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View Full Version : Who's the boss (or You Lead at My Speed)



robd
7th-February-2007, 09:05 PM
Been pulled to bits by a guy in the main room to a lovely slow track and told to stop doing my own thing he was to lead always



I can't say I didn't have a bad dance all night because I did,:sad: about 3, my back was jolted on one occasion,:tears: and ended up in a bit of a tussle on two occasions, :mad: with guy's who were insisting that it was a male lead dance and I was going to follow at there speed no matter what, (I don't think so boys) but, as the night had been advertised specifically as 'blues' I didn't have any problems telling the guy's the idea behind it, they probably thought I was a 'cheeky moo' but hayho!


First thing, this is not a dig at Fletch. I like dancing with Fletch and know she's certainly no hotshot. She has, however, provided the two quotes above that prompted me to start this thread (aided also by a conversation with Foxylady en route to Southport).

Secondly, I do not include moves e.g drops or lack of technique e.g painful yanker that may lead to injury for the follower in my comments below - they are aimed more at tempo and stylistic flourishes

Personally, I believe that a follower should always dance at the speed that the leader wishes to lead at. By asking a leader to dance or by accepting a request from a leader for a dance a follower should accept that she will follow that person's leading as her number one priority in the dance. For me that is the implicit assumption in the acceptance of a dance in a lead and follow based dance style. Accepting a dance then deciding you will follow on your terms breaks that 'contract' in my opinion. Thus, styling and musical interpretation may be added by the follower provided, and this is the crucial element, that it does not impair the leading. Lisa is a fantastic example of a follower who is able to add in some superb musical flourishes and interpretation but also remain sensitive to how a leader is receiving this and willing and able to seamlessly abort her independent styling should that be necessary.

I expect this thread may surprise followers who dance with me as I am very comfortable both with slower music and with allowing followers a lot of room to play and improvise but for men who aren't so comfortable then I don't think the cause is helped by unilaterally deciding you, as a follower, will decide the shape of the dance.

Robert

LMC
7th-February-2007, 09:25 PM
Leads are in control of the dance. Which means that it is easier, in some ways, for you to deal with a bouncy/yanky follower (double handed moves, close hold) or to keep someone on time, than for us, as followers, to deal with being yanked, bounced and feckin pretzelled through a blues track at top speed. So whilst I do agree with you Rob, I can see Fletch's points.

I will adjust the speed of my following (not the move) if the lead is clearly off beat - e.g. by slowing down/speeding up turns and spins, waiting a split second before I take an offered hand.

Except if it's a more challenging/musically complex track - in that case I don't immediately assume the lead is off beat if they are otherwise leading well: it might be that they are dancing to a different aspect of the music that I haven't picked up yet and I will try to listen out for what that is before I start changing the timing to suit the beat/'line' that I'm hearing!

From the first of Fletch's quotes, it sounds like the guy was way off beat if he was leading fast to a slow track. In that case, I *would* follow the lead on time because it is easier for a less experienced follower like me to "follow someone back on beat" on a faster track than a slower one. But I would switch off most of the connection in self-defence - just keep enough to follow the hand. But then I'm not very good at 'playing'/doing my own thing so I don't insist on it (although given the opportunity to practise by someone I'm enjoying dancing with, 'known' or not, then yes please!)

From the second quote, sounds like Fletch was being yanked or thrown around? In which case I go with ZW's "Please lead me more gently" line. What's good enough for her :worthy:

Kind and brave of Fletch to explain the principles behind blues. I'm afraid I'm not so patient and tolerant: if people new to blues would only watch a little then they should get the general idea. I would always be happy to help if asked (and had a nice dance with an everso nervous beginner on Friday who was smooth and gentle, and when he told me it was his first time (:rofl: ) I told him "avoid pretzels, keep it simple, slow and smooth, you're on the right track, you'll be fine with practice" :nice: ). But I'm too damn lazy, selfish and horrible to be bothered to volunteer information to leads who are patently not interested in making any effort to engage with blues music/style. Switching off all but the bare minimum of connection might make them think I'm a miserable cow (in fact, in one case I know it did :rofl: ) but if it means they won't ask me to dance again that's no great loss.

Clive Long
7th-February-2007, 09:34 PM
In a race against time before Killing Time can post it

The Bible on such matters IMO (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/dance/menlead.html)

Caro
7th-February-2007, 09:39 PM
Personally, I believe that a follower should always dance at the speed that the leader wishes to lead at. By asking a leader to dance or by accepting a request from a leader for a dance a follower should accept that she will follow that person's leading as her number one priority in the dance.
...
Thus, styling and musical interpretation may be added by the follower provided, and this is the crucial element, that it does not impair the leading.
...
I expect this thread may surprise followers who dance with me as I am very comfortable both with slower music and with allowing followers a lot of room to play and improvise but for men who aren't so comfortable then I don't think the cause is helped by unilaterally deciding you, as a follower, will decide the shape of the dance.


Interesting thread... I was about to post a thread on a similar topic. And a bit surprising coming from you indeed as you give the follow an awful lot of room to play and always seem to adapt...

