likened it to a musical jamming session, which I thought was a great analogy. (apologies if it was someone else)

[Beowulf]

It's less like a conversation .. and more like a very small , very contained flock :wink:

When you see flocks of starling, moving as one graceful coordinated entity I don't imagine some leader suddenly chirping "OK.. we've done the doughnut.. now to the Kidney.. and .. BREAK... superb, now a 360 plummet followed by an inverse umbrella..."

Dance should be less led.. and more felt. two people as one, each doing their own thing but the whole being greater than the sum of the individual parts.

Can't top the musical Jamming analogy though :respect:

[icebraker]

I was thinking about this last night, and I now wonder if the "dance as conversation" analogy is really helpful past a certain point?

Contiunous lead-and-follow connection is not like a conversation to me - the only other analogy that I can think of is, ahem, a bit rude. :wink:

Can anyone else think of a better analogy than conversation?
David can you define a bit rude ! i take it this is the style of your dance ?:cheers:

[David Bailey]

David can you define a bit rude ! i take it this is the style of your dance ?:cheers:
"Vertical expression of a horizontal desire", and no, I'm a good boy I am. :innocent:

[Mythical]

I always think of dance as a language, and the individual dances as a set of instructions.
Doesn't sound poetic at all, there must be a better way of putting it!

[MartinHarper]

On the theme of "a bit rude", I propose that dance is a power exchange.

[Lory]

I wrote a post on this a long time ago HERE post 81 (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85)and I still stand by what I said and the reactions of some of the following ladies, appear to also agree! :nice:

[Cruella]

"Vertical expression of a horizontal desire", and no, I'm a good boy I am. :innocent:
Sleeping?

[robd]

Less of a conversation with Cruella, more of a laughter track :rolleyes:

[Feelingpink]

...Can anyone else think of a better analogy than conversation?Being with your soulmate i.e. No conversation required. Feeling in the right place in the universe - feeling grounded. To be is more than enough.

[Cruella]

Less of a conversation with Cruella, more of a laughter track :rolleyes:

I have been known to have a dance without laughing!


OK, so maybe not with you though. :rolleyes:

[CJ]

I do see each dance as a conversation (and am going to think quite hard on how best to explain that.)

I see each lead as little more than an invitation. A good follow will, erm, follow:worthy: . A better follow will follow and give U something back:drool: . A legend will do what Lily does.:awe: :love: :swoon: wake up, CJ, erm what?!?!?!?

Oh, yes....
Within the conversation, there can be arguments. (NOT: I've led the first move, so U're bloody well gong to do it!!:angry: ) There is nothing -sexier is the wrong word, but- something about a follow who sees ur outstretched hand and ignores it (but tells U in no uncertain terms that she's seen it and is ignoring it.) It makes me, in dance terms, want to win her over: sometimes, by charm, sometimes by "force" (caveat: force with permission, in a dominant but the follow always as control kinda way)and sometimes by persistence.

These dances aren't a series of moves. They aren't even dances. They are conversations. Am trying not to give examples, because I would hope those that do it know they do it. And it is truly beautiful when it happens.:worthy: :flower:

Have just had a wistful think of those who do it, and some SP dances: and then thought about those tat weren't there that were missed...:sad:

[icebraker]

I do see each dance as a conversation (and am going to think quite hard on how best to explain that.)

I see each lead as little more than an invitation. A good follow will, erm, follow:worthy: . A better follow will follow and give U something back:drool: . A legend will do what Lily does.:awe: :love: :swoon: wake up, CJ, erm what?!?!?!?

Oh, yes....
Within the conversation, there can be arguments. (NOT: I've led the first move, so U're bloody well gong to do it!!:angry: ) There is nothing -sexier is the wrong word, but- something about a follow who sees ur outstretched hand and ignores it (but tells U in no uncertain terms that she's seen it and is ignoring it.) It makes me, in dance terms, want to win her over: sometimes, by charm, sometimes by "force" (caveat: force with permission, in a dominant but the follow always as control kinda way)and sometimes by persistence.

These dances aren't a series of moves. They aren't even dances. They are conversations. Am trying not to give examples, because I would hope those that do it know they do it. And it is truly beautiful when it happens.:worthy: :flower:

Have just had a wistful think of those who do it, and some SP dances: and then thought about those tat weren't there that were missed...:sad:A lot of follower's talk with there face expression and eye contact , 9 times out of 10 you no were thay are cumming from and if thay are enjoying it, OH and the dancing !!:whistle:

[Caro]

I was thinking about this last night, and I now wonder if the "dance as conversation" analogy is really helpful past a certain point?


you care to expand on that?

To me it feels like it should be a conversation, i.e. leader start talking, I respond, and possibly depending on what I've just said it will change his course of thoughts and he'll talk about something he hadn't planned. And so on. The tone of my voice can metaphorically be translated in the level of connection I'm giving...

Although it's always a delicate balance to know how much of the conversation I can take, from being silent to having a monologue... or shouting from time to time :devil:

[David Bailey]

you care to expand on that?
Don't get me wrong - it's a good analogy, with "vocabulary", "dialects", and so on.

But it's just that the analogy breaks down when you're trying to describe the "continuous connection" part of it, in that I don't think that's really conversation-like, it's more... well, I dunno really.

[Feelingpink]

D... it's just that the analogy breaks down when you're trying to describe the "continuous connection" part of it, in that I don't think that's really conversation-like, it's more... well, I dunno really.Is it that it is a conversation but we haven't invented enough suitable words yet ... like eskimos have oodles of words for snow :what: ... and we need more words for dancing connections (& probably a new thread?)

[CJ]

DJ,

in conversation terms: when we talk, the other listens (unless it's ESG). Whilst the other talk, we listen (unless it's Mick:wink: ). In both instances, there is full connection (until one swithes off and listens to the footie scores instead...).

[Yliander]

I was thinking about this last night, and I now wonder if the "dance as conversation" analogy is really helpful past a certain point?

Contiunous lead-and-follow connection is not like a conversation to me - the only other analogy that I can think of is, ahem, a bit rude. :wink:

Can anyone else think of a better analogy than conversation?

For me the analogy of dance as a conversation is a good one – a real conversation one where both parties are sharing and contributing is a good reflection of what takes place in a dance – the Lead leads/says something and then the follow follows/says something in return and so on and so forth sometimes the follow will respond in unexpected ways and sometimes a lead will take things in an unanticipated direction …. Which is all part of the joy of a good conversation

I also think that language is a good analogy - the moves, leads, signals etc are the words how you put them together is the sentences – and you use those words to communicate with your partner

Some conversations are stilted, some you just wish would go for ever and in between are all the other types

[Lory]

But it's just that the analogy breaks down when you're trying to describe the "continuous connection" part of it, in that I don't think that's really conversation-like, it's more... well, I dunno really.
Singing a duet with different Harmonies to compliment each other? How's that analogy? :)

[StokeBloke]

Singing a duet with different Harmonies to compliment each other? How's that analogy? :)
A perfect description of how I see it. I try to sing along to the music as a duet using everything with the exception of words. A conversation is a little my turn, your turn to sit too well with me as an anology, Lory's duet fits my train of thought far better :flower:

[TA Guy]

Not too keen on the "Jammin'" or "Duets" analogies, the reason being they do not imply any direct communication between the dancers. Those analogies could quite easily apply to two muggle dancers at the disco.
One of the main differences between two people muggle dancing and partner dancing is the constant flow of communication between the two partners. It's nice if the analogy can reflect that.

[straycat]

Not too keen on the "Jammin'" or "Duets" analogies, the reason being they do not imply any direct communication between the dancers.

Mmmm - interesting point, but in my experience, musicians generally remove their earplugs before they start, so they can hear each other :devil:

Seriously - a couple of musicians jamming together are constantly aware of what the other is doing, and each is constantly affected by, and adapting to what the the other
is doing, but all within the 'rules' of the musical form they're following. The connection is constant, two-way, and all-important.

Here's Ghost's original post on this one (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206552&postcount=13).

[TA Guy]

Seriously - a couple of musicians jamming together are constantly aware of what the other is doing, and each is constantly affected by, and adapting to what the the other
is doing, but all within the 'rules' of the musical form they're following. The connection is constant, two-way, and all-important.

Here's Ghost's original post on this one (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=206552&postcount=13).

I don't disagree with anything you'd said above....
Jammin' can have emotional, mental, and even physical communication at differing degrees. The same as dance and the same as a conversation. On that level there is not much to argue about.

I guess it depends what your trying to do with your analogy.
I mean, 'having a conversation' hardly implies movement. Neither does Jammin'. Conversation or Jammin' are prolly better analogies for 'the connection' rather than 'the dance'. I guess the movement and other bits are taken as read, so....

Is Jammin' a better analogy for the connection?
Maybe. I just feel the communication implied by Jammin' is very narrow. Or at least narrower than it needs to be to equate to a dance connection.

When I go out to dance, the music is obviously important, but the most important thing is my partner (I like to think I'm that way inclined anyway!). And there are other things that are included in the 'dance conversation'. Hence I prefer Conversation to Jammin'. It seems to me to imply a more accurate and wider range of communication....