So what if the lead dances all the track to the same speed even though the music suggests otherwise? How much are we (followers) allowed to slow down before we break the contract? I'll take an example... One thing I do very often if my lead doesn't slow down eventhough the music asks for it, is that I will slow down a return, taking 2 or even 4 times as long as the speed we're currently dancing at (can't say as the speed it's lead since you can't really lead at which speed I am turning - unless you force me to finish earlier but most leads don't do that). Then two things can happen:
- the lead realises I am actually marking the fact that the music has changed and he will remain to that new tempo I suggested to him until the music picks up again (I like that)
- the lead goes back to normal speed, and I usually follow that, even if I would have prefered a slower tempo.

So when exactly do I break the contract? How many returns (for example) am I allowed to slow down before it becomes annoying?

I'm in that strange place now that sometimes I feel I have a more interesting dance if I listen (a tad) more to the music than to the lead :blush: - my failing obviously being not being advanced enough yet to listen 100% to both, i.e. follow accurately and being musical (although from where I am now it seems difficult to be musical with some leads who won't allow any change of tempo or extended move). And I do wonder where is the line between following musically, and adding my own stuffs (from undisturbing footwork to extending moves to better fit the music and slowing down) and 'breaking the contract' as you said... :confused:

David Bailey
7th-February-2007, 10:04 PM
{ lots of eminently sensible stuff, with which I totally agree }
You realise that now you'll be tarred with the "Mr Control Freak" label?

And that everyone who dances with you from now on will assume you're a Dance Fascist, and that they'll have zero opportunity to interpret?

Not that anyone's prone to caricaturisation around here. Oh no....

Sparkles
7th-February-2007, 10:07 PM
everyone who dances with you from now on will assume you're a Dance Fascist, and that they'll have zero opportunity to interpret?

:yeah:
It's his way or the highway! :rolleyes:

David Bailey
7th-February-2007, 10:10 PM
In a race against time before Killing Time can post it

The Bible on such matters IMO (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/dance/menlead.html)

There's a discussion of that set of "rules" on the MJDA forum, from here onwards (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showthread.php?p=3072#post3072), which may be germane to this thread.

David Bailey
7th-February-2007, 10:14 PM
:yeah:
It's his way or the highway! :rolleyes:



Not that anyone's prone to caricaturisation around here. Oh no....

:whistle:

robd
7th-February-2007, 10:19 PM
You realise that now you'll be tarred with the "Mr Control Freak" label?

And that everyone who dances with you from now on will assume you're a Dance Fascist, and that they'll have zero opportunity to interpret?


Cool! I'll get a new sig "Women, know your place!" :D

More seriously, I think that experienced followers who are able to add musical interpretation can really help willing leaders to develop their leading skills. I know I have to thank a number of forumite followers for helping me in this way. But I do stand by my original point which is that it is up to the leader to lead and that includes dictating the tempo of the dance and how much (or little) musical interpretation is allowed within that structure.

Clive Long
7th-February-2007, 10:21 PM
There's a discussion of that set of "rules" on the MJDA forum, from here onwards (http://www.mjda.org/forum/showthread.php?p=3072#post3072), which may be germane to this thread.
I'm sure it's fascinating.

Too tired, too busy, too little to contribute to register.

You on a commission for each person who signs up?

robd
7th-February-2007, 10:21 PM
It's his way or the highway! :rolleyes:

Shouldn't you be making my dinner rather than spending time on the forum?


































































D'you think 65 miles enough of a safety buffer?

MartinHarper
7th-February-2007, 10:24 PM
Someone wise once said, to communicate well, "be correct in what you produce; be tolerant in what you receive". For an MJ follower, perfect obedience is correct. However, leaders should tolerate followers who are either unable to be obedient, or are unwilling to be obedient.

(similarly, for an MJ leader, there are things about leading that are correct: leads should be clear, firm, smooth, confident, etc. However, followers should tolerate leaders who are unable to give the perfect lead, as well as those who deliberately give unclear or misleading leads).

Or something.

David Bailey
7th-February-2007, 10:24 PM
You on a commission for each person who signs up?
Blimey, I'm not even on a commission in this place, let alone there :tears:

Anyway, to summarize my views on that document, it's at least half rubbish (e.g. the strength thing), but there are a couple of good points (e.g. avoiding confusion at the start of each dance).


For an MJ follower, perfect obedience is correct. .
Dance Fascist! Dance Fascist! :na: :innocent:

Ghost
7th-February-2007, 10:30 PM
I'm at the other end of the spectrum. I think it's a matter of how much adaptation is necessary and who's best suited to do it. In some cases the man may be more skilled at adapting, in others the woman, in others they both adapt a bit. It's a bit like having a conversation and voluntarily changing / limiting your vocabluary. I can insist on using long complicated words that someone else doesn't understand and get them to ask me repeatedly what I actually mean, but it's not going to make for a fluid conversation. Or they can use lots of jargon or references that I don't get and likewise it's going to be clunky.