To give a practical, and crass, example. Your dancing on the stage (or two musicians are boogieing around the stage). Your partner is about to move backwards and fall off. In a conversation, you'd communicate the danger by shouting 'watch out' and save her. In dance you'd communicate the danger by pulling her forward sharply and save her. In Jammin' you'd riff your guitar louder and watch as she fell off :) Jammin' doesn't have the information bandwidth (LOL) to cover floorcraft.
Daft example, but a dance connection includes wider communication, it's more than Jammin'.
(I guess, a dance connection is also arguably less communication rich than a 'conversation', but I prefer to think the skys the limit rather than be limited).

You could argue there might be something in Jammin' that you couldn't communicate using a dance connection, but were not saying a good analogy for Jammin' is a dance connection. A good analogy for Jammin' might be a conversation tho :)


It's very hard to describe what I mean. I'm floundering here, but I hope it makes sense :)

Put the word 'dance' in front of the analogy and see what image pops into your head.

Dance Conversation = two (good) dancers in a partner dance for me. (Or, yes, two blokes standing at the bar discussing dance, but that's by the by :))
Dance Jammin' = two muggle dancers off Austin Powers for me. :) Limited communications.

Bottom line is I don't disagree with either, I just prefer the conversation one.

[Martin]

I can see it as a conversation.

You open up with a couple of general chat moves, see what comes back and guide the conversation from there, responding to the answers you get and progress as shallow or as deep as your partner communicates is comfortable to her in your interaction.

Her knowledge of "language" will also dictate your level of interaction and what area of knowledge/dance you converse about.

[Daisy Chain]

Singing a duet with different Harmonies to compliment each other? How's that analogy? :)


...and then there are those men who are dancing to the beat of a different drum. :eek:

Daisy

(A Tuneless Little Flower)

[Gadget]

:shrug: dancing is like... well.. dancing :confused:

To me, it's not a conversation because there is a dominant and a submissive role, although both are contributing as much to the dance. In a conversation, there is/should be equality on both sides. And with the Jamming anology, it would only be true of the lead swapping roles. I think perhaps a singer (/lead instrument) for the lead and the follower assumes the roles of rest of the band(/orchistra) would be more accurate in my mind.... but that dosn't take into account how much 'listening' the lead does...

dunno: dancing is like dancing. I don't think there is a good paralell to the real world. :cool:

[straycat]

To me, it's not a conversation because there is a dominant and a submissive role, although both are contributing as much to the dance.

You never seen people dominate a conversation? An enormous number of conversations (alas) involve people dominating, or trying to dominate them. You can even watch that in action on some threads in this forum :devil:. OTOH, I personally, do not think of the dance leader / follower role being dominant / submissive. It is a highly cooperative partnership - and while I may be the main decision-maker, I'm absolutely not dominating it. If anything, I'm devoting a whole lot of my energy to making my partner shine.



In a conversation, there is/should be equality on both sides.

In my ideal dance, there is. Different roles does not equal inequality.



And with the Jamming anology, it would only be true of the lead swapping roles. I think perhaps a singer (/lead instrument) for the lead and the follower assumes the roles of rest of the band(/orchistra) would be more accurate in my mind.... but that dosn't take into account how much 'listening' the lead does...

Absolutely not. Jamming is a great analogy, because rather than swapping roles, the participants are complementing each other, responding to each other, teasing each other, daring each other, working together... all of these things which I love to happen in a dance.

[whitetiger1518]

In some ways I look at dances as Hypnotism (Hopefully Mutual ;)) with the help of Music - I have certainly felt like I had been spirited to Cloud 9 by some amazing leaders before now :drool:

Whitetiger

[LittleSal]

In some ways I look at dances as Hypnotism (Hopefully Mutual ;)) with the help of Music - I have certainly felt like I had been spirited to Cloud 9 by some amazing leaders before now :drool:

Whitetiger

I don't know if I would call it hypnotism but I know what you mean I have had some wonderful dances with great partners:waycool: and I get totally lost in the mutual conversation /expression of the dance and the music during that time and it does make you feel great........:grin:

[Trouble]

DJ,

in conversation terms: when we talk, the other listens (unless it's ESG). Whilst the other talk, we listen (unless it's Mick:wink: ). In both instances, there is full connection (until one swithes off and listens to the footie scores instead...).

Most conversations with men are like that. :D

[StokeBloke]

Most conversations with men are like that. :D
Ehh.. what... ohhhh... ummm..... if you like it, we'll get it. Umm, what did you say again? :na:

[Martin]

Most conversations with men are like that. :D


Sorry trouble, what was it you said again? :sick: The tele was on...........