Of course ideally you want to be dancing with someone where neither of you
needs to adapt at all and you can both just dance beautifully together. For everyone else though, I'd rather adapt and / or let the woman adapt, she may be much better at it than I am :flower: )

frodo
8th-February-2007, 12:36 AM
...By asking a leader to dance or by accepting a request from a leader for a dance a follower should accept that she will follow that person's leading as her number one priority in the dance. For me that is the implicit assumption in the acceptance of a dance in a lead and follow based dance style....
There is clearly an expection or implicit contract on who is the leader and who is the follower, on (an) initial dance(s).

Where I differ is the priority and rigidity of that within the dance.


If the lady effectively takes over the lead as far as choosing moves from scratch or spends half the time in shines the implicit contract is clearly violated.

Much less than that and I don't see the problem.


Negotiation doesn't necessarily end when someone say 'yes' to a dance.

Often a reasonable medium can be found between a lead and follows expectations and preferences, even if the followers first priority isn't following - for some leads it may be less important.

If an acceptable balance cannot be achieved later dances can be minimised.


Personally I'd prefer a lady follows to the degree she prefers. It gives me a better idea what I can adjust to make dancing together more enjoyable, and if an acceptable balance can be achieved.

spindr
8th-February-2007, 01:16 AM
Hmmm, there is (are?) more than one way to count the "beat" in some tracks.
What may sound to you like "1 and 2 and 3 and 4 and" may sound like "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8" to your partner. There's no way to tell if *either* of you is correct, without looking at the sheet music. Even an automated bpm counter doesn't check the musical notation, it does a best guess -- and sometimes finds an answer half, twice, etc. from the "real" speed.

Obviously, one way will be faster -- but it isn't necessarily incorrect. Exactly the same track can feel a completely different speed, simply by having a new drum beat overlayed -- but in reality the timing hasn't changed there's just an extra rhythm.

There's no telling if a lead won't double, or halve, or otherwise modify the timing in the future -- to create some contrast, and hopefully some interest, etc., etc. Ideally, a follower will let them do that :)

SpinDr

TA Guy
8th-February-2007, 01:40 AM
Short periods of musicality aside....and talking about Modern Jive....

I have always assumed that the beat sets the pace. As the leader, I do my best to keep to that beat and assume the follower will do her best too. I'm not to sure I actually do lead a 'speed'. That's the beats job.

Usually there isn't too much room for conflict in that scenario, unless one or other of the partners is 'off the beat'. Then, IMHO, they are in the wrong, whether they are the leader or follower.

So the question 'Should the follower always dance at the speed of the leader?' is answered 'No'. The follower, like the leader, should dance at the speed of the beat.

Musicality itself is not an excuse to mangle the beat. Dancing a whole song out of time is not musicality, it's either a different dance, or just incorrect.

Of course, short periods of musicality can include dancing at a different speed to the beat. No problem with that when initiated either by leader or follower.

StokeBloke
8th-February-2007, 02:31 AM
I am pretty new to all this but I am going to stick my head over the parapet and risk getting shot at by suggesting that the whole lead/follow thing is at times taken too far. The lead is in total control - the follow must just follow like a sheep seems plain daft to me. It's sort of being suggested that, by accepting some one's invitation to dance, you fore go any chance to participate in the creativity of the dancing. *cough*ollocks!

Isn't the whole point that you are dancing together? With input and style from both sides. Personally I like to dance with someone, not in spite of them. If they want to slow a move down a little, add a flourish here and there. Wriggle away on the end of my arm for a few beats - so much the better. Maybe I am a heathen. Maybe that's not the done thing. Maybe you'll all laugh up your sleeves at me in a "you'll learn new boy" sort of way... but I actually really like dancing with a creative follow.

All this talk of right and wrong. Or doing it such-and-such a way is incorrect. What's up with that? It's modern jive, not some ballroom discipline that's being scored from the sidelines by judges in black ties and score cards - the fun and enjoyment of the dance is way more important to me than the text book methodology.

This is only this newbie's opinion of course. You are free to disagree.... you'll be wrong, but you are free to disagree :D:D:D:D

Trousers
8th-February-2007, 08:41 AM
You realise that now you'll be tarred with the "Mr Control Freak" label? ....

Well I have been!

:grin:

Cruella
8th-February-2007, 08:46 AM
Shouldn't you be making my dinner rather than spending time on the forum?
:sick: :really: :what: Where shall I send the flowers?
Which is your nearest hospital?

David Bailey
8th-February-2007, 09:15 AM
The lead is in total control - the follow must just follow like a sheep seems plain daft to me.
Indeed - but I'm pretty sure no-one, even Mr Total Control Freak RobD ( :D ) (or me) is suggesting that.


It's sort of being suggested that, by accepting some one's invitation to dance, you fore go any chance to participate in the creativity of the dancing. *cough*ollocks!
:confused: Where's that being suggested then?


Isn't the whole point that you are dancing together? With input and style from both sides. Personally I like to dance with someone, not in spite of them. If they want to slow a move down a little, add a flourish here and there. Wriggle away on the end of my arm for a few beats - so much the better. Maybe I am a heathen. Maybe that's not the done thing. Maybe you'll all laugh up your sleeves at me in a "you'll learn new boy" sort of way... but I actually really like dancing with a creative follow.
Nope, to me that pretty much defines what good partner dance practice should involve.

But again, no-one's suggested any different. I've seen RobD dance, and he's a smooth, light dancer, pretzel / archie fetishes notwithstanding.


All this talk of right and wrong. Or doing it such-and-such a way is incorrect. What's up with that? It's modern jive, not some ballroom discipline that's being scored from the sidelines by judges in black ties and score cards - the fun and enjoyment of the dance is way more important to me than the text book methodology.
Especially because there isn't a textbook - if there were, we wouldn't need quite so much discussion...

Having said that, this is a dance forum (sort of), it's not unreasonable to talk about dance technique here, and there are some definite right / wrong ways to Do Leading - or so I'm told.

For example, it's wrong to yank your follower around, and it's right to have a clear lead.

MartinHarper
8th-February-2007, 09:25 AM
I think it's a matter of how much adaptation is necessary and who's best suited to do it.

In that perspective, would it be wrong for one partner to refuse to adapt to the other partner, even though they are capable of doing so?


the follow must just follow like a sheep - seems plain daft to me.

The point isn't the follower should exclusively follow. The point is that the follower should continuously follow. As a follower I'm permitted to do whatever I like as long as I'm still following.

Beowulf
8th-February-2007, 09:39 AM
One thing I do very often if my lead doesn't slow down even though the music asks for it, is that I will slow down a return, taking 2 or even 4 times as long as the speed we're currently dancing at (can't say as the speed it's lead since you can't really lead at which speed I am turning - unless you force me to finish earlier but most leads don't do that)

I have noticed this ;) I like it though.. if I've missed a particular musical phrase because I'm too busy concentrating on the moves or because I don't know the song that well, then I'd like a more experienced follower to "point that out to me" There's a difference to what Caro does, to hijacking/ back leading me. I never feel out of control dancing with Caro. I'm still the lead, but I respect her wishes to slow down and play.


Someone wise once said, to communicate well, "be correct in what you produce; be tolerant in what you receive"

That's a very valid point, I try to lead gently and clearly. And sometimes I don't lead a move as clearly as I like but most followers will say to me "if you make that a little more forcible" or "move your arm out quicker" or "further" etc so They tolerate my mistakes and in return I tolerate.. nay I enjoy their play.


If the lady effectively takes over the lead as far as choosing moves from scratch or spends half the time in shines the implicit contract is clearly violated.

Negotiation doesn't necessarily end when someone say 'yes' to a dance

Personally I'd prefer a lady follows to the degree she prefers. It gives me a better idea what I can adjust to make dancing together more enjoyable, and if an acceptable balance can be achieved.

:yeah:


it's wrong to yank your follower around, and it's right to have a clear lead.

I try to .

I enjoy being a leaf and "suggesting" moves to a follower but if they want to add a little musical interpretation or slow me down if I'm dancing to a wrong beat then that's fine. Where I do draw the line is where a follower will not allow me to be a lead and I physically have to fight to dance with her. There's only 1 dancer that does that .. and I tend to go into rag doll mode when she asks me.. I stand there while she throws me around by back leading. needless to say I tend to avoid dancing with her.

All things in moderation ;)

straycat
8th-February-2007, 09:53 AM
Short periods of musicality

'Short periods of musicality'? :confused:

Why would you dance musically just for short periods? If you're going to dance musically, dance musically.

"OK - fifteen seconds of musicality, starting NOW!"
...
...
one.min.ute.and.eigh.teen.point.four.sec.onds.of.p lodd.ing.mech.an.ic.al.y.to.the.beat.

"Thirty seconds of musicality, starting...." etc

Tiggerbabe
8th-February-2007, 09:54 AM
The lead is in total control - the follow must just follow like a sheep seems plain daft to me. It's sort of being suggested that, by accepting some one's invitation to dance, you fore go any chance to participate in the creativity of the dancing. *cough*ollocks!
Not at all, but if you want to "do your own thing", then you need to either clearly indicate that you are "taking over" the lead (I'd mention hijack but DJ might be listening ) or do your own thing within the space/time given to you by the lead. Connection is king if you have this then you have the key to creativity.

The follower, if adding styling and musical interpretation (within the lead) must also be very good at isolating the add-ons from the connection (to keep the dance smooth). e.g. you can add fancy footwork, rondes, body pops / rolls, kicks, etc. within the timing led by the leader if you isolate the connection from the styling.
If you need more time or support, you need to increase the connection (this will only work with a leader who listens to the connection) to 'hi-jack' temporarily to allow a more special flourish.

David Bailey
8th-February-2007, 10:01 AM
Not at all, but if you want to "do your own thing", then you need to either clearly indicate that you are "taking over" the lead (I'd mention hijack but DJ might be listening ) or do your own thing within the space/time given to you by the lead. Connection is king if you have this then you have the key to creativity.
Actually, I completely agree with this.

What winds me up is when someone (typically an early intermediate) thinks it's cool to grab the lead, without understanding the clearly indicate bits.

If you can clearly indicate the transfer of lead, clearly lead me, and clearly indicate the transfer back, and if it's done naturally and spontaneously, I have no problems with that.

But as I reckon there are about 6 women MJ dancers in the country who can do this, forgive me if I seem a little skeptical as to how useful this is.

Following is difficult - the more so because it's not even taught at most MJ classes. Leading is just as difficult, but at least some aspects of it get taught.

straycat
8th-February-2007, 10:18 AM
So many leading styles, so many following styles...

What I tend to do: establish, to the best of my ability, a leading style which suits my partner, with as good a connection as we can get (this can, with unfamiliar partners, take a little experimenting to get right)

With the right kind of connection (able to get decent tension compression) I have a lot of flexibility in my lead, and the follower can quite happily extend some moves, slow down returns etc as Caro describes - and experienced followers can generally pick up on the fact that my lead allows this (ideally :whistle:). In a really good dance, the whole process is completely instinctive on both sides, and you play off each other, and off the music.

It becomes possible to have dances where leader and follower are following different completely parts of the music, but still maintaining that connection - when you're doing this, the leader can't be constantly dictating speed to the follower.

Another side is that I love to play with timing. A lot. Some followers like this more'n others - and sometimes I might be leading my partner with radically different timing to how I'm moving myself. This does get tricky - and if you're doing this, the follower generally requires more autonomy, and has to be free to change timing on her own if need be.
Not sure I've described this all that well - it can be pretty hard to articulate. Oh well.

I don't think there's any clear answer to this. So much depends on the style of the leader - and it's one thing for a follower to play with timing when the lead is encouraging it, and quite another for her to disruptively or abruptly go against a less permissive lead...
For me personally, allowing both parties to play with timing adds a huge dimension to the dance, and one that I would very much miss if it wasn't there.

robd
8th-February-2007, 10:22 AM
So much depends on the style of the leader - and it's one thing for a follower to play with timing when the lead is encouraging it, and quite another for her to disruptively or abruptly go against a less permissive lead...


The point I was trying to make originally perfectly expressed.

Thanks Straycat. I would rep you but there's too much snow on the ground.....

straycat
8th-February-2007, 10:25 AM
The point I was trying to make originally perfectly expressed.

Thanks Straycat. I would rep you but there's too much snow on the ground.....

Come up here and say that (we've barely got any snow at all :tears:)

TA Guy
8th-February-2007, 10:26 AM
'Short periods of musicality'? :confused:

Why would you dance musically just for short periods? If you're going to dance musically, dance musically.

"OK - fifteen seconds of musicality, starting NOW!"
...
...
one.min.ute.and.eigh.teen.point.four.sec.onds.of.p lodd.ing.mech.an.ic.al.y.to.the.beat.

"Thirty seconds of musicality, starting...." etc

I'm not talking about musicality as a whole, but the musicality of dancing to an alternative beat to the main one. I use the phase 'short period' to differentiate between that and dancing the whole song to an alternative beat.


Did you really think I was suggesting 15 seconds of musicality there... and twenty seconds here ??? Just messin' with me, right? :)

Caro
8th-February-2007, 10:44 AM
Not at all, but if you want to "do your own thing", then you need to either clearly indicate that you are "taking over" the lead (I'd mention hijack but DJ might be listening ) or do your own thing within the space/time given to you by the lead. Connection is king if you have this then you have the key to creativity.


I understand your point TB and it's true that in MJ we always talk about 'highjacking' and that requires the follow to make it very clear to the leader that she is taking over for a while, before she also clearly hands the lead over back to the guy.

However personnally I don't like doing that (it's like, 'hey look at me I'm going to show off right now you're in for a treat' sort of thing :blush: :sick: ). I guess it's the influence of west coast swing, where I've never heard the term 'highjacking' despite the fact that the lady can quite often do her own thing for a couple of beats - or bars. What happens if anything is that although the connection is maintained, it is somewhat reduced, and what indicates the lead that I am ready for a new pattern (i.e. for him to lead me again) is actually me re-establishing a higher level of connection (tension). Or so I understand.
If not reduced, it will still be altered, for example using my free hand and placing it on the lead's hip, wrist or wherever. I can also think of an example when I will actually increase the connection - i.e. if I need support for example if I am trying to lean away from my partner at the end of the slot. And I indicate to my lead that I am done by re-establising the 'normal' or basic level of connection. So basically the lead responds to variations I initiate in the level of connection... creating a sort of 'elastic' connection.
Easier said than done obviously... (from both sides :whistle: )

Franck
8th-February-2007, 10:54 AM
What happens if anything is that although the connection is maintained, it is somewhat reduced, and what indicates the lead that I am ready for a new pattern (i.e. for him to lead me again) is actually me re-establishing a higher level of connection (tension). Or so I understand.
If not reduced, it will still be altered, for example using my free hand and placing it on the lead's hip, wrist or wherever. I can also think of an example when I will actually increase the connection - i.e. if I need support for example if I am trying to lean away from my partner at the end of the slot. And I indicate to my lead that I am done by re-establising the 'normal' or basic level of connection. So basically the lead responds to variations I initiate in the level of connection... creating a sort of 'elastic' connection.
Easier said than done obviously... (from both sides :whistle: )This is exactly what Tiggerbabe was talking about. Indicating to your partner that you need time or space by changing the intensity of the connection is what tiggerbabe referred to as
you need to either clearly indicate that you are "taking over" the lead (I'd mention hijack but DJ might be listening ) or do your own thing within the space/time given to you by the lead. Connection is king if you have this then you have the key to creativity.When you are changing the nature of the connection, you are giving a signal to the leader that you are hi-jacking the connection. The subtlety of the signal will depend on the ability of the leader to listen.
By placing your hand on his shoulder or other body part, you are creating a new connection point (or a new frame), but in any event, you are hi-jacking the connection to do your own thing.

Leaders have to do that already if they want to change the tempo of the dance (e.g. syncopate, or slow down dramatically), they should change (typically increase) the intensity of the connection to communicate to their partner the change ahead of the lead.
I believe that Followers should learn similar skills (and Leaders should learn to notice those subtle changes) to be able to add more creativity to the dance.

If either (lead or follow) is shouting and the other is not listening, then both will have a less that satisfactory dance :sad:

Caro
8th-February-2007, 11:04 AM
This is exactly what Tiggerbabe was talking about. Indicating to your partner that you need time or space by changing the intensity of the connection is what tiggerbabe referred to as When you are changing the nature of the connection, you are giving a signal to the leader that you are hi-jacking the connection. The subtlety of the signal will depend on the ability of the leader to listen.


Indeed. May be I hadn't totally understood what TB was saying since on the few occasions that I have been thaught or shown highjacking in an MJ environmnent, I was told that the follow needs to (usually dramatically for the lead to realise :whistle: ) increase the connection, i.e. 'block' the leader from doing what he was planning on doing next. And physically give the lead back by dramatically reducing connection before re-establishing it (which gives a hand 'pop' or 'bounce' sort of thing that I don't like).


If either (lead or follow) is shouting and the other is not listening, then both will have a less that satisfactory dance :sad:

:yeah: :sad:

straycat
8th-February-2007, 01:18 PM
I'm not talking about musicality as a whole, but the musicality of dancing to an alternative beat to the main one. I use the phase 'short period' to differentiate between that and dancing the whole song to an alternative beat.


Did you really think I was suggesting 15 seconds of musicality there... and twenty seconds here ??? Just messin' with me, right? :)
Er - sure - yeah - 'course I was :innocent:

There's a common thing which a lot of leaders do, probably in a lot of dances (I've come across it in MJ and Lindy, and I certainly used to do it - after someone picked up on it, I had to work pretty hard to iron it out of my dancing) - that's the tendency to establish connection when you think you're about to need it (to actively lead part of a move) - as opposed to maintainng it consistently throughout a move, even though it's more of a passive thing much of the time.

I don't tend to change the timing for a short section then go back to normal. If I'm messing with timing, I'll likely be doing it continually through the whole dance, and my lead needs to convey that. I don't just think to myself: "I'll double-time this bit" - it's a much more continual and instinctive process than that.

Daisy Chain
8th-February-2007, 01:27 PM
I will adjust the speed of my following (not the move) if the lead is clearly off beat - e.g. by slowing down/speeding up turns and spins, waiting a split second before I take an offered hand.




I do this. It sometimes helps to get the leader on the beat or to slow down if it's a slow track.

However, for those leaders who are rhythmically challenged, I resort to damage limitation ie walking through the moves trying to anticipate their speed with floppy arms. Less injuries this way. However, it feels so weird not dancing to the music - how do they do it?

Daisy

(A Rhythmic Little Flower)

Beowulf
8th-February-2007, 01:57 PM
However, it feels so weird not dancing to the music - how do they do it?

We dance to the music in our heads.. unfortunately the music that's predominantly in my head is a waltz version of a Steve Reichs piece being played by a polka band on a dodgy warped record playing on an old battery powered record player that is sorely in need of a new battery. :blush:

it's a skill that comes from many years of practice.. and is only of any real use on the desert planet of Arrakis ;) stops the worms getting you :)

Beo
(An arrhythmical little wulf)

StokeBloke
8th-February-2007, 03:40 PM
It's sort of being suggested that, by accepting some one's invitation to dance, you fore go any chance to participate in the creativity of the dancing. *cough*ollocks!

:confused: Where's that being suggested then?

By asking a leader to dance or by accepting a request from a leader for a dance a follower should accept that she will follow that person's leading as her number one priority in the dance. For me that is the implicit assumption in the acceptance of a dance in a lead and follow based dance style

I'm not sure if that will format properly on the page David... but there is where I felt that was being suggested. I can only speak personally, but by asking someone for a dance I do not assume that they have agreed to anything, other than to walk out onto the dance floor with me and give me the next few minutes so we can dance. Maybe I am not enough of an egomaniac for Ceroc :whistle: Maybe I am still wet behind the ears. But there seems to be far too much 'us' and 'them' in dance discussion. Partner dancing is a symbiotic relationship after all.

The other evening I had the most amazing dance with Dai :love: we swapped lead/follow a few times as we danced and it was AWESOME. People who refuse to play are missing a lot of fun :D

To my mind, this thread actually sits quite well with the 'Is dancing like a conversation?' thread.

Ghost
8th-February-2007, 04:35 PM
In that perspective, would it be wrong for one partner to refuse to adapt to the other partner, even though they are capable of doing so?
I wouldn't go quite so far as "wrong". But if a lady's wanted to dance at a certain speed (and I've been aware of it :blush: ) then I've danced at that speed even if I'd have preferred to dance at a different speed.

I think it's trickier as a lead to not lead at the same speed they want to follow at anyway. If you're both trying to dance at different speeds then you risk hurting each other, not to mention making for a very strange dance.

I think if follows were expected to match the guys speed, then they'd have to be given much more freedom to say "no" to invitations to dance.

Freya
8th-February-2007, 05:23 PM
There are several girls I've watched dance up here that dance at their own speed regardless of the music and the lead! Apparently it's really infuriating to lead them!!!!:wink:

I think Rob is right up to a point! The lead Should set the speed of the dance. If he is going to be abe to lead properly then he needs to be able to feel the music his way! However a good lead allows the follow room to express herself by leaving her room to play and embelish. At these points then the follower should be allowed to chose her own speed either to slow it down, speed it up or here a little florish in the music! Hi-jacking is something completely different and when I do it i only do with people who I'm messing about with!

I also think that with some beginners it is necessary to sometimes give them feedback either through slowing down a turn or pauses.

Not sure I'm explaining myself very well!

killingtime
8th-February-2007, 05:51 PM
In a race against time before Killing Time can post it

The Bible on such matters IMO (http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/dance/menlead.html)

It was about a day before I posted on this thread. I think you won :D. That's more about why guys lead though and if a woman is leading a man then he should pay attention to the same things that any female follow should. Gender isn't important for the roles here only that people do what is required of the role :D.


There are several girls I've watched dance up here that dance at their own speed regardless of the music and the lead! Apparently it's really infuriating to lead them!!!!:wink:

If a woman seems resistant to speeding up it might be a health thing so I'm happy to slow down to meet them (though I will try speeding them up at the beginning unless they tell me to keep it slow). Sometimes women rush like crazy and I'd prefer to take it slow it becomes difficult to lead them because generally they are ignoring your lead. They break the connection to be somewhere else and they aren't listening to anything that is being said in the lead.

However a turn or such is often more an invitation if a woman wants to take twice as long to get there then she can. As DJ said, I think, in another thread I'm in no rush to get anywhere.

NZ Monkey
8th-February-2007, 06:06 PM
Not at all, but if you want to "do your own thing", then you need to either clearly indicate that you are "taking over" the lead (I'd mention hijack but DJ might be listening ) or do your own thing within the space/time given to you by the lead. Connection is king if you have this then you have the key to creativity.

The follower, if adding styling and musical interpretation (within the lead) must also be very good at isolating the add-ons from the connection (to keep the dance smooth). e.g. you can add fancy footwork, rondes, body pops / rolls, kicks, etc. within the timing led by the leader if you isolate the connection from the styling.
If you need more time or support, you need to increase the connection (this will only work with a leader who listens to the connection) to 'hi-jack' temporarily to allow a more special flourish.:yeah:

I quite like having my followers playing with the music, it gives me a break to some extent and makes the dance feel a little more like a real partnership. I think all leaders should follow to some extent in their role as a leader to accommodate this.

A pet peeve of mine though is followers who do their own thing to the music, but have a lousy connection to begin with. You can lead them when they’re behaving themselves through most things (although I’ve found that most tend to anticipate if you aren’t leading anything for whatever reason) but they never let you know when it’s time to give them room. Consequently I wind up being that guy who ‘’pulls them through move after move’’ and get the associated dirty looks because I couldn’t tell what they wanted to do in time.

Perhaps it isn’t a co-incidence that most of the women I enjoy giving space to play with also lead…..?

David Bailey
8th-February-2007, 08:34 PM
I'm not sure if that will format properly on the page David... but there is where I felt that was being suggested.
I think you're reading way waaaay too much into Rob's statement there.


I can only speak personally, but by asking someone for a dance I do not assume that they have agreed to anything, other than to walk out onto the dance floor with me and give me the next few minutes so we can dance. Maybe I am not enough of an egomaniac for Ceroc :whistle: Maybe I am still wet behind the ears. But there seems to be far too much 'us' and 'them' in dance discussion. Partner dancing is a symbiotic relationship after all.
Indeed, and no-one's suggested otherwise. I think, again, you're maybe missing the subtleties.

Personally, I've only become much more interested in lead-and-follow, and in how difficult the whole thing really is, in the past 2-3 years; for the first 10+ years of MJ-ing, I just went with the flow.

But, just because I'm now more firm in my ideas about what a great dance involves, doesn't (I hope) make me a worse dancer, or more importantly make dancing with me less fun. But it should mean that my lead is as clear as I can make it, with less ambiguity. I'd hope that followers would also aim to improve their following skills.


The other evening I had the most amazing dance with Dai :love: we swapped lead/follow a few times as we danced and it was AWESOME. People who refuse to play are missing a lot of fun :D
:rolleyes:

Again, you're making a vast set of assumptions, that people who don't do "X" aren't having fun - whether "X" is aerials, drops, spins, competitions, and now hijacking, you name it.

"Playing" is, frankly, woefully imprecise - do you mean interpretation? Improvisation? Or what?

Some of the best MJ follower dancers around aren't keen on excessive improvising - case in point, Lily B. Are you seriously telling me she's "missing a lot of fun"?. And if so, where do you want me to send the wreath? :devil:

I've seen RobD dance - he's good, he stood out even at Utopia last month for example. I doubt most women would call him "no fun" or a "control freak".

jive-vee
8th-February-2007, 09:11 PM
I've not had that many dances with RobD but the ones I had at Southport were good fun and he's certainly not a control freak. I've not been dancing all that long compared to some people on here but I'd say the main thing is about give and take - you need to find a balance with your partner whether that be with regard to connection, improvising, speed, musicality whatever, and a good way to achieve that is through eye contact. I don't mean staring intensely at one another throughout but the odd glance and smile or whatever can help you read a bit about how your partner's finding the dance and give you both an idea of whether you need to change anything.

Erm not sure if that makes all that much sense haha, I know what I'm trying to say but if anyone can help me out here?!...:confused:

SeriouslyAddicted
8th-February-2007, 10:23 PM
I too haven't been dancing all that long but am getting more confident at putting extra wiggles in etc, although I would only really "mess around" with someone that I was confident dancing with and who knows me well. I imagine that as a relatively novice leader it could be very off putting if the follower was putting in lots of styling and musical interpretation. As someone who has only just started leading it takes all my concentration just to remember the moves and to lead them well without worrying about musical interpretation.

TA Guy
8th-February-2007, 10:57 PM
There's a common thing which a lot of leaders do, probably in a lot of dances (I've come across it in MJ and Lindy, and I certainly used to do it - after someone picked up on it, I had to work pretty hard to iron it out of my dancing) - that's the tendency to establish connection when you think you're about to need it (to actively lead part of a move) - as opposed to maintainng it consistently throughout a move, even though it's more of a passive thing much of the time.


Mmmm, possibly guilty here.
I do, usually with fast songs, from time to time, throw in a short period of slower dancing, not at the right speed. I find this needs 'more' in the connection. To use the 'conversation' analogy; I'm changing the subject, so pay attention. LOL.

Clive Long
8th-February-2007, 11:51 PM
.... you need to either clearly indicate that you are "taking over" the lead (I'd mention hijack but DJ might be listening ) ... .
Better than that, whisper the word "sabotage" into CeeCee's ear. I know she is desparate to contribute to this thread and just needs a little encouragement .... :whistle:



Wedge

MartinHarper
9th-February-2007, 01:20 AM
The other evening I had the most amazing dance with Dai :love: we swapped lead/follow a few times as we danced and it was AWESOME.

The thing is, such dance scraps work better if the current leader leads clearly and the current follower follows correctly. This reduces problems of "who's leading?", so you get cleaner transfers.

Gadget
9th-February-2007, 02:02 PM
I think that if you are constantly having to put effort into a lead in order to lead a follower, then it can feel like you are being very dominant and controlling - that you can't really relax and let up to give the follower space because it would feel like you were abandoning them.

I've found that the same dominance can happen if you've got an excelent follower: it's a "wooo - look how responsive they are..." and I am reveling in it so much that I forget to give them space. :blush:

I think that the only reason that a follower would sabotage or take control of a dance is if I wasn't paying enough attention to the music and giving her enough room to play. I am in charge: it's a lead and follow dance and I'm leading. If the follower thinks I'm not leading properly or not listening to the music or not giving them what they need to enjoy the dance, then they will probably show this through the connection and I can take steps to rectify it. It may be a dictatorship, but that dosn't mean you don't listen to your people.

There's a good thread somewhere with relevance to this...Dancing by numbers (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5069) I think is it... orBack-leading?? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4871) (and Following? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=869) is also quite interesting)

straycat
9th-February-2007, 02:41 PM
I think that if you are constantly having to put effort into a lead in order to lead a follower, then it can feel like you are being very dominant and controlling - that you can't really relax and let up to give the follower space because it would feel like you were abandoning them.


Interesting... these days, when I find a follower who's quite resistent to my lead, I will often do the opposite of what one might expect, and I'll lighten my lead further. I do this for a few reasons:


Self-preservation - I have a fairly dicey back, and I prefer to keep it free of the kind of stresses a heavy following style can put on it
Using a lot of force with a heavy follower can actually make them more resistant rather than less.
Lightening the lead will quite often mean the follower has to focus a bit more on getting the follow right - which they wouldn't need to do with a less subtle lead.


If you feel that giving space equates to 'abandoning' them - try the obvious - do it in small ways to begin with, and see how well they enjoy it. If it goes well, expand on that. If it doesn't, try other things instead.



I think that the only reason that a follower would sabotage or take control of a dance is if I wasn't paying enough attention to the music and giving her enough room to play.

Some ladies just love to play, and given a good track, if you don't give them opportunities, they'll just go ahead and start without you :whistle: Personally, if they do it well, I don't mind that in the slighest. Best thing you can do in any case is either join in, or act as a support (a lot of great followers' improvisations rely on having good 'passive' support from the lead).